My son, his winter sport is wrestling and he went to Wrestlemania. And Wrestlemania got out later than we thought. And Matt, my assistant, is that a pro basketball player? Anyway, so I picked him up and I'm late. Let's see. I would like us to say our names. I think we skipped that last week, so if we could. Linda. Matt. Catherine. Carol. Denny. Mer. Gwen. Catherine. Courtney. Michael. Jeff. Siobhan. Carol. Jerome. Barbara. A-Robin. Judas. Blake. Michael. Asher. Justin.

[01:00]

Greg. Catherine. Yoel. Simon. Jim. Anna. Welcome. So, there are a number of things from last class that stayed with me that I've been turning and turning and it occurred to me today some way of kind of getting, expressing it, expressing what I've been trying to work with, and it has to do with the koan, the story about the on the ship who comes to buy the mushrooms and words and phrases and what are words and what are phrases. I felt like we looked at it last time and it was a little bit like scratching our heads and sort of, huh, and I feel like that particular story, teaching story, and then the poem that

[02:07]

follows, Shwedo's poem about one, two, three, four, five, and the moon into the ocean, and I just thought, I didn't want to skip over it. So, that's one thing I wanted to start with tonight and then we'll just see how that goes and then back to the text, unless there's other things that you want to, I know that Danny, we were talking last time about, you know, the sort of shadow side, I guess you would say, of everything in its place, and I didn't know if we should go into that further or if that settled so we could take that up again, too, or now. And also, Yuan, a couple weeks ago, had mentioned something which, after class, which I didn't bring up because we had the plays, but it had to do with the insistence on the tenzo

[03:09]

doing everything his or herself, and Yuan was bringing up, well, isn't that sort of like maybe a little bit greedy, like getting to do all the things and having to be there and a little ego-centric, so it was another kind of way to look at it that was coming up for him, so those are a couple things that were hanging that we haven't talked about with everyone. So, shall we talk a little bit first or shall I go ahead with this thing that I'm not sure how it's going to work? Whatever you want to do. Whatever I want to do. What's in the bundle? What, what? What's in the bundle? What's in the bundle? Okay, well, why don't I try this? So, let's see, I'll make some space here. Do you mind if I?

[04:10]

No, no. Okay. Okay, so if you look on your packet, look in your, does everyone have a cup? I left mine at home, yeah. I've got one extra. Can somebody in the back maybe put the damper down a little bit more on the fireplace? Not all the way. Can you? Well, it makes it easier for people who are burning out. Oh, good, because I'm freezing. We've got people who are freezing and people who are too hot, so please move around the room accordingly. I gave just one extra here. There's also this book. Oh, that's okay. I don't have one. That's fine. Or you can share or just listen or whatever you'd like.

[05:14]

It is available if anyone wants it. Which side are we on? Okay, so we are looking on page 41, and it's at the bottom, or at the middle and the bottom, but it has to do with Vitenzo, who came to buy the mushrooms and was very clear about he hadn't permission to stay out overnight, and he left after lunch. He was going back. You all remember that story, yes? And Dogen's question near the bottom. Venerable Tenzo, in your advanced years, why do you not wholeheartedly engage the way, which is ben-do, through zazen, or penetrate the words and stories, and those are the koans,

[06:15]

wa-to, or koans, of the ancient masters, instead of troubling yourself by being Tenzo and just working? What is that good for? And Tenzo laughed loudly and said, oh, good fellow from a foreign country, you have not yet understood wholeheartedly engaging in the way, which is ben-do, and you do not yet know what words and phrases are. So at this point, there's a shift from why aren't you studying the koans, the stories, the words and stories of the ancient masters, or of the old Zen masters, and then that gets switched to he doesn't say and you do not yet know what the words and stories of the old Zen masters are, but it's a different word that he uses there, and it's translated here as words and phrases. Now, I looked up in the other translations, by the way, we're not going to have, did I tell you

[07:16]

we're not going to have that booklet of comparing all the different ones? I don't know. It got to be too big a project to do for the class. So in another translation that you don't have, which is in manuscript form, it's from the, in fact, I'm actually not supposed to read it, because I have the manuscript and it's not out yet, but it's a book that's coming out called Nothing Hidden by Shouhaku Okamura and Dan Layton were involved in this, but there's a lot of different teachers who've written articles about the Tenzo Kyokun. It's supposed to come out in November, but I haven't seen it yet. So I'm going to skip that one. It's another translation. But in Moon in the Dew Drop, he asks to the Tenzo, why don't you concentrate on Zazen practice and on the study of the ancient masters' words? And then the Tenzo says, you do not yet understand practice or know the meaning of the words

[08:18]

of the ancient masters. So that's a little different translation. And then Uchiyama Roshi's In Refining Your Life has it, why do you not spend your time practicing Zazen or working on the koans of former teachers? And the Tenzo remarks after laughing loudly and so forth, dot, dot, dot, you do not yet understand what practice is all about, nor do you know the meaning of characters. So this word, the word in Japanese that's used for the words and phrases or just the words or characters, as Uchiyama Roshi says, is this word monji. And I looked up monji, and where is it? I, so, I mean, this is my calligraphy here. It's mon, the first part, mon means letter or writing.

[09:23]

I did, I practiced it a number of times. And ji is characters, like in kanji, you know, the Chinese, when you write in Chinese, they're called kanji, right? It's different than kanji, zai, bousatsu. So the monji, mon is letters or writing, and the ji is like, for characters, and together they mean the character, a letter, or writing. When you put them together, monji is character, letters, or writing. It's a little different than words and phrases, but if you think about, oh, here's this one for a second. And this is koan, which is, ko is public, and an is a case. Ko, public, an, case. So those are different. So one is actual letters, writing, character, letter, writing. Now, I'm taking this calligraphy class, and that's why this occurred to me. And I had the calligraphy class on Tuesdays, and it occurred to me that for a Chinese or

[10:31]

a Japanese person to say what's translated as words, when they mean characters, there's a different valence there, actually, and I just wanted to get at it, so I brought my calligraphy stuff to them. Now, I'm a very new calligrapher, so don't, you know, mistake that, but I thought I would just, let's see, want to protect the rug and the furniture, so this is... This is all my practice stuff.

[11:33]

So, the tenzo says, you have not yet understood wholeheartedly engaging in the way, and you do not yet know what words and phrases mean, or you don't know what monji means, what characters and letters are. Hearing this, I suddenly felt ashamed and stunned. Now, that's a really strong sentence, I was ashamed and stunned, like, just stopped in his tracks. What are words and phrases? Then he asks, what is wholeheartedly engaging in the way? The tenzo says, if you do not stumble over this question, you are really a true person. And the other translations are, just to do this with you, how cheesy is that?

[12:43]

In the Moon in the Dew Drop, Dogen says, what are words, what is practice? Rather than wholeheartedly engaging in the way, just what is practice? And the tenzo says, if you penetrate this question, how can you fail to become a person of understanding? That's the true person, or person of the way. If you penetrate this question, the question is, what are words? What is practice? In that note from Uchiyama, it says, if you basically throw your whole self into this question as the most important thing, that is, well, let me just read that. This is the one where Judas had scratched her head and said about Zen, you know, this Zen stuff. If you understand precisely what you're asking to be the most vital problem concerning the

[13:48]

Buddhadharma, then that in itself is understanding characters. That is practice. So if you take up a question like this, like, what is practice? Or what is monji? What are words? What are characters? If you take this up in a full way, not just, what's characters? This is fully engaging the way, fully engaging your life, and these phenomenal things like, well, in the Tenzo's case, rice and water and ladles, and they're using this monji or characters to kind of get at it. What are words? And you say, okay, if you really ask about what is words and what are practice, you'll penetrate there. So if you penetrate this question, how can you fail to become a person of understanding?

[14:49]

So the thing about words, all words or characters that stand, that are, well, both words and characters are these marks, you know, on paper or whatever, that when you look at them, you have a concept about what that's pointing to, right? If you didn't understand it, it would, if you didn't understand what a character meant when you looked at it, it would just be black and white, right? But each word in English for us or other languages that we speak or some characters that we might know are phenomenal, they are part of just the phenomenal world. But what is the phenomenal world? This is like form and emptiness, you know, what is form? And if you understand what form is, it completely encompasses everything.

[15:59]

If you penetrate one thing, you penetrate all things, which is the work of the Tenzo, right? If you completely cut the carrots, if you completely wash the rice, not thinking about or elaborating, as Rev's been saying, I don't like washing the rice, I don't like white rice, we should be having brown rice more often, they always make me wash the rice. My mother used to, I mean, all that. If you're just washing the rice, you penetrate one thing, you penetrate everything. So, I wanted to try and demonstrate this. So you can say that about all sorts of, like all work? All everything. Or everything? Yes. That's right, you can say it about everything.

[17:07]

That if you're just there with your work, and not somewhere else. Oh, it's like a log. That's a weight, a weight for the paper, and it's, yes, in the shape of an acorn, an oak with little acorns on it. Okay, let's see. So, my teacher was this wonderful woman who used to teach in elementary school, so she's teaching calligraphy like she teaches little kids, you know? Which is perfect for me, because, oh, I should probably not wear this. So, when you, um, do some of you practice calligraphy?

[18:18]

Yes? I haven't yet. You haven't passed? I haven't passed yet. So, let's see. Okay. So, one of the things she told me when we first started is that traditionally in Japan, if you learn calligraphy, you start with, um, this is not ground ink, this is bottled sumi ink. But, um, I use it for, when I go to class we grind the ink. So, um, so when you first start taking calligraphy lessons, you start, and for the first three years you do ichi, which is one, which is just one. Just ichi. And she's, and I was game, you know? It's like, if this is how you teach calligraphy, I'm willing.

[19:20]

I figured, I told her I had, I was 52, I think, or 50, let's see, it was last, 52 when I started, and I figured I had maybe 20 years if I'm lucky to, um, you know, study calligraphy. And if you start out the first three years with ichi, then, okay, you know, that's okay with me. I was willing. But she didn't go that way. We did the other different strokes, not just one. But, um, but ichi, you know, this, ichi, this one stroke includes, she has a calligraphy on her wall that she did, which is, the meaning of it is one, one thing penetrates all things, and the one, which is this, is big, very big, like, across the page, and then the other thing. So you look at it, I mean, as an art piece, and it's got this swath of black, thick,

[20:28]

and then these other squiggly things, you know, that you can barely read. I can barely read. But, um, you know, you look at that one, and you, you feel the mind of that person. You know, that's why calligraphy is so marvelous. And everything is like that. Everything is like that. So I'll do ichi. This is not quite the right, not that I'll do ichi. Ichi, ichi will appear. And also with calligraphy, the way she does it, we sit in seiza, and you, first we do breathing exercises, and then when your mind is ready, then you express yourself. You do the character, right? Ichi.

[21:37]

I'll try this other, I got this, um... Linda? Yes? Is your arm always in a kind of 90 degrees to the brush? Oh, yeah? So you always do it directly? Yes, up and down. You keep the brush, um, vertical. Does anybody have any water? Do you get some? There's some, there's a little cup right there. Oh. I've got some. But she's bringing it in. I'm trying to get some water. I'll drink your water. Well, I'm... She thought maybe you needed drinking. Did she go away? She's gone. Oh, thank you. Here, Simon, you can continue drinking your water. Thank you. Okay. Oh, what a lovely dish.

[22:44]

I found this, um, brush in China in this little tiny shop. Now, I don't know if you've ever looked at brushes, but they're very expensive, they can be really, really expensive. And this one cost $2.50. Wow. And it was in a dusty old case in this little tiny shop. But it, um, what we found is that, now I wouldn't have known this a year ago, but it doesn't have a lot of spring. It, I don't know what the, what the hair is, but, so it, it's not as responsive. That's why it was in a dusty old bin for $2.50. But it's, anyway. It's pretty. It's, yeah, it's pretty. It's a story. Okay, so that's one, now I'm going to do two. That's two.

[23:50]

It doesn't have the bounce, yeah. This one is very bouncy. And three. Could you pull the paper up a little bit? Yeah, thank you. So, uh, what are words? What are words? What are monji? And what I realized, um,

[24:52]

every, and nothing, nothing, that's, that's the poem, you know, um, where it says a thing. So the poem that comes after that, right? So then later on, you know, he visits, the Tenzo comes to visit him, right? Um, when he's at Tentong Monastery, and they bring up the issue we mentioned on the ship about concerning words and phrases and wholehearted engagement in the way. The Tenzo said, people who study words and phrases should know the significance of words and phrases. The significance of them. People dedicated to wholehearted practice need to affirm the significance of engaging the way. What are words and phrases? One, two, three, four, five. What is wholeheartedly engaging the way?

[25:56]

In the whole world, it is never hidden. And other translations are, um, see, I marked all these, oh, actually, I wrote them all out. Where did that notebook go? Here it is. In Moon and the Dew Drop, when I referred to the discussion of words and practice which had taken place on the ship, the Tenzo said, to study words, you must know the origin of words. To endeavor in practice, you must know the origin of practice. What are words? One, two, three, four, five. What is practice? Nothing in the entire universe is hidden. So, um, in this calligraphy, or in anything else you do, but in the calligraphy, there's nothing hidden, right? I was going to ask if somebody wanted to come up and do Iti. You know, it's because your whole entire,

[26:58]

there is everything that you are and everything that the phenomena brings, like the intimacy between the brush and the ink and this kind of paper and the lighting and the fact that there's a crowd watching or not, this is all intimately non-separated, you know? There isn't such a thing as as this Iti without this particular brush, this ink, this paper, and if you change any of those things, it's a whole other thing. So, nothing is hidden, meaning all those relationships, all that dependently co-arisen-ness is exposed, you know? It's not hidden. There's nothing hidden. We think that we can hide, you know, from each other and from ourselves, but actually, we're always right out there who we are.

[28:00]

Even our attempts to hide is right out there, showing, do you know what I mean? So, it's all what is the significance of words? What is the significance? And, of course, everything's there. There's nothing hidden in the entire universe. Nothing is hidden. Would anyone like to come up and try Iti? Now, let's see. I think we can maybe make the paper a little more, um... Where did it begin? Oh, here it is. There you go. This should probably be on this side for you. Are you right-handed?

[29:01]

Uh-huh. So, nothing in the world is hidden. How many breaths do we take? As many as you need. Is your arm straight? Um, arm is straight, and it's good to hold the paper with the other down by you just to kind of steady it. Do you want to try number two and number three? Okay. Do I need to get more in? Uh, you can put a little more in. Okay.

[30:03]

They're a little different. Mine are much thinner. Let's see. Make sure the paper is up into the... Oh, my God! Give me your bread. Careful about this rug, folks. I do feel sorry. That's nice. Okay. That's it. Thank you very much.

[31:10]

Can you hold it up? Yeah, it's pretty novice. Yes, all these are novice, but they aren't novice. It's just beginner's mind, you know. So, we can watch as we try it. I mean, this is... Yes, of course. We can see how we immediately... Comparing mine kicks in, right? I mean, the teacher sits next to me and we start doing this and I'm looking and I'm thinking, oh, she handles that brush so beautifully. Oh, look at that. Oh, and then I look at mine and I think, oh, anyway, right? But the time, this one time, she actually gave me this different kind of paper. It was different. And the way the ink sunk into the paper, it had this whole different feeling. So when I put the brush on, it just, there was something different about the drag, you know. And I just, I forgot about her, I forgot about...

[32:14]

And I just was right there enjoying the feel of the ink on the paper and the... And like a kid, actually, it was like that comparative mind just shut up for a while and I just was doing it. And I got to the end and she didn't exactly clap, but it was like, okay, you know, finally. So, but I knew that it was my mind that was the hindrance. It wasn't necessarily the technique or any of these other things. It had to do with, and this is, it had to do with comparing mind and how painful it is, right? And that's the same with arts, all the arts, right? And anything else we do. Shopping, baking, talking in class, whatever it is, it's like, what are words, you know? If you just completely throw yourself in, you penetrate right there.

[33:18]

Would anyone else like to try? We can do other things, too. You can do a sumi circle if you want. Here, let me do this. You know, just one of those circles. Oh, I like that. That's really hard. Thanks, Danny. This march reminds me of, after the roll downs, it just reminds me of like media hits. Oh, yeah. Now, see, that's, that's... Reifying it. Are you reifying it? I'm reifying it. No, no. Well, it may be reifying it, but for me, it's like, this is your world. You see those marks, and you think, roll down. Maybe you could just learn to be Tenkin, and you, bop, bop, bop, is kind of in your body, and you see that, and that's what comes up.

[34:20]

That's like a whole world. You know, it's not necessarily, it doesn't come from that necessarily. It's, it's who you are, and that's very intimate. That's very intimate. And it's the same with everything, this relationship with things. Okay. That one's kind of moldy. It's... It's made with soot. Oh, we should put the ink on this side for you, or whatever. Whatever you want. Okay. Thank you.

[35:26]

Would you like that? We can keep doing this until we run out of paper, if you want to. So, while we're doing this, I just wanted to go on to this poem. Let us think about this poem, or meditate on this poem for minutes. Have you done the circle? Have you done that before? Mm-hmm. That's one of the things... Is it going to start on my left? How would you do that? You can do it top and around. You could do it bottom and around. Yeah. What does the circle mean? The sumi circle. And so, it's... What does it mean to you? Just when you see it. It's a cycle, kind of. It keeps going.

[36:27]

Yeah. Completion, the entire universe. So, they're often... Well, you know Suzuki Roshi's Enso? It's kind of the logo of Zen Center now. If you look in books of calligraphy of Zen masters, you'll often see their Enso. You know, they'll be... And sometimes they're all squiggly. You know, there isn't... And you see their mind right there. That's the thing. This is their mind. They were completely there. And you feel who they were, which is how it is with handwriting and mon-ji. Do you do it both ways, or... You can do it either way. It's not too hard, so... And also that left hand... This is one thing, is to do things with two hands. So to have that left hand kind of steadying you,

[37:29]

steadying the paper at the bottom there. And all... Just... Yeah. I just wanted to mention, let's see if the group can just watch without any comment, either sound effect or anything. Just let it be. Just let it be. Okay? Let's see how that is. Thank you. And show it to everyone. A circle? Yeah, I can. Actually, if we cut these pages in half, we could get a few more people. Does it cut?

[38:32]

Yeah. So Linda, just before you do this, I just wanted to read this. One character, three characters, five and seven characters. Having thoroughly investigated the ten thousand things, none have any foundation. At midnight, the white moon sets into the dark ocean. When searching for the black dragon's pearl, you will find they are numerous. So, this beginning part, one character, three characters, five, seven, these characters, this is the phenomenal world. One, two, three, four, five.

[39:33]

That's his answer. What are words and phrases? One, two, three, four, five. That's just... The tensor just... What are words and phrases? You know, just whatever he came up with. But those very things that seemed like it could have been anything. He said one, two, three, four, five. It could have been six, seven, eight, nine, ten. It could have been chicken, cows, ducks, geese. It could have been anything. But it was one, two, three, four, five. And the entire universe came down to those very words. One, two, three, four, five. Everything's there. What is wholeheartedly engaging in the way? In the whole world it is never hidden. Living like that, you know, living like that is

[40:33]

how I want to live. So, one character, three characters, five and seven, having thoroughly investigated the ten thousand things, none have any foundation or there's nothing you can rely on, right? Because it's always changing in permanence. There's nothing... If you investigate all this stuff, you see it's ungraspable. You can't hold on to it. At midnight, so in the middle of the night, if you picture this as visual, at midnight, the white moon, picture the white moon setting into the ocean. When searching for the black dragon's pearl, you'll find there are numerous. The black dragon, supposedly there's a black dragon that carries a pearl or a jewel under her, I think it's a her, under her chin. And that jewel

[41:37]

is the jewel of the truth, you know. And you have to get it. You have to wrest it away from that black dragon. But what they're saying is... Well, there's another translation I actually like even better. When searching for the black dragon's pearl, you'll find it's numerous or you'll find it's everywhere. It's... The black dragon's pearl, the pearl of truth, is in all phenomena, form and emptiness. Form is not different than emptiness. So, taking care of form, you... You understand emptiness. You can understand emptiness. So we take care of form. Emptiness is form. And form is form. And emptiness is emptiness, which is why each one of these... Each one of these is form is form. And you can read, you can tell somebody's calligraphy, that's their calligraphy, is not just

[42:39]

undifferentiated. It could be anybody. You actually can tell if you know calligraphy. That's so-and-so's calligraphy, right? That's so-and-so's painting. Form is form. What is form? We'll see right now. So, I think this bowl might be getting stained. Oh. No, the bowl has that mark in it already. Oh, good. I think it should probably come out of that. You think the clay will... It'll seep in? It's glazed. Is it glazed? It is. Oh, good. Let's give it to General Labor. The poem is pretty close to case 76. Yeah. That's what's so interesting. It's amazing. Those of us who are in the koan class

[43:40]

on Monday night, there's... Who isn't in that koan class? Isn't? Is not. Yeah. So, one of the lines, the kind of capping line, is midnight. Excuse me. The moon sets. Midnight. Penetrating the city. Or going through the marketplace. Or going through the marketplace. So, this is the same line, I feel. Midnight. What? He said that as he was leaving when he was in Zindo. He said, I'm going shopping. That's what we call a joke. He said, I'm going shopping. Yeah, it was a joke. Actually, it's revealing because the marketplace is empty. it's not a joke, but I was quite shocked when he said that. It's interesting, too, because the word in, if you penetrate this question. Yes. In one of the translations. Yes. Yeah. So,

[44:41]

are we penetrating the city the same way we're penetrating the question? Well, that's, yeah, well, that's, I feel like it's pointing that way. Penetrating one thing, penetrating the city. The city is the phenomenal world, right? The world of the myriad forms. And what is form? Emptiness. And form. And if you take up that question completely, that will be your penetration right there. Let's let Linda do, and then, Kathy, be sure to keep your, include your left side. Thank you.

[45:58]

Be sure and show it. Yes, Kathy? Um, now I don't know exactly where it was, right when you were talking about the characters being the phenomenal world, Yes. and the counting one, two, three, four, five continue, or being the phenomenal, the whole world of phenomenal. And when you were first expressing that, it suddenly brought me back to the way Dogen first asked the question, and I really loved it because it tied this whole thing about words and phrases back to the situation of the Tenzo who will not let someone else do the job. You know, because the question Dogen says is, venerable Tenzo, why do you not wholeheartedly engage the way through Zazen or penetrate the words and stories of the ancient answers instead of troubling

[46:59]

yourself by being Tenzo and just working? And so, all of a sudden, it brought it back to just working is wholeheartedly engaging the way and penetrating the words and phrases. That's right. Yeah, and it just came up like that. And that's why the Tenzo laughed so loudly. Yeah, exactly. Because all these translations, he laughed, he got such a big kick out of it because that's exactly what he's doing. And he's saying, why don't you? What are you fooling around with being a Tenzo for? Why don't you penetrate the way and do Zazen? Okay, what is ... You know, in the Middle Ages, they didn't sign their paintings, right? Not in Japan. I don't know what they did in Japan, but like the early Many early paintings are not signed, right?

[48:00]

And works of art are not signed there. this thing about ... Well, is somebody coming? There's some confusion. I thought Carol was next. I thought you were next. I thought you were next. I was going to say, in, there's a tradition of stamping. So, I'm going to stamp this. This says my name in old style characters in the old script. What's the second part of your name? G Ko A Jun G Ko A Jun It means G,

[49:05]

in this case, G Ko is, G is compassion and Ko is light. So, it's being chord. is like a river going along in the banks, following along, that's the image. So, it's being translated as a chord. So, when you say, in this case, how do you know when you're reading these characters, which case, you know, like, yeah, well, in this case, it must mean, yeah. Well, sometimes, even Japanese people don't know that, like, they'll say, you know, maybe you've seen, they'll say, G, something, and they say, G, and then they go, you know, and then they, because there's a lot of characters that have the sound

[50:05]

G, just like, in English, there's a lot of, well, there's often the similar sounds, right, but, yeah. So, you could say, Jiko, and it could mean something else, like, the Jiko carries the incense, that means incense carrier, it doesn't mean light of compassion, I think the coal might, no, I don't even think the coal is light, maybe it's a light carrier. And they'll do that, they'll say, they'll say, and Chinese people too, if they don't know what character, then they'll kind of do it, you know, and then, oh, oh, that one, you know. Do you always stamp it down there? She's literally doing it. This particular teacher makes me, at the end of class, I have to do a final thing, and then stamp it. Does everyone

[51:07]

have a stamp? Does everyone have a stamp, did you say? No. Oh, it's just me, it's just one-on-one. Okay. Yeah, yeah. They call it a chop, right? A chop, yeah. That's my brother's name. Now, what's interesting is that we say that the, what our characters, what our monji, and they are what? They are the entire, nothing's hidden, it's the entire, your entire mind, the entire bod, this ink, you know, is made of soot, out of trees, the paper, the whole entire world comes down to this ichi, right? And then, well, how can you stamp something with your name on it? I mean, isn't that sort of silly? But that's this form is form. You know, so there is form is emptiness. Doing this is the entire or doing anything. but there's also stamp. So,

[52:10]

this is, this is, our life is, it's not, we don't want to get caught in either way, like stamping all over the place, right? Which is a kind of arrogance. It's like marking your territory like a dog or something. This is mine, this is mine, this is mine. But you know how we do that sometimes, you know, this is, we actually do mark our territory. I like it this way, you guys are doing it right, you know, the dishes should be done this way. That's a kind of, but there are times when it's appropriate to do your stamp. The stamp is on your page. Oh. How come all these questions have nothing to do, often times your name is written as Chico Linderrud?

[53:11]

Yes. But in Rev's book he refers to you as Agent Linderrud. Is there a reason why you use the first name rather than the second name at different times? After Dharma Transmission that second name is sometimes used. So, I think, yeah, I was surprised he used it too. And he uses always Tenshin. Yeah, he doesn't say Zenki, he says Tenshin. yeah, somehow he chose that one to use. Linda, is it, when we were studying this, that it was my understanding that the first part of the name that your teacher gives you is kind of addressing who they see you are then, and that the second part is where they see you becoming. Yes, that's one, when you're creating the names for people for Layard Nation, the first part of the name, the first two

[54:11]

characters are often some expression of how you understand the person right then manifesting, how they manifest their life right now. And then the second part is how you see them completing or developing or fully maturing into them, into their individuating maybe, so there's a kind of, not exactly Tenshin, but a relationship between the first characters and the second two characters. Can I ask you about this? Yes? Can I make it more wet? How do I make it more wet? Do I put the ink and then add water? Oh. Well, let's see. I think, you could pour, you think it's too, well I'm not sure, I don't want to, it's probably, it's probably the right consistency because it comes out of a bottle, so you don't have to add unless it's too thick. Okay, but I'm, to the brush do you use the water or you just I don't think you have to now,

[55:11]

you can just go right into the ink. Okay, that's what I wanted to know. right into the ink. You want it closer? No, I just want it straight. You could keep talking. I could keep talking, that's true. Can you wipe it away? Can you you Now,

[56:19]

one thing about our practice, you know, is it's a very big body practice, meaning the, it doesn't matter how much, how many words you've got, to describe something, or to, it has to be conveyed and expressed through your body, right? So, we have all these chances, I guess, to practice with the body. Our orioke practice, kitchen practice, all the work practices, our big body practices, as well as, you know, we need all parts of us, but bringing the body there, and a lot of these, just in the zendo itself, of course, a lot of these things are taught

[57:19]

through watching, you know, through seeing somebody else, even though the eyes are cast down, you actually pick up on how people are moving in the zendo, or doing something by watching, and then you try it yourself, right? So, that, I was just, that kind of watching, and the comparative mind watching, I feel are actually two different modes, you might say. The comparative mind watching is getting very caught up in performance, and a kind of self-denigrating thing, and criticism, and a lot of judgment, but the other kind of watching is just kind of like a

[58:21]

baby learns to do something, I don't think those babies learn to walk by watching, they've learned, just their body, it's unstoppable, you know, wanting to move in that way as they develop it, but watching other things that kids pick up on, they're not comparing and thinking, I'm not doing it right, or, you know, like language actually, just copying, they're just copying, and they're paying very close attention. I think, I just wanted the apprenticeship, or mentoring someone, or having someone apprentice to you, or taking a calligraphy class, a lot of it is, the other calligraphy class I took before going with her was with Kaz Tanahashi, Tanahashi-san, and he

[59:21]

had us look at characters that were done by old masters, he had them xeroxed and blown up, and then we copied them over and over and over and over, we copied exactly, but of course it wasn't looking like that, but then he would make little tiny hints like the horizontals rise up to the right, just slightly, and then you'd look and, ah, because in my mind, I thought horizontal is horizontal, straight like a table, but horizontal was tipped up, you know, it wasn't just straight, it was just a little, but I didn't see it, why, because I was carrying in my mind the idea of what horizontal was, I really wasn't looking, I really wasn't down with the paper, I was, and this is the same with any kind of drawing, those of you

[60:21]

who draw, you have an idea of what it looks like, and you try to draw the table or the bookcase or whatever you're drawing according to your idea, rather than actually what the shapes are and how the light's hitting it. That's why they have us draw upside down. Upside down or with your left hand? Yeah. Yeah. With your eyes closed. Would you be up to doing another one, just so we could try to watch? Um, yeah, I could. I also noticed that the way you hold your brush seems sort of important to how the strokes

[61:22]

are and the pressure that you put on everything. It's a world, you know. It's a world. Like watching my teacher, you know, she'll do these things, and the brush is just sailing and lifting and swooping and down and it's dancing. It's a dance, right? Just like any craft is a dance. But, but life is a dance that way, you know? So, let's see, what character can I do? Oh. How to move? Wow.

[62:35]

That's a critical mind just... I saw it. Yeah, I was going to ask, where did you get your critical mind and what were you looking at when you were thinking about your critical mind? What parts of that specifically? What part of the character? Well, the way this is touching and the angle this should come down and then the hook is, you know, just... So, Linda, when you were saying that infants, you know, I'm watching my little infant, my little granddaughter. So, where does or when does critical mind, you know, when you were saying they just copy and I thought, yeah, that's really right, we do, but when does it shift? At what age? Yeah. Well, it's, there is a sense of self even, you know, at birth, there's a sense of self and self clinging is there,

[63:50]

but, let's see, what age does it, where they start being self-conscious in that way? Do you say that they have a self because of your Buddhist training? Yes. Yeah, yeah. I don't know, those of you, you know, who know kids, I mean, little kids, that's why they're so great, right? They're just socially, they're not doing that thing that we all do, the defenses, and they're just kind of right up there, yes. Is it possible that it's different in different people's development? Like, when that happens? Oh, I have a feeling it's hard-wired pretty much, but maybe to some, maybe there's some variation according to, you know, circumstances. I have a baby brother and I was talking to his mother today and she said that at a certain

[64:51]

point, like, when a baby's really pretty young still, it thinks that it's still a part of, actually, I don't know if this is relevant but I'm going to say it anyways, is not different from its mother, like psychologically it's the same being, and then there's a point where it realizes that they are different, not the same being, and I was kind of wondering how one would look at that, I guess, from like a Buddhist type of perspective or something, do you know what I mean? Do you kind of understand what my question is maybe? Yeah, something like a Buddhist say, like, in response to all the medical, or not medical like, you know, all this information we're getting about our, how we think and how we think about our life. Yeah, well the thing about the, oh,

[65:51]

good, let's see if we'll use back, the, that point where the separation anxiety, you know, for the kid, for the child, is, you know, there are babies, you know, where you start out, you can give them to anybody, you know, they just will go with anybody, and I don't know, and then you can't pass them around anymore because they want the ones that they're, you know, and the smell is different, um, but for a while there it doesn't matter, they do, they can recognize their, usually the mother, the primary, but they'll go with others, but at a certain point, uh-uh, nothing else will do. Unless you go a lot. Unless you're very familiar, like grandmas. Yeah. Or around here. But I think it's, yeah, in terms of how that works, how that's

[66:52]

biologically, oh, let's be quiet here. I don't want to disturb you. go ahead, I'll wait. Would you like me to continue talking while you do it? Yes, please continue. Okay. Um, there may be, evolutionarily, you know, how all those things kick in, and when they do, um, I don't, what, what? No, I'm sorry. What is, I better just do it. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. No, I wanted to know why you're laughing. I thought there was a joke happening. No, it's just, um, I'm, it's hard to explain, it wasn't a joke. It wasn't a joke, okay. Okay. Now I'm

[67:52]

tense. I understand. What's that character called again? Ichi. Ichi. I'm going to try again. What? I can see how you can do this for a long time. Three years. I have 20 years. So there is actually a form for that, right?

[68:53]

You know, like when you're first doing it, you look at the character and it's doing a certain thing, right? Yes. Go ahead, Judith, I think you're about to make a wonderful point. So at the beginning, say it again, well, there's a form, there's a character. Yes. And so you practice that character, right? Yes, yes, yes. So it must be

[69:59]

very difficult to not have critical mind as you're expressing it, not to say, oh, that's, you know, like when you were, oh, it should be a little, uh, uh, uh, you know. I didn't feel like I was having a critical mind when I was doing it, but then people started saying, do this, do that. Well, there's a process, right? I mean, we start off by trying to copy something that's, and try and make it perfect. And we're like, and it's funny because at the beginning when we start out, it's like we can't do it perfectly. And then, then maybe the next stage is we get closer and closer to whatever is ideal. And then we have to let go of what's ... I'm sorry about that.

[71:38]

So, so, Daniel, you were right in the middle of saying something, so we have to let you. We try, we start out, we try to make it perfect, First, I'm going to grasp the ideal. And then, hopefully, if we want to get anywhere, we have to look at it let go of the ideal. Yes, and I think, you know, it's the same in Zazen, you know, we come, we have some ideal in mind of what the posture is, what we're supposed to look like, and we do our best, but at a certain point we just are who we are, you know, we have to let go of the ideal of what it's supposed to look like and just completely be ourselves in that posture, and nobody knows what that is, that there's no formula for what that is, that each person is completely themselves, and with calligraphy, you know, you start out doing this, this is, what do they call it, not box, anyway, it's this formal style, but then there's like grass style, which

[72:43]

is like cursive, right, where it's just, and she was showing me some, and there, they just look like long squiggles with, it's not even a character, she was showing me the character in the box next to the grass style, and to me they were like, but if you know calligraphy, you can, in that squiggly boo, you can, you, you know what it is they leap to and left out, just like we can read cursive, you know, you can read somebody's scribbles that's, that a kid couldn't read, you know, they can't read cursive, they can just read, what is it called, capitals, you know, they can just read, and then cursive finally, and then, you know, difficult handwriting, so that wasn't the point I was trying to make, the point I was trying to make was, oh, once you master the form, meaning the kind of straight

[73:43]

old thing, then, then you're freed up to use it at will, your treasure store will open up itself and you will use it at will, so, but if you, like an improvisational musician, right, you have to learn the scales and the stuff very, very well to be able to go and just have that music just express, otherwise it's, it doesn't work, right, so music and art and, but not just those things, those are all just these, those are just expressions of life, but our own life is like that too, you don't have to be a musician or an artist, you can cook, you know, you can cook for the monks, you can clean dishes, you can clean your room, you can go for walks, you can do anything. So what is he saying in this as pertains to

[74:49]

the kitchen? Well, you mean this, one, two, three, four, five? Right. I feel like the one, two, three, four, five is each one of those things that he goes through so carefully, you look at the stores, you plan the menus, you post the menus, you hand, you put the high things in the high things, the low things in the low, you handle the ladles, you put on your okesa and do nine bows towards the monks hall, you go to zazen when the Han goes, you know, each one of those things is, each one of those things is completely this full expression, and I think it's a corrective because our usual, just like he said to the Tenzo, why don't you sit zazen and why aren't you studying koans, why are you out here buying mushrooms and hurrying back, it's just a bunch of work. So this is, the Tenzo Kyokan is, it was to the monks he was

[75:56]

practicing this, so I feel like it's a corrective to our tendency to separate out, you know, this is the menial stuff and this is the practice stuff and to have it all categorized, and he drops the categories and it's just one, taking care of one thing penetrates all. Yes, Michael? I'm struck with how much Zen seems to fall under an umbrella of intimacy, just be intimate with this moment, just like when we were infants, we were so intimate with that mother force that we were mother, you know, and how now we have learned all these skills and our task here, not just in practice period but in day-to-day life, is to unlearn all that so we can get intimate like we were as youngsters or with the kitchen equipment or whatever, day-to-day, yet still have the skills that got us there. Yes, but it's

[77:02]

more. What are you looking for? The first one. The first one I did? I don't know where it went. It's on the table. Just to, it makes me think of the ability to have an intimacy, starts, I'm thinking in my mind, a baby's born and if the baby is put on the mother's skin, skin-to-skin, within two to three hours the baby has the ability to recognize the mother's smell or the father's smell, whoever, the baby's skin-to-skin, which is remarkable. You think about how early that starts, or is there, and who knows, maybe it's there before then. And they'll actually crawl to the breast without any help. Right. Men do that too. Danny, you were saying something right before Carol. That, well, psychodynamic psychology has a lot to say about these things. And I, and I would just say that I think

[78:32]

its contribution here, and sometimes, I know it's not true, but sometimes it seems like Buddhism, or our approach to Buddhism, doesn't include the shadow. And it does, obviously. I'm just saying sometimes it seems like we can forget it, and try to ignore it, and try and not remember. It's like what they would say, I guess the best way to explain it, is to say that we are trying to get back to that, but unless we deal with death, we'll never get there. And all of the pain and suffering, we'll never get there. But then we're not intimate if we don't, if we don't, I, I, that's beautiful, but I guess what I added to that, or I tried to add was how it's about intimacy, the closeness that we have with, with our moments. And our moments include, I would think, at least in my case, you know, the dark.

[79:37]

I want to wait till you're done, then I want to say something. Linda, we have to go. It's nine, I know. This is the last one. Oh, the laughing one. Thank you all very much. It is nine o'clock, and I just wanted to say this one thing about the shadow, which is, oh, thank you. To me, you can't skip over that, and if you try,

[81:02]

you know, by means of samadhi or something or some kind of altered state which people can fall into and recreate by various means sometimes. Anyway, it's just fooling around. It has nothing to do with Buddhism, and it's not Zen. It's just tripping. So this meeting one's own pain and one's own, all the parts of ourselves that we denigrate, want to get rid of and all that to actually include them right in each thing that we do, stay close, and it means pain. It means that there's a lot of pain there. So that's the only way to go. The rest is just fooling around. So I know sometimes it all sounds like sweetness and light,

[82:08]

you know, but as you all know, if you're sitting, you meet everything that's there. Okay, well, thank you very much for participating tonight beautifully. And so we have one more class. Next week is the last class.

[82:37]

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