Starting from the understanding of form and emptiness, and emptiness is form, and form is form, and emptiness is emptiness. And our procedure to the goal, we came pretty far away from original starting point. It is necessary right now to reflect what we have been studying.

In personal instruction, someone expressed her feeling when he -- when she saw some animal devouring some animal. And she became very angry with the animal who was devouring another, weak one. If you don't see, actually see, that sight, it doesn't matter. It is someone's problem [laughs]. But once you see, it is your problem, you know, not the animal's problem, or the problem of just the animal world. But when I thought -- in the same time when I listened to her, I thought: there is her world, as well as animal's world, and each world there is Buddha. For us there is Shakyamuni Buddha; for animals I don't know, [laughter] what Buddha there is. But actually animals are practicing so hard in their own way [laughs].

You may say it may be a great rescue for the weak if you killed the animal all at once, and let them eat quicker, rather than, you know, remain the weaker for a long time in pain and suffering. But suppose that the small animal were to be Bodhisattva who is practicing his way. What does he say? "Don't watch me. I am very serious [laughter]. I am practicing my way with my whole and body. Don't watch me. Go away. I'm practicing, you know, our way. This is my world. I have teacher called So-and-so Buddha" [laughs, laughter].

That will be what he will say, I think. So, you know, when you understand how you practice your way with your whole body and mind, you will understand various practices -- various way of practice, and many Buddhas. Not only seventy-thousands of Buddhas, but innumerable Buddhas will be in innumerable worlds. That is very true. If you read the scripture in which Shakyamuni Buddha's practiced was written -- Shakyamuni Buddha's practice, in his former lives as a Bodhisattvas, that is not just a story at all. That is actually what we are seeing right now in this world. Actually someone saw it and told me about it. So only when we understand our way, each world will be -- each animals in each world, will be saved all at once, at the same time - including Shakyamuni Buddha. In this way we should understand our way.

This kind of understanding is "form is emptiness and emptiness is form." The animal is form, actually, you may say. "Form -- that is form -- that is only an animal, only a cat," you may say. But actually if you understand what is cat through and through, that is emptiness itself from which various teaching comes from, and our practice follows.

So this teaching of form of -- "form is emptiness and emptiness is form" is not just verbal teaching which was told by Buddha. It is something more than that. Actually this teaching is the mother of Shakyamuni Buddha. You may say Shakyamuni Buddha told us this -- this sutra, but actually it is not so. If you understand the true meaning of the scripture, this teaching, this Dharma of Prajna Paramita Sutra or Hridaya Sutra is the mother of Shakyamuni Buddha. Shakyamuni Buddha came out from this sutra. Not only Shakyamuni Buddha: many and many Buddhas comes out from it.

If form is emptiness -- various form is emptiness, and from emptiness various teachings will appear. If -- when you understand the teaching in this way, the enlightenment is first or emptiness is first. Emptiness is mother of everything, and the teaching is -- teaching, or Buddha, is next. Not next but, teaching or Shakyamuni Buddha comes out from the teaching or the enlightenment or the emptiness. So emptiness is first and Buddha is second.

Usually when you understand the teaching is something which was told by Buddha, that is not direct enough. And this is quite usual understanding. But when you understand that Buddha or teaching was told by -- the mother of the teaching or Shakyamuni Buddha is the emptiness, or enlightenment, then you will find out innumerable worlds which will be come out -- which will come out from the enlightenment. And this enlightenment actually exists in each world on each moment. When you practice zazen, there is this enlightenment which is mother of everything.

So when you reach this kind of understanding, you will find out the meaning of the teaching or practice in quite different way. Before, Shakyamuni Buddha was someone who was born three thousand years ago. The teaching was something which was told by Buddha. But now, Shakyamuni Buddha, his mother was the practice, or enlightenment. You can say practice, or enlightenment, in both ways, because it is one: where there is practice, there is enlightenment.

So you may say the practice is the mother of the Buddhas, all the Buddhas. And your practice is the mother of all beings, and all the worlds and people who live in all the worlds. That is why we say "If one attains enlightenment in its true sense, that is that all sentient beings' enlightenment." Do you understand? [laughs] I'm -- I am not involved in some mystical [laughs] thought. I'm telling you actual fact.

So, in our practice, enlightenment and practice should be one, should not be two. It is not after you practice our way that you attain enlightenment. That is wrong understanding. If that is so, how can a frog attain enlightenment [laughs]?

Did you see the picture done by Sengai Osho? Frog was sitting like this, and he says [laughs] "If zazen makes us Buddha [laughs] -- if zazen makes us Buddha [laughter] -- [aside] you might be the commentary to the picture [laughter]. It is very interesting [laughter], the more you think about it. Frog is facing many things [laughter].

If zazen made you attain -- if zazen makes you a Buddha, he may say, "I am practicing zazen [laughter]. Why can't be -- what can I -- why can I attain -- why is it impossible to attain enlightenment for me? I'm practicing zazen [laughs] since I was born [laughter], even before I was born, in the small egg [laughter] for many years."

For me, you know, if zazen is so important -- just to practice zazen is so important, we are practicing zazen in your -- in our mother's [laughs] womb for ten months [laughter] -- perfect form [laughter]. So we should be embryo Buddha [laughter]. But actually we are embryo Buddha [laughs], actually it is so. You may take it in this way.

But another interpretation will be like this: if, you know, even though, you know, you practice zazen, that zazen is just cross-legged posture, and to kill time [laughs], that will not work like my zazen. You may understand in that way. And frog will tell -- tell you in that way.

But actually, you know, my understanding is yes, you have attained it, you have attained enlightenment. You are practicing so hard. And you will practice your way in various way. Now you are sitting on the stone, but suddenly you will have a big, big practice. When a snake comes [laughter], you will be devoured by snake. You are swallowed up, but you -- you will not move. You let the snake devour you, that is your practice [laughter]. And you have your teacher in your world kingdom. That is your teacher. I will understand in that way.

And if someone say, "You are useless," "Yes I may be. Most of the time I -- I am useless, because I am not studying our way so hard [laughs]." When we are lazy, ignoring our practice which we should not, then I must be ashamed of myself. So even a frog studies their way very hard. So we human beings mostly ashamed of my - ourselves, just seeking to attain [laughs] some -- something good only, avoiding something -- bad experience. This is not our practice, this is not Bodhisattva's way.

When we are prepared for it, there is our world, our independent world. Even Buddha cannot -- Shakyamuni Buddha cannot see through our practice, because our practice is independent practice. We live in our world, our kingdom. Continuing this kind of practice innumerable time, we will meet some day with Shakyamuni Buddha who attained enlightenment, perfect enlightenment. Even though we do not meet him we -- we should be very grateful for him who for direct us the true way of study the way. So as long as we have -- we know who is our mother, there is nothing to be afraid of, there is nothing to worry. This is our belief in emptiness. Did you understand?

During sesshin I think you have been making very good effort and you have attained -- what you have attained is great. There is no wonder in this point. And you came here, so far away from your home, and you are right now listening to something quite different a teaching you ever have heard. And have (?) you been encouraged by your sincere effort. My understanding of our way also improved a lot by your actual feeling, expressed fully, whether you are aware of it or not. When I am practicing with you, my understanding of our way becoming deeper and deeper, more actual and more active than ever. This kind of experience is possible only when we practice our way in this country, where people have not much preconceived ideas about our way. You have no preconceived idea, so for you, what you see and hear, besides my lecture, or Maezumi Sensei's lecture, it is quite, you know -- you respond -- your response is quite genuine. So there I can see, from your understanding, the true interpretation of our practice. So I see our way in your reactions to the teaching, in your reactions to the things you hear, you see, in Tassajara. This is my great privilege.

The main point of my lecture this afternoon is usually, when we say practice or teaching, it is -- teaching is the guidance, or practice, and by practice, you will attain enlightenment. This is quite usual order. This is just limited. This practice path is limited in our human world. But true practice, handed down to us from Buddha is not the same way. Even before Buddha our teaching was true. And our teaching will be immortal. So our teaching or -- is something which exists -- which actually exists in everywhere. And that teaching is not just teaching which was told by someone. It is -- before teaching there is teaching. If -- the teaching before it is told what it is, it is something more than that. So we call it original enlightenment or emptiness.

So this kind of -- this kind of connotation of teaching is wider and deeper than the teaching which is the guidance of the practice. Of course guidance of practice is teaching, but true teaching is -- is more than that. So teaching is itself -- should be enlightenment itself which is mother of the teaching. And Buddha who told us the teaching is -- must have -- have born from the teaching, from this kind of teaching, from the enlightenment, from Dharma.

So for us, Dharma is first, or enlightenment is first, and Buddha, and that Buddha will tell us some teaching. So teaching is the third. In this model, we can arrange our ideas: enlightenment, Buddha. From enlightenment, Buddha comes out. And Buddha tell us teaching. And if you are one of the Buddhas, you will -- what you do is teaching, what you do is practice. So enlightenment is first and practice follows (one word unclear). So this is just open (?), you know.

You may think after you practice you will attain enlightenment, but that enlightenment -- the meaning of the enlightenment is quite different -- meaning of practice is quite different from the true understanding of enlightenment and practice. This much understanding, even in intellectually is necessary, or else you cannot practice Buddhism in its true sense.

Our practice is for yourself and for others too. And understanding of your practice will lead you (to) understanding of the animal's practice. Understanding of your world will lead to the understanding of the animal's world -- life. So there is no -- you cannot compare the meaning of practice and enlightenment to the usual understanding of practice and enlightenment.

It is not matter of eggs first or hen first [laughs], enlightenment is first or practice is first. It is not a matter of which is first. The understanding -- it is the depth of understanding, it is the directness of the -- difference of the directness of the understanding.

[Question from someone in the assembly?]

Well, I think when you are listening to me [laughs] you may feel you understood it [laughs], but you know, when you go home you will be involved in quite usual way of understanding. So be careful [laughs, laughter] not to be involved in a stupid understanding of life. Someone said the kindness in here is quite different from the kindness in the city. That is I think very true. Our way of understanding is quite different [laughs]. We do not say anything which we do not firmly believe in it [laughs]. We do not say. We only say what we are believe in, so that is why you feel that you have understood it [laughs, laughter]. Do you see?

But why is it not possible, you know, for you to understand what we have understood? Why? The reason is quite simple: because we do not look around [laughs]. We see something directly, that's all. We do not say this is good or bad. It may be better to go to San Francisco in such a hot day . We have no such idea. Or we have no idea of, you know, whether you are sleeping or listening to me, I don't mind [laughs, laughter] at all!

I am always -- I always conscious (?) you know, in some way, and I am always encouraging myself, at the same time I am encouraging yourselves. We -- I don't look around when I am talking to you, in my mind there is nothing. Here there is complete, you know, world. This is the world, real world. When this world become real world, every world is possible to become real.

It is not matter of what kind of worlds exist somewhere, besides this world. The point is whether this world is real world or not. The point is whether our practice is real practice or not is the point, do you see? When our practice is real, that is our world, there is Shakyamuni Buddha who is taking care of us. This is the complete world. Moment after moment we have to have complete world; that is "form is emptiness." Because it is complete that is emptiness. But it actually exists here, that is form. Do you understand? I think so [laughs].

This is the -- this is the only difference, from usual understanding of way -- understanding of the way. It is not a matter of which scripture is supreme scripture, or which religion is best religion. Even though the simple religion, if it is, you know -- if one devote himself to the religion that is true religion.

In our practice this point is particularly emphasized by the founder. There are several quotations from Dogen Zenji, but I cannot translate it appropriately. So I want to skip it, but he says, "We heard many times that Buddha told -- left us supreme teaching, but until the understanding comes true which -- that it was Dharma who born -- it -- it was the enlightenment who made Buddha Buddha. Many people think this is -- many people thinks Buddha told us the teaching, but Buddha was told by teaching [laughs] by enlightenment. Enlightenment told Buddha [laughs] Until we come to this understanding, how many practice is necessary? How many practice is necessary?"

How many? It is not just, you know, your practice, but how many sentient beings' practice is necessary? Until we come to this understanding, even a frog studying hard in his world. Each sentient being striving for Bodhisattva way with his -- with their whole mind and body. So how many people, how hard they strive for this teaching, that it was the teaching who told -- who make Buddha Buddha. That is true Buddha: Buddha who was born by teaching, by emptiness, by enlightenment.

Why we are not Buddha? When we practice our way with our mind and body, like frog, when we are not ashamed of frog, our way, in front of frog, then you will understand it. Then you can eat frog even. So, the point is whether your practice is done by your whole body and mind. This is the key point. Don't look round -- around! In this way we should practice our way. Fortunately we have one more day of sesshin [laughs, laughter]. Don't be ashamed of your practice or else frog -- the frog will laugh at you [laughs] "What are you doing?" [laughs, laughter]. Okay?

Thank you very much.

[Closing chant - tape ends and restarts with Q&A, some words missing]

SR: [laughs] I think it's very simple [laughter over SR's words] ... so, you know, it may be the difference of the ?? You think it's -- first that it is alright, you know [laughter]. I don't, you know, I -- I can understand how you feel. But, you know, if you see our Japanese tea ceremony, you may think that is very troublesome and tedious and complicated, but if you understand it, that is the best way, you know. The result of the various practice and experience. So that is my answer.

[Some words addressed aside to SR]

SR: Hai! Please.

Student 1: Um, I was wondering, why -- after zazen I sometimes feel really good. Why shouldn't we, you know, get happy and run around and dance and sing? Um, I don't understand that [laughter].

SR: You see, when you have, you know, honey in your bowl, you see? A lot of honey. The -- your bowl is full of honey. Then, can you dance [laughter] with the honey in your bowl? You will spill it. So I think it may be better, you know, to keep it, to hold it still. That is how I feel.

Student 1: Are we supposed to keep all our feelings more inside ourselves as opposed to letting them out either in dancing or something like that? Is that --

SR: Mm-hmm, ah, yes,mm-hmm.

Student 2: How do we not spill our honey when we go back to sleep [laughter].

SR: [first words lost] Today is some fun [laughs]. That's good idea, I think.

Student 3: May I ask Dr Stunkard a question? I am confused in that modern psychiatrists used to -- wants us to -- tends to talk about strengthening the ego and Buddhism is ["speak up more"] about dissolving it. And also about this -- the feeling, psychiatrists will say that it's not healthy psychologically to hold your feelings within, and that also conflicts. I'm a bit -- it seems to me the two should not ??

Dr Stunkard: The question was the use of the word ego in psychiatry, and psychiatrists saying that you should strengthen the ego, and in Buddhism saying you should destroy it, and I think the words are being used in different ways.

Student 3: Mmm.

Dr Stunkard: The second question was about expressing feelings, and there I think there are many different views by many different psychiatrists so there's no standard view.

Student (RB): Can I add something? To Liz's question, I -- my understanding anyway is that it has no -- the fact that you don't let the feelings out exactly doesn't mean that they're not in you with clarity and expression. It's not repression or anything like that. Everything happens inside of you and you're conscious of it, but it's just not -- you just -- I mean, do you see what I mean? I mean you don't, in zazen, like, everything happens.

Student 3: Mmm.

RB: You let it happen.

Student 3: Very interesting, thank you.

Student 4: This is a bit, um -- these -- these questions being asked, what about the possibility of combining more what would seem to be diverse things, like perhaps one night there would be dances, or a play presented, something of that sort, with a ??? Are they so antagonistic that they couldn't work (?).

SR: Yeah, yeah, ah [laughter]. May I answer?

Student: Sure [laughter].

SR: Yeah, you know, this is the same thing with the destroying and self and strengthen the self. The meaning is the same, you know, but the expression is different. To cut off conscious -- root of the consciousness, you know, or to develop your consciousness to the utmost extreme, or to the whole world, you know. This is same thing, you know. This is the -- just difference of the word -- wording. If you really understand what do we mean, it is not, you know, to destroy your ego, it -- when your ego covers everything, that is same thing.

If ego covers everything, there is no more ego, you know. When only there is ego, what is that? {Laughs, laughter} That is not ego any more, you know [laughter]. What we mean is the same, if you really understand it. Inside and outside is also same.

Student 4: I feel that way, and I wonder why some other activities couldn't fit in, because that's true.

SR: Ah, that is your lack of practice [laughs]. You should practice back and forth, you know. From right and from back. This is our practice. Within movement there should be calmness, and calmness of the mind should be always active within, or ready to be active. Understand?

Student 4: Yes, I understand that.

SR: Yeah. Hai!

Student 5: Is it -- do you approve of cultivating a certain skill, during the time that we practice, so that it can give us hints as we go along in the skill, as to how far we've come in our practice? In other words, if we're looking for some sort of signpost or direction, as we're going along in our practice, that we have come somewhere?

SR: Mm-hmm.

Student 5: For example, you know, if -- if we read the book, you know, on archery for example, I'm not saying that's practical, but some sort of skill, or something.

SR: Skill, yeah --

Student 5: Something that we are giving ourselves to, which would indicate to us along the way that our practice is bearing fruit. Because sometimes, especially in the beginning, you feel lost, even in your practice. You must have a feeling, at least in the beginning, that you have some sort of direction, or accumulation that's occurring (?), to carry you through the times when you don't feel your practice is helping, or it is not bearing fruit, or you don't think so. It may be anyway, but you need some sort of encouragement.

SR: Mm-hmm [laughter] You need some candy [laughter]. [Aside] Will you explain?

RB: I think Zen has something to do with being ready for any activity, and that takes our full attention, just getting that readiness. If you want to go out and be in a play, or be an architect, or whatever, you should do that, but here we're concentrating on -- on -- in a sense being ready for any activity. But -- but when you leave here, you can do any activity you like, you know.

Student 5: I mean when we leave here -- some of us will leave here, who do not have a teacher at that time, when we leave (?). And we need some sort of indication while we're still here (?) [cut off by answer]

RB: Well, the way -- the way you've learnt here to practice your life, if when you go to the city you practice your life that way, imagine yourself in an enormous monastery, and then you can -- when you do your job, do your job as if you were practicing here. You'll find it quite interesting.

Student 5: I would like, once more, to find out whether I'm on the right track with this "gate, gate, paragate, parasamgate" mantram --

SR: Mm-hmm.

Student 5: -- of the Heart Sutra

SR: Mm-hmm.

Student 5: I get the impression from Edward Conze, and other sources, that the mantram, if it becomes part of your regular consciousness, can overcome a lot of this monkey mind [laughs]

SR: Mm-hmm.

Student 5: Is this -- is this true? And if it is true, why don't we hear more about it in --

SR: Mm-hmm.

Student 5: -- in Soto Zen?

SR: Mm-hmm [laughs]. Because -- that is, you know, because Zen -- if you practice Zen in its true sense, in its true sense, all the mantras -- mantrams is included, that is why. Here, again, what is Zen is -- should be clarified. And Zen is the practice to become one with, you know, the world, whatever you say -- your world, or our world. And here we have problem: what is our world, you know? Our world, right now, is to sit in Tassajara, is our world. When we -- our activity is limited in Tassajara, you have really problems, you know, But if you feel -- when you feel whatever -- if you do not like Tassajara, you can go to San Francisco [laughs]. If you -- as long as you have that kind of idea, our practice doesn't work [laughs]. You see? So it is necessary for you to limit your -- to have your own world. And when you have limited activity, to which you are concentrated, then you have fear, you have trouble, you have difficulty.

When you are in this kind of situation, mantras -- mantrams works as well "form is emptiness and emptiness is form," the teaching itself. Because to have your own world, is the -- what the mantram means and Prajna Paramita Sutra means. So actually you are practicing Zen. Zen and mantram is same thing, you know, in this ?? So when you are under this circumstances, in other words when you are practicing Zen, mantram works. But when you are hopping around, you know [laughs], looking around, seeking for something good [laughs], you don't want any mantrams [laughter]. Mantrams do not help this kind of people at all [laughs]. You see? So that is why we do not talk about mantram to people who do not practice Zen.

Student 5: Ah --

SR: You see? It doesn't work.

Student 5: I'm very grateful.

Student 6: Could I comment on ego strength, and dissolving ego?

SR: Mm-hmm.

Student 6: I've done a lot of thinking about that -- student psychology -- it helps. And I think ego strength is not dissolving the ego. I think it's becoming more self-accepting. And Buddhism -- dissolving the ego means to get rid of self-centeredness. And so they're two different terms. And in meditation I think we get a lot of these emotions out, in the same way you would by going to a psychiatrist. And dokusan too, the same kind of thing.

SR: [laughs] Mmm, yeah. This is, you know, very important point, in -- especially in Soto School. It takes pretty long explanation, using many technical terms. One hour is not long enough to clarify this point. It, you know, it is not matter of actually str-- strengthen ego or cutting off the ego. This is pretty, you know -- not difficult to understand, but when I want to explain it properly, it takes time. When you have your world, you know, in your world, the world round side is your ego, if it is -- if it is -- if it is -- if it is --

Student 7: Is Buddha nature something -- something conditioned or something unconditioned?

SR: Something conditioned? Unconditioned -- unconditioned -- unconditional one is Buddha nature. And it is, you know, unconditional one, but it -- we can appreciate it as an -- as a conditional one.

RB (?): [Aside] ??

SR: Conditional and unconditional is the Buddha nature - both. Okay?

Student A: What you always seem to say to that is form is emptiness and emptiness is form. And I think I have a feeling understanding form being emptiness, but I feel lost in emptiness being form.  And I think once in one of your lectures on the Heart Sutra you gave a very neat explanation of it that helped and I've forgotten it [laughter].

Another Student: It drifts away [laughter]

SR: Form is emptiness -- no, form is emptiness is understandable?

Student A; Yes, but not the other way around.

SR But emptiness is form, how about it? [Laughter] Form is form, you know. You are watching always form, so when we talk about "form is form," you know, you understand it. You know it is -- emptiness you know that, but emptiness is form may be a little difficult to understand. It means, you know, it looks like whatever you do, that is emptiness [laughs]. And this is rather difficult to understand. Why? Because when you do it, we just say -- whatever you do it, we say, but that "do" is not just "do" in its usual sense. Here practice is involved.

Student A: Do you mean that all emptiness assumes form? Is -- is that -- is that part of the idea? That emptiness all -- all emptiness assumes some sort of form anyway, so that's how emptiness is form?

SR: Mmm [laughter] I cannot follow. I -- I am figuring out what you mean [laughter].

Student A: I guess what I mean is there -- is there an unconditioned -- if -- huh -- or like if everything is Buddha nature --

SR: Mm-hmm

Student A: -- and there is this sort of absolute existing sort of at the center of everything --

SR: Mm-hmm

Student A: -- then is there any center in something -- 

SR: Center?

Student A: -- that will take on a form?

Another Student: Is any emptiness formless?

SR: Huh?

Another Student: Is any emptiness formless?

SR: Emptiness?

RB: I can see what she means.

SR: Ah?

RB: Does any emptiness remain emptiness and not become form, is what she is -- 

Roshi: Oh no [laughter]. No emptiness remain formless [laughter] Emptiness always, you taking form.

Other students: Ah. Oh.

RB: It sounds like you have two buckets with form -- [laughter] 

SR: Did you understand? That is very important point, you know. So, no emptiness which has no form.

Student A: And no form without emptiness.

SR: Uh-huh.

Student A: Oh that's beautiful! [Laughter]

SR: You understand good.

Student 8 (DC?): In the -- in the sutra we chant, the meal sutra, it says, "Buddha was born..." it says -- let's see now, attained enlightenment at one place, and entered nirvana in another, and this is something I have never understood, oh I try, I can't understand it, you know [laughter].  Maybe if you could explain, I could understand, now I can't understand it [laughter].

SR: [under laughter] ??

Student 8: There's a difference enlightenment and nirvana and you read about --

SR: Mm-hmm

Student 8: -- the bodhisattva first attained enlightenment, but then he won't go on to nirvana, or like the -- 

Another Student:  [Various voices aside] -- Parinirvana.

Student 8: -- but I don't -- I just want to --

SR: Mm-hmm

Student 8: -- you know, if we're going to understand these things [laughter]

Maezumi: Ahh, alright, Mister Suzuki Roshi, I'm going to give you the answer for that. In Zen we say Triple Treasures -- Triple Treasure -- Three Treasures, see, and one of them is the Buddha. And the confusion you have is the sort of unqualified concept of Buddha. So who is Buddha? And we could see this from three different standpoints, in other words, three different categories. And first one is the Buddha who was -- who was another historical Buddha, see, who was born in India, in Kapilavastu, then attained enlightenment when he was thirty-one years old. Then in other words, then he realized, the emptiness [laughs] is form and form is emptiness, see, and became the Buddha, the Enlightened One. That is his enlightenment, see? And "entered into nirvana," that means his physical extinction -- is an extinction of his physical body. And again, nirvana had various different meanings or connotations too. But here that means his physical death. Okay?

Student 8: That was a complete -- that's -- that's really exactly what I wanted to hear (?) -- 

Maezumi: Yeah, that is -- yeah that is one concept of the Buddha, alright? Then, like in the Hannya Shin Gyo, that's in the Prajna Paramita Sutra, I think Suzuki Roshi already explained it to you, see? Kan-- Avalo -- Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva is the figure he talks in that sutra, see? But, who is really the Kannon Bodhisattva or Kanjizai Bodhi -- Kanjizai Bosatsu, see? Who is he? Even though ?? is seen as bodhisattva, seen within all each one of us is, or will be, or is to be Kannon Bo -- Kanjizai Bodhisattva, see? And we call that an -- this sort of Buddha, see? He says in it (?) all sentient beings are the Buddha, or attain enlightenment, see? This sort of thing. We call this -- this is another concept of the Buddha too. We are the Buddha, see? We are originally the Buddha. And another one is the Buddha sitting here, see? [Presumably the statue on the altar] He is also the Buddha too. We cal this Juji Sambo, the Buddha of Juji Sambo [the Abiding Three Treasures], see? And ?? the Buddha who is -- we are the Buddha. This the Buddha of the one bodiment, see? And Buddha Shakyamuni is the historical Buddha who realized this fact. Is it clear?

Student 8: Yes

Maezumi: Hai

RB: Angie? 

Student B: I heard -- I read about a -- a koan Bassui, in a letter, asked I think of Huangbo (?) a monk or a nun or something, if they understood the meaning of  'Birds fly in the ocean, fish swim in the air.' Does this have to do with the -- the Genjo Koan?

SR: Mmm, I -- I couldn't hear you [Maezumi speaking underneath].

Student B: Ah --

SR: Bassui letter?

Student B: -- wrote to a monk or nun, I think it was -- 

SR: Mm-hmm

Student B: -- and asked him or her if they understood the meaning of 'Birds swim in the ocean and fish fly in the air.' Is this some -- thing that has to do with Genjo Koan?

SR: Genjo Koan? Mmmm. I -- I am not familiar with Bassui letter. That is very recently,  after studying -- after discovering his letter. This is found to be very important, a meaningful teaching is in it. But I am not familiar with it, I haven't read it, so will you explain about the story more?

Student B; Well, I think -- I can't remember exactly which letter it was, but it was a lot of questions that had to do with -- I think it was a nun's practice. 

SR: Mm-hmm.

Student B: And -- I think Bassui wrote back and said --

SR: Bassui --

Student B:  --  if you don't understand this, then -- then you must keep practicing, and if you don't understand it in this life then you will understand it in the next one. This -- this koan or whatever it was, you know, the fish flying in the air and birds swimming in the ocean. And that -- really can't throw the line in (?) [laughter].

SR: [aside] Do you understand, what she says. [Student still speaking underneath]

RB: So what you're really asking is what is the meaning of the koan -- 

Student B: Yeah

RB: -- 'Birds swim in the ocean and fish fly over your head.'

Student B: Yes [laughter - perhaps some gesture is made - more laughter].

RB: She -- the -- the -- the -- koan --

SR: Ah.

RB: -- or -- or that kind of statement -- 

SR: Ah-ha.

RB -- of 'fish fly in the air, and birds swim in ocean' --

SR: Ah-ha, oh yes [laughs].

RB: -- Bassui said --

SR: Ah-ha.

RB: -- and she wants to know what that means. 

SR: Mm-hmm [laughter]. Oh, fish fly, you see. People think fish, you know, fly -- no, swim in the ocean and bird fly in -- in air. That is usual understanding. But [laughter] -- quite usual --  but if I say, you know, opposite way, you may say I am crazy [laughter]. But really, am I crazy or not, you know, [laughter] is the point. You see, sometime -- oh yes -- Eisai Zenji -- when Dogen Zenji saw Eisai Zenji and asked a question about why -- what is Buddha Nature, and, when we have Buddha Nature, when is it -- why is it necessary to practice our way? And he said,  "Buddha Nature -- all the Buddhas in the three world does not know what is Buddha Nature [laughs], but fox and -- what is it? Badg -- badget? [several people say "badger"] badger knows what is Buddha Nature." Here, you know, "knows" means at the same time "do not know." When you know completely, you see, you do not know. Because as if you do not know your eyes, or do not see your eyes. But it does not mean you have no eyes. The same story will be the mountain -- bridge will -- will go, but water will stay [laughs]. This is the same story. 

Student B: I still don't understand [laughter].

SR: You don't understand?

Student B: I mean I understand what you said about the eyes.

SR: Eyes. Because you have eyes, you know --

Student B: Yeah, I understand that.

SR: And your eyes is too much familiar with your, you know -- you are too familiar with your eyes, that is why you do not see. So usual understanding which is too much familiar to you sometime do not make any sense to you. Something which is beyond your understanding makes sense when you study something. So you should extend your practice where you -- your usual understanding cannot reach. This kind of practice is necessary. How is it possible? That is -- only way is to practice true practice, which is based on the teaching "form is emptiness and emptiness is form." This kind of shift should -- should be possible in your -- in our practice.

I told you about the story of, you know animal eating -- devouring tiny bird, you know. That is -- that cannot be acceptable. But when your practice reach over your understanding which is familiar to yourself, then you can understand the situation of a bird as if you are in the same situation, and what you will do in the same situation when you are devouring by a cat, you know. Will you -- do you escape from it, or do you ask someone's help? And asking someone’s help is work or not, you know? What is the way? If you reach -- if your practice reach to this extent, you will understand, you know, the meaning of the bird swim in the water [laughs] and fish fly.

Student B: [one word inaudible] Will it help us any to identify with animals?

SR: Identify? No. Ident --

Student B: To put ourselves in their places? Is it part of our practice?

SR: No no. I -- what I mean is not just identify the understanding of your life with the other situation -- situation of bird. Not imagination. But through your practice you have right now. Do you understand? Extend -- extended practice, not identification. Identification is here, you know [pointing at head?] Practice is by your whole body and mind. Did you understand?

Student C: When you said, 'If you practice hard and you don't attain Buddhahood in this life, you will attain it in the next life -- 

SR: Yeah, I am joking with you [laughter]. Even though -- what I meant was, even though, you know, try hard, the -- you have, you know-- your understanding of practice is not perfect, you know, it doesn't work, you know.

Student C: Well, is there such a thing as a next life, between (?) --

SR: Mmm, yeah -- 

Student C: Or what is meant by that?

SR: There's, you know, clear difference between intellectual understanding and the understanding through your practice. You can -- through our practice we can fly [laughs] -- fly without an airplane [laughs]. It reaches this much, you know. [Two knocking sounds] We can understand, you know, this kind of -- various world in the same way [laughs]. This is not magic, you know [laughs]. I am not talking about magic.

Student D: As much as possible within a short time, could you continue the discussion of the ego --

SR: Ego.

Student D: -- as you were doing a little while ago.

SR: Ego?

Student D: Just your explanation which you were beginning to give, which you said would normally take you at least a whole hour [laughter]. Just possibly highlight or point out [laughter].

Other Student: Give us an outline.

Student D: Give us a synopsis [laughter]

SR: Ego?

Student D: So we can write it on the test (?).

Another Student: An abstract.

Roshi: Ego?

Student D: Victor had given a -- was trying to give a explanation between the ego of Buddhism, what it means to extinguish that, and what psychiatry or psychology is talking about as ego strength. And you said that the understanding of the differences was much more complicated. Or should be given more time to explain. And I wondered if you could continue on that explanation.

SR: Ego. Strictly speaking, ego does not exist [laughter]. It doesn't, you know. When you stress it, it means to -- to put emphasis on some point, of, you know, stream of some, you know, successive activity of yourself. Here it is your ego, next moment here [knocking] is your ego. It is not just continuous ego. It is changing moment after moment. That is why we say ego -- ego does not exist. No such thing as ego, you see. Firewood does not become ash [laughs]. That is true. So there is no firewood or no ash. There is no ego. But still, you know, something exists moment after moment. You can understand same thing in two ways [laughs].

Some is -- one is successive -- no successive ego. The other is discontinuous ego exist, which changes. Even though in the smallest particle of time imaginable it exists. It appears. So something which do not disappear actually do not exist. Whatever it is, what appear should disappear. This is true. So ego is something which should disappear and which should appear. So ego has two meanings. Sometimes we say ego exists and to strengthen ego is to have your own world, to have your own practice, you see? That is to stress your ego. But if you attach to some particular state of mind, that is delusion which do not actually exist. That is no more [laughs], no more such thing. Because something appears should disappear. Nothing exist without disappearing. Isn't this true? Both is true. The concept of time is also continuous and discontinuous. When we talk about ego it involves always concept of time. Time is continuous and discontinuous. That is time. When I say nine o'clock, that is idea of discontinuity. And when we say time -- time exist, you know, time continues. That is idea of time of continuous.

So even time is continuous and discontinuous. So is the self. Self is continuous and discontinuous, appear and disappear. And yet it continues in some way. But it changes. As long as it changes, same ego do not exist. Did you understand? So to strengthen your ego means to have your own practice, to live in your own world and let everything live its own world, and let everything has its own position, you. That is true mercy. You know, to keep a dog in your house [laughs] is not always to love dogs. Do you see?

Student E (male): In my zazen many illusions come to mind which interfere with my concentration on sitting, on just sitting, if I become involved with them. Is there -- what should I do with this? I mean, you know, what does this mean?

SR: Many ideas come.

Student E: Images like what will happen or what has happened, or -- 

SR: Ah-ha.

Student E: And I forget about where I am, you know.

SR: Yeah. If you understand many images which looks like come -- comes from outside is -- also exist in your own practice. That is also a part of practice, you know. Nothing comes from outside. Whatever you hear whatever you see, that is within yourself, that is your own world.

Student E; But -- 

SR: Why you shouldn't [laughs] -- why are you disturbed by it?

Student E: Well -- 

SR: You have your own -- [someone tries to speak] Let me say something more, you know. If you have pain in -- on your legs do you cut off your legs [laughs] and practice zazen? [Laughter] No, you don't [Laughter].Same thing, you know. Your practice, you know, is not, you know, strong enough or, I don't know, very dualistic, or very lim -- limited. How can you understand "the fish flies?" [Laughs] Your -- your practice should be extended that much.

Student E: Well, what I meant was not shrug (?) them off, but to -- I mean it seems I became so involved in them, that it didn't -- well it didn’t seem like I was practicing.

SR: Yes, I understand what -- how you feel and what you mean. We just say, let it come in, let it go out [laughs], while -- without disturbing by it. Don't entertain them [laughter].

Student E (female): Roshi, what does it mean about everything coming from inside yourself? I admit that sometimes when -- when concentrating, it's as though it's like I get to a point of concentration and deliberately start trying to daydream. And this really makes me mad. I don't know -- you know, I don't know what -- if there is anything I can do about it, or if someday I'll just be able to concentrate instead of conjuring up ways to keep myself from concentrating. And it doesn't make any sense, but it's like my ego saying, okay, you've concentrated far enough, and now it's my turn [laughter].

SR: Technically, concentration is important in zazen. Without concentration there is no zazen. That is very true. But that is not only important thing. Big Mind is necessary, you see? So --

Student E: I -- I understand that. I don't -- don't really know it relates. Because it seems like these thoughts that come in keep me from -- 

SR: Ah-ha

Student E: -- Big Mind, you know --

SR: Yes

Student E: -- it's like a wall that has been set up between me and everything else [one or two words unclear].

SR: Always, you know, realize this point: the world -- the practice you have is not -- your practice is your own practice. That is true. But that is not only practice. Some others will practice in some other way. That is also practice. When he -- we are devote ourselves to it completely with mind and body, this is the focus, or the most important point, you see? When you concentrate on your practice, that is the most important point. The practice -- concentration is a part of practice but not all of it. So if you think just to be concentrated on something is Zen, that is not true understanding.

You have to accept your practice and at the same time you have to accept others' practice -- other way of conc -- practice. Then you will not be attached to your own practice so much. Here you will have true freedom from your practice too, accepting many worlds in the same way and developing your practice to the -- the innumerable worlds until you can sit in your own position, in your own way, with your whole mind and body. You see? There is your zazen -- true zazen. When you -- we are discussing zazen, we are discussing zazen -- our zazen only [laughs], you know, without accepting frog's zazen, or tile-polishing zazen [laughs], or jewel -- jewel-maker's zazen [laughs].

Student 9: Could I ask about "adya (?) jiji muge"? Is that the same as form and emptiness and emptiness is form?

SR: Excuse me?

Student 9: Adya (?) jiji muge.

SR: Jiji muge? Jiji muge, yes. Jiji muge -- jiji muge is understandable. Jiji muge means ah [laughter] whatever it is, you know. Underlying -- there is underlying truth. And truth and phenomena is one. This is understandable. Everything goes as the truth goes. And everything exists without any interruption, you see? This is rather difficult to understand. If there is a cat, there is a bird [laughs], you see. This is very difficult to understand, to accept. To -- when you understand the truth of jiji ri -- jiji muge, there's no -- nothing can disturb other being. That is jiji muge. There is no interruption between various things, which is teaching of Kegon school. Zazen practice should go -- this is true with zazen practice. Of course it's -- it's so, it must be so. Hai.

Student F: I have a question I think that a lot of people are worried about. I think a lot of people feel that here they have gained something, and that they don’t want to see it just go away when they go back to the city. And -- 

SR: Mmm?

Student F: I think a lot of people have gained something involved in our way of life here that -- I know I'm afraid that it's just going to vanish when I get back to the city.

SR: Mm-hmm.

Student F: In the city there are so many questions and problems that we don't even have here --

SR: Yes.

Student F: -- and there doesn't seem to be any right or wrong answer, right or wrong thing to do. And -- 

SR: That is very true because city is too -- is mixed up and [laughs] complicated and is difficult to live in it, you know. You don't find your own home even in the city [laughs]. That is very true. But it does not mean there is no life in the city. Even in city there should be life. If you, you know, understand our way you can establish your life in the city too, you see? The river is running but  bridge will stay, you see?

Student F: What can we -- what is the right thing to do then? Somebody (?) -- I mean, there doesn't seem to be any -- any way to live that we can devise. So many questions that don't have any right or wrong answer. What is the best way to behave -- to -- to live -- to talk about practice --

SR: The only way [laughter] -- You want a lot of training, back and forth. That is, you know, rather our way.

Student F: Pardon? I can't hear what you say (?)

SR: You should practice our way back and forth, you know. We, you know -- our way is pretty complicated as you know. Somehow -- someone pointed out [laughter] same thing oryoki [laughter]. But the city is more busy and more complicated, and in some extent it is more formal. There is not much freedom. It looks freedom, but actually not much freedom in it. It is anyway mixed up, but you have to accept it, you know. City is some place like that. You should realize it. And -- but try not, you know, to understand city life completely. It is impossible [laughter]. Just enjoy it [laughter].

Student 10: You were talking about form and emptiness, and according to the sutras my -- form is emptiness and emptiness is form.

SR: Mm-hmm.

Student 10: The same is true of feelings and impulses and consciousness. 

SR: Mm-hmm. Yes.

Student 10: These are also emptiness, and emptiness is also free (?)

SR: Mm-hmm.

Student 10: In my understanding, I can transpose all of the -- what you have said about form and emptiness. Is this correct?

SR: Yes. Form and emptiness. Emptiness is form -- when we say emptiness is form we accept form. And form is emptiness -- I don't know which is which [laughs] but it is, you know, way of saying. I always wondered which means which, you know. Emptiness is form. In English which do you mean when I say emptiness is form, you know. Emptiness is form. The emptiness is subject and form is predicate, isn't it? [Several voices: yes, yes it is, okay]. So you are explaining the emptiness: emptiness is form. So emptiness is -- you put emphasis on emptiness, you see? Emptiness is form and form is emptiness. When we say form is emptiness, you know, this is empty. And emptiness is form -- when we say emptiness is form, that is enlightenment is first, or unconditional one is first, and those are conditioned ones. So it means unconditional one is conditioned one, which is eyes and nose. I understand your word in this way. Am I correct? [Laughter]

Student 10: I don't -- I don't know how far the conversation got at this point. I was wanting to know if I could just transpose words besides form. Instead of saying form is emptiness, I could say consciousness is emptiness, emptiness is consciousness. Impulse is emptiness, emptiness is impulse.

SR: Oh, yes. There are -- could be many analogies here.

Student 10: And everything that you said about form and emptiness also applies to these other forms (?).

SR: Yes. Yes, that is very true. That is actually what we mean, but we explain it old, traditional way. 

Student G: The concept of saving others before saving yourself. What does it mean to save others?

SR: Save others?

Student G: Yes.

SR: Save others does not mean just alms-giving or, you know, to address by kind words. That is not, you know -- in normal way, is not to save others in its true sense. To give the strength or to make his life strong, or to make his ego stronger, you may say [laughter], is actually to save others. It is most important point.

Student G: Then, when you say save others before saving yourself, do you mean save others, in the process, or by saving yourself?

SR: : Save both -- before, or after, we say many times. This is in word -- as long as you use word, one of the two should be first [laughs]. The other should be next [laughs, laughter]. As long as you say two things, to save myself and to save others, this is actually, you know, two ways of explaining things, so we should say one first and one after. But actually it is same thing. So far, same thing, and your understanding should reach this point.

Student H: What is meant by effortless effort?

SR: Effortless effort? Oh, that is effort --  when you feel you are following -- you are making effort, putting something in -- as your example, or according to rules, that is effort, you know, just effort. The effortless effort comes from true -- your true understanding which prec -- which comes before the teaching or rules. Do you understand? So whatever you do, that is your world, your practice. When your practice becomes your practice, that is effortless effort. Whatever effort you make, that is your effort, you know. When the effort is yours, when the world is yours, there is nothing -- no restriction, you see? It goes as you want to go. Because you want to do it you do it. That is effortless effort.

RB: [aside] Can I ask a question? One question that's come up quite a few times is when students have been asked if they would work in the kitchen, they say that Zen is zazen, I want to practice zazen, I should be in kit-- in here, not in kitchen. Some other students should be in kitchen. Or they don't think of our cook who's been in kitchen for four months without sitting in zazen. 

SR: Mm-hmm.

RB: And my -- somehow it seems to me that Zen is -- is a whole-life kind of practice which doesn't involve just zazen, but can you make some comment on that?

SR: Yeah, this is very - actually to explain it easy, you know. Whatever you do it should be Zen. But actually this is very difficult. That is why we sit actually in cross-legged position. This is the most direct, easiest way to practice our way. And so -- I'm very sorry for the people who is working in the kitchen actually. But those who in -- work in the kitchen, if they think -- if they work, the idea of Zen and kitchen work is different. That isn't -- he is not -- he does not deserve [laughs] you know -- person who is responsible for the kitchen work, you see? He has that much spirit in his work.

I know it is difficult, but even though it is difficult, you should do that. Difficulty is a good chance to realize our true way, as Maezumi Sensei said, you know. You should be disturbed by zazen [laughs, laughter]. Then we go to kitchen [laughter]. Kitchen is disturbance. When you sit in zendo, the pain on your legs is disturbed, you see? Wherever you go there is disturbance. So you have something to work on [laughter] -- object (?) as our practice. In this way we extend our practice. Did you understand? Oh, excuse me [laughter]. 

Maezumi: [aside in Japanese]

SR: Hai.

Maezumi: ??? the shuso, Osho raised a very good point. In practice (?) I have been appreciating very much for those who are working in the kitchen, especially the one who is in charge of it. It must be a terrific effort to ?? control the meals for us like this. I really appreciate it. And when we read the documents like Blue Cliff, others (?), that sort of documents, those who play the main role, mostly like the shuso, standing here in this -- for this training session, ?? Dick is the shuso -- either shuso or the attendant, see -- here Sandy is Suzuki Roshi's attendant, and cook - - and generally speaking, see, the cook are the well -- the very well-trained monks unless (otherwise) they are simply not allowed to be a cook. So it's very important.

And perhaps Seppo Gison -- he is very -- very great man in later Tang Dynasty, he spent most of his training time in the kitchen, and he trained himself in a terrific way, see? What I wanted to say is that cooking is a very, very important thing, and at the same time I wanted to express my gratitude and gratefulness for those worked hard in kitchen where is rather considered to be a minor place, but it is not at all. That's what I wanted to say. Thank you.

RB: Someone suggested that we, next year, next sess -- training period, hire people to work in the kitchen and -- so that everyone can sit. But if we -- if you think about that, and you think about that if we can't take care of ourselves, then what is Zen, you know? 

Student 11: Dick, can -- a suggestion would be to have more people in the kitchen over the sesshin -- 

RB: We'd need a larger kitchen.

Student 11: I know I didn't mean more -- I meant more -- more are off in a day so more alternate people, rather than the same people for seven days.

RB: Well it takes a certain amount of skill [other voice: time to get to know a job] to be a kitchen, you know, it takes somebody who's quite good, and that's one reason many of the older students are in the kitchen, because they're willing to say yes when the question's asked, you know, and they also understand better how this happens. Some of the students who -- who say no make the students who give up zazen for six months or a year to make this kind of thing possible, feel like maybe they're running a hotel or something like that, you know. So we have to have students who -- who have some experience and -- and it's hard to -- I think next year when we have the larger kitchen it may be easier to train more people, and as we go along we will train more people. But as Chino Sensei said, we're a baby monastery and we need baby monks in the kitchen right now [laughter]. Suzuki Roshi, I think we could think about ending soon [laughter] because this is the time we would normally chant the Shin Gyo.

SR: Ah-hah. Hai.

Student I: Here we are practicing limiting our activity, and I was wondering if you thought it would be good, when we get back to our regular life, say in the city, if we should try there to practice some kind limitation on our activity.

SR: Mmm. Mmm. I couldn't follow her.

RB: She said here we practice some limitation of our activity.

SR: Mm-hmm.

RB: Would it be good in the city to practice -- to think about our city life and practice some limitation of our city life as a kind of practice?

SR: Yeah, that is very good but very difficult to do it, you know. That almost impossible, I think. You want, you know, excellent teacher. I cannot do that [laughs], I cannot be responsible for that. Some day you can do it, but as I said, city life, you say, but the gre -- the bigger the city is the more complicated. And if there are one hundred people, there are one hundred ways of city life. But very difficult to figure out what is going in the city. If you live in, for instance, Tokyo or New York, you are alone. Only one person is working. No one is working with you, actually. I feel in that way. So, you know, the practice should be done --  fundamental practice should be done in this kind of place [Tassajara]. Then you can extend this spirit to city life. That is how I understand it.

Thank you very much for your meaningful discussion.