This is tape TRC 89-1. The East-West Foundation presents Harmonia Mundi, Worlds in Harmony, October 1989, in Newport Beach, California. This is a forum dialogue with His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Think of this as His Holiness's living room. We're just rearranging a little furniture for a moment. We're all here together to talk. Your Holiness, friend, it's good we're here to talk, because the generation now alive is the first in human history to glimpse the possibility of the end of nature, the end of our world. We live in a planet that can die. The journal, the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, has had a clock on its cover for decades, and that clock tracks how close to the final hour,

[01:04]

to midnight, the human race were living. The clock has been at about a minute and a half to midnight for many decades. For a long time it was because of the nuclear peril. Now it's the ecological two. There's been added the spreading of deserts, the pollution of air and water, the heating of the planet, the world's trees being felled at 50 acres a minute, and on and on. And what we've done to the planet is no different than what we've done to humanity. We produce more food today than ever before in human history, yet more people starve than ever. There's a greater concentration of wealth than ever, and yet a greater gap between rich and poor than ever before. Democracy is more alive now, and yet some of the most oppressive regimes in history thrive.

[02:09]

And in this century we've seen the worst genocides of history. The Holocaust of World War II, a million Cambodians under the Khmer Rouge, many millions under both Stalin and Mao, including 1.2 million Tibetans dead. And now instantaneous communication leaves us no room for excuses. We see the poverty and disease, the hunger and oppression, the growth of deserts, the shrinking of forests. We see all too clearly the suffering, both individual and planetary. Ours is a world out of harmony. That's the occasion for this dialogue. His Holiness represents the one great culture centered on a wisdom tradition to survive intact into modern times.

[03:15]

And the fragility of our day is shown by the fact that even that culture survives intact, really fully, only in exile. Tibet represents a sort of a time capsule for the modern world from an age when life was centered on the spirit and the world was in harmony. When the inner sciences, the art of being, was developed to the highest levels. At a time when the modern world is adrift and in crisis, we need more than ever to bring this wisdom to bear. Science and technology have brought immense control over nature, but power without wisdom is dangerous. We need to balance our modern capabilities with an ancient wisdom. His Holiness often speaks of the interconnectedness of all things.

[04:18]

In a sense, what that means is we're all in this together. He has said, too, that because these times are so dire, it is a great honor to be alive now at this moment on this planet. It is we who bear the responsibility, who face the challenge, who must take care of the planet, not just for ourselves, but for the future, for our children. This dialogue will involve everyone in this hall, a fact that His Holiness is quite pleased with. Those of us on stage here are just the voices for all of our common concerns. After each of these public sessions, everyone is invited to join a group to further continue the discussion, to come up with more thoughts, more questions, more reflections,

[05:22]

and those will be brought back here at the next session to continue the dialogue so that everyone here will be part of the conversation. The spokesman, the mouth for those in the hall, will be Joel Edelman. Joel is very well suited for the task, being both a lawyer and a specialist in mediation, so I think he'll do a good job of coming up with just the right balance of questions and reflections. Let me introduce the rest of the panel. There's, to my left, Teen Shinoda Bolin, Jungian analyst, a psychiatrist at the University of California Medical Center in San Francisco, who's especially concerned with women's issues. As a Jungian analyst, she also really explores and probes the dark side of the human psyche. Jack Engler, a psychologist at Harvard Medical School,

[06:22]

was among the first to seek an integration between Buddhist psychology and Western psychology. Joanna Macy, a teacher, brings a Buddhist perspective to confronting nuclear and ecological peril. To my right, Margaret Brenman Gibson, a psychiatrist at Harvard, has been very involved as a longtime colleague of Eric Erickson with considering the nature of the danger to the planet. Her current project is an in-depth study of the weapons makers at Livermore Lab and other places, and I'm sure she'll be speaking about that a bit. Dan Brown, a psychologist at Harvard Medical School, who specializes among other things in treating people who are victims of extreme trauma and abuse, including political oppression and torture. Stephen Levine, well known as a

[07:26]

counselor to the dying, has given workshops and taught at medical schools and hospices and centers across the country. As you know, each day has a particular theme. The first day, today, the theme and focus is the nature of suffering. Tomorrow will be an end of suffering, and on the third day, on Wednesday, compassion action. So today we'll begin with reflections on suffering. Can you hear me? No? How's that? Oh, that's fine. Your Holiness, Dan in his beautiful and sobering remarks just

[08:28]

now reminded us of the condition of our world. He spoke of this being close, if not the final hour, and it's not only for the human race, but for our brother and sister species as well. So even here, as we sit comfortably in this beautiful room, we know, we are reminded that this is a time of great danger, requiring an immediate and massive response from us. In my own work around the world, I am finding that, in general, people, especially in the Western, industrialized, rich countries, have different kinds of response to the suffering of their world. Even good people, people who want to be compassionate. I find that we

[09:30]

on one level believe it. The facts are there. We know, we hear, we see it on TV. But I find also that on another level, we don't believe it because it seems too overwhelming, the facts too painful to face. So we tend to keep on with business as usual and we rarely speak of the suffering of our world with our family and our friends. I find that people sometimes take refuge in two kinds of hopes. One is the hope that things will work out because we have great technological skill. We have know-how. There will be what we call a

[10:33]

technical fix. On the other hand, there is the hope on the part of many that if we are peaceful and good in our hearts, that everything will be alright, that the world can become peaceful. I might call that a spiritual fix. There is this hope that there may be a refuge for us beyond earth. So my question this morning, Your Holiness, is whether hope can, these kinds of hopes, can keep us from facing what we need to face, whether hope can keep us from facing suffering and danger,

[11:34]

whether they give us false comfort and keep us from doing what we need to do. You know, I always consider the importance of keeping hope. Whether the thing which we are hoping to achieve or not, it is extremely important to keep hope. Hope is the basis of future or basis of success. And even I think temporary benefit, you remain with hope or optimistic attitude. Even you see,

[12:36]

it is very helpful to relieve, so to say, the anxieties. And then, of course, you see, as a human society or human community, it is bound to have, you see, some problem or some mischievous or what do you call it? Problem that malicious people have some malicious motivations and actions. And certain wrong things, wrong motivations, wrong actions bound to happen. Now, five billions of human beings, it is impossible all five billions

[13:37]

may become perfect. That is impossible. But then, you see, and also I think, when you explain one is positive side and negative side, I think from the Buddhist viewpoint, I think there may be another middle. Not so perfect, not so wrong, but something neutral. So, now you see, generally speaking, if we, the global situation generalize, I think, you see, I have some reasons to be hopeful. Say, you see, now, for example, I think one most important thing is peace, war and peace. Now, in early part of the century, and even in the 50s,

[14:38]

60s, you see, many people believe the ultimate decision must come through war. Now, I think that concept now today, of course, largely due to nuclear threat, nuclear holocaust. Now people realize, I think more and more people realizing the decision through war is something something totally unacceptable. And despite, you see, different ideology different system, even hostile attitude, you see, many people trying to avoid war and trying to, how to say, trying to achieve coexistence. And now people talk cooperation. I think this is. So, you see, peace or desire for peace

[15:40]

or force for peace, I think much increased. The last few years, you see, a number of occasion I met different people you see, some scientists, physicists who actually they themselves, you see, made great contribution for nuclear weapon. These very people very much, they showing deep concern about you see, war, isn't it? Many scientists genuinely, you see, concern, showing great concern about peace. Isn't it? And then young, bright, intelligent many, you see, young, intelligent, bright people, you see, showing great enthusiasm for world peace. So, you see, people, I think, now

[16:45]

growing number of people, you see, who how to say, who concern about peace. Then another, I think, another factor, I think, you see, due to technology, I think, communication, due to technology, now we have much, much, you see, better communication. So, as a result, and also, I think the economy or culture in many field, now the interrelation much improved. As a result, you see, the concept, you see, our nation and that nation or this continent, that continent I think somehow reducing. I found, I think it's a very positive concept or feeling in Europe, you see, in some young people, say I'm German

[17:45]

or Italian or French there are so much, how to say, interlinked. So, you see, they they stick to, you see, national, national. I think my explanation maybe, I think too long. Too long? No. We're here to hear you. Sometimes I tend to be too talkative. That's not good. So, in any way, in any way, now this is one thing. Then another thing now the, say, you see, conflict the totalitarian, too much rigidity system, basically that is against, you see, human nature.

[18:47]

Human nature is one's freedom. One's liberty. One's more space to move. That's human nature. Even animals want that. So, but in human history, even within this century some people believe human development can take place through strong, how to say, central authorization. Now, that already failed now. It doesn't work. Not outside threat. But it's simply, you see, not, how to say, not suitable for human being. The other hand is the human desire.

[19:50]

You see, freedom, liberty. As a result, it's a movement of, you see, democracy movement of, how to say, plurality. And now that is not only in Soviet bloc but even out, you see, different places. Say, like, you see, recent years, you see, in Philippines, now in Pakistan in Latin America, in many places things are going that direction. So, this shows, again, the basic human spirit gaining upper hand. So, this also is one positive indication. Hopeful sign. Then, say, you see, in early part of this century, or even I think I mean, till recently, you see, people simply, you see, simply, how to say, consume the world resources. You see, nobody

[20:55]

take, sort of, you see, taking care serious concern about planet. Now, today even some political party, you see, their ideology based on, you see, this, how to say, concept of this thing. Positive. I think the, due to I think the human knowledge, increasing human knowledge knowledge reach deeper level. So, as a result how to say, how to, long long term consequences. You see, it become clearer, clearer more deeper awareness about long term consequences. So, as a result, again, you see, more and more people now showing deep concern about natural environment, ecology, these things. That also very positive. Then, say, you see, material, materialism

[21:58]

and, I don't know spiritualism or, usually I call the external development and internal mental development. Now, these two things I think, in the previous century and, I mean, this century also, sometimes, you see, people felt the science and spiritual, this is something just, you see, two separate, how to say, path, separate discipline. I don't know. Two things. So, you see, people felt these two things never, never meet. Never come together. Now, today we find, I think, more and more people now realizing

[23:01]

there is no point to neglect about our inner feeling, our inner world. Now, for example, today here we are not talking about, you see, physics or something. We are talking about human mind. More discussion, more, how to say, more concern about, you see, internal feeling or experiences. So, this shows the modern, how to say, so much modern science and technology have reached very, very, how to say, very high stage, very high standard. Still, with human being involved in this field who, how to say, who created, you see, modern science and technology? Human being. What is the purpose of modern science and technology? Benefit of human being. Satisfaction of human being. So, human being is always the center. Humanity is always the center.

[24:04]

Sometimes, I think, we are too much excited about the matters, you see, the technology, these things. So, at that moment, quite nature, we forget about our humanity itself. Now, there is the external development itself now showing there is limitation. Through persuasion of that way, it is impossible to get 100% satisfaction. So, satisfaction must come within, not come from outside. So, the material development itself now showing us the limitation. So, we again now return our base concept. Who are? Who are me? Who are human being? Well, I think, that also, I think very positive. I think healthy development. So, I have some more reasons to be hopeful

[25:08]

rather than pessimistic. What do you think? What a problem? Yes. Now, these are the, I think, we can take this factor as a basis for our hope. Now, now hope is just a hope. Hope, you see, must lead action. Now, you see, human even, you see, prayer, although I myself, you see, pray, pray well, in my daily practice, there is a prayer also there. But, frankly speaking, I have not much belief in prayer.

[26:10]

You see, the action, action is more important than simply, you see, prayer. Isn't it? So, naturally, you see, action of course, there is something, something real, real method, a real... Something practical. ... ... ... Real effect can come through action, but not just through hope alone. Did you want to follow up? As people take action for whatever issue or problem they feel drawn to, whether that has to do with poisonous wastes in there, toxic waste, or whether it has to do

[27:13]

with the way we treat animals in our laboratories or on our farms, many different issues, what they find is they discover very disturbing information. They see that the suffering is more than they expected. Your Holiness, could you speak about spiritual or mental practices that can help us not turn away from that suffering and look right at it? Too many. ... [...] That's complicated. I think, I think first we have to make, you see, clear, or make a distinction.

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... ... ... I don't, I think like this way, say, our, the objective is less suffering. Less suffering. We do not want suffering. So therefore, you see, it is every right to lessen, to lessen suffering. Now here, you see, two ways. One simply, you see, avoid ... [...]

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