Women Ancestors Class

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SF-02746
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I vow to taste the truth of the Tatagata's words. The acoustics are very nice here. Do you have enough room? Do you feel more crowded? I think so. That's okay as well. I think we're good. You want to do a song? Happy. So, I have these Raihei Tokutsui. This is Dogen in that Vasco where he talks about women being worthy of prostrations and so forth. So, these are for you. I hope you have enough. Okay. If you have an extra one, I'll take one from Barbara. Sure. I think she wants one. Is it Raihei Tokutsui? Raihei Tokutsui. Zui. Zui.

[01:00]

Right. And this is what Suzuki Roshi wrote his dissertation on. Which I'd love to get a copy of. Since we brought it up last week, I just wanted to say a couple of things about this. You can read it at your leisure. He basically, Dogen in this, starts off saying it's hard enough to find a Dharma teacher. So, when you find one, whatever it is, if it's a man or a woman, it doesn't matter. Just revere them as somebody who teaches Dharma. And, let's see. Why are you laughing? Because I just turned the page to, Furthermore, nowadays extremely stupid people look at women without having corrected the prejudice that women are objects of sexual greed. Yes, what is that? 78.

[02:03]

Paragraph 192. It's a very, the light isn't that good in here. This is a very interesting part because he basically brings up a very modern kind of thing. I think I talked about this last week. The object, does that one go up one? It goes up three. I don't know if it's at the top. Aha. Good, good, good. So, this prejudice that women are objects of sexual greed, disciples of the Buddha must not be like this. If whatever may become the object of sexual greed is to be hated, do not all men deserve to be hated too? You know, it's the, if we're talking about the object should be hated, well, then everybody should be. As regards to causes and conditions of becoming tainted, a man can be the object, a woman can be the object. What is neither man nor woman can be the object, and dreams and fantasies, flowers and space can also be the object.

[03:07]

There have been impure acts done with a reflection on water as an object, and there have been impure acts done with the sun and the sky as an object. A god can be the object, a demon can be the object. It is impossible to count all the possible objects. They say that there are 84,000 objects. Well, I didn't realize that. Should we discard all of them? Should we not look at them? The precepts say abuse of the two male organs, male organ and anus, or the three female organs are both parajika, and the offender may not remain in the community. This being so, if we hate whatever might become the object of sexual greed, all men and women will hate each other, and we will never have any chance to attain salvation. So, it's just, it's so clear, you know, it's just so clear. This was what year? What time period? This is 1300s. Well, Dogan is, I mean, 13th century, Dogan was 1200 to 1253.

[04:09]

And on this next page, 79, right next to, well, no, it's where I was just reading them, on this next panel on the right, among bad people there are men who are bad people, among good people there are women who are good people. Wanting to hear the Dharma and wanting to get liberation never depend on whether we are a man or a woman, and they have yet to cut delusion. Men and women alike have yet to cut delusion. When they cut delusion and experience the principle there is nothing at all to choose between a man and a woman. Moreover, if a man has vowed never to look at a woman, must he discard women even when vowing to save limitless many living beings? If he discards them, he is not a Bodhisattva. How much less? 78? No. It's right in there. We have a paper at the top. No, no, it's right here. But look what it comes out right here. It's over here. It's right here.

[05:12]

Oh, yeah. Moreover. Sorry. I'm sorry, folks. I must be looking at a different copy. I found it on 79. Yeah. Oh, right at the very top. Okay. 79. It's just the next paragraph. 79 is different. Sorry. It's Xeroxed differently somehow. Okay. So, this thing about men shouldn't look at women was, you know, one of these things that you hear repeated where Ananda says to the Buddha, you know, what if a woman, you know, comes down the street or something? Well, don't do something. What if she speaks to you? Don't talk back. What if she... Don't look at her, Ananda. You know, it's this whole thing. So, I think he's bringing this up. If he discards them, he is not a Bodhisattva. If he discards vowing to save women, he's not a Bodhisattva. How much less does he have the Buddha's compassion? This vow, meaning not to look at women, is just a drunken utterance caused by deep intoxication on the wine of the Sri Ravaka.

[06:14]

Neither human beings nor God should believe this vow to be true. Furthermore, if we hate others for the wrongs they have committed in the past, we must even hate all Bodhisattvas. If we hate like this, we'll discard everyone. So, how will we be able to realize the Buddha Dharma? Words like those of the monk's vow are the deranged speech of a stupid man who does not know the Buddha Dharma. And then he goes on, oh, this person took a vow to never look at a woman, and he's going on about how ridiculous this is. Later, down a little further, if the vow of that monk were true, not only would we fail to save women, but also when a woman who has got the Dharma manifested herself in the world and preached the Dharma for human beings and gods, we would be forbidden to come and listen to her, would we not? Anyone who did not come and listen would be not a Bodhisattva. Would be not a Bodhisattva, but just a non-Buddhist. And a little further, there are also those who, although women have visited good counselors, made effort in pursuit of the truth,

[07:18]

and just become the guiding teachers of human beings and gods. There are women such as the old woman who wouldn't sell her rice cakes, throw her rice cakes away, so on and so forth. Oh, this next paragraph. Again in Japan, there is one particularly laughable institution. This is either called a sanctuary, or called a place for practicing the truth of the great vehicle, where bhiksunis and other women are not allowed to enter. And this goes back to those eight special rules, you know, where women kind of point to that. The wrong custom has long been handed down, and so people cannot recognize it for what it is. People who emulate the ancients do not rectify it, and men of wide knowledge give no thought to it. Calling it the enactment of people of authority, or terming it the legacy of men of tradition, they never discuss it at all. If one laughed, a person's guts might split. Just who are the so-called people of authority? Anyway, it's really a diatribe. This is like Mount Hiei,

[08:21]

where women were not allowed on sacred ground, supposed sacred ground. And then, further on, yet the Buddhist order when he was in the world included all four groups, bhikshus, bhikshunis, upasakas, and upasikas, that's laymen and women. It included the eight kinds of beings, the 37 kinds of beings, and the 84,000 kinds of beings. The formation of the Buddhist order is clearly the Buddhist order itself. So what kind of order has no bhikshunis, has no women, and has no eight kinds of beings? We should never hope to have so-called sanctuaries, which surpass in their purity the Buddhist order of the Tathagata's lifetime, because they are the sphere of heavenly demons. Yet many bhikshunis, further on, have experienced the fourth effect. So to what kind of place, whether it is within the triple world or in the Buddhist lands of the ten directions, can a bhikshuni not go? Who could stand in her path? At the same time, the final state of truth is also the supreme rank. When a woman has thus already become a Buddha,

[09:22]

is there anything in all directions that she cannot perfectly realize? Who could aim to bar her from passing? Yeah. And just on this last page, there should never be a place where they cannot go. Still less should bhikshunis rank alongside kings and ministers of a minor nation in a remote land. But when we look at present places of truth, in quotes, which a bhikshuni may not enter, any rustic boor, farmer, or old lumberjack can enter at random. Still less would any king, lord, officer, or minister be refused entry. Comparing country bumpkins and bhikshunis in terms of learning of the truth or in terms of attainment of rank, who is superior and who is inferior? The situation in Japan is utterly deranged. Our inferior nation is the first to leave this stain on its history, how pitiful it is

[10:25]

that when the eldest daughters of the compassionate father of the triple world came to a small country, they found places where they were barred from going. On the other hand, fellows who live in those places called sanctuaries have no fear of committing the ten wrongs, and they violate the ten important precepts, so on and so forth. So in no uncertain terms does Dogen set forth his take on this. And what's interesting is, later on, he was a reformer. Dogen was, in many ways. And later on, this was expurgated. This particular fascicle was edited, and these things were edited out, and they went back to these rules of keeping women barred from certain holy places. Even at Eheiji? Yeah, in the Soto Zen tradition. And this academy has recently been, they've found the older version that, yeah.

[11:25]

But anyway, the fact that Dogen himself was so strong about this, I mean, it's really one of the strongest pieces where he says, you know, this is laughable if you laugh, your guts would split. So you can study this. How was Rahaitokuzui received when it was written? Did you catch any? You know, I don't really know. I mean, it was often, let's see, what does it say at the end? This was given, this was written at Kanon Dori Kosho Horinji Temple on the Day of Purity and Brightness. Let's see, this was in 1240. So, it's hard to say. I mean, you know, these things were written and given as lectures to the monks. So, who knows?

[12:29]

They went along with it, I think. Pretty clear. What is Shravaka? Shravaka? Shravaka. Shravaka is a stream enterer. Drunk on the wine of Shravaka. And it's often referred to as, you know, there's this Hinayana Mahayana, the old, Hinayana is a pejorative term meaning small vehicle. Mahayana is the large vehicle. But the old wisdom school, you can also say the earliest Buddhist schools, which I want to talk about tonight. What the pitfalls of it really are, and the pitfalls, I would say, is this emphasis on purity, which we were talking about, I think, last week, too. You know, you read all these monastic rules and then are you pure? Is everybody pure here? Okay, everybody's pure.

[13:29]

And then there's those who aren't pure. So, I think one of the pitfalls of the whole old wisdom school was this emphasis more and more on purity. And so I think it's referring to this, where it became very dualistic, actually. Those who were the pure ones and those who weren't the pure ones. And women, you know, fell into the category of, you know, the impure, culturally speaking, and then that got played out. So, I think that's what it's referring to there. Is this the name of the book that it comes from? No, this is one of the fascicles in, Dogen wrote, his main work of his life was the Shogogenzo, the Treasury of the True Dharma-I, and that's divided into 90 fascicles.

[14:32]

They call them fascicles. I'm not exactly sure. I've never heard anything else referred to as a collection of fascicles, but it's like little chapters, little essays, chapters, Dharma talks, and there's 90 of them. So, this is the name of one of those fascicles. So, this is number eight. So, it's probably in the first book? Well, this is the Nijima Cross. There's many translations, and this is from Nijima Cross translation, and it's not written on here anyway. And that's a three-volume set, and I'm not sure which one this is in. This isn't in the Shogogenzo? It's in the Shogogenzo, and this comes from the Nijima Cross translation of the Shogogenzo, yeah. But I don't think KAZ has it, like Muna Madruda doesn't have this one. Enlightenment Unfolds? Enlightenment Unfolds, I'm not sure they have it either.

[15:32]

But who else has it? Dr. Abe's translation. Anyway, there's certain translations, but Nijima Cross is supposed to be a very good translation. I'm not speaking Japanese. I don't know. Isn't there a total of 90 fascicles? 90, yeah. But there's other writings that he did. That's the Shogogenzo, there's 90 fascicles. Yeah. So... I was just coming back on the plane. There was a Vietnamese monk, and I talked to him a little bit in the airport, and he was telling me it's very important. He said, are you single? I said, yes. He's like, good. You must not think on women if you want to follow Buddha's way. Never think on women. You must keep your practice pure. Oh, no kidding, right in the airport? Yes. And you said, don't worry. No worries there. That's so interesting. He used the word pure. Yeah, like a diamond. What kind of diamond? He said, Vietnamese.

[16:34]

He was on his way to the city of 10,000 Buddhas. Oh, wow. Well, I wanted to talk about that, because this thing, I felt like last week... Anyway, that's one subject I'd like us to talk about. But before we do, are there some people who haven't yet given their... Go ahead. Is that the only person? Luigi. And Courtney. Well, I'm sharing about Bhadrakuta Laksasa. And sort of a brief synopsis of her story. She was born into a wealthy family and fell in love with a highway robber. She fell in love with him

[17:35]

just as he was being led to execution. She begged her father to have some connections to free him so she could marry him. And so they ended up becoming a wed couple. And after they had gotten married, he fabricated a lie about how he had told a cliff deity where he was going to be executed that if he was allowed to live, he could come back, and he would come back and offer something as an offering. And so he asked her to come and wear all her jewels so there could be an offering. When they got there, he told her that he was not going to do that and he was going to take all her jewels. So she gave him all her jewels. And before he was going to kill her, she said, well, can I have one last wish?

[18:36]

And he said, well, could I have one embrace? So they said she embraced him from the front and then embraced him from the back and pushed him over the cliff. Oh. So, looking on her feet. And so, but then she couldn't go back to her family. I guess she felt very ashamed of her choice. And she joined the Svetombara Jain, which I know there's quite a few women that joined them. It was the first religious sect that had nuns. And she asked for their severest asceticism, which included tearing out her hair clump by clump with their hands. And she eventually mastered all of their teachings and decided that she needed to move on and look for more teachings. So she wandered around. She was part of the era of nuns

[19:38]

who could wander freely in the forest. Every new town she'd come to, she would stick a rose apple branch in the ground, which kind of meant I'm ready to do a duel, like a spiritual or intellectual duel. And after many years of going around doing this, she never could find anyone who could match her skills until she came to Savati, where Shariputra was living. And he responded to her challenge, and they debated together for a long time, and he being the first one to be able to answer all her questions. And then finally it was his turn, and he asked her, one, what is that? And she, for the first time, didn't know how to respond and immediately asked him to become her teacher,

[20:39]

which I thought was an interesting response, you know? Well, who knows? I can imagine someone getting really indignant. She immediately realized that there was something to learn right there. She really appreciated that. So instead of becoming her teacher, Shariputra sent her immediately to Gautama, recognizing that she lacked quite a depth of understanding of the Dharma, or maybe it wasn't the Dharma, but the way. And so it's said that upon hearing the Buddha's words, she immediately became enlightened, and she was the only woman that was ordained in the way that she was ordained, which was basically the Buddha saying, Kumbhada. That was it, and she was ordained.

[21:40]

Usually the woman had to ask permission from both the nuns and the monks to become ordained, but she was highly developed enough to be able to just have those two words, Buddha. And so after she became enlightened, she continued wandering as an independent woman, and I don't know if she was teaching, but she was wandering spreading the Dharma to people until she died. And I found it very inspiring how she started out as a young, wealthy woman falling in love with a highway robber and making some poor judgments

[22:43]

to this really highly esteemed enlightened being. So bravo, lass. I thought it was an interesting story. I thought it was interesting that she didn't go back to her family after finding out that her husband had turned around his ways and that she somehow had to punish herself for that. I can relate to that. Yeah, she asked for the strongest asceticism practices, yeah. Does she have a book? Wow, I didn't write it down.

[23:45]

Let's see. Forty-six. Yes. Forty-six? Would you like me to read it? Yes. I cut my hair and wore the dust, and I wandered in my one robe, finding fault where there was none and finding no fault where there was. Then I came from my rest one day at Vulture Peak and saw the pure Buddha with his monks. I bent my knee, paid homage, pressed my palms together. We were face to face. Kambada, he said. That was my ordination. I have wandered throughout Anga and Magadha, Vajji, Kasi and Kosala, fifty-five years with no debt, I have enjoyed the alms of these kingdoms. A wise lay follower gained a lot of merit.

[24:48]

He gave a robe to Vada, who is free from all bonds. I think one, if I might add, the Buddha said she was the first among the nuns, foremost of the nuns, in the speed with which she gained nirvana. With him, although she'd had all those years as a Jain. It's interesting about her. Someone came up to me and said, Do you know that one of the Acharyas was a murderer? And I said, Yes, I think I do. She pushed him off. It doesn't say that he was killed. I don't know. But anyway, I said, Yeah, there's probably... There's a lot of different kinds of people

[25:50]

who were part of the order. But they were... Sounds like this to me. We have murderers? Have had that... Here? I mean, no. That has happened in people's lives. More than one? I don't know what you're referring to exactly. All right. Thank you very much. Joe, anything else personally about it that... I really love stories of transformation and just coming from... a more naive and murderous past to quite an inspiring state of enlightenment. Okay, thank you. I'd like to start by reading Enlightenment for me.

[26:57]

There's not one convention. Grief stricken for my son, Mad-minded, out of my senses, I was naked with wild hair, And I wandered anywhere. I lived on trash heaps, In a graveyard, And by the highways, Three years wandering, Starved and thirsty. Then, in the city of Mitra, I saw the one who tames what is untamed, And goes his way in happiness, Enlightened, unafraid. I came to my senses, Paid homage, And sat down. Out of compassion, Gotama taught me the way. When I heard his words, I set out into homelessness. By putting his teachings into practice, I realized great joy. My grief is cut out, Finished, ended, For I have understood the ground From which all grief comes.

[28:01]

Vaseti was born in Vasali, And she was married, By this account, happily, And she gave birth to a son, And the son died at an early age, And she went mad, And wandered from place to place, And was cast out. There really weren't any institutions in place For such a grief-stricken woman, And so she wandered, Like an unwanted animal, For three years, Until she met the Buddha. And, Personally,

[29:12]

I suppose it's Mercant's interpretation As a 20th century woman That seems a bit more even-handed to me. Buddha was A great enlightened being, And Vaseti met him And awakened. But I, in my research, Which came across Horner's Women Under Primitive Buddhism And the account of meeting the Buddha And experiencing that shift, I don't know, it just feels A little sexist to me. Born in crazy with grief At the death of a child,

[30:14]

She wandered about for three years Until she met the Master, When at the sight of him Self-controlled and self-contained, And through his power She was able to regain her normal mind. I read it several times, But I still come back to that sense of Insane woman Calmed by the presence of this great man. And I return to Dennis' question of Male validation and Enlightenment Seemingly bestowed by men, Not something that women Encounter or realize on their own. I don't want to interrupt you, but... Sorry, I think I'm finished. So, is it that she kind of,

[31:16]

She was kind of insane, Or had lost touch with reality, Or had decompensated, Or however you want to think of it, And hadn't received any help, And then when she came upon the Buddha, This contact with someone that calm And stable and compassionate, So at that point, My understanding of it was that She kind of restabilized. But I wasn't sure that She became enlightened at that point, As much as the contact with That kind of a person helped her To just restabilize herself. That's how I understood it. But did you feel like she actually Had an Enlightenment experience? Um... Which? I assumed that Vasetti... Where are you, Vasetti? I assumed that it was An Enlightenment experience because She became devoted to him afterwards.

[32:18]

I don't have an answer, somehow. Vasetti from Basala was happily married, Became a nun in Arhat. Well, she did become a nun in Arhat. Went mad with grief, Touching him. Well, I think Horner in particular, For example, this is Ivy Horner, Who was from the Polytech Society, And she did a lot of these translations Very early on, and for example, In terms of androcentric, We've been talking about male-centered, She translated the word bhikshuni As either elder sister or lady. But for bhikshu, She translated it as Honored man, honored lord. But she didn't say honored lady. You know? So in her translation itself, Embedded within it is this kind of bias.

[33:22]

So I hear that in there. She meant, and through his power, She became. But I do feel like there is, We are affected by people Who are stable and calm. Thich Nhat Hanh talked about The boat people, When people were escaping from Vietnam, He said if there was one calm person On the boat, just took one, The entire group would make it. But if there was no person Who was able to hold that, They didn't have a chance. So I think the power of one person's Rooted, calm, grounded being Is enormously powerful. But right, through the powers of, You know, that, yeah. I think for me, Especially around madness, I think it can, There's sensitivity because

[34:24]

There's a lot of, In our culture, There's a history of Talking about women's hysteria. Like women's emotion being seen as Oh, hysterical women Who don't know how to control their emotions. Yes. And it affects their rationality. So I can understand Around this issue of madness, There being sensitivity because of our Coming from a culture that Has had that attitude. Any other personal Reactions to it or her story? I Couldn't get close to The loss of a child. Personally, I I felt abandoned as a child.

[35:26]

One of the difficult issues for me is Sort of how my parents Get along with The loss of their children. They just Sort of gave us up. And they seemed to function Quite well. And this woman lost a child, Didn't abandon him, But he died and She was no longer In the same contact with him And she went mad. And It just, it seems very hazy And something that I'd like to get Closer to, but I can't. Right now. Okay. Thank you. There's

[36:29]

I think another couple instances of Patachara also lost her husband And her parents and her children And also went mad. So this is a recurring theme And it's sometimes hard to know What is a kind of folklore motif And, you know, Not to, not to Undercut the grief that Is felt by the loss of a child, but Anyway, there's There's at least two or three that That's the occasion, but I think that's true. I think many people come to Zen Center From loss, Abandonment and loss, you know. I think that is a recurring theme Here too. Okay, well I'd like to

[37:30]

I'd like to say from the other side That I remember And I especially, it becomes very real to me In the fact we have three babies here But I remember one time Looking at Johnny When he was about Not very old, six weeks Pretty young And I was 22 And I remember thinking If this baby died, I'd go crazy The love, the primitive protectiveness That mama lion And I remember when he was Nine months old And Eva was sharing Almost the exact same story with me That I thought if anything Or anybody tried to hurt this child I could kill to protect this child I could have the physical energy

[38:31]

To do whatever it took To protect this child And if I couldn't I'd never be able to come back And of course I was fortunate Not to ever have it But I think that there is a time When you experience That close to madness feeling After you've had a child Maybe not for everybody But for some people And also I think that for me That until I had Johnny I had never healed an abortion I had had as a young woman As a very young woman And I mean not that young But young The deep shame That I had for my lack of morals And I made that decision With a reasonably rational mind

[39:32]

But once it actually occurred It took me a number of years And I don't know what I would have What would have happened Had I not had a job I mean I think I would have lived It would have been something I would have carried on And I can't say that in a way I don't I mean I'm very aware of that And then I had a miscarriage At 43 And that was another tremendous Tremendous emotion From being pregnant at that age Knowing it was the last time And not having it And feeling funny because I was relieved You know a little bit That I didn't have to go to high school again You know and all of those kinds of things So I relate to Very intimately to the Ecstasy and the madness Of whatever this thing is called

[40:36]

Mothering, birthing, parenting So I just wanted to bring the other side Because I somewhat feel like I have, by having four pregnancies And two, one ending naturally And the other one not naturally I feel like I've had that experience Of madness in each one of them You know, that close to where I could just In fact it's giving me a hot flush as we speak The windows Thank you So last week I was left with a couple of things That I felt like I wanted to come back in on One was about the body Which we touched on And the other was this thing of duality Of purity So I kind of wanted to put out

[41:36]

Those two things And I wanted us to look at what the problem is I think we've been looking at kind of From a historical kind of How wonderful that there's this Option for women And monks and nuns both And then what is the kind of shadow side Or what's the problem And I think one of the problems Is this purity and being attached to purity And if we're pure Then other people aren't pure And who's pure and who isn't pure And when you have that When you're carrying that around I think, which is like You know, in the airport You meet somebody And you start to tell them How they should be And how they should And then you'll be the diamond You know, you'll have the You'll be a diamond Your practice will be like a diamond Like a diamond So does that mean That somebody else's practice Isn't diamond-like

[42:38]

And it really sets up A comparative kind of mind And I think it's a kind of pitfall There you might say That we should be aware of And the Mahayana, I think Became a kind of answer to this You know, this was All the old wisdom schools Had this emphasis You know, on individual practice Arhatship Attaining enlightenment for It wasn't stressed for Saving all sentient beings That was not the stress And then when the Mahayana The new wisdom schools Or Mahayana The Bodhisattva became the ideal Rather than the arhat And that was this compassion All beings can be saved Plus plants, trees and animals And it was this wide, wide thing And that's when Buddhism really spread With the Mahayana I mean, it had spread to some Southeast Asian countries But there was this split Between the laity and the ordained

[43:39]

And the laity's job was to Give alms and provide for The monks and nuns Medicines, robes Places and food And so forth And then the monks and nuns Were to purify themselves And then they were worthy Of these alms And the main purification thing Was that they were celibate And that really set them apart As well as leading a very simple life Not handling money I'm going to read some of the things Not wearing cosmetics Not wearing jewelry Not going to entertainment Not singing, not dancing Not bathing Only bathing at certain times Their lives were very circumscribed And simple And gave them optimum time To do meditation And so forth But there was this big split Whereas the Mahayana It was the Bodhisattva

[44:40]

Ideal Bodhisattva vows Laity In Mahayana countries The Bodhisattva precepts Go to both lay and priest We both take the same precepts It isn't this big split So this kind of Catholic Using the word Catholic As kind of this universal Way Buddhism spread And compassion seemed to be One of the spreadable factors This compassionate thing Seemed to be One description of it Is that The compassion The mother The prajnaparamita The perfection of wisdom Those feminine ideals You might say The way we use the word feminine Helped to spread Buddhism Through all these countries Dr. Kansa Who translated all these different things

[45:42]

Felt that The earliest religious Human religion Was the great mother And he felt that The Mahayana With compassion And prajnaparamita Met that In the deepest recesses Of the psyche Is how he puts it And it allowed it to spread Really far and wide To everybody So it's a kind of theory We can't actually say that Also By way of just a point The Aryan nations Which were Sky god Male sky god Religions The Aryan nations conquered India But they didn't conquer the south They conquered the northern parts of India But not the south So there's The earliest goddess worshipping Female, matril

[46:43]

Focal Lineages Are in the south And that's where Buddhism The prajnaparamita came I really wanted to emphasize The provisional nature Of these teachings around the body Including the 32 parts And going to the trauma grounds Because the truth Is not all You know we were talking about This stinky body It's a balancing thing And it's a provisional It's a provisional teaching In that that's not the truth either The truth is neither One nor the other The truth is This body What this body is This is actually Beyond conception Actually It's Form and emptiness The actuality of what this body is But I feel like these practices are Antidotes to Misconceptions

[47:44]

So it's a kind of a balancing thing But we shouldn't stop there It's more of a provisional Antidote medicine For Well they In the meditation texts like the Vasudhimagga If you're having Difficulties with greed And desire and lust and so forth These kinds of meditations were used As very specific Antidotes so I just wanted to bring that up because Basically our practice is A very big emphasis on The body and caring for it And the precious human body The fact that we Have been born with this Precious human body The fruit of many lifetimes Save the body which is the fruit of many lifetimes In the Koso-hotsu-ganmon So That to me is Closer to the teaching I mean closer I just didn't want us to be left

[48:48]

With this Kind of View of the body As you know Something that should be Not valued or not Thought of as being Precious That's actually when I say closer to the truth I think I'll stick with that The fact that we have precious human body Is you know Not to waste this wonderful human life Because human realm is the realm Where you can Find You can awaken So Anyway at the same time There are these practices These other very old practices So I hope that kind of addresses I think I've got that charming cadavers book up there I brought it down here So We should look at that one Yeah we can bring it down See if it's I think it's a pink one right in the middle

[49:49]

Is that charming cadavers? Yeah Horrific figurations of the feminine In Indian Buddhist Hagiographic literature Right right Great ways to discern the body's foulness You know For each of the 32 parts of the body Buddha Gosa specifies 5 forms of loathsomeness To be apprehended You start out with the hair of the head I'll just read you that because we were talking about the hair In color This is the meditation In color these hairs are loathsome They are also loathsome in shape In scent, in origin, in range For seeing anything of the color of hair Is a nice For seeing anything of the color of hair In a nice bowl of gruel or rice People get disgusted and say It's mixed with hair Take it away It's true you know Right? It's like you've got hair in your soup It's like you lose your appetite

[50:50]

Thus hairs are loathsome in color People eating at night And feeling with their hands A fiber of the swallow wart Of the rush of the shape of hairs Likewise become disgusted This is loathsomeness in shape The smell of hair Untouched by preparation Such as oil, pomade, essence of flowers And so on is very disgusting Even more disgusting than that Is the smell of hair when thrown into the fire That's true Yeah right It's a bad smell Hairs indeed may not be loathsome In color or shape But are certainly loathsome in smell A baby's excrement is the color of turmeric And is like a pile of turmeric in shape The swollen corpse of a black dog Tossed onto a trash heap Is of the color of a ripe palmyra fruit And is like a perfectly rounded drum in form With teeth resembling jasmine buds Just as these things may not be loathsome In color and in form

[51:51]

But are certainly disgusting in smell So also hair may not be loathsome In color or shape But it's the color of hair It's certainly disgusting in smell Where did they get these things? I mean really Where does this come from? It's just beyond my comprehension This was a You know the First of all the Indian mind Was very very analytical You know that's I mean if you can say such a thing As the Indian mind But anyway I'm very prone to this kind of You know Abhidharma Analyzation of things And so you take the hairs And you spend a couple of years On them and you come up with You know They're just thinking about them But I remember I actually want to get to this I'll just tell this one story I remember when I was little I found a hair in my food And it didn't bother me in the least It was just like a little fluff or something

[52:52]

It didn't bother me But it bothered my mother Take that away And then later Like many years later It happened And then I actually got sort of sick But early on It was just like as a kid It wasn't anything It didn't bother me at all But culturally or how we're socialized Hair Anyway You can look at this sometime If you want to folks I'm just reminded of Talking to A Tibetan monk in Nepal About how they deal with The fact that There was a monastery And there was all these women there And men there from the west That were in retreat And how all these young monks Dealt with all the possible Western men and women And so They spent a lot of time Doing meditations on Particularly the female body And looking through the skin

[53:53]

And looking through the bones And just totally deconstructing The notion of being that form As a sexual object And looking at it Yeah And I think that's what this is about Because a lot of the meditation instructions That were written down Or that have come down Are the ones for the monks And so if It's heterosexual monks That they're written for Then they take an object How about this one? This one is probably getting you kind of excited So let's dissect that one But it's medicine Because I think the Buddha You know Was not an ascetic He said don't go the ascetic way It's not a self-portification Kind of thing It's very particular medicine For a particular illness You could say Or a particular problem It also seems to me That I've just heard That the Dalai Lama Doesn't really understand This whole kind of Western concept

[54:54]

Of self-hatred That's so prevalent So it's really different Because here we're so used to hating ourselves And when we hear that it's like oh good It's just what I usually think No different, why just make it more so? And then you could say Well it's easy to think I'm gross Because I always have But they don't have that So I think it could be confusing But it really doesn't seem like that's I mean that's not even an issue Really And it didn't seem to be for these women either That you know They actually The reason that You know the one like say Arlie talked about Could say all that stuff Is because she really liked the body first But here you know Say if you didn't have that feeling Then it wouldn't be the right thing for you Thank you that's an excellent point I think it I think our Western view of this Is so conditioned by It's very hard to get a feel For how to work with this stuff Because it's I mean you can't even say

[55:55]

You can't say certain things to Westerners Without us having a big reaction That's all Let's see I had The different sections The Parajikas we talked about Those are the defeats The ones where if you did One of those eight You were not considered a monk Or a nun anymore And then the next grouping Are Ones where you had to have a meeting Of Sangha That would then Say what your What was the Punishment I guess you might say And I just wanted to Mention a few of these For example These are the Sangha Vashesha Dharmas And one of them is If a bhikshuni acts as a go-between Carrying messages from a man to a woman Or from a woman to a man And if by doing so she helps arrange a liaison

[56:56]

So It kind of takes It's continuing with this theme of The celibacy and the purity And not having contact between the sexes They don't go into Well they do About I told you about Being under the same coverlet They did? Were you here last week? There's admonitions about Bhikshunis not sharing the same Sleeping in the same bed Under one coverlet Under one blanket And not So I think they're also And you're also Can't give each other massages And rub each other They go into that It's also about sexual contact Between same sex as well Raising or lowering Any hot stuff either? Raising or lowering Oh yeah I remember that But I didn't remember There's a number of them

[57:59]

About bhikshunis being alone By themselves If they cross water alone Enter a village alone Sleep, live or walk alone Then you Now how about this one? Then you are Kicked out? No you're not kicked out You need to have A sangha has to meet To see what the consequences will be These are not ones where you're kicked out immediately But something must be done Venial sins is what we call them What are they? The Catholic Church Those would be called venial sins Misdemeanor Right You know we talked about The fact that if you read this It's like the dirty laundry Of the order is Some people who hadn't received the precepts They weren't allowed to read them So how about this one? If a bhikshuni ganging up together With one, two, three or even a numeral bhikshunis Says to a virtuous bhikshuni Elder sister, do not Anyway, somehow this ganging up

[59:00]

I was picturing these Women Getting a little clit going And ganging up on this other poor virtuous Sister Trying to corrupt her or something? Asking her not to Admonish another bhikshuni Who was their friend I guess Whatever that bhikshuni says We approve and we delight in it We don't want you to tell her We don't want you admonishing her It's a big long thing about this Going on for a time Exactly Amazing I don't understand The one like crossing water alone Well I think They used to be able to wander alone And then there was this rape That was one Part of the Vinaya has the background For all these How they were come to Through some kind of experience And so they weren't allowed to be alone anymore They had to go in two So you were stuck You never got to be by yourself So if you cross water

[60:00]

Enter a village alone Sleep, live or walk alone Then that bhikshuni commits a sanghavastesha Unless she refrains from her misconduct After the first offense So they give you a one chance But also if you're sleeping or living Or walking around alone That could also What are you up to? You're supposed to be with your fellow sisters Now here's another one That seems so contemporary If a bhikshuni becomes Angry and unhappy Over some small thing And says This is when I talked about Abusing the triple treasure On that Wednesday night The last of the Disparaging the triple treasure This seemed like a kind of Disparaging the triple treasure You weren't there You were there You know, taking the name Of the lord they got in vain This is the equivalent If a bhikshuni becomes Angry and unhappy

[61:01]

Over some small thing And says I forsake the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha That's kind of like that, right? It is not only with the Buddhist renunciates That we can cultivate pure conduct We can cultivate pure conduct With the Brahmin renunciates Who cultivate pure conduct too Then a bhikshuni should admonish that Bhikshuni saying elder sister You should not get angry and unhappy Over some small thing And say I forsake the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha And so forth They repeat it Because these are all oral So there is a lot of repetition But if she gives up her conduct She is okay Here is another one Suppose a bhikshuni is fond of arguing But is not good at remembering What she has argued about And afterward gets angry That's been going on forever Yes Really, really bad The next ones are Nisargika payantika dharmas

[62:04]

And these are in descending order Of seriousness And I can't remember what you have to do For these The nisargika payantika They are called the propelling downfalls They require confession To either a Sangha assembly That is a Sangha assembly That's a group of five or more Or A forfeiture of the article in question So these are a lot about robes And things If a bhikshuni already has the five robes You are allowed to have five robes And has already given away A kathina robe She may keep robes in excess of that For ten days only Unless she performs the ritual Of pure giving So it's like you've got your five And you are supposed to give one But you kind of keep it longer So if you are caught

[63:06]

Doing that kind of hoarding thing This is one of these Nisargika payantikas If a bhikshuni's robes Have been stolen, lost, burned Or swept away by water And an unrelated male or female householder Asks to give her more robes That bhikshuni should be content To accept just what she needs If she accepts more than that She commits one of these So this You know, this negotiating What do I need and what's too much This is so This is a kind of wheeler-dealer If a male or female householder Calculates the cost of a robe And gives it to the bhikshuni to buy a robe And that bhikshuni does not accept The offering at first But goes to the householder's house And says, it would be good, householder If you prepare such and such an amount To buy a robe for me So that it will be a good one She wants a little more expensive robe The other thing she can do about this

[64:08]

Is if a male or female householder Calculates the cost of a robe For a certain bhikshuni Saying, we are prepared to give Such and such an amount To buy a robe for the bhikshuni And that bhikshuni does not accept The offering at first But goes to the two householder's house And says, it would be good, householder If you prepare such and such an amount To buy a robe Putting your money together To buy me a robe So that it will be a good one This householder said I'm going to give you some of this So you say, can you guys pull your money And then I can really get a nice one You're not allowed to do that Isn't that the truth, how we think? It's exactly how we think It's so creative It's exactly how we think Then there's this long thing About a donation that came for a robe And you can't receive the money yourself You have to bring it to someone else And say, please Buy a robe for me And if that person doesn't go and buy the robe You can go and ask repeatedly The robe you were supposed to buy for me Because that donation had been given

[65:09]

And you can go like three times And then afterwards For the fourth, fifth, or sixth time You go and you stand silently You don't say anymore Okay, come on, where's my robe already You just stand there And if they still don't do it Then you have to tell the person The money you gave to me The robe never came And you should do something about it Very particular You can't personally accept gold, silver, or money Someone else can accept it for you To buy things that you have And this is a problem For current monks and nuns Because in the West It's very hard to get by Without handling money In some way Especially because in the West Mendicancy It's very hard to get by Begging is looked down upon It's not a noble It's not seen as a noble Tradition here So this is one of the

[66:12]

Hardships of people nowadays As they're trying to do this Do you use all the same Precepts that nuns and monks Are still taking? Yes, they receive these Although the practice of Meeting on the new and the full moon And people Confessing And that actually gave Eventually Became more of a ritualized Reading and reciting Rather than actually Checking out legalistically Is everybody pure And that's not done anymore I remember asking What the precepts were At a monastery in Australia And the nun said You could only know If you were a Danish Well there you go So in some ways This is kind of secret Esoteric almost Now this is about Particularly for bhikshunis If a bhikshuni promises Another bhikshuni a cloth

[67:14]

For menses But later refuses To give it to her She commits a nisargika So you need to borrow A tampon from somebody And they promise Anyway So you can imagine it happening And going to the Buddha To say so and so said She's going to give me a pad And she didn't Right? I know Poor Buddha Right I'll work it out Aren't there tons of stories About that? Of the complaints going to The teacher These are the stories But I mean really The actual incident Of what the Buddha said In response to these things There are stories No not in here There's a couple in here It's in another part of the Vinaya Is this interesting to you all? Yeah ATM card counts For handling money Or credit cards

[68:15]

For a modern monk But can a monk Can Hajan Amaro Can he do credit cards? I'm not sure I know that he had assistants Who carried money for him And drove for him He can't drive So I'm not sure He can't touch people Say that again? He doesn't touch people That's another thing in the West Where shaking hands It's just so common Or as Lekshe says in Hawaii You receive lays from people And hug on both sides And embracing Is completely common in Hawaii And you know For her So it's hard To you know To refuse to shake hands Is a big affront right? Although I've seen Hajan Amaro Shake hands actually Maybe it wasn't a woman Anyway The other thing about these

[69:17]

Is that they're flexible In that the spirit of them Can be kept And they can be Modified for nowadays Like there's one about You can't ride on elephants So in that time Elephants were for the very rich Nobility was a very high status thing So maybe nowadays You don't ride in stretch limos Or something Some kind of equivalent That has the same feeling It wouldn't be a hard thing Not to ride on elephants Not that one Well what if you went to the circus? I'd ride on an elephant If I had the opportunity So the next group Are the Payantika Dharmas And these You need to have self-confession Or self-imposed Confinement For these These I think Are pretty serious If a bhikshuni deliberately

[70:19]

Tells a lie If a bhikshuni slanders These are in our Bodhisattva Lying and slandering Uses divisive words If she sleeps overnight In the same room with a man Sleeps overnight for more than Three nights in the same room With a woman who has not Received the full precepts Right? So here's somebody you're sleeping with Who hasn't taken the same vows And that puts yourself in jeopardy I guess if they're not committed to it That means she can't stay home either, right? With your family I suppose not, yeah If a bhikshuni recites The sutras together with someone Who has not received the full precepts She commits a payantika Let's see which ones If a bhikshuni sits This one I kind of I got a little laugh out of it If a bhikshuni sits or lies down On a rope bed or a wooden bed That has loose legs on an upper story She commits a payantika So you can imagine what happened there The loose legs

[71:22]

She sat on and fell off The upper story, I don't know I'm interested in how you can Precept like I know, I know If you verbally abuse someone Speak evasive words Destroy ghosts and spirits in a village Or if you do some exorcism You're not supposed to do that Now here's one that I marked Because this happened to somebody In our sangha It has to do with how you treat Donations and invitations And you may have your own story about this But if a bhikshuni has already Accepted an invitation And if later she goes to another house Before or after meal time Without informing the other bhikshunis Unless it is an allowable time She commits a payantika Maybe that wasn't the one Well the thing that happened in real life Was someone invited a member of our sangha It was a donor

[72:23]

To have lunch with him And he said yes And then he broke the date Because he kind of didn't want to Because the guy was kind of boring But then he went out anyway With somebody else And the guy was at that restaurant And this was a major donor To Zen Center One of our major, major donors And I won't tell you who it is Of course, but I won't tell you either But he completely cut off All his support to Zen Center And there was no amount of amends That we could make I remember we The abbot spoke with him at the time And we brought gifts And we tried to And it just made no difference It was a major affront As you can imagine So that person felt bad for the rest of their life That they had, yeah And it was very petty Kind of, you know I kind of don't want to But I want to go out anyway And so That kind of thing, which seems so little You know, accept an invitation And go out to the movie with somebody else

[73:24]

Or you would say no Even if it wasn't a donor Right, but in this case So this is a little different This is accept an invitation And then later go to another house Before or after mealtime It means that you get double portions I think that's what this is referring to Or I was thinking of Like taking advantage of The time out to like Fit in some other pleasurable activities Yeah, that's right Before or after, and you don't tell you So where is she? Like telling my mom I had stuff to do after school And going out and hanging out with friends And smoking cigarettes and stuff like that Yeah, yeah This is one that I found Just basic meanness But also something I Also could imagine Has happened to me and to others If a bhikshuni says to another bhikshuni Elder sister, if you go with me to the village I will give you food And the bhikshuni goes with her to the village But she does not give that bhikshuni food But says elder sister, go away I do not want to sit together with you

[74:27]

It is unpleasant to talk with you It is pleasant to sit alone and talk by myself And if for no other reason she sends her away She commits a payatika Can you imagine it? It's like, I just don't want She's boring I don't want to sit with you I want to go be by myself Get out of here It's just, in terms of harmony In the sangha And taking care of one another And Manners Basic manners You might say So it's noted here These are ones about If you're two or three days You're in a military camp Why you'd be there, I don't know And you should watch military maneuvers or parades Or the powerful movement of troops Elephants or horses You commit one of these If you drink intoxicants If you play in water If a bhikshuni plays in water Now this came up at this meeting

[75:27]

With these monks and nuns Where this one guy I don't know if he was planning on disrobing or what But he was kind of complaining about He said, I can't get enough exercise I can't go swimming So I asked Achan Amaro Who's the head of this forest monastery And Norman's good friend And he's come to bring out I said, can't you swim? I would think that for someone's good health Taking care of the precious body You should be able to swim And he said, well it's not that you can't swim But you have to swim It can't be in a public pool or beach Where there's men and women together You can swim by yourself And you can swim with other monks So how everything is circumscribed But playing in water You can picture Splashing and playing around Sorry If a bhikshuni strikes someone with her hand Here's about bathing A bhikshuni who is not sick May bathe once every half month

[76:30]

If she bathes More than that She commits a payantika Unless it is at an allowable time The allowable times are when it is hot Which seems like it would be pretty often in India When she is sick When she works When it is very windy When it is raining And when she is traveling These are the times So then I thought Well it's not really going to be once Every half month If it's a hot day you can You know so they don't mention during their mensa No Interesting If a bhikshuni who is not sick To warm her body Makes a fire in an open place Or if she tells someone else to do so Except at allowable times I suppose allowable times Well it's hard to say They don't say Now here's one This is a joke This is some kind of practical joke If a bhikshuni hides another bhikshuni's alms bowl Robes her sitting mat

[77:32]

Needle container Or tells someone else to do so Even should she do it for fun She commits a panick Jennifer Schneider She used to do that all the time Jennifer Schneider Would hide your bowls She'd hide everything during I always want to say All souls day When I read these things I really become catholic I mean this reminds me so much of listening to the nuts When I was growing up There's a little something in here What's this interesting I'm doing this class I remember as a little kid Listening to these rules This is voluntary It does help I like this one If a bhikshuni knows That the parties to a dispute Have already repented But afterward reopens the matter She commits Oh weren't you two Didn't you Just for the Get things going It's so boring

[78:32]

Fighting again I thought that was such It's so subtle They've already repented And she reopens Yeah of course Let's see If a bhikshuni Strikes another bhikshuni Out of anger and resentment Seizes another bhikshuni With her hands out of anger and resentment Out of anger and resentment Unfoundedly accuses someone of committing Something Okay If a bhikshuni eats garlic She commits a payantika If a bhikshuni shaves the hair In three places She commits a payantika Which places Under the arms and pubic hair Three places If she shaves the hair in three places She commits a payantika There are three places she shouldn't shave her hair I thought the I thought the monks

[79:33]

Shaved everything Eyebrows Arms Ajahn Amaro Shaves his eyebrows He does his arms Maybe those you can shave But you're not supposed to shave the hair in three places One Two Three Maybe because that's vanity Maybe because that's a form of vanity Or maybe that was That was more attractive Or something I mean it should increase the women Shave How about this one Well that part in particular I think this one May have to do Well anyway you can decide for yourself If a bhikshuni cleans her vagina with water She should not use more than The first finger joint of two fingers I think this has to do With masturbation probably If she exceeds that she commits a payantika Here this one If a bhikshuni makes a male organ

[80:34]

Out of glue She commits a payantika Laughter Ok Laughter [...] He doesn't say anything about clay Or glue Laughter You can see why they wouldn't want us to read this Laughter And then if bhikshunis Pat each other's sex organs Yeah these are the ones Laughter How about this? If a vikshuni relieves herself in a pot at night and throws it over the wall in the daytime without looking. Oh dear. Oh my god, there's some funny ones because the rest are so serious. Yeah. Then there's a whole bunch about being in a screened place with a man. Oh, we're

[81:36]

done. Oh, darn it. The other, I'm going to skip through these because if you bathe naked in a river, a spring, or a stream, or a pond, your bathing cloth should be a regulated size. If a vikshuni, knowing a woman is pregnant, gives her the full precepts, she commits a One thing about the, there's the novice nuns and the novice monks, the full ordained nuns, the full ordained monks, the lay men and women. And then there's another probationary status for nuns, which I just read in a commentary, was probably after they become novices, then before they take full ordination, there's two more years to see whether or not they may be pregnant. So there's an extra probationary period for nuns only.

[82:43]

Two years. Two years in case she's pregnant, has the child and wants to give it up or whatever. It takes that long to get everything settled and then she can take full ordination. So first you become a novice and then there's these two years of probationary then. If a vikshuni, knowing a woman who has a nursing child, gives her the full precepts, she commits. Knowing a woman who is less than 20 years old and gives her the full precepts, she commits a payantika. I mean, if she's pregnant, she's been... Right, this is before, if she gets the full precepts. Yeah, because they, I mean, people ordained, of course, after, took the full precepts after being married and after being, you know. So here's somebody who says, I want to be ordained. And if you know she's pregnant at the time, you won't give, or if she's nursing a child. So she has to be free to do this. What were the precepts for novices though? About being too young? No. Oh, the novices. You take ten. You take ten precepts, which

[83:49]

are the first five of, which are our first five, just about, and then the other ones are not sleeping on a high bed, not wearing cosmetics and jewelry, not singing and dancing. Anyway, there's ten. I haven't written them down. I don't know in my heart. Yeah, and then the full ordination is all of these. Okay, it's time to end, but I just wanted to skip to these. The last group are the Shaik Shadamas, which there's no penalty. They're just called Rules of Etiquette. And there's, it's just about how, it's like priestcraft. It's like nunscraft, how you wear your robes, how you eat. A lot of our orioke practice is right in here. For example, you know, the robe should be worn neatly. I mean, we have robes should, Dogen in Fukanza Zangi, the robe should be arranged neatly, right? The underskirt ought to be worn neatly, should be learned. The five robes ought to be worn neatly. This is just kind of standard.

[84:50]

You wear your robes carefully and neatly. A lot of things about robes. Do not cover your head with your robe and enter a layperson's house. Do not enter and sit in a layperson's house. Then about your deportment, you know. Do not enter and sit in a layperson's house jumping. Do not squat in a layperson's house. First it says, don't enter a layperson's house jumping. Then don't enter and sit jumping. Don't play leapfrog. Don't enter and sit in a layperson's house with your body swinging, with your arms hanging down, with your arms. You have to have your body well covered. Don't, you know, glancing left and right. Do not enter a layperson's house glancing left and right. When you come, you're invited, you know, they're inviting you and giving you a meal and you're supposed to do teachings and you go and you're looking all around the house. This isn't, this is not the deportment, you know. You enter quietly. Do not enter a house joking and laughing.

[85:54]

Accept food mindfully. Accept food within the capacity of the alms bowl. Accept soup within the capacity of the alms bowl, you know. Accept soup and rice in equal amounts. Accept food in order. See, orioke is, it's based on, it's the kind of reconfiguration of these very rules, I think, you know, where you eat one, two, three down your bowls and then you come back and eat one, two, three. You don't eat all one bowl for your orioke practice. You eat some of each. You eat in order. Do not cover the soup with rice or the rice with soup. Do not look and compare the food in the bowl of another sitting nearby. They've got more tofu, you know. Pay undivided attention to the alms bowl while eating. Do not put too much food in your mouth while eating. Do not talk with food in your mouth. I mean, some of them do not throw food in the air and catch it in your mouth. You can imagine, you know, sitting around with your alms bowl.

[87:00]

Do not fill up your cheeks with food while eating. Do not make a sound while chewing your food. Do not slurp food. Do not lap up food with the tongue and so on. Lots and lots. Don't wear leather. Don't teach dharma to all these different people wearing leather, people wearing wooden shoes, people riding in a vehicle or on an animal, unless they're sick. And I think it's because, or with somebody lying down, you don't teach dharma to them. It's to show the proper respect for the dharma, the person needs to be in proper receptive mode and ready to hear instead of riding on an elephant or whatever. Do not dump in a lay person's house water used for washing your bowl. You know, you take the spirit water and you bring it out to, you don't sort of dump it on them. So there's a lot of these. There's, I think, hundreds. There's a hundred. Do not teach dharma

[88:04]

to a person carrying a spear or a sword or holding a stick. Do not put alms bowls in your alms bowl inside a bag, hang it on a pole and carry it on your shoulder while walking. Sort of like a hobo, you know, which is, you know, we say about our orioke bowls, you carry them a certain way and they're placed, you don't put them on the floor or the shoe rack. So a lot of these things come out of the earliest, the earliest practices. So that's all for, that's all for now. Thank you all very much. It feels like we just scratched the surface. I know we have, and we kind of zipped through this pretty quickly too. May I attention you.

[89:05]

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