This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. This summer I was thinking about the end of the practice periods at Tassahar when we have a ceremony for the head seat, the Shisou. And the case that's usually brought up is the case of Bodhidharma. Having a conversation with Emperor Wu of Liang Dynasty in China. And sometimes in the Shusou ceremonies here in Green Gulch, and probably City Center too, but particularly I think about here in Green Gulch, the questions often asked at some point in the ceremony, what does this ceremony have to do with all the suffering in the world?

[01:27]

Even more than that, how does this monastic practice of having practice training periods and practice periods, how does this practice period form relate to all the suffering beings who are not participating in the practice period? Sometimes when I've heard that question, I've thought... that the person asking the question did not understand or thought maybe that this form of sitting and living together and practicing these forms didn't help the suffering beings all over the world. But then sometimes I thought, no, they're just a bodhisattva asking this question for our benefit to have us think about this. But not just how does, for example, the sitting practice relate to the suffering of the world, but how do you feel about the sitting practice relating to the suffering of the world?

[02:53]

Some people think that the Bodhidharma sitting quietly for nine years after he had his talk with the emperor, that that was Avlokiteshvara Bodhisattva sitting for nine years, that that was Bodhidharma's understanding of how to live compassionately in this world. that this was the way he wished, this is the form he wished to use for nine years to transform this world. They had suffering beings in the sixth century in China too. I guess there weren't as many humans on the planet at that time, but there was lots of suffering among the humans and non-humans. from what I've heard.

[04:07]

So it looks like this ancestor in the tradition chose and believed in this form of practice as the way he wanted to transform the world, as the way he wanted to practice as a bodhisattva. So I thought, let's ask at the beginning of the practice period, ourselves and each other, do we feel that this sitting practice is one of the ways to beneficially transform the world? Is that what we're doing? Are we betting on Bodhidharma's practice as one of the good ways? to transform the world of suffering.

[05:13]

I just recently ran across a little talk by Uchiyama Roshi. And he said that he believes in Bodhidharma's practice. He said, my practice, I want my practice to be the same as Bodhidharma's practice. I believe that if people sit authentically, that this transforms the world. And he sent three of his disciples to America back in the 70s, early 70s, He sent them to Massachusetts and told them just to sit. And told them, he said, don't advertise, don't try to get a lot of students, just sit.

[06:22]

And they did that for quite a few years. Did that transform the world? That was Uchiyama Roshi's bet, that it would. Some people outside this monastery will say, you people at Tassajara and Green Gulch and City Center are transforming the world by sitting quietly and unmovingly. You are transforming the world. You're an inspiration to me in my life. And many people are inspired to live virtuous lives because you're sitting there. People will say things like that. But really, I don't know how it works. Just because they say that doesn't mean that's the way it works. It's good to hear that they're inspired.

[07:25]

But they actually may feel inspired by some coffee they drank. Who knows? Now, coming to Tazahara, I'm bringing this up to you at the beginning. Do you wish to practice this practice of this ancestor, which seems to be the practice of his descendants, down to present-day Tazahara, where we still bring this case up? And will we still practice sitting quite a bit? And it seems auspicious that now, I believe tomorrow, although the Eno seems to disagree with me, we have a bodhidharma ceremony. So I think it's on the fourth and the fifth, and the Eno thinks it's on the fifth and the sixth.

[08:35]

And so we'll work this out, maybe. I also have some large books it's say 4th and 5th so we have this ceremony coming up where we celebrate or we memorialize the passing of bodhidharma into nirvana tomorrow and the next day so in the morning tomorrow we'll do the memorial for Suzuki Rashi and then the evening we start the memorial for Bodhidharma Suzuki Rashi died on the 4th of December Bodhidharma died on the 5th of something I don't know what month it was

[09:45]

There's stories about Bodhidharma. And there is not much clear evidence that the person Bodhidharma, that this monk actually is a historical figure. That the stories of him actually are one person. He might actually be a number of Buddhist monks combined in a way. that the Zen tradition finds really encouraging. When I was studying the Platform Sutra here at Tazahara in the spring of 1970, I think it was the spring of 1970, it might have been 1969, but anyway, I went to Katagira Roshi and I said that the research of the Zen lineage which was discussed in the introduction to the Platform Sutra, says that there's not really much evidence that Bodhidharma, that this figure existed.

[10:59]

And Katagiri Roshi said, 50 years from now, people will probably say that Katagiri didn't exist. But still, these stories may be useful. I was in China one time and talking to somebody who was presented as a Buddhist scholar, and we were in a city in China and he said that Bodhidharma came through this town on his way from visiting Emperor Wu of Liang to go to Shaolin Monastery. So in China there's, among some Buddhists, there's details of the Bodhidharma story about what towns he went through. So we have this figure which may not have existed, but we have details about what towns he went through as he was traveling around China and what he had for lunch. And in the book

[12:12]

called The Transmission of the Light, a book where another one of our ancestors, Keizan Jokin Dayosho, goes through the lineage from Shakti Muni up to the second ancestor in Japan. and he consults stories from other Chinese collections of stories of this lineage and then gives talks about these enlightenment stories so he has a story of Bodhidharma and he has a story of Bodhidharma's teacher And he has a story of Bodhidharma's student.

[13:14]

Bodhidharma's teacher's name is Prajnatara. And... Apparently the etymology of Prajnatara is he who or that which brings Prajna across. In parenthesis, from past lives. So part of Prajnatara's story is about where he meets his teacher and his teacher asked him if he could remember when they met before. And Prajnatara told his teacher that, yeah, in past lives, you gave discourses, you expounded the Maha Prajnaparamita teaching, and I recited the teaching.

[14:34]

I remember that. So he was given the name Prajnatara. There was a king in India who was said to be more than, had a more than ordinary devotion to the triple treasure. And he was something of a student of Prajnatara. And he gave Prajnatara a precious jewel. And this king had three sons, Chanda Vimala Tara, Punya Tara, and Bodhi Tara.

[15:35]

So maybe the same Tara. Bodhi Tara, that which brings Bodhi across. Punya Tara, that which brings merit across. Chanda Vimala, that which brings pure Chanda across. So these three sons. The youngest one is the one who will later have his name changed from Bodhitara to Bodhidharma. And the king questions the three sons about this jewel. and whether it's, you know, the best jewel. And the first two sons think it is, and the third son thinks that it's not. And so Prajnatara has this conversation with Bodhitara, and Bodhitara already demonstrates a deep interest

[16:47]

an understanding of Dharma and Prajnatara sees Bodhitara as a potential as we say vessel or container for Dharma and when Bodhitara's father dies Bodhitara sat for seven days at his father's funeral buyer. And then afterwards, he went and sat for seven days at Prajnatara's room. And he asked to become a monk, and Prajnatara... gave him full ordination.

[17:48]

And then they studied closely together. And Prajnatara taught bodhitara the practice of sitting, meditation. They practiced intimately together for 40 years, according to this story. During that time, Prajnatara told Bodhidharma that 67 years after his death, he should go to China. And also in this 40 years of study together, Prajnatara transmitted the Dharma to Bodhitara, and at the time of transmitting the Dharma to Bodhitara, he changed his name to Bodhidharma, now that he was a vessel for Dharma.

[19:20]

And then Prajnatara had two main disciples. The other main disciple was called Bodhisena. And so Bodhisena and Bodhidharma taught together in India for 61 years. And then Bodhidharma said, the time is ripe for me to go to China. And it says in the story that he went to tell a king that he was bought to leave. His father was a king. Bodhidharma was a prince, an Indian prince. His father was a king. But this is not his father. His father had died a hundred years before, approximately. But he had a relationship with some king, and he felt obliged to inform the king that he was going to leave India and go to China.

[20:42]

Perhaps he wanted the king to give him a boat, which the king did. And the king actually escorted him to the port, and the king was very sad to have this great teacher leave India. And he said, you should come back, and Bodhidharma said that he would. And the king said, when you get to China, don't stay in the south. So Bodhidharma traveled to India, and it took him a while to get there, so that maybe he didn't arrive before 67 years had passed from the death of his teacher, Prajnatara. And when he arrived, if you think about this story, maybe this monk arrived on this ship and maybe thought this is pretty impressive that this monk has come from India on a ship.

[21:49]

Maybe a ship specially set up just to bring him to China so that... Maybe, according to the story, it would make some sense that he would actually be able to have a meeting with the emperor of the Liang dynasty, which was in the southern part of China. So the story is he had this interview or this audience with the teacher, with the emperor, who was very committed to Buddhism. And the emperor said to him, you know, had built and sponsored... many monasteries to be built for monks and nuns, and also was a student and had actually written treatises on Buddhism himself. So he asked Bodhidharma, you know, how much merit did I get for all this work I've done for Buddhism? And Bodhidharma says, no merit. And the emperor was, you know, probably shaken by that.

[22:57]

and said, well, what's the highest meaning of the holy truths? And Bodhidharma said, vast emptiness, no holy. And the emperor says, who is this standing before me? And Bodhidharma said, don't know. And then he left. And again, people... wonder, why didn't he stay and give the emperor a little bit more instruction? But anyway, he wasn't supposed to stay in the south. That was one reason. And also, maybe he thought the emperor was too busy to be a good student. So he went north to a place called Shaolin is one name for the place, which means little forest. Another name for it is Shaoxi or Shaoxi. So he went to this place, which was apparently an already established practice place, and he practiced there, but all he did was sit.

[24:07]

Our ancestor Kezon says he was quiet, and... and didn't teach boisterously for nine years. Maybe he wasn't boisterous after nine years either, but he says he did not speak boisterously about the Dharma for nine years. And this also says in this story that the other monks in the monastery thought he was kind of unusual or strange to be sitting so much so there's a story in the transmission of the light about Bodhidharma and uh

[25:21]

There's another little part about it where it's actually Prajnatara gave Bodhidharma some verses before he left, before he died. And one of the verses goes, you will journey across the water and encounter a sheep. And the interpretation is the sheep is the emperor. of Liang. Alone, you will cross a river secretly in the dark. That's the Yangtze which he crossed on his way to Shaolin. And there's also, you may be seeing pictures of Bodhidharma riding across water on a reed, on reeds. And Kezan Zenzenji said, it's a mistake to think that he went across the river on one piece of reed, on a single reed stalk. That's not correct.

[26:22]

You shouldn't take it literally. But there's some very nice pictures of Bodhidharma. There's actually one in the city center. Have you seen that one? He's riding across on a reed, a leaf of a reed. Have you seen that? No? They hang out in the entryway sometimes of the city center. He's Bodhidharma riding across on a reed. as opposed to what Kezan Zen said, that what it really means is that he went across on a boat. And they went to Shaolin. And then people came to visit him. And one of the people who came to visit him is a person we call the second ancestor of Zen, Hoika. So often some of us would think about the stories that Bodhidham is sitting there, facing the wall for nine years, and Hueca comes to see him while he's sitting.

[27:41]

And that's one version of the story you could have. Or it could be that he sat for nine years, and then he began teaching after... after that nine years of intense concentration on sitting. A lot of different ways you could imagine that. So this monk comes to see him and wants him to, you know, wants his help, right? So one story is he comes and he tells Bodhidharma, help me. And Bodhidharma won't say anything to him. Really. And he stands there.

[28:48]

in the snow in the courtyard outside of where Bodhidharma is sitting in his room so somehow they can have a conversation he's either coming in and talking to him and going back out in the snow or he's talking to him, he's standing in the snow and yelling at him and Bodhidharma really won't let him into the room to receive instruction he won't allow him to enter the room which is an expression for letting someone become a student. So we just finished what we call Tangadio here. And Tanga means itinerant monk. So the future second ancestor was an itinerant monk. He was traveling around. He traveled to see Bodhidharma. And so, and ryo means room.

[29:56]

So the tanga ryo is the room for the itinerant monks. So you can stay in this room as you're traveling around. Different monasteries will have a room for you to stay in on your travels. But if you want to actually enter the room of the monastery, you might have to stay in the room for a long time. In this story, the room was the courtyard. the itinerant monk was being housed in the courtyard in the snow. So he's standing outside, it's snowing, the snow is accumulating up to his waist, stands there all night, this is his tanga dio. And the next morning, Bodhidharma still won't accept him as a student. And says, basically, you know, you're just not sincere enough. It wouldn't be good for me to accept you. Your practice is too shaky. So then the story says that Hawaica took a sharp sword.

[31:11]

I guess they had swords in the snow there, but more likely he was carrying a sword. And by the way, this string here on our robes, these strings, these are strings that used to hold swords. And we keep the strings to show that we no longer carry swords. But the people who used to wear these robes used to carry swords. So he took his sword out and cut his arm off. And then Bodhidharma said, okay. I guess you're really sincere. You can enter the room. So at the end of Tangariya, we said, okay, you're sincere. We should have a separate room, but anyway, now you're allowed to enter the practice hall as a regular practitioner because you demonstrated.

[32:18]

So in a sense, that That story is kind of like the classical locus of this kind of initiation, of demonstrating that you're really settled and now you can enter the room. So he entered the room and then Huayka studied with Bodhidharma, I would say, intimately for a pretty long time. So I'd like to say at this point that I'm bringing up the question about how does this sitting transform the world? And then the other thing I'm bringing up is, which I now bring up, is that this sitting that Bodhidharma did

[33:19]

can be taken literally, and I think it should be taken literally, and we literally enact it as a ritual. But also, we also take it non-literally. And we, in a non-literal way, we enact it as a ritual also. For example, we enact it non-literally as a ritual by cleaning the temple, by cooking meals, by talking to the teacher. Having a conversation with the teacher is one of the rituals of Zen and that is a non-literal enactment

[34:21]

of facing the wall for nine years. So in this tradition of Bodhidharma, everything we do here is non-literally. Everything we do except sitting facing the wall, we do sit facing the wall. That is a literal ritual enactment of Bodhidharma's practice. which was taught to him by his teacher in India. But according to this tradition of bodhidharma, all the other things we do are non-literal enactments of facing the wall for nine years. So we don't just do the literal sitting upright facing the wall. we practice that same practice in many other forms which are not literally facing the wall.

[35:33]

And Bodhidharma, when it says he sat facing the wall for nine years, he did not literally sit and face the wall for nine years. Now, some people... But he did literally face the wall for nine years, part of the nine years. But other parts of the nine years, he was non-literally facing the wall. So we have to literally face the wall to inherit the tradition and carry on the tradition. But also, that's just one level of carrying on the tradition. The next level of carrying on the tradition is we have to non-literally enact the tradition. And then the next level of the tradition, of transmitting the tradition of Buddha's wisdom, of Bodhidharma's wisdom, is we have to do both literal and non-literal at the same time.

[36:41]

So now we have in modern, in fairly modern times, we have the expression just sit. But again, we literally just sit. But also, we non-literally just sit. That means that no matter what you're doing in this monastery or on the streets of San Francisco, no matter what you're doing, you're practicing just sitting. What you're doing is lining up with the tradition of just sitting no matter where you are, no matter what you're doing. I noticed this when I first came to San Francisco. It was the fall of 1968, after I'd been in Zen Center for a while, and I was at Macy's. I don't know if I was doing Christmas shopping, but I think it was Christmas shopping time.

[37:50]

I don't know what I was doing, but it was Christmas time. It was the pre-Christmas time, and I was at Macy's, and I noticed it came to my consciousness that it was about 5.30 in the afternoon, which is the time of Zazen at Sokoji Temple, where Zen Center was. And I thought, oh, I'm missing Zazen. But then I thought, I've never thought that before when I've been shopping. I realized the only reason why I was thinking that I was missing zazen was because I practice zazen at 5.30 every afternoon at the temple. So when we're shopping, if you're practicing Bodhidharma's way, you're practicing zazen at Macy's when you're at Macy's. However, you don't have to practice shopping at Macy's when you're in the zendo. You can, but you don't have to.

[38:51]

So Bodhidharma is teaching the second ancestor how to face the wall no matter what he's doing. The future second ancestor demonstrates his sincerity and he's allowed into the teaching room and the teacher teaches him. And the teacher teaches him, for example, the teacher said, outwardly, have no involvements. Inwardly, no coughing or sighing in the mind. He gave him that instruction. We were told. This is an instruction which is given in intimacy between somebody who wants to study with somebody else, and has demonstrated that he's really sincere about that, and the teacher is, like, giving him instruction in this intimacy.

[40:10]

And they work on this instruction for seven years, supposedly. When he first gave the instruction, the Quaker... His name's not Vika yet, but anyway, the future second ancestor doesn't understand how to practice that. So he keeps, but they keep in contact, and Bodhidharma keeps giving him feedback on his understanding of this practice. And after seven years, Vika says, finally, I have no involvements. In other words, finally, I'm practicing facing the wall for nine years. I'm doing your practice finally. And Bodhidharma says, you haven't slipped into extinction or nihilism, have you?

[41:21]

In other words, this is like I'm not involved with anything externally or internally. But this isn't that you're becoming nihilistic, is it? You're still devoted to the welfare of all these beings you're not involved with, right? So again, this is an expression, according to my understanding, today, is that when Bodhidharma says, have no involvement, he's teaching his student how to be truly compassionate. He's saying intimacy with all beings and with me means you're not involved with me. It means you're totally committed to me and I'm totally committed to you and we have no involvement. We're completely not attached to each other and completely devoted to each other and I'm teaching you how to do this with everybody.

[42:24]

And finally Hueca says Now, I am totally committed to you and all beings, and I'm not involved with you or any beings. And also, I'm totally committed to understand my mind, and I'm not grasping my mind either. And Bodhidharma says, you're not getting nihilistic, are you? And Huayca said, no. And Bodhidharma says, prove it. And Huayca says, I'm always clearly aware And no words can reach it. And Bodhidharma says, this is the body of the ancestors. This is the essential body of the ancestors. Have no doubt. You have understood my practice. Have no doubt. And they continued to practice intimately after that for some time.

[43:30]

And then Bodhidharma said, inwardly, the Dharma has been conveyed to you through our relationship. The teacher says, now you have the Dharma. The student says, well, what happened? Where is it? Inwardly, the Dharma has been conveyed to you. Now, externally, I give you the robe and the bowl. Before the practice period started, I got a question from Jim Fitton. What text we might be looking at this practice period?

[44:37]

And I thought, yeah, we're going to look at the text of Bodhidharma. But another text that I offer you is this text. The text is a question. This is a question which the 41st ancestor in our lineage asked the future 42nd ancestor. The 41st ancestor asked the 42nd ancestor, what is the business beneath the patch robe? That's this question. So in the story of Bodhidharma, when Bodhidharma gives his disciple the robe, the business that's under the robe is the Dharma, which they have realized together.

[45:40]

They also say, what's the business under the bowls? So in the story... of the 41st and 42nd ancestor when the 41st ancestor says what's the business under the robe the student stands and does not say anything and then the teacher says to be practicing the Buddha Dharma and not reach this inner realm under the robe He's the most miserable thing. Then the student says to the teacher, Master, what is the business beneath the patch robe? And the teacher says, Intimacy.

[46:45]

And the student woke up greatly. But I think that's not as good as to say the student and the teacher woke up together. Because that's what is the business under the patch robe, is to wake up together. And the student showed... how he was moved. The teacher said, now that you understand, can you express it? And the student said, yes. And the student said to the teacher, ask me the question again. And the teacher said, what is the business beneath the patch robe? And the student said, intimacy. And the teacher said, intimate being, being intimate.

[47:58]

So I'm starting out by saying that what is the business under the sky over Tassajara Monastery? The business, of course, is enlightenment. That's the business of this place. What's the business of this place? The business of this place is facing the wall for nine years. The business of this place is the intimacy of the ancestors. That's the business here. And intimacy, enlightenment, and no involvement go together. The business's place is not to intimately cling to each other. The business's place is to be intimately devoted to each other without grasping.

[49:06]

And we have to train intimately together in order to be close and not attached. Easy for us to be attached even for people that we're not so close to. And how do we practice intimacy in this practice setting? We practice it with forms. All these forms, like sitting upright facing the wall, like using eating bowls, like wearing robes. Part of what I want to work with you on this practice period is these forms to realize intimacy. So one form is the form of going into the room to meet the teacher.

[50:15]

So during this practice period, I hope that all of you keep in touch with one of the teachers in this monastery. So there's practice instructors. I think Judith is a practice instructor. Mako serves as a practice instructor. Kathy serves as a practice instructor. Is that right? You're available for people to keep in touch with you about their practice. Is that right? Hmm? And then there's a tonto. You can keep in touch with the tonto. And then there's the abiding teacher, Leslie James. You can keep in touch with her about your practice. And you can also keep in touch with me. And you can let me know if you want me to keep in touch with you. For example, kitchen left, but maybe somebody could tell the kitchen about this.

[51:26]

Some people would like me to touch them. Some people would like me to touch their bodies when they're sitting to give them some postural suggestions. I don't call it postural correction because your postures are already perfect, right? But still, even though you're perfect, I can still make suggestions because since you're so perfect, you can handle a few suggestions, right? Even imperfect people can welcome suggestions, all the more perfect ones. So for those of you who are perfect and for those of you who are imperfect, I could offer you some suggestions while you're sitting. However, I don't want to touch you if you don't want to be touched. So if you don't want me to touch you while you're sitting, you could let the attendant, Brian, know. or the ino.

[52:28]

Let them know if you don't want me to touch your back and your mudra and stuff like that. This is an example of one of the opportunities of intimacy, physical interaction around the form of sitting. Also, that same practice period where I went to Katagiri Roshi and... told him my concerns about Bodhidharma not existing I also asked him if I could sit in his room while he was studying and then have him look at me every now and then and tell me how my posture was and he said okay so I did that one day I sat while he was studying and he gave me feedback on my posture and it's been bad ever since No, just kidding.

[53:32]

It's been perfect ever since. Just like yours. So meeting with a teacher is one of the forms we use to develop intimacy. Working on our posture together with a teacher is one of the ways we develop intimacy. Working on other forms other ways so now I have something to show you here now a change is a change in the form when when we first had the zendo here where the student eating area is we except for Suzuki Roshi and whoever else was sitting up on the We had a platform which was like an altar, Tan. At the end of the room, there was a platform.

[54:36]

So Suzuki Roshi and some other teachers might sit up there, but almost all the monks sat on the floor. So we developed a way of folding our orioki wrapper for being on the floor. But then when most of us moved up to the tan, and now for this practice period, most of the people during meals are on the tans. The way of folding the cloth when you're on the tan is different. So the way of doing it on the tan is like this. You have the front part of the wrapping cloth just hang straight down. If you're on the floor and it hangs straight down, it's out on the floor, you know, servers will step on it or something. But on the taan, it just hangs straight down. So you just let it hang straight down, and then you do the back side, and the right side, or the left side, and the right side.

[55:44]

It's like that. You might find this more difficult for some period of time, but we are, I've discussed this with various people throughout the universe, and they agree that we will now have this be the form on the taan for Orioki cloth. Another form which I'd like to show you, and again, so this is like standard Zen Center, ordeoki, cloth, okay? But this other form I'd like to show you is a form, can you see it? This is the cloth thing, can you see it? This other form, I don't know if everyone agrees on this, but I just wanted to show you, this is the way I learned to lift the bowl at the time of the entire

[56:49]

of the initial raising of the bowl during the meal. This is the most ceremonial moment of offering or of gesturing to receive the offering. So the way I was taught to do it is like this. So is it the heels of my hands? Are those the heels down there? They're actually touching, you see. I've seen some people are doing it this way, but some people are doing it with the hands like this, right? So I'm just suggesting that you actually bring this into like this. So it's like a lotus floor. So this is for this special offering when we raise it up at the beginning of the meal. And also I remember...

[57:51]

For many years I've been looking at that guy that I see up there. He's got a big nose. Okay, so I just wanted to show you that's the way I was taught. Now, I do not do it this way every time I pick it up. Just that one time. And at the end of the meal or when you lift the beginning too, all right? No, the end. At the end of the meal when you lift the... the wrapped cloth up. At that time, I do not go back up into this thing because it's just, there's not much time, right? You're kind of in a rush. And if you try to get this into that full mudra thing, you might drop your bowls. So at that time, I just lift it up like this and set it down so that I'm not fumbling with it. and also it's harder to do it with the cloth.

[58:56]

So this is an example of a form that we use to develop intimacy, which means a form to put to rest involvements externally and put to rest attachments internally. Also, I think there is an agreed-upon official way of tying the knot, if you want to watch.

[60:04]

This part I think everybody does, right? And like this, and then like this, and like this, and like this, and like that. And when I finish folding, I join my hands in gashou. But I do not do a bao. I just gashou. So that's kind of a... outline of the practice period that I just gave you. I'd like us to work on intimacy with the understanding that this intimacy

[61:26]

is the same as Bodhidharma sitting facing the wall for nine years and it's the same intimacy as Bodhidharma's relationship with his students and the same as the relationship between the The 41st ancestor, Doan, Doan Kanchi, Doan... What's the next one? Ryozan Enkan. But what's the other Doan? Isn't Dohi the second one? Doan, Dohi, Doan Kanchi? So this is the relationship between Doan Kanchi and Ryozan Enkan. same intimacy, the intimacy which Doan Kanchi taught Ryozan Enkan, that intimacy is the intimacy of this tradition between student and teacher or between teacher and teacher.

[62:54]

Once the intimacy is realized, it's a relationship between teacher and teacher. Before it's realized, it's like the teacher's enlightened and the student's not. So in the story they say the student was enlightened, but really, if the teacher wasn't enlightened, that's weird. So it's really they're enlightened together in this intimacy. And so I brought copies. which were made for you by Shokuchi and a Xerox machine. If you'd like a copy of this calligraphy of this question that Doan Kanchi asked, you may have one. And use it well, please. So we have some texts here, some stories, and we have a daily practice.

[64:10]

And it's challenging to be intimate with teachers and students. It's challenging. It's challenging to be intimate with a body sitting for nine years facing the wall. I was talking to someone recently and they were telling me about having lunch with a friend and they were trying to decide what to order. One friend has an eating disorder and the other friend liked like to eat family style. You know what you mean by family style? You know, you order this, and you order that, and I'll order this, and I'll order this, and then we can share.

[65:14]

But when one person has eating disorder, it's hard for them to, things have to be, you know, just so. And the person with the eating disorder said, I'm not much fun to have dinner with, am I? And The other person said, well, in this realm, you're not much fun. But this isn't our whole relationship. And the other person cried through the whole meal and couldn't eat. And I thought when I heard this story, I thought, this is a story of intimacy. It's difficult. to be intimate with somebody who's got an eating disorder when you want to eat family style, or even not. It's difficult. And even people who don't have eating disorders still have medical conditions which limit what they can eat and how to live in community.

[66:23]

It's difficult, right? Difficult. And what came to mind is a quote I recently read I don't know if it's a quote, actually, or just a description of a French writer named Roland Barthes. And it might have been a quote, but anyway, the idea is that in true intimacy, there is an alternation between supreme attunement and bewildering estrangement. And I thought, well, if I use intimacy as synonymous with enlightenment, then would I say that in true enlightenment there is an alternation between supreme attunement and bewildering estrangement?

[67:25]

Because we think, well, supreme attunement, that goes with enlightenment. But would enlightenment have bewildering estrangement in the neighborhood? And I think, yes, it does. Enlightenment is not dualistic. It doesn't, like, keep bewildering estrangement away. It is intimate with that. But to find that place where there's really peace with bewildering estrangement, of course, you need supreme attunement to be at peace with that. It's very tough stuff, this intimacy. And once again, one of the first things that Suzuki Roshi said that surprised me was when we're with acquaintances, we can be informal.

[68:28]

But when we become intimate, we need some formality. So... we have formality here but the purpose of this formality the purpose of these forms is not to get the monks under control or not to get the other monks under control that's not the purpose of these forms the purpose of these forms is intimacy is enlightenment somebody asked me just a short time ago what is the justification for these forms? and I said enlightenment is the justification of these forms and there's two senses of that word justification one is enlightenment is the reason for these forms the reason we have these forms is because the business here is enlightenment that's why we have these forms that's the sort of reason justification for the forms

[69:35]

But the other word for justification is verification or proof. The proof of these forms is enlightenment. The proof of the pudding of these forms is enlightenment. So all of our Zen stories practically are about people practicing forms and seeing if they can, by the way they practice the forms, to prove enlightenment. By the way we follow this schedule, by the way we serve each other, by what we do here formally, to use this to prove whether we're realizing the way. But also, even if we don't feel like we can prove it yet, understand that that's the point of all these forms. The point of this place is to make Buddhas. And if we're doing that, well, maybe it's alright that we have all these forms.

[70:44]

Maybe then we can put up with them. Because they're hard. We can feel quite estranged from them. Or, the other side is, quite attached to them. But attachment is a sneaky kind of estrangement. or you could say an ironic form of estrangement. Once again, that's my picture, at least at the beginning of the practice period, that's my sketch of what I'd like to work on with you. And maybe that's enough for today. Is it? Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center.

[71:48]

Our Dharma talks are offered free of charge and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, Visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

[72:10]

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