This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfcc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Thank you, San Francisco Zen Center for inviting me to give a talk. So many people have helped me. so many along the way, I just can't name them all. One person I cannot fail to mention is Shunryu Suzuki, one of the founders of the Zen Feast in North America, and definitely a main cause of my being here today. I also want to respectfully thank my Previous and now deceased teachers, Leila Smith Backhorst and Steve Stuckey.

[01:02]

They both encouraged me when I was most unwell and new to practice. There have been others too, but they would be delighted with the noticeable transformation I experienced in both body and mind. Do mainly to Zen practice. And as important as well is to thank you all for being in this room with me. As well as those online. The topic of my talk today is not knowing is a friendly state of mind. Before going further into the topic, I would like to tell you that I come to do this Dharma talk from a very humble state of mind.

[02:06]

While I was writing it, I noticed how much the habitual reflex of saying, I know, is rooted in my small mind. Let me have compassion for myself and for all. I'm also going to first translate, not knowing is a friendly state of mind in French. I call doing this the Anne Lore signature, and I try to remember to do it in all of my Dharma talks as a mark of respect, a nod of honor to my native language and culture. 23 formative years of living somewhere else is a major contribution to my current being.

[03:07]

So, in French, the words, not knowing is a friendly state of mind, translates as, ne pas savoir est un état d'esprit amical. The original phrase, not knowing his most intimate, appears in several collections of koans. In the original transmission of the koan, it reads, Gishen asked, where are you going? Fayan replied, on an ongoing pilgrimage. Gishen said, why do you go on a pilgrimage? Fayan replied, I don't know. said, not knowing is most intimate. At these words, Fayan instantly experienced enlightenment.

[04:11]

Many, many very good Dharma talks have been written on this topic of not knowing. And when I started to write this Dharma talk, at times I really was quite ashamed of of myself, a relatively recently ordained Zen priest for tackling a topic so often discussed by seasoned Dharma teachers. At the same time, each person is unique, and each Dharma talk reflects the teacher's own orientation, as a Dharma friend of mine titled this recent Dharma talk. In order to maintain some flexibility a little bit with the sentence, I thought it might be useful to talk about friendly state of mind as well. A state of mind often changes depending on what's happening around us and whether we're in small or big mind modes, kind of.

[05:18]

In 2006, Norman Fisher wrote in a talk posted on the Everyday Zen website. Everyday Zen is Norman Sangha. So here it is. Many teachers have made this one phrase, not knowing is most intimate, the heart of their teaching, repeating it over and over again. But what does it mean and how can we make use of it for our lives? And then he also adds later in that talk, first of all, let me back up and say something basic about Zen practice. As one of my teachers used to put it, Zen is a practice of phrases. The practice of phrases is not limited to Zen. It is common in almost all religious traditions. Now, the way I see it, it's completely human that our state of mind is often more about mundane stuff than about big mind where this Zen not knowing might usually be experienced.

[06:37]

I mean, maybe, maybe not. I don't know. Also, one might say that since Zen overall is a system addressing suffering, it presents itself as knowing sometimes rather than not knowing. I mean, that's an interesting puzzle, what I call, but I've heard it called too, a Zen paradox. It encourages us to keep a light touch. I live outside of a monastery in an environment that is often not so conducive to big mind state. What? And it's often a daily struggle to remain in the friendly, in that state, in the friendly big mind state. So as I was writing this talk and sharing about it with yet another dumb eye friend, I told her how writing this talk made me more aware of how often I say, I know, during the course of the day.

[07:41]

And she was responding to this. And I turned to what her saying, I know, I know. We both burst out laughing and we shared a friendly state of mind there. And it's true that we need to know, of course, certain things at times. I mean, our parents need, at least when I was a parent, I needed to know where my young child was all the time. I need to know how I will pay the rent and so on. It's one thing. to know about mundane necessary daily facts, and it's another to burst out with strong opinions about things that are not so sure. When someone is telling me that they know this or that, I can become quite annoyed. I often tell myself that the less is said, the better. None of us like to be around people who seem to know everything a lot of the time.

[08:48]

I try to remember it as an opportunity to practice my patience. But then I'm afraid that when somebody acts the extreme know-it-all, then my patience is quite limited. And I experienced this recently with an autistic person caring on and on about his favorite topic. That said, the fact is, in general, I often do not know how much another person actually does know. or what they're going through. So my two conclusions here are, one, I strive to be less a blowhard myself, and two, I want to be more forgiving of others and remain in a friendly state of mind. So here is a story about this from my childhood. When I was a young child, most everyone around me and especially my mother and many of her family who lived around us had ideas of how I should behave, how I ought to be.

[10:02]

I really like that the word be is in the word behave. I felt much more comfortable with people who did not think they knew everything about me. And at that time, they were few and far between. I was simply unable to be and behave in a way that would have made sense to the people around me. This, no matter how hard I tried, it made me very sad and also had great effects on my well-being. I started to eat less, I hardly slept, I turned in bed in English, listening to every little sound. Thoughts of suicide entered my mind quite regularly. I was a very troubled child. Now keep in mind that I was later diagnosed autistic and my childhood behaviors and ways were quite autistic.

[11:03]

One time I swam away in the Atlantic Ocean, I live by the Atlantic Ocean, with the thought in mind of eventually drowning. Luckily, a small fisherman boat brought me back to the shore. Throughout those years, other people thinking they knew how I was and should be caused me a lot of pain. Now here I want to bear in mind at all times that it takes two to Tonga, and I definitely was half of the dance. I understood after I was diagnosed and had started a Zen practice that I blamed my poor mother for all of my autistic ways. I find it very interesting that one of the very first people, after the fisherman, along the way who helped save me, sat Zazen, a rarity at that time in my overarching Catholic town.

[12:13]

When my parents were at a loss about me, I went to live with her for six months. That's when I got strong enough a little bit to get going. Also, I ought to let you know that my mother was anxiously waiting for me when the boat brought me back to the shore. And as I was remembering this a few days ago, I just cried and cried. like I hadn't in a long time. It was the dark of morning, and I had to resort to my old habit of biting into a pillow. In my younger years, it used to be my own flesh. No, I'm not going to do it that I bit into. I will end this story by telling that to this day, I regularly encounter the same state of mind with many people assuming that because I'm autistic they know this or that about me.

[13:21]

And they're just not the friends I want to have. Not knowing is a friendly state of mind. The importance of developing a state of mind of not knowing extends to everything and everyone, whether they are disabled or not, and in ways I just don't know. I'm so fortunate that I'm around people with a Zen practice. Really. And we all realize together little by little, or not all faster, a not knowing is a friendly state of mind. Friendship is a kind of intimacy. And intimacy is a definite source of comfort. As is often the case with the understanding of phrases, I bet each of you in this room has a different understanding of the words in the phrase, not knowing is a friendly state of mind.

[14:32]

During the Q&A part of my Dharma talks at my own little sangha, I'm often struck by the different perspectives that people come up with, how interesting they are. There is often a lack of guile in autistic people who mostly make up that sangha. But by not always being so sure we know something, we're certainly allowing for real friendships to develop, and that's no small matter. Jack Cornfield writes, in his 2015 book, The Wise Heart, be aware of all the thoughts and opinions you have about how it should be, how they should be. Now, recognize that you don't really know. Maybe the wrong thing will lead to something better.

[15:36]

You don't know. Cornfield's last sentence, maybe the wrong thing will lead to something better, is an example of something I hadn't thought about, that I did not know. For me, remaining open to the possibility that I do not always know includes at times what some classic Dharma texts say. One common feeling during Zen practice and life in general, Might be to focus on only one side and forget the larger picture. Or maybe not forget it, but we're not talking about it that time. Anyway, from the very beginning of my practice, I have often felt uneasy with what sometimes is written in a classic Dharma text. And I bet you are too, at times.

[16:38]

And my hope is that you do not stop your Zen practice as soon as some sticky stuff shows up. There is a lot of wisdom in the text, in the texts overall. So here again is a place where the not knowing state of mind can be your friend. An example in my experience is that in most Zen meditation settings, there is an assumption that startle reactions might reveal a practitioner's lack of mental stillness. In the Awakening of Faith text, traditionally attributed to Aspargosa, the text says that one who practices the samadhi of suchness diligently and wholeheartedly will gain ten advantages in this life.

[17:50]

I'm not going to read here all ten points. Only the tense one, as it is exactly relevant to my point that we can never be so sure of anything. It says, upon attaining samadhi, The practitioner will not be startled by any sound from without. As an autistic person, this reads as a pronouncement that is somewhat blind to neurodivergence. And it also motivated me to speak on this topic. I often tense up and may startle quite often when there is a sudden sound. I mean, after so much time on the cushion, I really can completely understand how this came to be written. After all, it is true that I am visibly much more grounded and calmer than I used to be. And in fact, it might be difficult to observe what's going on in my body, how I tense up and how I jump sometimes.

[19:02]

My partner... of the last 17 years says that I'm the most sensory-sensitive person he has ever met, and he knows many autistic people. He thinks my brain should be wired for science. My entire body clenches, my entire body, when doors are slammed, sneezing happens, or when the clappers are hit at the end of kin-hin, and this does not go away there is a new york time bestseller book published in 2016 written by a 13 years old japanese autistic boy which is entitled the reason why i jump by naoki higashida based on my personal experience and those of others I encourage you to trust that not knowing is a friendly state of mind.

[20:05]

Trust is going to be naturally to be understood when practicing and repeatedly spending time on the cushion. There is no need to do other than zazen. No need. Zazen. Again and again. I hope my words have not hurt anyone, my big fear, always. I mean, for all my Dharma talks to be first about encouraging people to do zazen, this crucial decision that all of us here have already chosen to do. I'm pretty sure you could almost say, I know that Zazen is helpful for most states of body and mind. And I'm going to end with a few words from Zenke Blanche Hartman in The Zen of Not Knowing.

[21:13]

Cultivate your beginner's mind. Be willing not to be an expert. Be willing not to know. Not knowing is nearest. Not knowing is most intimate. And I add, it is friendly. Thank you very much, friends. Merci beaucoup, les amis. Oh, I forgot to chant at the beginning. Q&A. Oh, okay, Q&A. So if anyone has a question? Beyond the car? It was wonderful.

[22:19]

Thank you. It's wonderful to share, Branch, our mountain source sangha with you. And it's amazing in the year and a half that I've known you, how I watch you stretch and grow in confidence. And I loved the sensitivity that you bring into your lectures. So I thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you, Catherine. If I may say something. I am bursting to say something. It's a year and a half. For those who have known me a lot longer, It's also something else. Hi, Anne-Laure. Thank you so much for your lovely talk. I wanted to ask you if you had any tips for us about how to stay in that friendly state of not knowing.

[23:20]

Is there a way that... When you hear that I know show up, you're able to truncate it or find some place where you don't know. So I was just curious about your process for working with that mind that always wants to feel certain about things. You know, I don't know. You know, I mean, when I was recounting this incident, I tried to practice Zazen with that guy who was talking. But that did not do it. I think it's better to pay attention to what is being said, listen. Maybe. I'm going to try that next. We'll see if I ever see him again. I don't know. Thank you. Thank you.

[24:22]

So, you know, when I first started practicing and still, you know, I was maybe motivated by this idea that there were certain like hang-ups or patterns or habits that I had that were making me suffer and that this practice could help with that. But then, you know, when you think about neurodivergence, right, there's this idea that certain patterns that, you know, may have, uh, upsides and downsides are also just maybe wired in to our brains. So how do we sort of distinguish between, okay, which things are sort of maybe conditioning that we can work through and which things are just, um, inbuilt and how do we work with all of that without, um, with the proper discernment also without like kind of getting on our own case too much. Yeah.

[25:24]

Well, that part about being on your own case too much, I think is very, in my experience and that of my partner, it seems it's quite a neurodiverse thing to do, to beat oneself up a lot, you know, like really. And then the other thing, you know, I don't know exactly, you know, all I know is from my own experience, is that Zazen has helped me tremendously with that. And that's all I know. Yes, thank you for your talk.

[26:25]

I was wondering, is there a distinction between not knowing state of mind and living with uncertainty? Or are they the same thing? Very interesting question. Living with uncertainty, not knowing state of mind. Yeah, you see, that's a new perspective I haven't thought. And, you know, there's something to it, definitely. Thank you. All the things I do not know. Well, right off the bat here, I don't know right off the bat. I would have to think about it more. But they definitely seem to have some similarities. I hear what you're saying. But I don't know. They do have... differences too okay sorry to not be very helpful um do you think zazen is universally helpful for all kinds of minds that's a really good question that's a really good question i i

[27:53]

I'm not sure. I hear there is many different types of minds. And what do I know, say, about schizophrenia? I don't know. You know? You know? Thank you. Thank you so much for a beautiful talk today. I find it quite auspicious because just this afternoon, while we were cleaning the dining room floor, I said to somebody, I said, you know, I'm just going to start with saying, I don't know.

[29:02]

Without knowing... how I was going to move forward with this practice, I stated out loud, I'm just going to say, I don't know. And you now help me understand the connection between what I really desire, and that is to always practice friendliness and openness, especially to those experiences where I find myself being certain that about something that causes separation that I know causes harm in myself and others. So you help me understand how I can move forward with practicing and I just want to thank you also for bringing Blanche's voice and spirit into the room. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Ann-Laure.

[30:07]

We have a question that was typed into the chat from Jenna. Jenna asks, you talk about how you started to understand that behaviors you had attributed to your upbringing and your mother were actually more autistic traits. How did that knowing change your relationship with your family? It made me really have a lot more compassion for my mother. I mean, when I realized this, I actually... My mother lived in France, died in France during COVID several years ago. And I actually started to talk, at least to call her back regularly. When I hadn't, I was really... So that's how it really meant it. I mean... She was really upset at me for not taking care of her, but I talked to her regularly.

[31:18]

I remember calling and having 17-digit phone numbers to type in in order to get through to where she was in her hospital place, like here in the United States, where people, this kind of thing. So, that's all. Oh, and one more thing, Jenna. It's important to me. It doesn't matter that much. But my mom, well, it's quite very autistic for children not to say I love you to their parents. And parents are absolutely in despair over that sometimes. And I was completely the same. And my mom was also the same in despair over it. And guess what? I was able to tell her at some point, I love you. Je t'aime. Thank you so much for your talk.

[32:33]

When you were talking about the... sensory reactions to noises and stimulus. I relate a lot and I've found sometimes that when I've been sitting zazen for a long time, those reactions actually become more intense. I feel more sensitive to sounds and it like will vibrate through my whole body and In those times, I feel that there's even more a feeling of intimacy. And I wanted to hear your thoughts about the relationship between that reaction and intimacy. You know, I... I totally get it that it opens you up, Zaza, to more.

[33:39]

But then there is that the only way for me that I find to get through it is to embrace, to heal in a way. I don't know, to stay with it, to pay attention. And intimacy is, I think, also that part of staying with things close to them and embracing them, kind of. Does that make sense? Yeah, thank you. Okay, thank you. Yeah, thank you. You mentioned the book by the 13-year-old Japanese boy, This Is Why I Jump. I read that book a few years ago. What struck me is, I don't know if you mentioned, he's completely nonverbal.

[34:43]

He's autistic and completely nonverbal. So this was my interpretation or what I got from it was he was able to really say this is what my inner world is like and I can't express this in any other way. So I was wondering if there's anything that you would want everyone to know about being autistic And that may not be so obvious and how, because he really got it across. This is how I want the world to perceive me. And is there something that you would like people to know? Well, thank you for asking that. And I really don't know what to say at this point. I mean, I am here in front of you and you can ask me anything later if you, you know, I... about that, I don't really know. I mean, there's so much to any person. I'm just so grateful that I can express myself.

[35:51]

I am constantly, during Zazen, thinking of other autistic people who have it way more. you know, will have it way more difficult than me. And may I be of help? I don't know. Thank you. Thank you. Maybe one more question. I'm Anler's partner, so I've been the beneficiary of a lot of very major change over the years. It's a real gift having a Zen practitioner in the household. My question is, in that change that I've observed, do you feel like you observe lots of specific instances where you behaved in a way you would rather not in the future and then just kind of memorize those?

[36:55]

or, and avoid them in the future, or do you feel like Zazen is doing something like warming your heart at a deeper level and just sort of in a more general way? The second thing, totally. I ask that because it's kind of an autism-related question. Generals and specifics often are a big issue in autism. Anyway, thank you for your response. Thank you. That's my sense of view as well. That's good. Ready for the show? Thank you, everyone. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma talks are offered at no cost, and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving. May we fully enjoy the Dharma.

[37:57]

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