Yes. A story? I mean, are you one of those, right? Yes. I have a story. Tell me wherever you want to start. Okay. Her name is Chita. I believe that's her name. And she was born into a well-to-do family in Rajasthan, and when she heard the Buddha speaking outside, she decided that she wanted to seek ordination, and she did that in Rajapati. And after she was ordained, it wasn't until near the end of her life that she attained enlightenment, and her experience happened when she climbed this mountain called Vulture

[01:12]

Peak, which gets its name because at the top of the mountain, it's mostly made out of rocks and at the top of the mountain, the rocks are in the formation of a vulture's head. Even as an old woman, it required quite a bit of stamina for her to get to the top, and when she got up there, she had her awakening, and there's really not much more said about her. They do say that when she climbed to the top, she would have seen a really exquisite view of the surrounding hills and forests and so on. And so she writes this poem. Though I am thin, sick, and lean on a stick, I have climbed up Vulture Peak. Rope strewn down, old turned over, leaned on a rock, then great darkness opened. I guess what was inspiring for me is that, I guess in my experience when I perform it,

[02:24]

I feel the closest to getting a little glimmer of what it might be like or what it is like when I'm outside and through my body. And she exerted herself, even as an old woman, she exerted herself physically and she was out in the middle of the natural environment. I read about Sumana. Sumana longed to be a nun over many, many years, but she had to postpone her wish because she was caring for her aging grandmother, and her grandmother had been like a mother to her and her brother. Her brother was a king, so she was from a wealthy family also.

[03:25]

And she went to hear some of Buddha's talks and she was considered by the Buddha to be an eminent lay disciple. So even though she wasn't yet a nun, she was still known to the Buddha. And after her grandmother died, she and her brother went to Pajapati's community to request her ordination. And by this time she was quite old. And she was said to be so ripe for the practice that that very day she experienced immediate and complete enlightenment while she was listening to the Buddha's sermon. And there's a poem that brought her to that moment of enlightenment, and it said that even though this was spoken initially by the Buddha, it was said to have become her own poem after she attained nirvana.

[04:29]

The poem is this. Lie down, old woman, in the robe you made. Your desire is still. You are quenched and cool. And I guess what this is to me is that it's never too late to fully immerse yourself in the spiritual path. And for me it holds out some hope because I think this is something I would like to do. I don't have an aging grandmother, but there are various things that keep me from fully immersing myself in the path. And it's nice to have a role model of someone who was able to do this when she was quite old. Thank you. Dharmadena was a woman that lived during a Buddha's lifetime. And she had not actually heard of Buddha.

[05:31]

And her husband one day, so she was married, but children were not mentioned. So I don't know if there were any. And one day her husband came home and seemed to sort of be in an otherworldly state and did not say anything to her throughout the meal. And that evening he sat down with her and said, I have heard a sermon from this man called Buddha and I am contemplating becoming a monk. And you may have the household and either stay here or return to your parents. And she decided to go with him and also become a monk. So that's what she did. And she went off and joined, she went off to the group and joined the nuns, which were a functioning group at that time. And her ability to teach the Dharma was so thorough that Buddha said that this woman

[06:41]

uses my words to teach with. So she is the only, one of the few people, one of the few of Buddha's disciples whose verse, whose poem is actually a part of the Dhammapada. So, Dhammadena. So what I did was that then I went and looked her poem up. It's in the book, Buddhist Woman, but also I looked it up in Dhammapada. And it's a little different because they point out, the editor points out that it's been changed in the Dhammapada because everything in the Dhammapada is male orientated. So what I did was I have hers here, which is just a few lines. And then I took the one from the Dhammapada and changed it so it's female gender. But there's, besides that, there's a difference and I became very interested. So her poem says, eager for the end of suffering, full of awareness, that's the way.

[07:45]

When one's heart is not attached to pleasure, we say, that woman has entered the stream. So the Dhammapada says, and the woman whose mind filled with determination is longing for the infinite nirvana and who is free from sensual pleasures is called udamsota, she who goes upstream. For against the current of passions and worldly life, she is bound for the joy of the infinite. But what struck me was in hers, the one that's attributed directly to her, it says, that when one's heart, and the one that comes out of the Dhammapada, it says, who's mind. And I've always noticed that that's a real difference in gender orientations, that men tend to talk so often from mind and women talk so often from heart. Now that may be too much of a generalization, but it sort of jumped off of me when I took

[08:50]

and read the difference between those two. But in some languages, a lot of Asian languages, doesn't heart and mind... Well, Japanese, the character for heart and mind are the same, there's no shin, there's no difference between heart and mind, body and mind, heart and mind, body, all of that. But this is English, right, so we have a different thing to deal with in this case. And that's all it said about her. It was a very short two pages on her. Would you read her poem again? What did I read? Yes. Eager for the end of suffering, full of awareness, that's the way. When one's heart is not attached to pleasure, we say that woman has entered the stream. I think that's very different than saying she who goes upstream against the current

[09:54]

of passions and worldly life, she's bound for the joy of the infinite. There's a whole different movement between the two, just in the way the words are used, let alone the images that come up. Going against is different than entering. More of a struggle. Right. What part of the Dhammapada is this? It's towards the end. I'm not so familiar with the Dhammapada. It's been a long time since I've read it in much depth, so I don't know. It's near the end? It's near the end, right. Two thirds of the way through. I have a story for you guys. Linda signed me Sudhari Nanda, and her name gives her a lot of placement in this context.

[11:01]

Sudhari means beautiful, and Nanda is her family name. Nanda was the Buddha's son's best friend. The Buddha's son was Rahula, and Nanda then was his friend. And Nanda and Sudhari Nanda were brother and sister. And Nanda and Sudhari Nanda were the children of Bhajapati. So she was born into a very devout family that really cherished faith and religious study. And she happened, according to this legend, to be the most beautiful woman in the whole region. And being that her family didn't really have much looks all that much, she didn't get all that much notoriety for it. She was named beautiful for that. You know, that's as far as it went. And both her mother and her brother were very predominant players in the Sangha,

[12:01]

and she would go participate in Buddhist functions because she wanted to be with them. She didn't really have that much of a calling, per se. And I guess after she practiced for a while, this is kind of biased because it's something her brother said about her, but it was said that she was the foremost among nuns in her meditation powers, so she had a really nice ability to concentrate. And when she would go talk to the Buddha about her study, he would often have her reflect on what it meant to be so beautiful and also to know that her beauty was going to fade eventually. And so he would have her meditate on decaying bodies to get some sense that her body wasn't always going to be with her. And the story is very short, and so I'm kind of trying to read into it to some degree. But it doesn't say that she was exactly vain or thought that she was beautiful,

[13:05]

but I guess that that must have been maybe a problem for her or maybe just the way people perceived her or something, I don't know. But the poem that's attributed to her goes like this. So day and night, without letting up, I looked at it this way. Me and she was looking at flesh decaying. And by my own wisdom, I perceived it fully. I saw, watching carefully, I plumbed to the very origin and saw this body as it really is, inside and out. Deep inside myself, I have lost interest and passion. I am careful, quenched, calm and free. So that kind of connects to the story I had.

[14:06]

And this came up, and she was from a ruling family in Sao Paulo, and very beautiful. Her skin was called the color of pure gold. And she was the chief consort of King Bimbisara, and his favorite lover. And so she was also very conceited, and even though the Buddha came to the court and talked, she was not interested in what he had to tell. But then the poets of the court kept making poems about the beautiful hermitage the Buddha was living at. And she became curious and went there. And it was very beautiful. And when she met him, he made an apparition, an image for her of an even more beautiful woman that went from youth through middle age to old age

[15:09]

with her teeth falling out and her hair getting gray and her skin wrinkled. And while she was seeing that, she thought, well, that's probably going to happen to me too. And so then he told her that if she was trying to, kind of caring too much for the body, she would be attached to the world. And if she would... What did he say? I don't know. Oh, and if you renounce the world, you're free. And while he told her that, she became enlightened, and that was one of the rare instances of a lay person immediately getting enlightened.

[16:11]

So she left King Bimbisara and became a nun and became one of the two... There were two nuns that led or were the leaders of the first community of nuns. And she was also... She's kind of in the polygonal. She's mentioned as one who possesses greatest insights. And is the most exemplary nun. And so then later another king, Pasedani, came and asked her questions like, does the Buddha live after he died? Does he exist further? And she seems to have responded fully to him, but that isn't in the... I mean, that's not written down. But he pointed out that she was kind of revered also as a teacher, that even a king would go and sit at her feet and ask her those questions.

[17:14]

And her poem is about that she gets kind of tempted by Mara, like Buddha got tempted with beautiful women. And he says, Come on, Kema, both of us are young, and you are beautiful. Let's enjoy each other. It will be like the music of a symphony. I'm disgusted by this body. It's foul and diseased. It torments me. Your desire for sex means nothing to me. Pleasures of the senses are swords and stakes. The elements of mind and body are a chopping block for them. What you call delight is not delight for me. Everywhere the lock of pleasure is destroyed, the great dark is torn apart, and death, you too, are destroyed. Fools, who don't know things as they really are, revere the mansions of the moon

[18:15]

and tend the fire in the wood, thinking this is purity. But for myself, I honor the Enlightened One, the best of all, and practicing His teaching, I am completely free from suffering. And when I read this, I actually wanted to ask Linda about it. I really have problems when it's about being disgusted by the body, and it's foul and diseased, and I wonder if this is not a reaction to the male-oriented perception that this body is bad, and the women's body even more so. But I just don't think that's how it has to be. But maybe I'm still attached to it. So I found it interesting.

[19:16]

I'm also struck by when we just talk about these women and describe them, and it talks about how they look. And I don't remember when we talk about the monks, or the males, that we talk about how they look. Because either they have some guy in there, or they don't. Sanity is a big obstacle in life. Well, according to... With men, I'm saying. It destroys the men. But it's not with a lot of women either. Well, there are enough cases. That's the question she's bringing up. Is that right? It's not really true. It's not really accurate. Is what really accurate? The fact that they keep saying that in all of these things. Is there some myth in here? Who wrote this? I think it's a little what Christina is saying. Why are all the women writing about they don't like their bodies and stuff,

[20:17]

but none of the men say that? So you bring up that that's the thing that gets in the way for women. But I'm not sure that that's true. I'm not sure that's true. But I think men think that. Because it is for them. The men have been disturbed by the women's beauty. The men have been drawn away from their own practice by the women's beauty. But as well, I think if men give attention to a woman's beauty, that cultivates an awareness in the woman of her own beauty more than it... to more of a degree than it may have developed had she not gotten that input from them. So maybe then it does become an issue because if one is responding to you as if you're beautiful, they hold it up, but they also are repelled by it

[21:18]

because it's dangerous to them or a threat to them sometimes. It becomes a threat to you. So maybe then it does become an issue for them more than for men. I see the revulsion against our bodies is certainly a present-day issue of women and our blood. I study Ayurvedic medicine where women live longer because the blood actually moves things through our bodies that men can't. So it's actually a way of cleansing and it's this gift. And I tend to agree that part of... I don't see it as attachment if you accept your body at all those ages, but if you accept the wrinkles with like, wow, yay, you know, this is kind of like, ah, all of those stages are... you can accept them and not revile them,

[22:19]

that that's part of the letting go is embracing all of those things. And yet by treating our bodies as filth, we're almost not getting it because it's grown, while it's still part of the body. I think that's what's being said here, is that I don't think women would naturally think of their own bodies as filth if it weren't needed. But it also seems like a lot of the poems we've heard are sort of reactionary, that they're, you know, we talk about like not attaching to something and not pushing something away, but it seems like there is a definite pushing away of, or, you know, rejection. There's a rejection of something,

[23:20]

which is an action. And that doesn't seem like equanimity, that's... And I heard that, but no matter what the content is, there's still like an action. And a lot of the poems have those words in it, I have overcome, or I have rejected, such and such. It just seems so contradictory to everything that I have learned so far about Buddhism, of just accepting the situation as it is, that we have this body, it just seems like, it really doesn't make sense to me that we need to push this away, or we need to reject it, any part of our body. But isn't this also one of the meditation practices that the monks do, about getting the karmic grains? Yeah. Sort of disgusting nature of the body. Bag of bones and pus and... Well I'm wondering if it's a disgusting nature,

[24:21]

or whether it's just a deteriorating nature. Because, right, revulsion or rejection is just the other side of grasping or pulling. And I think that practice isn't either one. That's in the Satipantana, and it is the graveyard, but I think it's to become aware that this is impermanent, so it's the study of impermanence, not necessarily the study of revulsion, or rejection. So do you think that the poem that Christina read could be sort of a, just a study instead of a reaction? A study of an impermanence? I think it could. I mean, that's a way to look at it. Maybe it's a problem in translation then, because it definitely doesn't quite sound like that. Well, that's how I heard it, actually. I must have used the whole thing.

[25:22]

Or got it. Can you read it again? So he wants to, to excuse her, and she says, I'm disgusted by this body. It's foul and diseased. It torments me. Your desire for sex means nothing to me. So that's pretty clear. I wonder if they ever, if she could have called him the bag of gold, too. I mean, I think it was the other way around, too. I mean, I'm also struck by it, because it seems to me whatever the definition, whatever the main force of definition is, if it's that male-oriented, or if it's the female-oriented, or whatever, there is no way of expressing yourself not in relation to that.

[26:23]

So either you, either I go with it and define myself by it, or I define myself in contradiction to it, which is still not free. It's still not, it's still bound to that definition, and that's what I feel somehow in those stories. They maybe reflect also that time when there was no way, even if a woman was free, to express that freedom so that someone could understand it. She had to maybe use those words. And today we use words that we don't even know how we define, because it's so pervasive. I mean, some we know, and some we need to point it out. We have to really study it, find it. One that I have is, she may have used those words in the way of protection,

[27:25]

these unwelcome sexual advances. This is... Well, I did a, just kind of housing the woman that I was assigned as the mother, and she was a daughter of a prostitute, and she became a prostitute. And her moment of change came when she approached one of the Buddhist monks, and evidently was supposedly, quote, one of the most outstanding of the monks, and she tried to seduce him, and he spoke to her. He said, You bag of dung, tied up with skin. You demoness with lumps on your breasts. The nine streams in your body flow all the time are vile-smelling and full of dung. A monk-designed purity avoids your body as one avoids dung. And her response was,

[28:27]

she became renunciate. But what I thought was wonderful that this author pointed out was they tell this story because it shows that the monk is still attached to his purity, and that his very anger at her was inside evidence of his own unacceptance of sexuality and body and who she was. The poem that she writes goes into this, and at the end, the author also notes that perhaps she too, you can read the end in either way, that she's either let go of all this, and she doesn't need it, or that she's followed the same path as the monk, that I have to cut this, that I cannot accept it. But I think you can see from the poem, at least when I read it, I felt like, yeah, she did embrace all things. Her poem was, Young, intoxicated by my unlovely skin,

[29:31]

my figure, my gorgeous looks, and famous too, I despised other women. Dressed to kill at the whorehouse door, I was a hunter and spread my snare for fools. And when I stripped for them, I was a woman of their dreams. I laughed as I teased them. Today, head shaved, robed, almost wanderer, I, my same self, sit at the tree's foot, no thought, all ties untied. I have cut men and gods out of my life. I have quenched a fire. Isn't that wonderful? Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. God bless. The same myself. The same self. Another thing about Vimala, I think in that passage, the author mentioned that

[30:33]

a lot of the monks would externalize their frustrations and project them onto women. And I think that really hit me and it really made sense with almost all the histories about the women. I was just thinking about that when he was calling her a bag of whatever. I was thinking about the 98% rule. I don't know if any of you know about the 98% rule. Vincent Vaughn ran, talked about that. 98% of all that you think is about you. It's sort of interesting that most of these stories are about rich bankers' daughters and very beautiful women. Except that we have a prostitute. Yeah, but she was beautiful. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. So she probably made a lot of money too.

[31:36]

That's a good question. We haven't heard about a woman who used to work for a woman. No, we haven't. We've heard about some. Yes, but only on... A girl on the street. Someone on the street. Someone with men's wear. An ordinary woman. Reps lecture on something. On sexuality. And then the example you gave from that one month. And I can't remember the first. The second one I still have where the girl calls to the window and she has lived in the same village and she's become a prostitute and the monk goes up and is with her. And then at some point he says she says, you've been so friendly now let me offer you my... Service.

[32:39]

Service, that's it. And he said, well, your job is to recline and my job is to sit upright or something like that. And that was the difference between the other one that in my memory kind of reacted in the same way. I'm a monk and you're this over there and I'm not going to deal with you. No, he said, what could this old rotten tree be good for you, something like that. Oh, right. Yes, the monk in the hut and the young woman comes to seduce him he says, this old rotten tree has nothing to offer you. But that there was a real difference in attitude and resolve being really resolved about those issues. And in some way that's what comes out in the poem of this one. But they mention that very koan in this passage, the young girl that lays her hand on the monk's lap as an example of the fact that

[33:41]

even that monk has not yet the fact that he was rejecting it on a different level but he still wasn't embracing it and that's why the woman came and burned his hut down afterwards. She goes, oh, the terrible man set fire to his hut. And I've read that koan before and I didn't quite understand it until I read Vimala and then this author chose to bring that in as another example of the difficulty of embracing sensuality, our bodies as part of the acceptance of the whole picture. Well, I heard Rev's lecture from Tassajar, which was the same subject as the one he gave on Sunday I don't know if he talked about this but in that lecture he was saying that even for people who choose celibacy that it isn't an issue of no sex it's an issue of being really intimately connected with sexuality and just not necessarily

[34:43]

engaging in sex but that sexuality we're all sexual beings we're products of sexual beings and we are sexual beings and there's no getting away from that so the intimacy and that when when it comes when you have a dynamic of like you meet somebody and there's some sexual tension or whatever that you need to be treat the person with loving kindness and not just reject them and at the same time because it is such a difficult issue for people that we all possess like infinite possibility with sensuality and expression of our sexuality and we know that because we're all sexual beings but that you don't necessarily show that side you don't show that sensuality to somebody right off

[35:45]

you don't show a new student right away at work because then they'll come forward for the warmth and there won't be the connection there won't be a basis for it it won't be seen in context it will become so charged do you know what I'm saying? cross over both of them that's true this reminds me of what the churches have done the issue of sexuality too I mean obviously the sexual drive is does it be stronger? I don't know so it seems like in the effort for different cultures to put some restraints out here a variety of tactics have been tried including aversion therapy the priest used to go

[36:45]

what is it? Nathaniel Hawthorne's the scarlet letter he's lashing himself that's what they used to do the body so if you're going to have patriarchal religions then you're going to have patriarchal problems endocentric problems I have a friend who's a transnative blacksmith and he brought over a book of torture devices the other day and there was one he said this is the one that most people react to the strongest and it was an implement that was like a pear shaped and it was inserted in an orifice could be male or female and then it opens and it would kill you it would be really slow and painful death and underneath it the author and he got really offended because underneath the author it said that the soul of torture

[37:46]

is male and he said I think the soul of torture is fear and I tend to agree from that point of view but I also said have you known any female cultures in the world that have developed implements like this and he also noted that the specific torture devices were directed at what made women women so they were implements that were directed at breasts and genitals in particular and he's traced this through the ages through these devices because the men were so afraid of the procreativity of the women and some of their abilities and their strengths so they attacked them and what made them women and I thought it was really interesting that a male author had done the research and was bringing this point out that that was good but I don't know if I would call the soul of torture male but perhaps that's a little one sided that doesn't sound quite balanced either though because there's a lot of men have been

[38:48]

tortured over the ages by other men or I'm sure women have tortured people too and maybe not have they though? well I'm sure that some women somewhere have tortured but maybe not in a different way no I'm sure that some women are violent and have no question about it just that more men have the power so they can have the advantage of becoming torturers then that raises the question of what creates it, is it power or is it the gender? hmm because men have that power so if women had that except in the chalice in the flame the women when they had the power were not doing that kind of thing on that subject

[40:00]

I think that having grown up in this culture in this background we have we have the same culture even being women I think we have the same attitudes that are behind torture and are behind killing someone we have them inside and even though we don't maybe act it out I think as long as I mean it reminds me of Thomas Poe when I'm talking where he talks about the girl that throws herself over the boat the Vietnamese girl, the 12 year old that has been raped by a pirate and how he goes through and he says I'm the pirate and I'm the girl he's everything and I do think this is really true and as long as we

[41:01]

point a finger to something outside and say it's there we actually hide that it's in here too and it won't change so so for me it becomes really tricky as soon as we say well they didn't do it then but we're not them so what will we do now if we have power and I mean I think that the struggle is that before we tried to get everything that men had because we thought that was more than we had but actually it's not I think again if we talk about the genders it gets very complicated but if we talk about each of us have

[42:03]

a male and female aspect resulting to the tour that we hope to come into some kind of wholeness integrate that although I don't really feel that I do feel women do I do have that feeling, I can't imagine women doing what the Nazis did or what some of this ethnic cleansing the torture, I can't imagine women doing that even if they have the power raping men yeah killing children I can't imagine for example I think on the other hand we can be so cruel to each other mentally and emotionally and I think that's less I mean I don't think that's less harmful than physically I think to draw the example

[43:05]

to power that when you look where women do have power though in the home with their children you see that played out and there's lots of child abuse perpetrated and if we look less at I mean I think in that sort of movement like world you can start to look at the causes of the causation of violence against others because the stress, I mean maybe there's a little bit more room to go well why does the mother abuse her children when you look at the stress that she's under and it's because she can, it's the only thing she can control in fact the same probably goes for say what goes on in a women's prison I think women's violence may not look exactly like men's violence but it's there it's definitely there even if it's something we were talking about earlier the aspect of withdrawing when you're mad

[44:06]

instead of fighting you know the withdrawing is just as harmful I think that's where you know somebody like the woman who wrote The Chalice and the Blade was talking about partnership rather than you know something where there's a dominator we're all, I mean we've all been brought up with it you know both men and women it's not just the girls that have been subjected to it but why is it 95% of our prisoners are male well they're also third world

[45:09]

they're not you know black and hispanic it has to do with the culture and the system in that country interesting well it also has to do with what we're taught is okay behavior men are not taught to be quiet and impressed and in fact it's a very positive thing for men to observe and aggressive it's 12,000 per year and are there any women serial killers are there I'm sure there are are there there was a woman her two children all come in the car

[46:11]

and they were done yeah I think it is sort of important that we own this part of us I don't want to but it's clearly why why morality all the rules about morality exist because we all have the potential to to behave this way well but what about physiologically what about testosterone that just changes the way it looks it doesn't change the fact of it I mean I think women can without hitting out women can do a lot granted but

[47:12]

men's brains are different there's a part of the corpus claustrum that they cannot connect their it's said that they don't have access verbally to their feelings like the female brain well I mean I don't know this is just research it sounds like you read people magazine I don't know why is that and maybe that is coming out of 5000 years ago in a particular way being trained and living so it's not like this is what a male is anytime so if we we change this maybe our brains change I'm sure they do I mean don't you think you have to be a little brain dead to go to war yeah I mean you have to

[48:13]

you have to be brainwashed yeah I mean as Christina was just saying it's 2000 years or 5000 years of going in a certain direction and you know how do you stand up against them without cutting off a part of yourself I don't think you can go and kill people without cutting off a part of yourself over the years that must happen I mean over the brain dead to go to war in our home something that's laying on the floor why would you need to cut off a part of yourself in order to go to war I don't think you could actually kill another human being if you were aware of what you were doing aware of what it all meant I understand that they were attacking you

[49:14]

I understand that in the context of the 21st century but when I think of 5000 years ago I have a little trouble imagining it I don't think I don't think you know a hundred generations they'd think anything about it it's called staying alive well I think that's what friends of mine felt too about being in Vietnam it was about staying alive there's a little difference the difference is someone made a choice to go somewhere no they didn't where I don't think so listen I was there and I tell you it's a choice at some point you made a choice you made a choice not to go to jail you made a choice not to go to Canada if you don't own up to the responsibility of that then something else is happening but I'm not sure

[50:15]

a hundred generations ago the person living outside a cave was experiencing any kind of choice about how to survive that's what I was thinking about and then the change since then starts to change that other part okay then what is is really Iceland I agree on Iceland and what is it that there was a a group of people I mean there was there's evidence that there was a partnership society and that there wasn't that they didn't have a lot of symbols for death and kill war right well if you take that as true it's an amazing period because I think it's the only

[51:18]

long period of time in the history where there was no war but there's been a lot of question about whether that was valid no that was one anthropologist or a few reading of the evidence but it looks like there's some question about whether that's valid evidence anyway but certainly there's a survival instinct involved that we begin with that's probably where the problem starts I have this feeling of this conversation being really far away from me actually here and I was thinking about this like this series of meetings and different things that I actually went through even just hearing the stories again I feel like this is kind of conversation feels a little bit up here and I was remembering how many times

[52:21]

in this just as we were telling different stories here or reading these different stories of actual fear or panic coming up thinking that that being afraid in a way of what was happening what we're doing in that sort of sense of challenging or looking differently or whatever it is but it was just a lot of fear and I also was remembering the first meeting when we all went around and said different experiences or from our upbringing and I remembered one not only but specifically when you spoke I actually felt quite a lot of I want to say relief but I'm not sure

[53:26]

that that's quite the right word but just somehow you're in this context here just your awareness of kind of or acknowledging or something where you were and saying I never really think about it very much until now in some sense it felt to me like potential anywhere anyway it was somehow in or the freedom from it all was in consciousness I mean like everything kind of keeps flowing along like you said well you kind of how I remember this story you sort of thought of it but then it kind of went back to sleep because you were kind of in the flow of what was happening and so I felt this particular sort of session we've had some kind of consciousness in a way that's I mean I don't know how it's affected other people but it's different I don't know that anything

[54:28]

external necessarily changed that much but it's been really different and also in the class the first time I did this a smaller group and only women it made a big difference I think part of it actually some of panic in some sense just actually seeing men in the room I mean the representative of males and that was interesting just to feel the difference in the size and also having a mixed context as you were speaking I think I don't even know about all these other things but it's like there's so much just right it seems like so much I just think what do I do today how does it change here in this community or whatever context we're living in

[55:30]

I don't really know about all those other things about survival going to war or brains or whatever I don't know so I guess I guess I am I am interested how anybody wants to say but if this how or if it affected them in any way how how this study these stories or just bringing this up the conversation made a difference what people were saying tonight is exactly how it has affected them I think some of what's coming out

[56:31]

tonight is an expression of how listening to these stories has affected them hearing about these women and hearing them talk about the way they're talked about in terms of their physical selves and not hearing this the same way we hear about the men I think that's what's coming out here in myself I feel a lot of bitterness I don't want to feel it but I have a lot of animosity toward men I understand the delusion from a Buddhist perspective but in my life the men that have been closest to me closest to my daughters there's some kind of anger there and I guess I don't know

[57:31]

that I look at all the different religions it's complicated what I hear is what I feel myself is some relief actually we talked about this before I feel some relief to hear about how far back this goes it makes me understand the depths of what I'm dealing with today to me it's very affirming it means I'm not crazy I don't imagine this and I'm probably not going to fix it today or tomorrow but just to see and I think what I'm hearing tonight is some effort to explain why it is we want to know how it happened

[58:33]

how did it get this far maybe we're never going to figure that one out but the fact of what you were saying is right on the fact is that it's right here today in all of our lives in some way or another it's really good to to hold that to just hold that I think to bring these issues up to my consciousness hearing the history of it hearing other people's experiences of it feeling my reaction to various things or what not but just having that brought up to my consciousness whether or not I do anything specific about it I don't feel like proselytizing or championing necessarily although I may feel like that in a particular instance but I think just absorbing it and then continuing on

[59:34]

with my life that it's in my mind and even when I feel it I think it will it will just naturally affect a relationship that I would have with somebody because I'd be more aware of things which were slanted in one way or the other and be more conscious of it and I'd choose maybe not to go further with the situation if I was more aware that it was biased or something just knowing just talking about it I think is helpful I agree and there's some way by talking about it together in a group we can kind of begin to see ways we can help each other see it because it's so subtle that I don't often I don't see it but I think seeing it

[60:34]

is certainly a step I'd sort of like to hear from the men who haven't said anything and how what you hear tonight what you've heard in the stories well I felt this whole class a very difficult class for me difficult not intellectually but emotionally um hearing about all these discriminations and tonight about these cruel things that have been done to women they kind of revolved me a lot and I felt being put out on the spot a representative of the man's world and I feel a lot of guilt and shame I have felt guilt and shame throughout the whole class

[61:36]

actually and I really wonder whether whether it would be possible or whether we could reach a point where we talk about these things more from an ethical point of view I mean from a common understanding that not all the men and certainly not the majority of the men were ever like that and were ever so cruel and as we said tonight that also some women could be cruel and were cruel in history so what I would wish is that we could speak from a more not this polarization I felt a lot of polarization throughout these classes and I've been quite hurt and um I wonder if it's possible to talk more from an ethical point of view about these things even if they are very emotional and not leaving a little of this polarization

[62:38]

I don't know whether that's possible but that's my wish I wish you had said that weeks ago I'm glad you said it now I think really that's one reason things don't change because it's very hard to talk about this without shaming somebody and then whoever is feeling shamed wants to defend themselves or leave so I think it's great you brought that up thank you I'd like to say something about guilt because I think when we start looking at inequalities it's easy for people to who have more power feel guilty but it isn't your fault as someone said this has been going on for centuries and you know as we become more aware of it we can try to change it but I think it's not your fault that you were born a man and that men have more power

[63:38]

in Buddhism than in the world in general so I think if you become aware of some of the ways in which that power is played out you can become our ally you can help us out so I'm glad you're here something I wanted to add too that I've been involved in these discussions for years and I think it is very difficult to sit and to listen and the only time I really felt like I started to approach getting what it must feel like for men to sit with the rage was to be at a feminist conference where it went straight down the line along race lines and the white people couldn't say anything because there was nothing they could say that didn't come from guilt or the possibility of creating more injury and there was no room to be heard and to just feel paralyzed to either be or just sit there in silence and I think the women here can think about that

[64:40]

that it's about cross-cultural communication in many ways that if we start from that place I wouldn't have wanted to sit through this for six weeks if it had been racial so I just wanted to offer my thanks for your being here and to say I mean it's also racial and it's class and it's education and all the different ways where we imagine ourselves it all comes down to separation I feel like I'm getting sick so I'm just going to get some tea I just wanted to thank everyone for coming I don't know

[65:45]

trying to assess what I felt in being here I think at times I did feel kind of shame or embarrassment that this but I'm not sure how in touch with my feelings I actually am as far as it goes in some ways though it just seemed interesting to just kind of be here and just listen I don't know it didn't really seem that uncomfortable I felt a little embarrassed when I had to read my report because I felt like

[66:46]

mine was sort of kind of derogatory in a way but as far as the poem and everything goes but it's it's it's not that uncomfortable I guess if I'm just sitting here and listening but I don't feel like it's that much pressure sometimes when if I had to speak out I almost feel kind of like it's a bit out of place or if I had to say something I almost feel like it's almost more appropriate to listen but I guess that's not necessarily the case but that's kind of how my

[67:46]

experience of being here and interacting in it was I guess for me I felt I felt some of the shame and guilt throughout but really not until tonight did I feel very uncomfortable I think tonight things kind of exploded and whereas a lot of the resentment and feelings were kind of focused on this time way back in the Buddha's era and the Buddha himself tonight things kind of so I started to feel kind of like ooh are they talking about me or do I have these things and of course I do I mean I can't say or feel that all these things that are talked about men that are part of our culture are not within me so I do feel some ownership of them and feel uneasy with that

[68:47]

at the same time I was thinking that as we go through life we're all actors I mean I'll act out pieces of the play that's kind of been written for generations and through cultures and civilizations and I was thinking of when people were talking about how certain male cultures or men and soldiers have killed others and how could they and maybe women couldn't or women wouldn't or at least they haven't in history the thought that arose in me was that we all feel naturally and necessarily feel sadness and compassion for the victim in those cases but I was thinking what about the people who are perpetrating the crimes and there's there's whether acknowledged or not there's got to be a lot of hurt and suffering within the people who commit these crimes and that we don't tend to think about that and realize that we need to be compassionate for them and maybe the actions

[69:49]

aren't derived from their own being but because they are acting out something that's been played out for them and so I was just thinking about that dualistic way of looking at it It's so great to hear the men throw in another piece of the picture It really is really helpful It's sort of interesting to me to like we read specific stories each of us read specific things about specific women and then we got into this very general talk instead of staying with like

[70:51]

when somebody was reading about some woman and how I guess the woman who was she was told to do a thing about how fussy her body was or whatever it was and but listening to all this about how you know how these women perceive themselves with the male energy that was you know aimed at them and I was thinking about how it's been for me how it was when I was in my teens and twenties and what I might have written in a story

[71:53]

I'm actually really glad that it's general instead of specific because reading so many stories I have a hard time like accepting them because I get a little concerned about the translation or who wrote it or what facts are being included and what aren't or not and in a lot of cases these people don't there's so little about them in certain cases that they don't really feel totally human they just feel like these little snippets you know and and it's very interesting to see the history of it or whatever but I mean today is we live today and you know talking about women in Buddhism today is kind of pertinent but even more pertinent is women

[73:03]

you know we're just people and you know how are we interacting with our students maybe this is a perfect way to kind of draw from what we've been looking at and apply it to our experience right now I think one of the good qualities of a so called like living religion is to use use the teachings to find a way to heal these old wounds which I think is something that happens when we hear everybody talk about this poem keeps coming to my mind about this class I can't remember the whole thing but maybe I'm just thinking of you to talk to you but not only is someone else going to remember exactly how it goes by Rumi but the breeze at dawn has secrets to tell

[74:05]

don't go back to sleep except that we're hovering at the threshold and the door is round and wide don't go back to sleep there's one more line you know I feel like this is sort of an opening you know whatever it is anger, fear consciousness or shame or whatever and I feel like it's not going back to sleep somehow whatever that is I feel like I'm very glad we are a mixed group and maybe we meet one more time I'm also trying to find out where that piece of paper is I didn't have anything to write and in a way

[75:09]

I also think whatever everybody brought out is a piece of a puzzle so it's not and for me what came back again and again and in some way it's in the poem that was somehow that poem had such a simplicity to it it felt like manageable tangible and the other one didn't it was very brainy and for me what always came back is probably out of the teaching that trying to become intimate is the only way to learn about it so I have to take it in I mean even though I see it out there if I don't see the equivalent in me and become really intimate with it

[76:09]

I won't ever know a solution to it and so that when we're sitting here people were willing to put their things out and let us become intimate more with them and with that what they put out was a part of us it was our response I really thought that was a wonderful thing in this group and maybe we have one more time this winter which would be good I think also there is this she's not here tonight so it's different did you take this to show her if she wants to? no I'll give that to you so we finish with this paper how we we

[77:10]

chat yes maybe the papers yeah share them around great do we have it here I have one here you know I'm like the only you know ok do you want to put it in your place or give it to her I know yeah shall we just start

[78:11]

yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah [...] Nanda Tara Dayo Sho, Nandika Dayo Sho, Swagurga Dayo Sho, Siva Dayo Sho, Uttama Dayo Sho,

[79:14]

Kisadutthami Dayo Sho, Vasati Dayo Sho, Ubiri Dayo Sho, Hathakarapanda Svata Dayo Sho, Nisadassi Dayo Sho, Madhaka Vimani Dayo Sho, Utta Dayo Sho, Kapha Dayo Sho, Sumangala's Mother Dayo Sho, Dhamma Dayo Sho, Sita Dayo Sho, Sumana Dayo Sho, Vimala Dayo Sho, Adhankasi Dayo Sho, Arumavanti Dayo Sho, Ammavani Dayo Sho, Anupama Dayo Sho, Abhirubhananda Dayo Sho, Jenthi Dayo Sho. Now we have chanted the names of our female ancestors, may the example of their lives inform and nourish our practice and help us in coming intimate with all beings.

[80:43]

First ten directions, three times, all beings will meet at first. Mahasattvas, wisdom beyond wisdom, Mahakasyaparavitam. Mahasattvas, wisdom beyond wisdom, Mahakasyaparavitam.

[82:05]

It belongs to Judith. It belongs to Judith.

[82:15]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ