Good morning. This morning I would like to organize my talk around the word dharma, an important word of course in studying the dharma. The word dharma means the way it is or the way things are.

[01:03]

So dharma is not a truth outside of the way everything is or a truth above and beyond the way everything is all the time. So Zen master Nansen says ordinary mind is the way. He says this because ordinary mind is the way. There is nothing special that we're aiming for, nothing special we're trying to attain, nothing beyond world and mind as they really are moment by moment. So this is a simple thing, too simple and because it's so simple it's hard to grasp.

[02:17]

In other words in our practice we are not looking to a future time when things are going to be better or different from the way they are now. Actually we're not looking for anything, we're not looking for anything outside of our experience this moment. This is dharma. This is how it is. Throughout history philosophers and many people have tried to distinguish what makes a human a human, what is different about a human. I would say human beings are animals that describe things.

[03:20]

We are describing animals. And we seem to need to define our experience, to name our experience, to know our experience as a thing, as an object. And even our sensual pleasures are only really enjoyable to us insofar as we can identify them and collect them and point to them. If we eat a really sweet and tasty apple we have to know it and we have to say, boy what a great apple. And then we have to tell someone, you know this was one of the best apples I ever had. Or even if no one's there we tell ourselves, what a good apple. Or if we see a beautiful sunset we can't see it without saying, wow what a great sunset.

[04:33]

And if someone's with us we point, look, look at that sunset, isn't that something? And even if no one is there, to ourself we point and say, look at that sunset. So I think we're like this. It's very natural to us. And so naturally we need to be on the lookout all the time for new sensations, more complicated sensations that we can describe to ourselves. Or maybe just variations on the old ones, somehow to make it new so that, because to describe the same thing over and over again is boring. So we have to have new ones all the time. Something fresh, something unique, something never before seen or heard.

[05:36]

So we're always on the lookout for something like that. And our modern industrialized technological society is a kind of a monument, the whole thing is a kind of a monument, I think, to this human need to describe our experience. It's truly extraordinary, if not alarming, to see the extent to which human beings will go in order to find something new to describe to ourselves so that we can be sure that we're alive and that our lives are good. Now, the trouble with dharma, everything has a problem, you know, and the problem

[06:50]

with dharma, the way it is, the way things are, is that it is inherently indescribable. It is inherently indescribable. Anything that we can know or describe or define or enjoy or possess, in the usual sense that we use these words, is not dharma. It must be a projection, an idea, a concept, just a description. Our human mind, the mind of the describing animal, wants to make something always out of our simple, clear experience. But in reality, experience is just experience, it comes and it goes. It's not something you can make anything out of.

[07:55]

It's like we want to go to the beach and grab a handful of the water from the ocean and see if we can carry it with us to the car without having it leak through our fingers. And then, take it home and put it in a nice jar and invite our friends over and say, You see, there's the ocean, and feel satisfied that we have the ocean. But you know, it's not the ocean. Our mind, our sensual apparatus, is simply not capable of encompassing, describing the

[09:07]

whole ocean. So, we stay home and stare at our little jars of water, which we call, we have labeled, you know, the whole ocean. And we look at them and we long for the real ocean. So we get several jars of water and still we long for the real ocean. So we get jars of perfume, jars of wine, jars of preserves, candy, flowers, jars full of pebbles, and we still long for the real ocean. And we don't know why, deep down, we feel unfulfilled. Although we cannot know or possess the real ocean, we can be in tune with it.

[10:12]

We can join with it, swim in it, fully identify with it. This is not the same as describing it. Now, we, describing animals, are doomed forever to be frustrated in our attempts to describe it. So we better, starting now, get used to that, adjust to that. And maybe eventually we can relax about that and stop trying so much to describe it, possess it, name it, even though we probably can't entirely give it up, as long as we're human. So we can't possess it, describe it, name it, but we can really, actually, join it,

[11:21]

be in tune with it. And this, what I'm calling joining or being in tune with it, has to be a real experience for us, an actual realization, a personal, visceral realization. It can't just be a thought or an idea or a faith, because thoughts and ideas or faiths are just these little jars of water that don't really satisfy. Our whole body and mind and spirit must enter the great ocean and be entered by the ocean.

[12:23]

And we know the feeling of swimming in the ocean. Even though, in the ordinary sense, we don't know it, because we can't describe it, we can't possess it, we can't know it as an object that we can hold in our hand. And we are utterly transformed by this experience that I'm talking about. And yet, at the same time, we are also still the same person that we always have been, with the same history and the same tendencies that we have always had. But when Zen Master Nansen said, ordinary mind is the way, his student, who was later

[13:32]

to become Zen Master, Joshu, was there. And Joshu asked him, if ordinary mind is the way, how can I get to it? Good question, huh? Huh. This is the question. If ordinary mind is the way, how can I get to it? Master Nansen replied to him, if you try to get to it, you lose it completely. And Joshu responded, if I don't try to get to it, how can I know it? And Master Nansen replied, it's not a matter of knowing or not knowing.

[14:37]

It's not a matter of knowing or not knowing. It's fabulous, it's the first time I ever saw someone in a lecture with binoculars. Why not? To get more subtle with our talks, you know, using eyebrows. Cell binoculars at the door. Where was I?

[15:46]

Was I anywhere? I got it right here in the notes. Well, we're lucky in Zen practice because we have a way of practicing knowing and not knowing. It's very comforting, I find, to have a way of practicing knowing and not knowing. Because otherwise, even though it's there all the time, you would be lost. So I feel fortunate to have a way of practicing this. Just sit down, twist up our legs like a pretzel, and do Zazen.

[16:50]

To do Zazen, in the truest sense, is to enter the whole ocean of the way things are, of the way it is. Kadagiri Roshi always used this metaphor that I'm using today. And I can remember him so many times with that unbelievable smile that he had, saying, Just jump into the ocean and swim. You don't know how to do it, he would say. But just jump and move your arms and legs, and you can do it. You will swim. Zazen is really two kinds of meditation practiced simultaneously.

[18:07]

One kind is called shamatha, or calming meditation, and the other one is called vipassana, or insight meditation. Zazen is doing both these kinds of meditation at the same time. Shamatha, or calming meditation, is to focus the mind on a single object, giving up all distractions, and just staying with that object, staying with that single point. When we try to do this, we see that it's a little bit hard, because our mind has lots of stuff in it that seems somehow more interesting and more compelling than focusing it on some single point. It's funny how our lives seem so interesting, don't you think?

[19:15]

Our concerns and our emotions seem so interesting. It's such a huge universe, never mind just the state of California and the United States and the world, but the whole universe is so big, and yet we're so interested in our emotions and our reactions to things, that rather than unite with the universe, we'll sit there and wonder about what's for lunch and so forth, or how we're feeling. It's very amusing, don't you think, that we do this? And yet, try and sit and focus on a single point like you're breathing, and you'll see what a silly creature a human being is, how distracted with things that we know are not that interesting, really, but yet they come. So, in Samatha, or calming practice, we try over and over again to return to the single point of concentration,

[20:27]

the posture and the breathing in Zazen. As I say, the mind over and over again wants to go on to other things, because it's not subtle enough to stay with something as simple as posture or breathing. But when we do true Zazen, we make and we keep a firm commitment, we make and we keep a firm commitment to bring the mind back over and over again to a single object, so that it doesn't wander all over. Picturesque Zen language talks about finding the ox and tethering the ox, holding it, tethering it to a pole, so that it doesn't wander around aimlessly.

[21:31]

And if you keep doing this, you make this commitment to yourself, and you keep this commitment over and over again, eventually, believe it or not, the mind will stay with a single object, and finally, it will completely merge with that object. You know, like the mind and the object circling around, and they just line up exactly, and then, they become one thing. And when that happens, this is very peaceful, and there's a sense of well-being that pervades our whole body and mind. We feel a sense of physical and emotional lightness and joy,

[22:41]

and a kind of fluidity to our experience. And this is very nice. It's a pleasant, happy situation. And it's worth all of the struggles and cricks in the neck and pains in the legs and back, and all the mental frustration, from all of which, incidentally, we learn a great deal. Anyway, it's worth all of this. Now, Vipassana, or insight meditation, is turning the awareness of this peaceful, enriched mind to the Dharma, the way it is, the way things actually are.

[23:44]

With our mind open and deep, we look at how it is with us, moment by moment. And we see, we see, we actually see and experience how it is that each moment, each phenomenon arises from where we don't know and passes away, goes away to where we don't know. Every physical and mental and emotional thing comes up in our mind, and as soon as it comes up, it goes. The whole universe comes up together and passes away together. Absolutely nothing stays. Terrible, horrible things come up and pass away.

[24:48]

Marvelous, wonderful things come up and pass away. And none of it is describable or definable or possessible. Even the tendency, the need to describe and possess everything, comes up and goes away, moment after moment. And when we settle into the radical comingness, goingness, of our real life, of our life as it is,

[25:54]

when we really understand and appreciate that this is the quality of our life all of the time, when we really make this a personal, visceral experience, then we see that what we want to do, what we need to do, is to begin with patience and effort and a little help from our friends, to begin to reorient our lives with Dharma, the way things really are, the way it is, as the basis for our lives. And we rebuild our lives with a clear and firm sense of purpose and vision and direction.

[26:58]

In this new life we find real freedom, freedom from our own compulsions and confusions. It's not that we're perfect beings and free from all troubles. Far from it. In many ways we have a lot more trouble at this point than we ever dreamed possible. But this time it's real trouble. And we are free within this trouble, within our living, to just go on with our life clearly, taking whatever comes up in our lifetime, good or bad, as our challenge, as our path. And I think we feel also.

[28:13]

And these are benchmarks. These attitudes or feelings, I think, are benchmarks of our practice. We feel also a great responsibility and a great humility and a great gratitude. The ocean of life was flowing a long time before our life began, and it will flow on long after our life is ended. We really know this. We're really clear about this every minute. And so naturally we are grateful to all that has come before us giving us the fantastic gifts that we enjoy. And we are very grateful and very humble toward all that will come after us

[29:19]

to continue whatever good we have been able to establish in our lifetime and also to fix up the mistakes that we have made. Because we definitely make mistakes. And the power of our mistakes goes on even after we're gone. And someone is going to have to deal with that just the way we today are dealing with the mistakes of the past. So we feel this kind of gratitude. But also at the same time we feel a great responsibility, therefore, to make our best effort to do what we can,

[30:22]

not only for our own life but for everyone's life, knowing full well that we can't fix everything. One lifetime is so short we can't fix everything. Maybe we will never fix everything. Maybe all of us together, working forever, will never fix everything. But we still feel absolutely responsible, knowing this, to keep trying. And now let me tell you the last part of the dialogue between Master Joshu and Master Nansen. Master Joshu said, I remember, if I don't direct myself toward the way, how can I know it? And Master Nansen says,

[31:25]

it's not a matter of knowing or not knowing. Then Master Nansen explains more. He says, if you truly reach the real way, you will find it as vast and boundless as outer space. How can this be described? If you truly reach the real way, you will find it as vast and boundless as outer space. How can this be described? Our real life, the way it is, is as vast and boundless as outer space, and so is the life of each thing and being we meet. What we can describe, what occupies our mind,

[32:29]

is so small, so small, a part of this. The person we think we are, that one that other people, when they see us, say hello to, the person that other people say hello to, that person is just a little corner of this vastness. Having a sense of this, naturally we feel a true humility. And we offer vows of reverence and gratitude to each and every thing,

[33:31]

and we don't take praise or blame personally. Everything, everyone is our teacher. And we have the experience every day of how astonishing it is that we know so little, and that we can really do so little. And knowing this, feeling real humility with this thought, we try our best every day with a good spirit to appreciate and support others. The older I get, the more

[34:55]

confused the world seems to me, the more aware I am of how confused it is, and how confused I am. It's hard to feel confident about our future. And if we feel this, or even if we have, even if our own individual life is absolutely great, we can think of this and feel troubled. And a lot of times our individual life is not absolutely great, and it seems difficult to live. It seems as if it takes so much effort just to stay afloat with our lives,

[36:01]

cover all the bases, pay all the bills. The way things are, the way it is, the Dharma, is the way of peacefulness and ease. Although sometimes we can't imagine where it could be, it is always available to us, even right now. Wherever we are, whatever we are doing, whatever our circumstances, it is the very essence and nature of our existence. So I hope we can continue to practice in this way

[37:13]

as long as possible, together, helping each other. Thank you. May our attention... Good morning again. This is the part of the morning, for those of you who are unfamiliar with it, that we call... often known as question and answer. But when I do it, I call it discussion, so that we don't... Otherwise, it seems like I have to answer all the questions. It would be much too hard. So, please, you know,

[38:15]

raise any issues that you want to talk about, and whatever it is, someone will surely have something to contribute to the discussion. So... Yes? No, behind you. I really appreciated your talk this morning. I recognize myself as one of those constantly describing human beings, trying to, in my case, capture it in words, the feeling I have in certain places and landscapes, or trying to capture in photographs things like the ocean. And then, in thinking about it, much of human creativity that inspires us has come about through others doing that, paintings and music, trying to communicate to us their experience of the world. And I know that you're a poet, and so I wondered if you could comment on your experience as a poet and your experience as a Zen practitioner, and whether those are, in a contemplative way,

[39:17]

just about those two aspects of being. Yeah, that's a good question, and certainly the talk that I gave this morning would create that question. I think we naturally... This is our gift, right? As creatures, is to express ourselves, to sing, to dance, to respond to our experience in our life. But when we sing and we dance, we're not explaining what happened before, right? We're just, right now, making an expression from our deepest heart about what it is that we're living. And we have to do that. I think human beings have to have that. There's always been some kind of expression like that, whatever it is. So, I think it just... I think if you try, if you think that in creating your poem or your photograph,

[40:19]

you are capturing the actual experience that happened before, you will be very frustrated in your efforts to create art. But if you realize that when you create something, you are making, right now, an expression of your heart and your response that you have to reality and to the fact that you have been here, now, then it's very joyful and wonderful. And what you communicate to others is, this is life, please live it on your own. So, I think art is a great encouragement to all of us to live our lives. But it's not a substitute for living our life. And one of the arguments that I have with the artistic path, at least as we have had it in the past, is that there has been some kind of notion, particularly in western art, that a person could be a totally rotten person, you know, and make these beautiful artworks. And I think that doesn't work anymore. I don't think we can be a rotten person,

[41:21]

you know, and pay zero attention to our life and create meaningful art. I think now... Because there are people who do create art that isn't meaningful, right? I mean, even people who are famous and wealthy by virtue of their art create art that, in my opinion, is not so great. And so there is this kind of art, too. But for me, Dharma art would be art that comes from a life that is in tune with the universe and that doesn't try to capture the universe, but just expresses one's concern and joy to be alive and encourages other people, the viewer, the listener, the reader, to find their own way of living fully in this sense. So that's how I feel about it. And certainly, somebody asked me this on the deck, you know. Somebody said, I hope your talk today was not a renunciation of poetry. And far from it. I have no concept in writing poetry that I'm explaining anything to anybody. Quite the opposite.

[42:23]

Poetry is a kind of a rear-guard action against this tendency in language to think that we're explaining something. Poetry is a deconstruction, in my view, of this describing tendency. And to me, all the best art is that. Viktor Shklovsky, the Russian critic who wrote and lived around the time of the Revolution, up until the 30s or 40s, had a great slogan about art. He said, to make a stone stony, there is art. And we're so habitual about our approach to a stone that we forget that a stone is a stone. And art needs to defamiliarize us sufficiently so that we will see the stone as a stone. And I think this is a great way of explaining it. Did you ever notice, if you go to an art gallery or a wonderful movie or read a great book,

[43:24]

and then you walk out on the street and everything looks a little bit different, fresher? Because the work of art has defamiliarized us, taken our descriptions away for a moment. Our habitual descriptions that wear us down and make us dull has taken that away for a moment and opened up the world to us a little bit. And Buddhist practice is the same in that way. So I think these two things go together. They're not at all contradictory, although there can be an approach to art that's contradictory. Yes? As I have become older and I think also become more aware of what is, I find that I am preferring the jar of seawater to the sea. And it's, I think, a result of that with the awareness has come fear.

[44:25]

Yes. I can handle the jar and there are fewer dangers in the jar than there are in the sea. And that concerns me greatly. And just coming to Gringotts for that reason kind of concerns me greatly because I'm much more aware now of the danger. Yeah. And the result of fear. Well, you know what? The jar is a lot more dangerous. I see that. I can understand that it doesn't look like it. Right. But actually, the jar is a whole lot more dangerous. The jar will make you suffer. The ocean will accept you and hold you. So, initially, I can see why it looks that way, but maybe it will take something to happen to you, to make it clear and obvious to you that the jar is a lot more dangerous. Well, it's true.

[45:26]

But my experience has been the things that have happened to me have moved me more towards the jar than to the ocean. As a child, I had no fear of the ocean. I was not aware of currents. I was not aware of rocks. I was not aware of sharks. And now I am. Well, let's not take the analogy too literally. But the analogy, I mean, it really seems to fit. Well, there's no sharks in the Dharma Ocean. I understand what you're saying, but keep practicing. Yeah. Of course, yeah.

[46:30]

No, I agree with you. I think that in the Dharma Ocean... So, this is where we have to be very careful with what the words mean and how we use them and what our intentions are. Of course, you're right. And I don't mean to say that in the Dharma Ocean, nothing bad happens. Certainly, there's pain and terrible things happen. But when we're settled in our life and in our practice, those things are not sharks. Or if they're sharks, they're happy sharks or sharks that we can work with. That's what I'm trying to say. There's fear, for sure, in practicing. We're afraid to let go. That's true. But what I mean to say is that in the end, if you really look at it, not letting go is much more dangerous because we're piling up difficulty in our life and confusion, and we suffer a lot more. So, I don't mean to minimize

[47:31]

the fear that there is in letting go, but I think that we have to take that path. Otherwise, we're going to be worse off. And difficulties do happen. But when we're settled in our practice, we take those difficulties as our path. So, I don't want to make it rosy. I was just getting tangled up. As we were dialoguing here, using that analogy, we were kind of trying to speak through. We were getting a little bit confused about the words. So, this is what I mean to say. Do I make it clear to both of you how I'm speaking? Okay, sorry. I'm not more precise about my words. Yes? Well, I didn't attend a lecture, so maybe you can talk about this, but it sounds like this analogy that we're using here is that you're looking at a bottle of water and then there's the ocean. There's like these two mutually exclusive kinds of things. So, is there a way of life that you combine some kind of consciousness with the ocean at the same time that you're immersing yourself in doing your daily activities, such as looking at the bottle of water?

[48:32]

Well, there's no other way of doing it. How could you not look at your daily activity? I mean, would there be... What life could there possibly be where ordinary events, like eating and going to the toilet and saying good morning, would not be there? Of course. That's the only way. Well, that sounds different from the Dharma Ocean. That's what I'm talking about. No. It's not a different set of activities. No. Same. Same. But we are aware of everything being included in something very ordinary and very small. But even so, realistically, we may not have the thought, oh, now I'm walking down the street but this is really the vast ocean. I mean, we would be kind of crazy if we were walking along all day long thinking we were at the bottom of the ocean. It's not that we have such a thought. But we have a spirit of freedom and inclusion in our living through the daily, everyday things that we're doing. Because that's all our life is, right? It's just daily, everyday things that we're doing. What other life is there

[49:34]

besides that? Even when we're in meditation retreat, we're still washing our face and brushing our teeth and taking care of our clothes and sitting up and getting, getting up and sitting down and feeling a breeze and so on. So, our life is nothing more than one moment of daily living after another, no matter what the circumstances are. I guess those things sound a bit different to me than having to talk to your mother-in-law on the phone every morning and, you know, sort of getting caught up in things which seem, which in your mind are very contradictory because part of you feels like you, you, want to be part of this kind of calm whole but another part of you

[50:34]

is getting pulled into the, more of an extreme of what he was saying. And how do you not, I mean, I start feeling really bad about myself because I have no wish. Yeah. Right, well, I mean, it's not something that in one weekend or one week or a month we suddenly, you know, able to negotiate our way through life without feeling confused and as if we had fallen off the path. We never fell off the path but sometimes we feel, a lot of the times we feel like, wow, I fell off the path, my mind isn't calm anymore. So that's why practice is something that we always do and we gain experience and it seems like as we go along it becomes more possible with our training and our meditation practice and our study and all the things that we do in practice, it becomes more possible to have a calmer mind and be clear about what we're doing more of the time.

[51:35]

But still, there are some special things like talking to our mother-in-law on the phone that may always, you know, really confuse us and make us upset because there's so much resistance and confusion there and then those are the very things that we work on the most and look at the most and sit with the most and try to soften up around the most and we do. We do soften up around those things eventually. You know, the head student here in the practice period gave a wonderful talk the other day which was very moving. She said that her mother left home when she was very little and went away and never lived with the family anymore and so for all these years, maybe that was like 30 years ago, and for all these years, she's had this, whenever the word mother was mentioned or any kind of, anything about that sort of relationship, she would become, you know, upset, you know, irrational, resistant and so on.

[52:35]

And over many years of practice, she discovered that that was loosening up in her and she actually sought out her mother, found her and was able to have a happy relationship with her after many, many years of resentment and confusion and not acknowledging even that it was a problem. So those kinds of things, that, like that, are the most difficult to discover the roots of and accept. But with practice, over time, we make the effort and it is possible. Does your reaction change to people and things or just the actual participation? Oh, both, I think. But I want to avoid here making promises. Like, I promise you that if you do this and this, you will have this reaction. I don't know what will happen to you, you know. Maybe you'll never change your reaction or anybody. I don't know. But I do know from my experience, myself and practicing with many other people, that people do, this does happen, people do change their reactions to very deep things

[53:36]

in their lives through the effort that they make in practice. It does happen. But there's no guarantees. And there's no, it's not like, you know, there's twelve easy steps to do this. No, you keep making effort and things change. Things will always change no matter what. But will they, will you keep piling up change in the same direction or will you be able to clarify? That depends on how much effort you make and the sincerity of your practice. But I think, I mean, I wouldn't be in this business if I didn't think that practice was effective in our lives. Not always and not entirely perfect, but I think that it does make a difference. It does help us. And I know some people who who could say with great truth, this has saved my life. This has saved my life, you know, practicing the way. So, yeah, it's hard to believe. I mean, it's hard to imagine when we're so confused

[54:37]

that we could ever not be confused in that same way. But time goes by and things that seem unimaginable later on, you know, but it's funny though because it's not like you say, oh, you know, wonderful, I got over this problem and now I feel so much better and so on because what it is is that there's a different problem at that stage, right? So you say, somebody says, gee, it's so wonderful that you don't have this problem with your mother-in-law anymore. Don't you feel great about that? And you say, gee, I didn't even notice that I don't have that problem anymore because now I'm working on this and this is, no, impossible. So, you know, and you get more sensitive and you're aware of problems that you weren't. That's what I meant when I said you have a lot more trouble because you may be aware of, you know, like when you first start practicing and you hear about the three poisons, you know, greed, hate and illusion, you think greed, hate and illusion, give me a break, you know, I mean, a little selfishness here and there, but greed? No, that's not me. Or hatred? No, that's not me.

[55:38]

Then you sit and you look and you sit and you look and you realize, oh my God, I'm full of greed. You know, it's like on every moment of experience tremendous greed is coming up and I never noticed that before. And almost every person I meet I have this fabulous and heavy going aversion to so many people I didn't even notice that before. It's very discouraging, you know. So, you know, and that does happen, that is an experience, but somehow as you begin to see those things you're also at the same time establishing yourself in the path and it's, you know, in other words you become a bigger person and you're able to take that knowledge at the time that it comes up, although at first it's a little shocking. So you keep working, you keep refining, keep making effort. And there's always something, you know. The Buddha is, you know, still scratching his head and thinking, if only I could just, you know. It's one more period of zazen or one more, just a little bit harder practice here. So,

[56:40]

you know, us too. Yeah. Yes. And nature is doing its own trip and this, for me, is a place that I'm trying to understand from your talk that somehow the word humility comes up but it feels like a leap and can you give me some steps on how to go from hopelessness to humility because in a way it feels like mixing apples and oranges and I have a sense that somehow they're connected. Well, several years ago I was invited

[57:41]

to go to a big environmental conference where they had, you know, a lot of little workshops and so I gave a workshop on, I forget what it was about, what I did was with the group I said, with my little workshop group, I said, do you know that regardless of what happens with how we take care of our planet from now on, the planet will definitely be destroyed. It's inevitable because the sun only lasts so long and when the sun burns out the earth is destroyed no matter what we do. So we have to remember that we're not talking about saving the planet, we're talking about temporarily having it extend a longer time than it might, would otherwise and it's not even that because no matter what we do it'll still, the earth will still be there. Species will perhaps be wiped out including ours but the earth will still be there no matter what until the time that the sun burns out

[58:41]

and the earth, whatever happens to it happens. So, every view of our life has to begin with impermanence. Everything is impermanent. Period. Everything is impermanent. So we have to, we really have to digest that. We really have to merge with that and see that and meditate on that. And when we do it's very liberating because you know, if we think here's me, I'm this person, I'm this, I'm that and I'm going to be out of here, you know, so now I understand impermanence and I feel twice as bad. Well that's not really understanding impermanence because when you really understand impermanence you realize the nature of this self. See, the very nature of this self that we cherish is a self that's impermanence that has no hard and fast describable reality. That's who we actually are and so there's a liberation in realizing who we actually are.

[59:41]

There's a peacefulness in it. And you know, I remember some years ago I went on this long marathon, gave a marathon classes, three years classes on the Avatamsaka Sutra which is a vast Buddhist sutra, you know, like thousands of pages long. Really, you know, and as I studied that sutra I realized that there is a grand vision in Mahayana Buddhism because this sutra, I mean, like the earth and the fate of the earth in the context of what this sutra is talking about is this tiny little thing because it's talking about world systems and universes on top of universes and you know, there's the earth in this solar system and there's all the solar systems in the universe and there's this universe and many universes and stacks, there's a dozen universes stacked on top of one another coming out of a great ocean and so forth describing all this. And it says that that the acts of

[60:42]

wholesome acts that we perform in our lifetime and all the lifetimes in the past and into the future build up positive effort toward enlightenment and that it's inevitable that eventually all the world systems will attain the Buddha way. This is already set. That's how the Avatamsaka Sutra teaches. It's already set. It's already, the great bodhisattvas of the past have already made irrevocable vows for the enlightenment of all beings and that this is actually coming so that we can have confidence that each act of our wholesome karma is an accumulation. Even though, so maybe the planet, this planet goes or some person goes or whatever, these things happen because it's not like going all in one direction but the general drift of the universe is going that way and I believe that. So I believe that I don't know what will happen to my life. I could have, many disasters could happen to me starting right now for all I know and my loved ones

[61:43]

could be, many disasters could happen in our nation or our planet and so on. Many things could happen and we know that things do happen. I mean, it's stupid to think that nothing will happen. Things like that happen. People get hit by cars and their houses burn down and they get incurable diseases. Why shouldn't that happen to us? Why shouldn't that happen to me? We know that. It's inevitable that there will be an amount of that in our lifetime, in our world. But, still, the acts of kindness that we perform, the acts of clarity that we perform go on and there's an accumulation of these. So I think we have a kind of a faith in that and an endurance to accept the inevitability of difficulty and keep going. So that's, to me, that's the great Mahayana path. One of the sutras says, make your mind just like the mind of the earth. You can go to the earth, you know, and pee on it and spit on it. This is what it says in the sutra. You can pee on it, you can spit on it, you can shit on it,

[62:45]

but the earth is not like saying, what are you doing shitting on me? The earth is just sort of accepting it and turning it into something useful, you know, and going on. Make your mind like that. Have that kind of endurance. And I think, as you meditate on impermanence and see what impermanence is and how you are impermanent, how you really are impermanent, not some projection of what impermanence is, but the real impermanence, and as you see that and see how it is that what we do in our lifetime of value goes on and [...] accumulates, you have a kind of a faith, a very realistic faith, you know, a faith that takes into account that rotten things happen, tough things happen, but whatever it is, it's our path and we go on like that. And we may even have something happen and have anguish over that, but we go on and we keep... So this kind of spirit of endurance and faith in the possibility and the definite quality that what we do for the good will continue, this is characteristic

[63:46]

of the Buddha Dharma as I understand it. And we... And this comes little by little with practicing, you know, and with encouraging each other to practice. We don't practice all by ourselves, you know, somewhere. We have lots of support and friendship as we are here today, you know, sharing our understanding together. And with all of that, our faith in this grows and grows and grows and it's not the kind of faith like a leap of faith, but a faith we know, you know, from our own life. We see that this is true in our life. And... So, that's how I feel and I'm not the only one who feels this way. Many, many people as they make effort and practice share this view. you know, the more people that there are sharing that view, the more pleasant place it is to go to work with some people sharing that view. And you don't have to be a Buddhist. Yeah. You don't have to be a Buddhist to have this kind of a spiritually oriented viewpoint. Many traditions are showing us

[64:46]

the same thing. And the more people there are who share this viewpoint, well, the better it is and the more chances we have of having a happy ending to our little story. So, please encourage your friends to be... You know, don't... You can't... If you try to talk somebody out of how bad things are, it never works. Oh, it's not so bad, you know. No, it's bad enough. It's bad enough. But at the same time, taking that into account, this is not... This is not a... Logically, it's not a reason to despair. Small view creates despair. Big view, no matter what happens, it's... We can deal with it. Yeah. Yes? I have a problem with the big view response. I've heard it before, like, well, even if this planet dies, there's other planets around the universe that have life on it, or, just like you said, the planet's going to die anyway in a few billion years,

[65:47]

regardless. No, there is... I don't want to get the damn thing about it, but there is an ecological holocaust going on right now, and it's fueled by greed, and stupidity, and ignorance. It's not something that's just happening like the sun going over, it's having reactions that don't have to happen, that are reversible if we can get it together. Only it doesn't seem like we're getting it together. And, the only reason why, I feel, the only reason we have a snowball's chance of hell of surviving is through angry, outraged people who are terrified and enraged by what's happening to the planet and they're trying to save it against these juggernauts of whatever you want to say, industrialism, or capitalism, or whatever. And, I feel it's very it's very easy

[66:49]

to have an attitude that, well, it's going to die in a billion years anyway, so let's not get overly concerned about this. And, that can really flash really easily into a sort of passive, passive attitude that would allow the shit that's happening to continue to happen to other things. To generate that outrage and anger that's needed in order to stop happening. And, I just wanted to respond to that. Yeah, well, thank you for bringing that up because that brings up another side of what I feel that I didn't say in responding over in this direction. Uh, I almost entirely agree with what you say. Uh, the fact that the planet will die eventually is not an excuse not to do anything. In fact, uh, when we, uh, understand impermanence and understand, you know, the real nature of our life and the nature of how acts continue one way or the other, we are highly motivated and, as I said in my talk, we feel a sense of responsibility to creating good

[67:49]

and wholesome acts because we know that if we do nothing that's an act. And if we do something negative that's an act. And if we do something positive that's a powerful act. So, we're highly motivated to be responsible and do things that will help and not, and cease from doing things that will hurt. Exactly. And, I think you're right and I've thought about this a lot, you know. I think you're right that, uh, when things get really out of balance it's natural for outrage and even violence to be the result of that. And that, that outrage and violence is probably what it takes at a certain point in time to wake people up. However, I don't believe, and this is my understanding and my faith, I don't believe that anger and outrage and violence in the long run as a path, as a way of taking care of things will work. I just don't believe that. So, let me just finish. I didn't use the word violence. Yeah, no you did. I know you did. Anger and outrage. Anger and outrage and violence. I'm talking about anger and outrage in a particular way.

[68:50]

Anger and outrage and violence I don't think will work as a way of changing things. I think the only way that will work in the long run, like I say, if someone is angry and outraged and violent, I can understand that and sometimes that act of doing that changes things around, like we saw in Chiapas. You know, that really changed things around. But to continue like that, I don't think it works. So, I think that once we feel that, the next thing that happens is if we come toward Dharma and we receive teachings and start practicing in that way, we then can have the ability, I hope, or we can work toward the ability to take actions that are strong and necessary with a loving heart. So we can, you know, block, blockade, you know, a shipment of arms and the way

[69:51]

Gandhi did, you know, with a heart of loving kindness as much as we can to work toward that. Because I think if we encourage ourselves to look at enemies and look at villains, we can take action and not to see that the people who are, the very people who are doing the stuff that's making us all suffer and will make us all suffer even worse eventually, those people are human beings like us and they're, you know, misguided and confused and we have to have a heart of loving kindness for them as well. That's my faith and my belief that we, that doesn't mean that we can't take strong actions. But I really feel like if you take strong actions with a heart of hatred and self-righteousness, just my little knowledge of history has shown me that people who do that end up establishing situations and regimes that make it worse or just as bad as the ones that they replace. That's been my experience and what I see so far. Because nobody has it figured out. I don't think anybody knows for sure if we don't do this and we do do this

[70:51]

everything's going to be better. We don't know. I think we have to, we have to go on our knowledge at this moment and our faith and open our hearts. So, that's my response to what you say and I don't know if we disagree or not but I just feel like there's a limited utility to anger and outrage. I think anger and outrage has to turn at some point. That's what I think. Most recent issue of Tricycle had some very good articles. Yeah. How Green's Buddhism Right. Discussed things like that. Yeah, I read some of them. or the equipoise between a loving heart and positive change as opposed to the karma that you create when you act out of anger. Yeah. Your anger is for what's right because what's right is in what's right to yourself and it becomes self-righteousness and on and on and on. Yeah. And, you know, the, I mean, I guess I want to say that the Dharma,

[71:52]

the real Dharma, you know, is infallible. But Zen Buddhism isn't infallible and, you know, Theravada Buddhism isn't infallible and Tibetan Buddhism isn't infallible and I think that it's definitely true that to be passive is a problem, a fault of traditions of the Dharma. It is, I think. And we have to be aware of that and take that into account and try, I mean, passivity and the bodhisattva vow are directly opposite. So, but the traditions do, sometimes the teachings tend to encourage that. Like if I say what I said over here and you didn't say what you said to bring out the other side, somebody could walk away thinking, oh yes, this is the teaching that we should realize that everything's going to die anyway and we ought to cool it out and not worry about it. Somebody could really hear that. And in fact, this has been heard, this message has been heard in that way in Buddhism, in Asia certainly and to some extent

[72:52]

in the West. And I think we need to do better than that. And we need to recognize that this is a fault, you know, everything has its downside, right? As soon as we open our mouth we're saying something but then we're not saying something else, right? Otherwise we couldn't say one word, right? So, yeah, so that's how it happens in dialogue and as we grapple with these things we bring out all the sides of it and we hope that we, we all, let's hope we all survive together, you know, and make this work. Thank you for bringing that up. Yeah? Have you ever had the opportunity to teach children that their thought intentions and their beliefs can change the world and they're very frightened and they feel powerless? Yeah. Well, sure. Yeah, I mean, right now I'm a high school teacher and that's exactly what I'm trying to teach the children that I work with but, of course, you can't just come out and say that because,

[73:54]

oh, you can't say it but they'll think it's baloney, you know. So, everything that happens has to be in the service of that kind of teaching. Everything that you present and demonstrate has to be in the service of that and it's a long, it's a long, hard path because to really learn something and to really make something your own, somebody just doesn't tell you when you hear it. Sometimes that happens, somebody tells you, like, you know, the sixth ancestor heard a line from the Diamond Sutra and he understood but that's because for, you know, many lifetimes he had been working on it and it just happened to come up there so you worked on it. Yeah, I mean, did he say, well, my life's Buddhism or are you not? No, I don't talk about Buddhism much. People know, my students know that I'm a Zen practitioner but I talk about, you know, responsibility and why is it, why are we reading this book, what do you think and we often have many, I get them to write a lot

[74:55]

and many of the things that I, the questions that I pose for them are exactly about this. What is your responsibility? You know, in fact, we're going to spend the next week on that question. This is because we had a big final exam about these different times in history that we studied and what people did during those times to make the world better. That was the final exam question and now this next week they're going to write about, what about you? See, what are you going to do? How do you see yourself in this world and what are you going to do? And it's not because I'm making this up. All my colleagues feel this way too. I'm not the one who suggested this particular exercise. It was one of my colleagues who did. And I think, in general, everybody that I know, anyway, who is working with youngsters is concerned about this and is trying to help bring out this side of youth. It's interesting that first-graders kindergarteners

[75:56]

can do it. Kindergarteners. Yeah. Children are very aware and many of them are either consciously or quite unconsciously disturbed. We've given these people a pretty big responsibility. You know? I can't imagine quite what it would be like to be, you know, thirteen years old right now. I figure, you know, that people my age, we might actually escape, you know, personal. We might actually be able to drive cars the rest of our lives. It's possible. But the next generation almost definitely will not be able to drive cars. Imagine that somebody has a job. Let's see, now we're going to redesign the transportation infrastructure of the United States of America in the next twenty years and there's no money in the budget. Now let's see. What do we do? Imagine

[76:56]

somebody's going to have that problem, you know, but we might not have it. But they might have it, so. Well, the problem we have right now is we have to educate our children and there's no money in the budget. Right. I submit that there is money in the budget, it's just not going to educate the children. I agree with both. Yes? I also think that the people who are, who we perceive as trashy here are doing it, the loggers who hate owls and cut down old growth trees do it because they want to save the old ways that made their grandfathers happy and they want their children to have a good life and they want to work outdoors instead of in the office and they all have, they don't have an alternative. Right. No one has shown them that that's not the only way to live a good life. Yeah. Just a quick response, it's not the loggers that are destroying the forests, it's the people who are paying the loggers

[77:56]

and it hasn't always been the way that it's, it's a new practice right now to destroy the way that it's going on right now. So this isn't a tradition that's speaking right now, it's just pure naked greed. And it's all driven by excessively consumptive lifestyles. So don't forget that the people that are paying the loggers... It's everyone who builds a redwood deck on their house who has a redwood hot tub, who's cutting down a redwood tree that took two thousand years to grow. We're all part of it. Yeah, that's a problem. You know, we're all, we all enjoy the fruits of this. You know, the poorest among us has more than we need and more than most people have. Each of us has a path that means the most to us

[78:57]

and can be truest to us. And yet we're all aware of all these equally disturbing parts of life, of all the life around us. And some of us feel guilty and powerless over many of these things and yet we can't solve all the problems or address all of them. We want to live in a hopeful, positive way and we're content with this basic faith and this basic understanding of the impermanence of our lives. But it's hard, I wonder if you could say anything about finding your path. I haven't done much zazen but I don't know if that opens up any doors or answers these questions to keep you from being so overwhelmed by everything and not knowing where you fit and becoming guilty versus just being clear and following some path if it makes sense for you. Well, feeling guilty might be good

[79:58]

a little bit if it's a spur. It's an uncomfortable feeling, feeling guilty. So, the good part about it is it's a spur to make you change. So that's the good part. But the bad part is if you decide to pursue guilt as a way of life it's an excuse. Yeah, I do all these horrible things but I feel guilty so it's okay. Right? Since I'm feeling uncomfortable about it it's alright because I'm paying my dues. I'm feeling uncomfortable, I'm feeling guilty so I mean I have this big car and I run around and do this and do that but at least I'm feeling guilty. So then, at a certain point that guilt becomes I would say just a way of your continuing this life. So then you have to forget about guilt and do something. And to me first of all

[80:58]

to uncover your intention to live a life of benefit that in itself is difficult. We all have those thoughts and those feelings but to actually uncover that intention you know we have the idea that like physical things we work at little by little but mental things and spiritual things ought to come automatically. But we don't think having the intention to benefit others is something that I need to work on nurture make bigger make stronger we don't think that. We think I have this intention but I'll go I'll work out and get my muscles stronger. I think we can make our muscles stronger you know but we don't think we can make the intention to benefit others stronger in our lives. So I think that that's the first order of business is to get in touch with that intention and to work at it to put actual time and effort into making it stronger and bigger and when that intention gets stronger and bigger and serious in our lives

[81:58]

we're naturally going to have to do things in accord with that intention. We can no longer it becomes just too impossible and uncomfortable to be doing things that are exactly the opposite of that intention. So everybody has that intention once in a while but they don't work at making it bigger and stronger and so it's pretty easy to do all kinds of things that are at odds with it and then they feel guilty and it's okay. So you know we have to use our guilt to change to take action and then I think spiritual cultivation is a very real thing to do because it changes our attitude and when our attitude changes we actually start doing things differently and then we have the big problem practically speaking of how are we going to get from the life we're in now to a life that's more in tune with in line with that intention? How are we going to do that? And it's a practical problem that we all have to face and then we do our best you know and then this is a very individualized practical situation. What am I going to do? What skills do I have? What blah blah

[82:58]

you know and I think the whole way that we have set up to live doesn't have in it the things that we need to find to do to make this happen in our lives. So somebody says well gee I'd like to do this but I don't see anything that I well I think this next period is going to be one in which we have to create things to do that don't now exist as sustainable ways of life. There's tremendous things that need to be done to do for good. They're out there they're screaming for someone to do them but people can't do them because well I don't get paid for it or I need a blah blah you know I can't how can I earn a living? Well we're going to have to somehow figure out a way to do that as a collective society. Figure out that that you can sustain a life even if what your job is is hanging out with children so that they'll have somebody to be with. That that actually can be a sustainable economically sustainable livelihood. We have to reorient the way we house ourselves I mean it's a big thing but every individual is going to have to

[83:59]

find a way to make that happen in their lifetime for them in the best way that they can given the limitations of what the system is at this point. And encourage others to do that too. I don't know. If I had all the answers you could elect me president. Well I don't. I was really agreeing with what you were saying. I spent 15 years practicing martial arts and I'm trying to get myself centered enough to be able I can take care of myself first of all and then be effective and also be in a good place. It's like to do to do something it's important for me to be in a good place and have a positive attitude. I personally really try not to bring a lot of negative energy toward me. I've been reading just the IJ instead of

[84:59]

the Chronicle lately and I picked up the Chronicle yesterday and I just felt oh it was it was awful just what was in the paper was so awful and I know it's there and I know that I can't do a lot about it but I feel that my energy and if I can get my energy peaceful that whatever I have inside me goes around me and I think that's that's what we're all doing here. That's another aspect. To me it's like the Zen and the martial arts are really really close and I feel that what things that you said about fires and you know so much happens because people are careless because they don't see what's around them and if we can see that I think it helps a lot. Thank you. Maybe there's a little joy in Buddhism that you can talk about.

[86:14]

Well we haven't really been talking about Buddhism so much as the state of the world, right? In our own in the state of our own emotions and feelings. So no, there's no joy in Buddhism but there is joy in the world. There is joy in our lives. We're not talking about it today but I hope there is joy in our lives. Don't you think? There's some joy in and I think it's we have to take joy in in simple things, I think. You know children growing up and being born and a beautiful day like today and the trees and the ocean and you know our concern that we're expressing here today although we're talking about very depressing things it's actually very joyful that we are concerned, right? It's very moving and joyful that we are concerned and that we're willing to talk about our concerns with each other in this way in this sincere way. To me that's

[87:29]

joyful in our friendships in our loves in our lives. There's tons of things that are joyful but there's really no joy in Buddhism. Buddhism is boring and depressing and you know I'm sure there are more edifying things to think about than Buddhism. I thought there was a small part of your talk where you mentioned at a certain point in this one kind of meditation where there might come a feeling of peace. Oh, yes, yes. Yeah. Well, yes, I find myself meditation to be very joyful on the whole. And there is I mean, I don't meditate so much nowadays because of my busy job teaching high school but a little bit. Every day I meditate a little bit.

[88:29]

Well, no, that's not true. Every day I don't meditate a little bit because when I go to meditation I do interviews. occasionally I meditate. Like before the talk today I was meditating for about twelve minutes and it was great, you know. It was wonderful to sit there and harmonize my thoughts and my mental apparatus with my breathing and feel that. And I was walking down from my little place where I was meditating to the Zen Do and feeling what a wonderful rhythm the whole world is in. Just like the rhythm of my breathing. And it's really wonderful you know, to do that and to walk around in that spirit to walk around almost anywhere. Whether it's down in Mill Valley which is such a cute little town to walk around in. Or San Francisco with its really beautiful Victorian buildings and hills and views. To walk around in that harmony with one's own breath and with the rhythm of the universe

[89:32]

is very joyful. So yeah, meditation I think is a pleasure. I don't like to talk about it that much because a lot of people struggle with meditation for a long time. And so if you talk about how wonderful it is then either people feel like well, I must be doing it wrong or I'm so frustrated because he says it's wonderful and I find it really hard. You know, so I don't like to talk about that so much. But once in a while just to remind people that it is fun to meditate and very it does tune you in you know, with the universe and make you feel some sense of hope and belonging to everything. So, to me in my life my own personal experience has been that I have thousands of times more joy in my living after a long time of practicing than I did before but then again I was a mess you know, before. I'm still a mess but I'm happy a mess. Than I was. So, yes but like I say you know, we don't like to say you know, you don't want to you know, you don't want to stand up

[90:32]

holding up these big signs and say, you know come practice Buddhism it'll make you feel happy and your life will be better and it'll be good for you and you'll be joyful every minute and so on. You know, one doesn't want to do that because this would be false advertising because you suffer a lot in living, too. Right? And also you know you have to practice because it is necessary that you do that for you. If you practice because I told you it was a great idea and I'm saying how happy I am you know, then you should practice this would be a big waste of your time because it's only when you come to locate your own intention and your own necessity to practice that will carry you through and that's the only thing that will carry you through. So, in Zen you know, we're actually the tradition in Zen is you know if you come to practice they throw you out. That's the tradition. They throw you out and they make you sit outside the gate until you finally by virtue of your

[91:32]

persistence are admitted. So we're much more welcoming because we've been so criticized for such a long time for not being welcoming enough that we're making and we want to be welcoming you know, so we make a big effort to be welcoming but in the end we don't want to go around slapping everybody on the back and shaking their hands saying, gee, we haven't met you before and how are you? You know, we don't want to do that because we know that that... that that... We don't want to do that We don't want to do that

[91:56]

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