Yes, right now. Yeah, and there's only the one, we have two cameras, but only camera one really has a good end on all three of us, so. Yeah, in what way? Pretty straightforward, yeah, and just listen for, you know, if the sound, you know, that sort of ringing sort of sound that happens before feedback, we were getting a little bit of that at various times last week, so. Nothing happens. You can turn it on. That sound means that somebody has turned up too much. You don't think they sing sound? It's like when someone speaks, there's like a little, oh, something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ring it, which I really call it. I think that's it. I think that's it.

[01:03]

Yeah, so with that start, let's meet the room. I'll be right back. Yeah, and then GSD, so there won't be such an episode. Anybody online has questions or comments, get me to unbeat the computer. Jason Schell is running the Zoom room. That's what you think. I think he's like putting these on a very bad hour. Yeah, until... We'll let you know. It's not Victor, it's Vinod. Yeah, yeah. This is probably the second time.

[02:04]

And then as I've done this, I'm going to do it more times. But also let me You know, I will have to see the light of it. ... [...] If no one pulls it behind me, let me know and I'll scooch back.

[03:18]

I figured, you know, somebody's got a... It's not just brave, it's even a fountain brave to be inside a subject. What is the heart? Does everybody want to see? Oh no, I won't say that. Yeah, it's a lie. It's [...] a lie. I don't want to start something else.

[04:47]

I was watching my video this yesterday because I was trying to look at my photo and I was just thinking of tellers because I was watching my photo and I was [...] watching my photo and I was thinking of tellers because I was watching my photo and I was watching my photo and I was thinking of tellers because I was watching my photo and I was watching my photo and I was thinking of tellers because I was watching my photo and I was thinking of tellers because I was watching my photo and [...] I was thinking of tellers because I was watching my photo and I You get some of my sightings out to buy myself a progressive student. You know, I didn't know how I was pure bucks or something. I know. Okay, no, I couldn't let you out there where I was. I know, you didn't do that. I can't. It's a good issue situation. We've got to look here and approach them and let them send them back. Thank you. You can give it to us. Why is this in such a sense? Can you see okay?

[06:14]

You're very well trained, so I stepped right on it. You should welcome. Thank you. So what would you like to see? There's one more seat up here, and then there's a couple in the middle right here. There's more people than more chips. Oh, look at me. Now the baby, there's a seat up here. There's like three seats. Can you see? No, but I read that. Okay, welcome here if you want.

[07:23]

We are going to begin this week, but now we can't. I'm sitting in the last week. Very Nazi. Throw some away. Is this on?

[08:30]

I think they are on now. Can everybody hear us? One, two. Can you hear us? It's on. Great. Welcome, everyone, and welcome to those of you who are joining us online. So are we introducing ourselves first? No, first, I don't know, I think first. Yes, we are. We're introducing ourselves first. My name is Tim Wicks, and I currently serve as Tanto here. I've been practicing at Zen Center for 25 years. I've been living here just for a couple of years. And... You're the sewing teacher as well. And I'm also the sewing teacher. We sew our rocks, who's in Oquesas here. And this is Ken Hart. My name is Kim Kogen Daiho Hart, and... I was here in 2016, having been a resident here for four years, but also trained internationally before coming here.

[09:34]

And I'm going to be making the offering of a short presentation this evening. And now, Dan. I'm Dan Gudgel. I'm also one of the resident priests here. I lived a few years at Tassajara before coming here, and I've been here now since early 2023. And I am also the director of online content. helping with the online courses and classes, the online Zendo, those sorts of things. And delighted to be talking about the show again. Thank you. So this series of classes, we're calling them salons, because we want to try and have a casual feeling. We want to encourage dialogue. But most importantly, we want to drink tea. So if you don't have any tea, please help yourselves to tea in the back right there. And if you need to get up to get some more tea, feel free to do so.

[10:38]

If you need to get up and go to the restroom, feel free to do so. The idea is to have a casual feeling here as best we can. Ricky, are you okay? Do you need a chair? You okay? Thanks. All right. Okay, so basically tonight... The structure of the class is going to be that Kim's going to talk for about 10 minutes. And then the three of us are going to have a little dialogue together. And then for about 10 minutes as well. And then we're going to send you off into not small groups, but large groups. And tonight we're going to try having one group be in that back room, the sunroom back there. Just so it's less cramped in the... Foreground, yeah. Yeah. So we'll send a group of people back there. And you'll all talk for about 20 minutes. And then we'll come back and we'll spend the last few minutes having a group discussion about what it is that came up and maybe some things that didn't come up.

[11:48]

Yeah, I just wanted to say just a little bit about the sort of sign-up process for anyone who wants to get a PDF of the three translations that we're comparing of Dogen's book show. So these salons for the month of July are taking the place of our regular Wednesday night Dharma talks. So there's absolutely no requirement to... sign up for any of this stuff. If you have wandered in expecting a Dharma talk, you're still in the right place. Don't worry. No previous exposure to Boucho is necessary. Or Dogen. Or Zen. We'll walk you through it. But if anyone would like to get onto the list to receive... emails about what we're discussing to receive reminders about which sections we're reading. You can go to the sfzc.org website and find any of the calendar listings for any of these Wednesday nights during July, and there's a registration link there.

[12:56]

It's completely free. And if you sign up there, then you'll get a sort of weekly email with any information that relates to that week. And if anyone who has previously signed up did not get the sorts of email reminder or PDF of the text that you were expecting, come talk to me after this salon, and we can just make sure that you're on whatever list you need to be on. Thanks. Okay. Thank you. Dan, over to you, Ken. Over to me. I'm going to stand up, dissipate the nerves a little bit. So you've got the three translations. Pretty much, mine is kind of a short section, pages four to six. And to start, I want to say I'm standing on the 100-foot pole, which is Busho, stepping off the 100-foot pole, which is Busho, and delving into... this teaching, which is Busho.

[13:57]

But I want to start by saying, by referencing something interesting that actually happened last week. I learned something new about Dogen. This is so weird because I can't see you guys. I'm going to be jumping back and forth with this. Bunch of beautiful faces. One of the things that happened last week is that my teacher, Ryushin, who's sitting over here right now, was part of a group where my bestie, Emily, who's sitting in the front, was sitting. And afterwards, I met up with her, and I was like, so, Emily, what did you should have to say? And she was like, well, he said something really interesting. And I was like, what was it? And she said, and this is the thing I thought I'd share with you. She said, well, when Dogen, in the Shobogenzo, is writing a fascicle, the first sentence of that fascicle encapsulates the essence of the entire fascicle. Then, for a short section after that, there is a degree of kind of which tends to be a kind of an explanation. And then for a large section after that, half maybe to two thirds, really what he's doing is he's trying to evoke

[15:03]

the experience of what he's trying to communicate. He'll use kind of poetic language. You know, words don't tend to touch the absolute very easily, and so he will use poetic language, sometimes contradicting himself, but really it's like a finger pointing to the moon, and it's a lot more kind of nebulous. So I wanted to mention that because my section that I've asked you guys to read is kind of early on in this, in Bouchot. It doesn't include the first sentence, but it's... It's kind of, as you see, page four. It's right in the early part. So it's still kind of an explanatory section. But because Ryushin pointed out how important the very first sentence is, I want to read it to you guys. So here we go. One moment, please. Now, the translation that I've chosen or the one that I actually have at home is Nishijima and Cross. So I'll start with that one. Then I'll read Tanahashi and then Wadal and Abe. So Nishijima and Cross translation of the first sentence goes like this. Shakyamuni Buddha says, all living beings totally have the Buddha nature.

[16:07]

The Sathagata abides constantly without changing at all. Then the Tanahashi and Weitzman, Mel Weitzman, who happens to be one of our senior elders. He passed recently. He's Ryushin's teacher, actually, in our lineage. Their translation says, Shakyamuni Buddha said, living beings all are Buddha nature. The Sathagata is continuously abiding and not subject to change. So straight away here, I want to point out this distinction between all beings, all living beings totally have the Buddha nature versus all living beings are the Buddha nature. The final translation, the one that Dan is working with is Waddell and Abe. It's pronounced Abe, right? Not Abe. Abe. It goes like the Shakyamuni Buddha said in the Nirvana Sutra, all sentient beings without exception have the Buddha nature. So Thagata abides forever without change. So again, there's have the Buddha nature. Now, this really struck me as interesting.

[17:08]

And it kind of links to what it is that my section talks about, which is the temporal nature of Buddha nature, the temporal aspect of Buddha nature. These are the wrong ones. This is kind of comic. When I was doing my research about this, I went online, and one of the translations, somebody was saying, they were like, the essence of what Dogen is actually saying here is that being is Buddha nature. So we can say all living beings. We're talking about all beings. It becomes a noun. But if he says being is Buddha nature, then it becomes continuous if we look at the nature of language. And this... directly points to the temporal nature, the temporal aspects of Buddha nature. Because if Buddha nature is investigating and discovering that everything is impermanent, that the self is empty of any inherent or independent nature, then we can understand that it does not exist independent of time.

[18:22]

Being is Buddha nature inherently includes, well, I shouldn't say inherently because it's confusing, but it includes this aspect of time. That Buddha nature is time arising the same way that you are time arising. Because we are not independent of time, but we are instead an expression of time. So now, sorry, I'm just checking the time down there. So now, if you're looking at the section that I suggest that you guys read, the first lines of it are, wanting to know the meaning of Buddha nature, we should just reflect real time, causes, and circumstances. When the time has come, the Buddha nature is manifest before us. We should just reflect real time, translated also as intimately observe cause and effect over time, and also... contemplate temporal conditions. So he's pointing again here to the nature of time. He also says, when the time has come, the Buddha nature is manifest before us.

[19:27]

Translated as well to when the time is ripe, Buddha nature manifests, or if the time arrives, the Buddha nature will manifest itself. I found this last one interesting, if the time arrives. Dogen completely blows that out the water. He's like, what do you mean if the time arrives? The time is. We'll get into that in a little bit. So he unpacks this a little bit further, where he says here, people have thought that the words, when the time has come, it's about waiting for a time in the future when Buddha nature might be manifest before us. They think that continuing their practice with this attitude, they'll naturally meet the time when the Buddha nature is manifest before them. And they say that because the time has not yet come, the Buddha nature is not manifest before them. He says the words wanting to know the meaning of the Buddha nature mean really knowing the meaning of Buddha nature just here and now.

[20:31]

Now, this is very important here because, again, he's bringing in this temporal aspect. Wanting to know... or really knowing the meaning of Buddha nature, just here and now, we reflect real time. And just here and now, we hear that expression all the time. We hear it every day in our life. We hear it a lot in Zen. Be here and now. It's here and now. But let's look at that. Here is space. It is form. And now is time. And it is one of the things that we've learned even through contemporary investigations into physics, is that time and space or time and form is a continuum. They're actually an expression of one another. They are not independent of one another. So it's space and time coming together. Dogen says, should reflect just real time, causes and circumstances. This means no causes, circumstances as real time, just here and now. If you want to know this Buddha nature, remember, causes and circumstances as real time are just it.

[21:42]

When the time has come means the time has come already. What could there be to doubt? And this, again, is what he's pointing out here. We are not distinct from time. If we were distinct from time, we could say, well, we're waiting for the time to come. Once the circumstances are right, then Buddha nature will appear. But that, by definition, implies that we are separate from time. And he is challenging this. He's like saying, how could you even think that? You are an expression of time. The time is already here. How could it possibly be otherwise? So I'm just going to finish off here with the very last little section of this particular part of Bouchot. He says, in summary, there has never been any time which was not time having come, nor any Buddha nature which was not the Buddha nature manifesting itself before us. So I'll read that just missing out a bunch of words just to make it simpler. In summary, there has never been any time which was not already here, nor any Buddha nature which was not Buddha nature manifesting itself right now.

[22:48]

So there you go. That's my take on that. He was definitely somebody trying to point towards a radical non-dualism, and he does it fantastically here, I think, talking to us about the relationship between time and being, which is what Buddha nature is. So, what do you guys think? Thank you, Kim. You're very welcome. Yeah, it's really hard to get your head around, because we're so conventionally conditioned to deal with time in a linear, fashion. In Uji, he goes in depth, another fascicle, he goes in depth into trying to get us to get our head around this idea that there's a continuum and it's really difficult to get your head around.

[23:52]

Well, especially because of impermanence, because if we understand impermanence that we are arising moment by moment and that there is no... I think it was Suzuki Roshi, correct me if I'm wrong here, who said that our life is kind of like if you think about film footage from back in the day before everything was digital and there were individual pictures on footage of film. But when we see it passing before us, it looks like there's a continuum, but it's not. There's a present moment. It's constantly arising. And I think Dogen himself says 84,000 moments in a second. And he says that just as an expression of saying, this is the nature of our life. It's time expressing itself constantly. And it doesn't have this continuation. And that is essentially Buddha nature. It's what's underpinning reality. It's emptiness. It's shunyata. Yeah, I think to me, this section, I feel like Dogen is kind of pointing again and again at how we get in the way, how our sort of fixed personal viewpoint kind of hides that Buddha nature is arising, that it is

[25:15]

in this present moment. And only in this present moment. This section, one of the sections that you referenced, Kim, right near the top of page five, just reflecting is not connected with the subject that reflects or the object of reflection, and it should not be equated with right reflection, wrong reflection, and the like. It is just reflection here and now. And that, to my ear, really echoed the just sitting of Zazen, that this just reflecting, this kind of being with the moment that Dogen is talking about, it seems to me maybe is not so different from the just sitting of Zazen, where we're kind of letting go of our personal perspective, letting go of our agenda, the you know, the goal, and just reflecting Buddha nature back at Buddha nature.

[26:24]

One of the things I really like about that just reflecting and how it's neither objective nor subjective, I think is what he says, which is very interesting, because how can it be, either objective nor subjective? But I remember, and this might be apocryphal, somebody said to me, they were sitting having dakosan with... Ryushin one day, and they saw a sign, and this might be entirely untrue, Ryushin, but I love the story, and apparently there's a little sign that says, mirror sees mirror, and they're talking about this reflection, because imagine what happens if you put two mirrors facing one another. There's emptiness for infinity, you know, and so that's what he's pointing to here. I think this is such a deep teaching about emptiness and the nature of time and the nature of that the fact that reality, that which underpins all expression, is empty, and that is Buddha nature, as opposed to what the Theravadans, I believe, continue to assert, that Buddha nature is some special kernel within us, that through right action we can kind of polish ourselves, like polishing a child until we become better human beings, which Dogen challenges and I challenge as well.

[27:28]

So, yes, it's a deep teaching on emptiness. constantly tripping us up in here. Know that when the time is right, that the 12 hours of the day are not passed in vain. When the time is, is like saying, when the time has arrived. When the time has arrived, is not arrival of the Buddha nature. He's just constantly going over the same thing and tripping us up, it feels like. Well, yeah, because he's saying that, like, well, don't be waiting for something to happen. If you're waiting for something, it implies you're outside of time. You are time. What are you doing waiting? Wake up. You know what I mean? I love that. It was so interesting because you've got the three different translations. And of course, my chosen translation is the one on the right. But I was unfamiliar with the other translations. And reading them, I'm like, well, these are pretty cool. I might actually have to check out these other translations. And then when I was talking to Dan about them, he was saying, well, actually, even section by section,

[28:30]

You know, like, for example, that Weitzman and Tanahashi, which I think is your chosen translation, where they start off with that first sentence saying, all beings are Buddha nature, whereas both the other two said have Buddha nature, which I was like, wow. Even by Zen scholars, there's a dispute as to how to translate that, you know? But like I said, I think the best one of being is Buddha nature because then it brings in the continuous. Like even hearing the word enlightenment is problematic because it implies that there's some noun, there's some fixed thing that's enlightenment as opposed to enlightening a continuous activity, which is all there is, is activity, constant change, impermanent activity. And we're an expression of that activity constantly. We've sort of kind of said, you know, being is Buddha nature, time is Buddha nature. Are there things that are not Buddha nature? Well, it's not that being is and time is so much as that. It's what underpins everything. It's what everything is made of.

[29:32]

It's how everything is expressed. So, yeah, nothing is excluded. But to say something is Buddha nature, we can trip ourselves up with our language because it's defining it as a noun and saying, well, is this noun that? It's like, no, it's an expression. It's an expression of emptiness. Less is from emptiness, right? Mm-hmm. Everything is a letter from emptiness. Even sound is coming out of silence, returning to silence, an expression of the moment. That's Buddha nature, according to Dogen. Well, shall we split up into groups now? Go in the same groups as you had last time, all different ones, whatever makes your heart light. People are probably sitting in slightly different positions. Why don't you folks over there in that corner, if you want to go into the sunroom.

[30:35]

You mean the people sitting on the floor, right? Yes. Yes. Maybe like six or seven of you. Yeah. Because we like to have decent-sized groups. I think we'll still end up in two groups in here, which is fine. Yeah, you're right. It's good. It's all good. Does anybody need a hard copy? Yes, I have hard copies. Sozan needs a hard copy at the back. You might have two there. Do you have two? Yeah, well, thank you. Does that say Kim on top? Yes. Yes, okay. Anybody else? Over here, Tanto Tim. I love saying Tanto Tim. Tanto Timbo.

[31:36]

Okay, so why don't you folks be a group sort of right here and then, yes, a group right there. You want to mention what the prompt is? The prompt is, what is the heart of this teaching? Did you hear that? Are you going to go to the back there, Simbo? Yeah. The prompt is, what is the heart of this teaching? And or anything else that is alive for you that you want to talk about. If there's something else that came up for you with this reading. Yeah. There's space in the back room for more people. I'm going to walk right through your group again. Sorry about that. I did this last week. All right, so we'll, are we going to ring a bell to start? Yes. We'll ring a bell to start and we'll ring a bell to stop. You guys are going to have about 20 minutes.

[32:38]

So it takes us to 10, to five past two, what past two? Yeah. Very good, Tammy. Should we move ourselves in closer? Thank you.

[54:02]

Yep, there it is. Thank you. Welcome back. Okay, welcome back, everyone. So, how did it go? What are some of the things that came up? What's the heart of this teaching? If you focused on that right there. We were talking over here about how it is that, you know, Dogen doesn't want us to... on one set explanation. Ron, at the beginning of this meeting today, he said that at Wikipedia, there's a summary of what we show, what Buddha nature means, and it's about two paragraphs long. So, of course, I said, so what are you doing here then? If you got it all summed up. But that's exactly what it is that Dogen doesn't want us to do, is to get... caught in an explanation.

[55:02]

I'm actually collecting, as I'm doing research, one-sentence summaries of what Buddha nature is, and I'm going to read a few of them to you when I have my section. But what are some of the things that came up for all of you just now? And we'll pass the microphone around so that folks online can hear everyone as well. We have about eight minutes or so to do this, so not long. Impressive. Well, I'm going to pass the microphone to you. Could you repeat that poem about time? Sometimes take time to make time. Sometimes take time to make time? Ah, lovely.

[56:04]

I just thought that was a very beautiful poem. Thank you. Just that, this is the one sentence for your collection, that this present moment arising, the summary is I am now. to you, Raven? I notice that the Nishijima and Cross translation offers something quite different than the other two translations.

[57:12]

I'm looking at the first page, and I'm seeing that Nishijima and Cross, in the last paragraph on the first page, introduce the language around real time, which is very interesting to me because it implies that they're trying to show that Dogen is teaching an understanding of time that is more, like, more real, maybe, or, like, more, like, deep. I just, I thought that that was beautiful language and really interesting. He says, it means, I don't know, He says, wanting to know the meaning of the Buddha nature doesn't just mean knowing, it means practicing and experiencing and so on. And all of these are the causes and circumstances of real time. To reflect the causes and circumstances of real time is to reflect using the causes and circumstances of real time.

[58:16]

And I was wondering if any of you had any thoughts about that, because I think it's nice. Yeah, I agree. I really noticed how different the different translations were as well. And I also appreciated the real time. In that particular section there, I just appreciate the combination of the words reflect, circumstances, and real time. Because reflect to me is talking about shunyata. Circumstances is talking about our life form. And real time is talking about time, temporal nature of things. And those combined is Buddha nature. But I really like this real time. Because if you think about this kind of language we use in contemporary time, right? We sort of talk about, oh, we had a conversation in real time. But that's what it's pointing to. It's like this. Here, now, bam, already gone. Real time, you know? Yeah, right? There's something about that section as well that kind of puts me in mind of the sort of unfolding process.

[59:22]

view of the world, where it says, to reflect the causes and circumstances of real time is to reflect using the causes and circumstances of real time. And there's a translation of uji, being time, that has a phrase that has been stuck in my head for several years now. which is entirely worlding the entire world with the entire world. So what is Uji? Uji is Dogen's fascicle about time, about the nature of time. Say it again, it's beautiful. Entirely worlding the entire world using the entire world. Because there's worlding, you see, that's that continuous again. Yeah, so I think this, Causes and circumstances of real time.

[60:24]

I feel like Dogen is trying to remind us that it's an activity and not discrete elements. Yes. Yeah, totally. Reminds me of Ryushin's saying, and I'm going to mess it up. I'll correct you. Yeah, thank you. Experiencing the experience. Experience the experience that's being experienced. Yeah. Very similar. The experience, the experience that's being experienced. What else came up for people? You just got time probably for one more. And if there's anyone online who wants to add anything, we do have that ability as well. Oh, yeah. Great. Great. We have an online comment. Could you pass the microphone back to... I think we'll be able to actually get their voices into our room.

[61:29]

Okay, great. Yeah, let's see. Exciting. Real time. Hi. Hello. We can hear you. Go ahead. What you brought up in the very first line about whether living beings totally have or totally are... to me, just brings up such a dilemma that if I totally have, then that sort of makes me want to complete myself by searching and seeking, which is one false path. And if I totally am, totally are, then that's... an original essence that, you know, maybe I would fall into the trap of waiting passively for it to appear.

[62:33]

So it seems like whether you say have or are, there can be a trap either way. I think Dogen at one point says they are facets of a jewel. And... both require great practice to realize. So no laziness, basically, because I think you make a very astute point. And if you're in a dilemma, I think you're exactly where it is that Dogen would like you to be. Yeah. Receptive questioning of the nature of reality. Open. Open. We're into our last five minutes, so we can all go home to bed. What else are our closing business? Yeah, we did a little bit of closing business. So I will be leading next week's exploration of a different section of this delightful text.

[63:36]

The page numbers that have been sent out show quite a long section. And I'll admit, it is quite a long section. There is no chance I'm going to be able to talk about the entirety of that section. No chance that any of us are going to be able to talk about the entirety of that section. So I just want to give you all a little bit of guidance. It opens, as so many of these sections do, it opens with a little sort of koan teaching story. And that is on... Page 13, as I recall. This will also get sent out. We'll send all this out via email. But it opens with a teaching story about Nagarjuna. Nagarjuna manifesting the full moon body of Buddha nature on the teaching seat. So that sort of koan story is kind of the hook for that section. But what I'm going to sort of focus on more is with him sort of taking that story in and then on page 20, Dogen begins talking about a personal experience that he had while he was in China in a monastery.

[64:51]

And so I'll mostly be talking about that sort of Dogen personal story portion of this section. It will, of course, point to all sorts of other things. If you want to focus in your reading a little bit, it's the Koan story and then Dogen's story about being in China. So that's essentially a little bit of page 13 from about the middle of page 13 and then page 20, which is much more concise than all of 13 to 22. And again, we'll send this out over email. And if you don't have a chance to read it beforehand, that's no problem as well. Come as you are. We welcome all sorts of feedback. We got some feedback last week that said we had too many prompts. So this time we just had the one. Very welcome. Very happy to hear feedback as to whether that worked better for you guys or anything about anything. You know, you can reach out to us and, you know, this is all an experiment. So it's nice to hear from you guys. So we're going to bow out.

[65:53]

And then if a few people could stay here and help us put the room back together so that we can have Zazen in here in the morning, that would be great. So let's bow out. Thank you, Erdogan. Thank you, everyone. Thank you. See you. Hello.

[67:00]

Well done. Thank you. Oh, yeah. I'm going to have to leave tasks in a little while.

[67:25]

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