I'd like to taste the truth without a target as first. Could we open somewhere? Be a good idea, yeah. I know a couple people missed you, um, who are here tonight. Um... I'd be interested in hearing from you if there is anything that came up after the class for you that you'd like to say something about. And also, um, I just wanted to make it very clear that I approached this material in a non-accusatory way. Yes? So my feeling is that all of us, the men and women in the class, are all learning about this together.

[01:10]

I think there was things that were revealed, sort of, or kind of came to light last week for both men and women. And it's not, um, an issue that, the issue of androcentrism and so forth is not owned by the women in the class, if you know what I mean. I, um, I just hope that, um, for the men that they don't feel alienated and can relate to the material, are relating to the material, um, and not feeling separated. That's really important, I feel, for the class to go on. So... Would anyone like to comment or say something about last week's discussion or what might have come up for them, if you'd like to?

[02:12]

Yes? I, I want to thank you for the story about, um, when the Buddha got enlightened and about how his wife in between was pregnant. It really, like, went with me the whole week and came over and over again and I liked it a lot. It really made it, kind of, very whole for me. I will tell it in Austria. Uh-huh. Yeah. I, um, I think I, this is the second time that I've heard this, um, sort of, I, I heard it twice in a way that, that when Raulo was born, or the son, Raulo was born, and, um, the Buddha, he wasn't the Buddha yet, left. And then it, twice it was presented like, oh, he just cut out on his wife and kids and, you know.

[03:17]

But the last time that I heard it, I really, I really saw the sacrifice in that, that here he has his first son and, I mean, he's such a sensitive person and he must love his son, that must be the dearest thing, his wife and child. And that he would be willing to sacrifice the dearest things in his life to pursue the practice, not that he just felt, you know, bound or fettered to this wife and child, but he actually, the dearest things, he was willing to, to sacrifice for this. And, um, and it's sort of, it was very moving for me because I didn't consider that before. It was just like, oh, yeah, well, it's easy, it'd be just easy for him to leave, but then I realized that it would probably be very, very difficult. Today I was just reading a story about a burning house and a father kind of trying to get the children out and telling them, oh, there's nice stuff out there, and so they would come out because he told them the truth, they wouldn't come out.

[04:40]

So for me, when I hear this or even read about Buddha, I know that it's only been written down 500 years after he lived, so for me it's already man-made, even though, you know, it says the Buddha said. And that, hopefully, you know, that was skillful means for that time, what they did with the women at that time, and it's not like, and now what we're trying to do is skillful means again, but basically, you know, we change the language and we do more. But it's, unless I think that way, I become really uncomfortable. Unless I think that all we're trying to do now is to widen our understanding of Buddha's teachings so that we also, in our times, men and women can kind of participate more fully and understand more fully.

[05:49]

Unless I think that way, I become really uncomfortable, because I think it's not the truth. The truth is beyond gender, and still we have gender, so I don't even know exactly how to say that, but I feel myself all the time oscillating. Because the moment it becomes kind of a political, leans towards political movement, it's already past the truth. I mean, it already starts to have another energy in it. And so, that was what, for me, was the most strong after last class. And also, really, the challenge and the good part of this class, that it brings up all these questions for me, and I feel my reactions oscillating around these words and topics and how it was before, and kind of idealizing.

[06:59]

Sometimes it sounds like, well, there was all this peace before, and I think, you know, how, you know, I don't know, maybe they suffered more than we do now. Who knows? I mean, I wasn't there, or I can't remember if I was. So, that's my thing. So, if I can loop you on this. If what we're doing together in this class is skill and means, is helpful in order to practice more fully and more round, more whole, then you're all for it, and this is what you want to do too. But if you feel like there's some, something else, some ulterior, or not even ulterior motive, but just something else that's getting involved, like a polarized, more political, us against them kind of thing that gets going, then that's very confusing, and, oh, you didn't say confusing, but that's not, you don't want to really participate in that.

[08:12]

Right, I feel like that would be something else than trying to understand Buddha's teaching in our times with the needs that we have. I mean, kind of, it's hard to say. Because I do not perceive that a culture is made by either men or women. It's made by both. And then it gets out of, at some point it needs to change because it doesn't fit anymore. It needs, so the balance needs to change, and that's what I feel is happening now. So we change the language, but sometimes when we change the language, I feel, if I can change the language in the same way, you just turn it upside down, and that doesn't seem to me to help anything.

[09:17]

Like, first men are often really down, and now we just, you know, miss the language. So, so that's what I would not want to happen. Okay. I don't want that to happen either. I have to close this. I hope that's alright. It's just a little drafty coming from this spot. Just like Cristina was talking about. Yes. Yes, I agree. Yes. And I was curious, so it's a question of hearing again what it was that the Buddha said when Mahajan, when she asked to become a nun.

[10:37]

Because I started to think, I mean, again, my feeling is too, it's an interpretation in a patriarchal society, and the choices and who's interpreting it and translating it. But even, there was, I'm curious to hear it again, because even in my own head or in my own thoughts, there was a sense of really, and especially as the defense of female energy can get, might say, oh, he's really saying this. And I was wondering if there would be almost a different interpretation, and what I fantasized in my head was the interpretation was to say to this woman that it would be hard to do it. Not like, no, you can't, but like society and the community is saying no, and that it would be a very difficult choice to make. So it was sort of like I was playing with that in my own head, like what, to do something like that then is a whole lot different than doing something like that now. The way it has happened. Yeah, I, well, I think that's when we don't know, you know.

[11:39]

Let's see, I don't have a bookmark in there. What exactly, yes, maybe he was protecting them from this difficult life that they were, I mean, you can make all sorts of reasons we can theorize about. But it's true, I think, with women entering the order, there are a lot more difficulties to work out, a lot of logistics and a lot of, and also leaving homeless, you know, it's called home leaving. And in that society, it was not, it was accepted for men, but it wasn't like really, people were not just overjoyed when their sons left home and, you know, so even for men, it was not in that society, something you would want necessarily to happen, but you allowed it to happen. So then, and for women too, who were seen as being, you know, in their father's house and then their husband's and then under their son's care, the male, so it must have been very unusual, was very unusual for them to want to be home leavers.

[13:02]

It would be very hard to understand, but he ended up saying, okay, you know, so I think the reasons why he might have said no, we don't know, but it may have been for these kinds of social concerns. And even the rules that he set, you know, they really are, they're societal rules, they're not about people and compassion, but they're, again, you know, we don't know what was done, I mean, what flashes to my mind is that women also were killed with their husbands if there were no sons, and I mean, the extreme existence that women actually were living in then, and I think sometimes, you know, unless we really sit back and we get a taste or comprehend the rules and regulations of the times. I'm not sure this is on the same topic, but I'm curious about the whole idea of it being necessary to leave home to get enlightenment.

[14:11]

It seems an unusual idea, which probably came out of, I don't know where, but it seems not what we're being taught now. It seems we're being taught that you can become enlightened at any moment, right in the midst of whatever life you're living. Well, there was a, and still is in India, a long history of people who would be wandering ascetics and wandering holy people, men and women. In fact, there's different words for, you know, a naked ascetic, one who never, who has matted hair, one who, you know, they have all these, like Eskimos have 20 words for snow, it's like there's all these different gradations of these wandering religious people who were doing yoga practices, not pre-Buddhist, but anyway,

[15:22]

this is a society that has this as a option, you know, and often after you've had a family and lived a life and had a profession, then you go off and maybe do this. So, I think at that time, although there's, you know, there's the story of like Queen Shramala, you know, the Sutra of Queen Shramala or Vimalakirti Sutra that talks about lay practitioners who completely understood the Dharma, you know, so there was that kind of balancing. But I think the home leaver, where you, you know, some of the requisites for practicing are not having to worry about your livelihood and the affairs of the world, this seems to be seen as some conducive to contemplative life.

[16:25]

And I think in Mahayana and in Zen that you find that contemplative life within everyday life, that's kind of the emphasis. But I do feel at that time there was this, although there were examples of people who stayed at home and did it, and the lay people were very devoted. I mean, there was a whole laity that supported the monks and nuns' life, and they were devoted Buddhist people, whether or not they did formal practice, like Zazen practice, let's say, or studying the Dharmas or Abhidharma, that was usually reserved for the monks and nuns who had time to do it, you know. So, we still use this home leaver, you know, even in our priest ordination and Jukai, don't we also talk about leaving home?

[17:32]

There's leaving home and, let's see, the translation for Jukai and the translation for Tokudo is, Jukai is leaving home and staying at home, or? I don't know that Tokudo is leaving home. And Jukai is leaving home by staying at home. So, anyway, there's a kind of, we do use that term and it comes from, of course, the example of the Buddhist life of taking this step to leave and leave and sacrificing, as Jeanette said, a certain emphasis and making a turn. But, yes, you don't have to go to the dusty realms of other lands, you know, as the Fukanza Zengi says, you know, it's right here under your heel, under your, like Dorothy in The Wizard of Oz, you don't have to go off.

[18:40]

But I think that emphasis came, well, it's probably that strain is all the way through, it's all the way through, I think. Okay. I just wanted to tell you, I just blew in from after we had a ceremony for Yitzhak Rabin, then I leaped into the car and went off to pick up Davy from where somebody had taken him from soccer practice to somebody else's house, and they hadn't eaten dinner. And so I threw together some cold tofu for them and carrots, what else do they eat? Cold tofu, carrots. Anyway, and then the Han is going, right? This is, I don't know what this is, this is, this is women in Buddhism.

[19:43]

This is why you have to leave home to be coming, right? Well, this is just what the territory is like. So there was a couple of things that I had alluded to last week and I wanted to tie up some loose ends. One was, when I was talking about these invasions, the Aryan tribes invading, coming from the steppes, the steeps or the steppes? The steppes. The steppes, yeah, the steppes. And they got into India and they didn't, they conquered North India, the Aryans, but they never got to South India. So there's the Dravidian culture of South India is still, to this day, kind of active. And I don't know if you know Eleanor Gadden, she teaches at CIIS, she's a woman who in her middle age went with her husband,

[20:51]

I think he was a professor and he went to India to study something or other and she went with him and they were in South India and she saw these women of South India and she felt as if she was seeing women for the first time, the way they moved and their, just, well she describes it very beautifully, but just how their bodies were comfortable and natural and how they moved and carried their children and she was just struck by this. And she ended up turning her whole life around and she now, she heads the women's spirituality master's and PhD program at CIIS now and she's written this book, The Once and Future Goddess, I mean she just completely was revolutionized by seeing these women of South India. I've never been to India. Some of you have, I know. Anyway, in South India, this Aryan culture didn't penetrate and there's a kind of old strain that's there.

[21:55]

And Dr. Kansa, Edward Kansa, who translated a lot of the Prajnaparamita literature, the Diamond Sutra and the Heart Sutra he translated and also the Prajnaparamita, this is the Perfection of Wisdom in 8,000 lines and the 100,000 lines and the 25,000 lines, he did a lot of this translation. And the Prajnaparamita, which is, it started being written about 1st century BC, the Buddha was 500 BC, and in 1st century BC, the Prajnaparamita literature, which turns on the teaching of emptiness, began to come forward. And Dr. Kansa feels that this Prajnaparamita came from South India, that that's where it was generated. He actually has it down to the river and what cities around there that he feels this teaching came from.

[23:03]

And at this time, the Bodhisattva ideal becomes the foremost ideal rather than the Arhat ideal, which is early Indian Buddhism, the Arhat, one who practices for oneself to not return, to get out of the cycle of birth and death and not return into another life. The Arhat will not return again, so this is juxtaposed to the Bodhisattva who will come back until everybody else has been fully enlightened and then they'll be the last ones. So this new teaching, which has compassion as its main emphasis, whereas wisdom and compassion together, but compassion becomes very strong,

[24:08]

and Dr. Kansa feels this comes out of South India and that it fuses the teaching and the ancient teaching of the great, well he calls it the great mother, but the great goddess teaching that this Prajnaparamita comes together with the great goddess from millennia before this gets fused. And it's because of this that Buddhism begins to spread, because it was really in India mostly and a few of these Southeast Asian countries, and then with the Mahayana it spread all throughout Asia and Tibet and Korea and China and Japan, it really went much further. And not being a scholar of the Prajnaparamita literature myself, when I came upon this it was so great that those two things come together in the Mahayana and the Prajnaparamita teaching.

[25:20]

So this is Prajnaparamita iconographically, it's a woman, and this was at the Asian Art Museum a couple of years ago, it's almost life-size, it's extremely beautiful, I'll pass it around. Sitting in full lotus and on the left, on top of this lotus is a book which is the Prajnaparamita, the actual writings are, you can't quite tell but it's a little square thing that sits on top of the lotus. So anyway, within the Prajnaparamita it puts together these two strains, and that allowed Buddhism to go outside of the confines of India and really become universal Catholic, with a capital, a universal kind of religion rather than confined, and confined because Buddhism, there was a tendency for Buddhism to become very scholastic,

[26:28]

there was this strain of scholasticism and it became a lot of analytical work that came out of contemplation, but analyzing dharmas and debating, and these universities, studies, and the laity wasn't necessarily involved in that. So the Mahayana became something that the laity could be very involved in. Another thing I wanted to mention, so anyway, every day when we do our sutras, we chant our services, and then at the end we make a dedication, all Buddhist, ten directions, three times, all beings, Bodhisattvas, Mahasattvas, wisdom beyond wisdom, Mahaprajnaparamita, we say that how many times a day? A lot, that's our regular dedication.

[27:42]

So this is being dedicated to this Mahaprajnaparamita, we say that every day, and it was envisioned as this, the mother of the Buddhas, Mahaprajnaparamita is called, so this is something that, I used to think that it was just, we were saying Mahaprajnaparamita to the literature, these sutras that were in books, but I actually feel that the dedication is, it's a lot more juicy, you might say, to actually visualize this beautiful wisdom figure, and bring that to mind, rather than these books. I mean it's, we treat the books with great respect, you know, the sutras and all, but to actually, when we do that chant, to actually visualize this being is very, there's some other effect it has on you.

[28:46]

For those of you who long for some devotional practices, you can visualize Mahaprajnaparamita. So, also just, I just wanted to mention this in terms of, I just want to bring out how many female kinds of things that are there already that we don't even notice, or kind of, like in the meal chant when we say, I have to put my hands like I show, or it won't come out, let's see, let us recite the ten names of the Buddha. The Buddha homage to the Dharmakaya Vairochana Buddha homage to the Maha Sambhogakaya Lochana Buddha. Lochana Buddha is a female Buddha. Lochana is the earth Buddha, and it is female Buddha, Lochana, and it's, it has to do with place, and you know the word Lokia, Lokia is the blood that is in the uterus that helps, let's see when it comes out.

[30:03]

Sometimes, right before birth there's a, some blood comes out before the baby comes out, that blood is called Lokia, and this is kind of earth blood, and it's the same, and it means place, and Lochana is the female Buddha, Lochana Buddha. We also chant her, every morning, I mean, that we have Oryoki breakfast, you know, but this is just, I never knew that, that Lochana was a female Buddha. So, there it is, it's, there's places where it's right there, you know, but we don't, it's not brought forward that these, this balance of male and female images and devotional beings. So, let's see, we've been talking about, we were talking about androcentric scholarship, where certain stories were not retold, certain stories were told, certain things were written down, others were ignored, and there's a whole part of the Pali canon called the Kuddalavaksa,

[31:32]

that is a part of the canon, is a part of the liturgy, not exactly liturgy, but the sutras and things that were saved and, you know, gathered together as the teachings. But this, this particular one is translated as miscellaneous, I think I might have mentioned this, and it was kind of, even though it was written down and recorded, it was put in this category called miscellaneous. And what it is, is stories of the nuns. They're biographies, actually, they're not really biographies, they're, I never know how to pronounce this word, hagiographies, hagiographies, does anyone know how to pronounce that? H-A-G-I-O. And it's, it's really biographies of, not exactly legendary figures, but the biographies are teaching stories, really, rather than actual biographies. Like the Buddha's biography is a hagiography, it's a legendary thing that you can learn from.

[32:48]

And often famous teachers, there'll be certain elements that are always there, they had a miraculous birth, or, you know, certain signs, and these are, so there's this, this group of these biographies of the first women nuns. Now the, the first Buddhist women, this is a translation of the Therigata, which is their poems, and the, this other section is called the Agama, and it's the biographies based on these poems. Now, there's commentary, there's a commentary on this particular section of the Canon, and what, the commentary comes later, the commentary comes in about 6th century, and these are at about the 3rd century B.C., these Therigatas, were written down, they were orally transmitted, and then they were written down about 3rd century B.C., and then there was a commentary on this Agama,

[33:58]

which basically, this is the androcentric scholarship, it glossed over all the nuns' stories, and basically dropped them out, and said it was just the, there's monks' and nuns' stories, biographies. So, someone has recently, this is also part of the Canon that hasn't been fully translated into English, and one of the stories in this is, excuse me, Apadana, is the Gotami Apadana, which is Mahapajapati, who is called Gotami, her complete story, her biography. And it's all in poems, in verse, and it basically equates her life, it comes right up at her death, this particular biography is at the time of her death, her going into parinirvana, and it's probably written by women nuns, and it equates Gotami's story with Gotama, which is the Buddhist name.

[35:11]

So it's like equal, for example, she decides that she's going to go into parinirvana, and there's this, when she makes this decision, there's this earthquake that happens, and all of the world shakes, and this is also similar to the Buddhist story. Let's see, I wanted to read you a couple of things from here. So she says, Gotami says, I cannot bear to look upon the Buddha's final passing, nor that of his two chief disciples, nor Rahula, fetter, Ananda, joy, and Nanda, that was her son, delight. Ending life's constituents, and letting go, I shall go out, go out is a translation of parinirvana, to go out, like extinguish, permitted by the greatest sage, by he who is the whole world's lord, that's the Buddha, and then these 500 nuns that were there, and the rest reasoned that very thing out, that same thing, they too reasoned out, so they all want to go with her.

[36:19]

And then there was an earthquake, the gods thunder roared, weighed down by grief, the goddesses who dwelt there wailed and wept. The nuns all came to Gotami and bowed their heads upon her feet while questioning her thus. Anyway, there's various things that happen in her lifetime that completely makes her a real model, if you want to say, for the religious life of women. And this is in the Theravadan school, now usually we think of the Theravadan school as being very, if not misogynist, very androcentric and kind of putting the women down, but here was this whole thing that was written, and has subsequently been kind of silenced, and has just now actually been translated. So, then the Buddha, she goes to the Buddha and says she wants to go into Parinirvana, and he says, show, everybody's crying and everything, she says, you don't understand if you're crying like this, you know, there is no self, and she does all these teachings.

[37:34]

And the Buddha says, he says, Gotami basically says that the Buddha's teaching is achieved, she's achieved it, and the Buddha says, yet still there are these fools who doubt that women too can grasp the truth. Gotami, show miracles that they might give up their false views. And then she does these things, Gotami bowed to the Lord, then leaped into the sky, permitted by the Buddha, she displayed her special power, she was alone, then she was cloned, seems like a kind of interesting modern day, she doubled herself in some way, then she was cloned, cloned and then alone. She would appear then disappear, she walked through walls and through the sky, she went about unstuck on earth and also sank down in it, she walked on water as on land without breaking the surface, how about this, cross-legged, she flew like a bird across the surface of the sky.

[38:35]

With her body she controlled the space right up to God's own home, you know, there's Indra who lives in the heavens, she made the earth a canopy, Mount Meru was its handle, and twirling her new parasol she walked around the sky. Isn't that great? She was as though six suns arose, she made the world fume, as though it was the end of time, she garlanded the earth in flames, and so on, she concealed with finger's tip the makers of both day and night, as if her necklace had as gems a thousand suns and moons. So this is a very kind of marvelous, it's like other sutras you read where the Buddha sticks out his tongue and then worlds and suns and moons happen, well this is Gotami, this is happening too. So it goes on, and there's a narrator, her miracle display complete, that nun descended from the sky, paid homage to the world's lamp, then sat down at one side, and so on.

[39:56]

And then the lay folk were there and they said, your prowess has been shown sister in super normal miracles, and Gotami, the narrator says, Gotami then told them all how she had come to be a saint, and then she tells her story how she came with her past lives. Oh this is part of this, is showing that in past lives she was a person, this is as a teaching story that you too, as a model, you too can become fully realized religious, have a fully realized religious life. And because in the olden days she was kind of a regular person, but she was born into a world where Buddha was teaching, and heard this, and seeing him my mind, this is in her past lives, she saw this Buddha, she said, seeing him my mind was pleased, and then I heard his lovely voice, that guide for men was making his aunt chief of all the nuns, this is from before too.

[41:06]

And she gives gifts to the Buddhas of the past lives, anyway she planted her wholesome roots in the past lives, and then was born again, and fully accomplished the religious life, so this is a whole complete story with all the makings, there's nothing left out, it's equal to the Buddha's life. And probably would have been a helpful thing to have for people through the years as a regular story that they knew about Gotami. So, I thought we might do this as a play sometime, because it has all these parts, there's the narrator, the lay folk, the Buddha, Rahula and Nanda get to say a few things, Ananda gets in there, and at the end, she goes out, her lamp goes out, meaning she dies, and they build a funeral pyre with fragrant wood and sprinkle them with sweet perfume, and put her on there, and each part of them had been consumed, only bones remained then, at that time Ananda spoke words giving rise to deep emotion,

[42:28]

and Ananda said, Gotami is gone, no life, and now her body's burnt, the indication is that soon the Buddha too will leave, and the narrator said, Ananda put all her bones into her begging bowl, that image really struck me, to have all those years of going with your begging bowl and feeding yourself, and then to have your bones, if you've seen ashes after they've been cremated, there's ashes and then there's actually pieces of bone that are left, some are pretty good size and some are smaller, but it's a combination, putting all those into her begging bowl, then urged to do so by the Lord, he gave them to the Buddha, taking them up with his hands, the seventh sage then spoke, the seven Buddhas before Buddha, he actually was the seventh, and this is what the Buddha says, do you mind reading this, is this okay, I'm not losing you, falling asleep, the Buddha says,

[43:37]

even the trunk of a huge timber tree, however massive it may be, will break to bits eventually, thus Gotami, who was a nun, is now gone out completely, it is so marvelous a thing, my mother, who has reached nirvana, leaving only bits of bone, had neither grief nor tears, she crossed this ocean of existence, grieving not for others left, she now is cool, she's well gone out, her torment now is done, know this, O monks, she was most wise, with wisdom vast and wide, she was a nun of great renown, a master of great powers, she cultivated divine ear and knew what others thought, in former births, before this one, she mastered divine eye, all imperfections were destroyed, she'll have no more rebirths, she had purified her knowledge of meaning, and the doctrines of etymology and preaching, therefore she did not grieve, an iron rod of glow and fire, cools off and leaves no ash, just like the flame, once in the rod, it's not known where she went,

[44:54]

those who are emancipated, cross the God of lusts, deluge, those with solid happiness do not get born again, therefore be lamps for yourselves, go graze in mindfulness, with wisdom seven parts attained, you all should end your woe, so even this last part that the Buddha speaks, be a lamp unto yourselves, that's the same thing supposedly the Buddha said when he died to his disciples, be a lamp unto yourselves, so this was said about her as well, wisdom seven what? parts attained, I'm not sure exactly what that refers to, the seven limbs of enlightenment, the seven aren't those the things that were listed before? the seven parts, the divine eye and the divine ear what were the listings of the things that she had attained?

[45:55]

she had purified her knowledge of meaning and doctrines of etymology and preaching are those the seven? I'm not sure what those seven are, I'll look, I'll see if I can find out so, Gotami's story is, you know, it was not chosen to be retold very much, I'd never heard it before, I don't know if anybody else had come across it his teaching, so it's this, the importance of this mothering image so what do you think about that? I'm trying to think, I'm thinking how that story plays today, what it means

[47:00]

here, and I was thinking a couple of things, I don't know if it all comes together at all but in the beginning when we were sharing thoughts that carried over from last week and you were saying you're attempting to present without blame so that we all stay in this together that's not, that isn't exactly what you said, but that's the only way the class can go on and I translated that in my mind to say, well that's the only way life can go on that's the only way we can all actually go on and I thought of this book that was written a long time ago, the only thing I remember out of it, it's called Pedagogy of the Oppressed where if you have revolution and the oppressor, oppressed overcomes the oppressor if they become the oppressor they just recreate the system, that's not really liberation

[48:02]

it's just what Christina said, it's like swapping sides and as I was listening to you read these things that Gotami had accomplished I thought of something Rev once said, is that the Buddha had accomplished all of these, this and that you know, he saw his past lives and had these psychic powers, but that wasn't liberation that was his various powers, but that wasn't liberation and I was thinking about that as you were reading these various things that she accomplished and I've been hearing this word more currently, it's the current word, currency here, it's liberation I mean I understand we didn't talk about it before, but specifically that wording so I wonder about that word in this story that you just read and how that pertains to our study or practice here in this realm or outside this realm

[49:10]

how is this story contributing in a way to liberation? Someone spoke with me during the week about what you said about the pedagogy of the oppressed and if the oppressed just get on top and oppress the others then it's just exactly the same thing and someone was mentioning how through this study it's liberation for both men and women the understanding of this liberates everybody it's not once you have this information then you can use it in some way to be on top

[50:17]

it's more this understanding makes things in balance I guess and anybody can add to that if they'd like to I feel how this works, you know, Rita Gross in that Buddhism After Patriarchy talks about a usable past, what is a usable past? and I like that term a lot because just as Christina was saying and Lena was saying, these things are handed down we don't know what went on there, we weren't there, we don't know that culture and yet something is passed down, can you use it? when a story is told that doesn't include that says that women are not able to accomplish a religious life can you use that in your life? Is that a usable thing? for both men and women is it usable? so to me that's something, I mean there's the scholarship

[51:24]

and uncovering what has been written and then is it usable? if it's not usable, not that we throw it totally out but knowing that this is not usable and this is something that I can use so for example this story of Gotami I find it as a kind of usable, it's a usable story it can be a kind of model for both men and women that men and women both have miraculous powers can do supernatural things, can teach in a certain way this is not relegated to one gender or another so to have a story like this to me makes a very usable past so that's how I see it and it's the Arhat ideal this extinguishing and going out and being cool

[52:26]

this is not coming anymore, this Gotami will not return well maybe that's not so usable for us we are more tending towards the Bodhisattva ideal that always comes back in any guise to help living beings so we may, that aspect of the story may not be so usable but the fact that this person see this story was supposedly written in the commentary on this written by women and shows a kind of that women had a place in the Buddhist life at this time to be able to have written this and have it go into the canon and that by reading this story that produces more that will help produce a strength and

[53:34]

I don't know about power but anyway feelings of possibility in the community to have such a model available so that's how I see it and for us it's unusual, it's unusual and that in itself is I would like it to be more or I would like it to be less unusual this is just one of the stories we know about Gotami going into full lotus and flying across the sky supposedly when Buddhist teachers went into Tibet one of the things they did was they had they converted people from the bone religion of Tibet the natural shamanistic native religion and they converted them through doing these supernatural things you know, levitation and that's one of the stories that we hear of

[54:41]

levitation and other kinds of things in that way and this helped to convert the Tibetan people now whether one believes these kinds of things or not but anyway to have a woman example of this kind of thing it's just a balance, you know, it just, it widens if one had an understanding that this was relegated to only certain people this widens, you know so that's how I see it as being usable and so this thing about models, I actually found this I don't know if I have it with me some note that somebody wrote me after I gave a lecture I think one of the first lectures I gave and they wrote I don't think they particularly thought the lecture was all that great

[55:44]

but they said the fact, just having a woman walk into the room and take that seat was very important to them, you know so having models, both, having models of both genders I think is helpful, I think it's helpful for men and women to see to see both and this story in particular it's a model for example also that in Zen do now on a Sunday that everybody who lectures sits in the same seat has a similar effect it's like that everybody can, has the potential some ways to get there, like having the potential to get enlightenment and so I have found that a very big change and I really appreciate that to see all these different people sitting in the same seat to give a lecture whether they're men or women or abbots or

[56:45]

give their first talk after having the issue that is not, no, it's the same seat even though it's a different person you know when we do the chant to start the lecture an unsurpassed penetrating and perfect Dharma is rarely met with even in a hundred thousand million kalpas you know what a kalpa is? how many don't know what a kalpa is? a kalpa is a time, it's a length of time that it takes for an iron mountain as high as the highest mountain in the world a bird passing once every hundred years carrying a very light piece of silk in its beak drapes it lightly across the top of this mountain and the time it takes for that mountain to wear down to the ground is one kalpa this is the Indian mind, you know it does this thing where it takes you so far and then it's like you're just over the edge, you can't so even in a hundred thousand million kalpas

[57:52]

it's still rarely what? it's rarely met with even in a hundred thousand million kalpas having it to see and listen to to remember and accept I vow to taste the truth of the Tathagata's words so you know are you talking about me? you say that and then it's your turn to talk, right? and yet we chant that before each person speaks and before you chant it upon opening the Buddhist texts you pay that much attention to whatever this person is going to try and speak, whoever it is that same chant is chanted for each person and this helps you to focus your mind and open your mind and be ready to hear whatever you can hear

[58:54]

whatever dharma drop of dharma milk might come forth and maybe you don't hear anything but that's your state of mind, that's the work you do you know you vow to taste the truth of the Tathagata's words so it's this two-way street between the people who are ready to hear and then the person who's attempting to speak, you know and it's very helpful if there's balance, you know of who gets to speak and who doesn't, you know I'm sorry, I wasn't here Sunday to hear you talk but then I heard you talk and she said it was one of the best talks she'd ever heard since she's been here she's been here quite a while thank you

[59:54]

so, how are we doing here? it's kind of a, you feel like it's kind of a slow evening is everybody engaged? I feel like it's really hot hot, hot can you, we can open up more things can those go open this is what I had wanted, this is one of my ideas I wanted to do that Gotami story just so you kind of heard it and then to get into some of these other arhats who were with Gotami, she was the first and then there were a number of women who went with her and this is what my plan was to, if you had your books to just assign people different, one of these women and then you get to kind of report and say their poems would you like to do that? would that be fun to do? Mary, you had your hand up earlier actually well, the thing that you discussed was, I think it brought up that

[61:03]

when I wasn't thinking about it, it didn't seem to matter when I didn't see women in positions in religious positions or as musicians without seeing women, or anywhere, you know, wherever I've gone but as soon as I see a woman in that position it's, thunder strikes me and it becomes so amazing which, you're like, why should it be amazing and I'm touched so deeply that it is very important to see the balance that it does make a difference and that we are different I mean, men and women have different qualities and it's really important for me to see all those qualities up there because they work together I agree and I also just feel I want to bring up at this point that the Dharma is neither male nor female

[62:04]

you know, so and and the teaching and yet, you know, it's it's the teaching of emptiness, you know form is emptiness and emptiness is form so you can't be in this world without some form that's just the way it is and that form is emptiness so to know about that form, to study that form is also studying emptiness so each person needs to study their form and I find that to study the self to study the self, that's like to study form is to forget the self, form is emptiness, you know but you can't just kind of leap into emptiness and say, well, I'm going to just study emptiness you study it through form and

[63:06]

emptiness as I've said before, isn't floating around emptiness is form so for each person to study their selves it's not, you don't stop there I just want to kind of make that clear you don't want to stop at, ok, this is this is who I am and and it's which would be a separating kind of a study this is who I am and don't tread on me, kind of, you know but it's more understanding thoroughly who you are thoroughly who you are in the world you know, I'm a woman, you're a man where's there been any mix up you know that koan that we started out with and studying that, studying I'm a man studying I'm a woman, you're a man that studying form is emptiness

[64:09]

that's how you study emptiness ok, so but the purpose is not to kind of stay there at some solid attached clinging view of I'm a woman you know, it's to understand emptiness and be liberated, you know through this, through thoroughly understanding self, to forget the self and then to be enlightened by all things so that's that's what the that's what I hope the class to be accomplishing if we want to accomplish or to be pointing at or is that clear? but I can feel like sometimes we we can fall off into you know fall off the you know, renegotiating this you kind of one can get waylaid a little bit

[65:11]

do you know what I mean? and then you have to kind of come back to why are we studying this again? you know, we do these we had a one day sitting women's one day sitting whenever it was, a week ago, Saturday not this Saturday and I remember someone saying about the fact that we had women's one day sittings they said, I don't understand these theme sittings you know and they don't go to them either and they're not interested in them and I think they see it as why would we have a gay and lesbian sitting? what's that all about? and why would there be a men's sitting which we've also had what's the purpose? I just like to sit, you know and I feel like there's merit if you want to say merit or something to be understood in each one of those theme sittings if you want to call them a theme sitting or theme park a regular everyday sitting which is all mixed up you know

[66:11]

and then there's sometimes we emphasize this over here to study it sometimes we emphasize this and that will help us study but the purpose is not the emphasis it's not to emphasize women sitting together that's not the emphasis the emphasis is what happens when women sit together that can be revealing that can liberate how one understands oneself so anyway that's just a couple of things one is that well the first thing is that I'm really hesitant to open my mouth and I don't know I just have to take a look at that and see where that comes from but one thing that you said was

[67:11]

that the Dharma is neither male nor female and fine but it's really hard to get that if all you ever hear are male teachers or read that so Kendra centric stuff and so that to me is why partly why I like this class because so would you I think you're doing great so so the Dharma is neither male nor female and what begins to be the conclusion when you read or just hear male teachers what what happens it just feels that it's all male

[68:13]

so even though the teaching says such and such if it comes from only the mouths of well or if you never hear women's stories you know or if we chant all men's names you know like to me well during the first practice period that I did in January I really picked up right away how Rev uses he and she and you know it isn't just all he but all the teachings are about men or about men all the teachings that would be presented well you know like if he well we were studying koans and there weren't any women in those you know and it just

[69:18]

I don't know then it doesn't feel like the Dharma is male and female or neither or neither you're right yeah well I think that's true you know and because we live in androcentric society we get very used to that right the women get very used to it and the men are very used to it too and it doesn't Rev actually tells a story which I'll use to illustrate this of being going to Japan being in Japan and in and being a priest in Japan visiting these monasteries and temples and being treated like you know the word gaijin foreigner or barbarian I think it actually translates and he was treated

[70:22]

in such a way as if he couldn't understand Buddhism or how could a non-Japanese understand Zen and so and this caused a lot of this was uncomfortable you know to realize that these people who were relating to him and this I've heard from other people who have traveled in Japan assumed that they couldn't understand that they weren't you know up to snuff right and it's very uncomfortable and very you get anyway and black minorities you know black people in this country or all the different minorities what? old people and old people you know you get there's something that comes your way I just heard this on the radio where this woman was saying

[71:22]

she was tired of people she was had her PhD a black woman at a university had her PhD and she would be like shopping and people would treat her like she was dumb you know like she was stupid and couldn't understand and she was tired of it you know so anyway this is pain this being unseen and prejudged and all that this is pain and men feel it in various contexts and women feel it in lots of different contexts and when you when it comes to your religious practice you know or your the Dharma it's very painful to feel as if somehow there's no women there and so they're supposed they're probably not up to snuff or that gets that's like a subtle message you know that's always coming through

[72:23]

or the lineage chanting the lineage I don't know for men I mean I'd like to hear from some of the men how would it be if we chanted all women's names every morning you know would that have some effect or not you know and I feel like I'm used to it and I love the names I love I love to say each one I love all their stories and at the same time and that's what we're going to do actually we won't do it today but we're going to chant the women all these Arhat women will do that next week when we study them but that is something we do every morning and that has a kind of effect you know over the years I think and I don't know if the men I'd like to hear maybe from one of you if you'd like to say is that something you don't have to say it's just it's out of balance in some way even though we love these teachers we love I love these teachers these grandfathers

[73:23]

of the Dharma you know yeah that's true but you know this is funny because a few months ago when I was getting on an airplane I'm walking onto the plane and I noticed that the pilot was a woman and I thought oh no I'm not going on this plane did you feel that? I did I did not feel secure with a woman but I used to feel that way with women doctors and now I love women doctors it is indoctrination yeah I just wanted to echo what Mary and Judith said too that the importance for me in the theme settings and the or a class even that has a theme or focus or access to women teachers is that for me it's profoundly healing and that before I can enter or even explore what emptiness means that I've had to look at what it means

[74:24]

to live feeling invisible and that I remember Ram Dass once said you have to have a self before you can lose yourself and that that as a woman it would be easy to just remain invisible and that it's far more difficult to enter into the profound anger and grief much harder to stay with that and using the Dharma to ground me in how painful that process is and not to become polarized in it but to stay awake in the midst of it when sometimes it seems like I've given up a lot of the goodies from this culture by trying to live this in a different way by trying to live to try to challenge invisibility and to walk that middle ground from invisible to visible to then empty yes

[75:25]

yes beautifully said well I think it is healing you know I think when you're treated a certain way and don't see yourself reflected and mirrored or models there's pain there that you may not be able even to recognize and then it's kind of presented and you you get it you know and then the the balancing of it is is very healing and it's true it's like this thing about I'm a woman and you're a man where's there been any mix up until you understand you know I think we'll get into this but you know these teachings of surrender and altruism you know putting oneself last and putting yourself forward these are teachings that for women have a different valence than for men you know for women putting yourself last is a way of life is a way of

[76:26]

of life that may not be healthy you know where you are sort of doormat type practice and and Buddhism is not saying oh be a doormat you know for all beings it's it's something else but it can be misunderstood or surrender but and for men that can be a very profound to actually surrender maybe for a man who's been having to prove themselves and be on top and all those pressures you know of being a male in this society and then and then they hear a teaching that says surrender and that that is that might be profoundly healing so so you have these teachings and you have to know where you are you know you have to know how it is that you relate to that you can't just swallow it whole what is surrender for you I'm a woman and you're a man where is there been any mix up so

[77:26]

this thing of dropping the ego and you have to know who you are first or it's just a problem you know it's just it's it's escape and it's further pain you know so we need to stop now because it's nine o'clock and so Linda what are we going to do about these books do you want to I can either I don't know how many are coming in before the day so I can arrange to bring the books next week so you guys purchase it maybe just a light check one is 15 dollars and one is 16 and the tax is 7.25 so I don't know a total so you want to bring it a light check or pretty much I can bring a couple

[78:29]

singles maybe a change well the people who are living here can buy them in the office so please do that and the people who are coming from outside a check would be great if you want to do it tonight you can help them yes so you can maybe go with Linda to the office and purchase them okay and I don't know exactly what to do about assigning the different ones let's see what could we do why don't we wait until we get our books we won't do this next week we'll assign them next week once you have your books in hand and you can look at it and see maybe there's certain ones you'd like to kind of report on everybody I don't think will be able to have one but and then next week we'll do something different and then that following week let's see this is the third class so the fourth will do something different and the fifth class will is that okay or is that I'm putting it too far off let's do that and then we'll chant we'll chant their names with Dayo Shows that day too after we've done their poems that'll be the fifth class okay

[79:30]

so let's end with our chant Chant. May your intention... May your intention...

[79:43]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ