This podcast is offered by San Francisco's Zen Center on the web at sfcc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. For a couple of minutes. You know, the Zazen of Bodhidharmas don't know is to not know the body, just rediscover the body. Paying attention to what physical experience is now. What is not leaning forward about? but it's not leaning side to side.

[01:02]

What is that point to balance? Moving upright over the sit bones. How is the breath experienced in the body? Breathing in. How is the breath experienced in the body breathing out? breaths, can you very deliberately pay attention to the physical experience of breathing in?

[02:09]

Does the breath register more strongly at a certain point? Does it have a sequential experience? Throat, chest, stomach, It wants us to not know what the body is, but to just attend to physical experience. Like giving it a name. is it to not know what should happen or should not happen?

[03:39]

How was it practicing with that, Cohen? This would be your cue to say don't know. Learn it with noticing how you can notice how your stories are asserting a description of reality, a description of yourself, a description of your past, a description of what's going to happen next, a description of another person. To not know. Hmm. Can anyone be like, I wasn't so sure about all that.

[07:28]

thunderous enlightenment with the world just cracked open, flooded with light, loaded in luminosity. It's been nice in the kitchen because a lot of the times they give you a recipe and you start to work on the recipe and then it's not the recipe that you're supposed to be making. Or, you know, we don't have that ingredient or something like that. And it's good to not know how the recipe is supposed to go if we discovered that you don't have the main ingredient. We have to use something else to say. But yeah, it tastes good anyway. alive in your weak lyric.

[08:53]

But there are times in that. I'm scared to think that I I could get back. There was this way of a good way or a bad way. Or a proper way. And the right way. Gee, I wonder if there's good words. There's no difference. If that's done, it was very, very important.

[10:17]

Yes. And, yeah, that present. Goodbye. Okay. I've never heard the story about St. Francis, where he went outside in English at Nature, and he just started talking in this amazing way. And it was recorded, and nobody knew what he was talking about. Just this exuberant appreciation for all existence. The birds? The birds and the wolves? Well, maybe the birds and the wolves understood, but the other people with them didn't know.

[11:22]

Any other experiences? When I was reading it in the email, I think John I was thinking about the possibilities of interpretation because of how it comes to Chinese, I hope a thousand years ago to unlock English translations. The translations are different because translations I've seen in the past always say, I don't know. But that's a lot different from not knowing. But the version that Jones sent us, it's a no-no. That's a very different meaning also because that could be interpreted as meaning. There's no way to say who I am. There's no way to say who any of us are, who we are, but it's indefinable. Who we are that can't be answered.

[12:33]

And I thought that would connect with the previous question, right? That was the first principle. And what he found is says, empty this vast, this space. And I thought, well, yes, we're infinite also. Each one of us is also infinite. But the homework joke was to take it from the conceptual into the actual, into the very particulars and activities of your life. What about that part? Yeah. Yeah, I appreciate what you say. And of course, I was reading another koan today. Because it was connected, it was the same emperor.

[13:34]

And he had the same attendant to come later in the koan. And then in one of the footnotes I read, It said, and it's not very likely that this story actually happened. This guy was young when this guy was old. There was very little overlap between their lives, and they lived in entirely different parts of China. So the fact that they could have actually come together and had this exchange... like this 18-year-old traveling to the other end of China to talk to this 18-year-old person and doing it in the presence of the emperor. So as I was saying before, you know, like myths and fairy tales, they hang around because they carry a message or a significance.

[14:38]

within the realm of human experience. You know? And I'll talk a little bit about the particulars of this con, but you know, we could spend the whole class agreeing upon as best we can what's the exact meaning. You know? You know, even though it's a translation, you know, but But in a way, so what? Almost all of these callings have a certain element of uncertainty. They didn't really have that conversation. Is that exactly what they said to each other? Something was carried forth. Some message was carried forth. Then how does that message be expressed in our life?

[15:40]

How can we take it as an admonition for practice and then bring that admonition into what we're doing, into how we're thinking, how we're feeling, how we're experiencing others? Because I was saying at the start, if you watch your thinking, there's so much knowing in it. Even in our of tomorrow sometimes they're so strong and definite oh it's going to be awful oh it's going to be wonderful or you meet someone and you know who they are not ready you're well established in liking or disliking and then the magic of human relationships how you meet them stimulates them to come forth in a certain way.

[16:43]

And then how delightful it is when you meet someone in a more spacious, open, unassuming way. And then to realize you can meet anyone or anything. Like I was teaching the retreat four weeks ago, and someone was talking about, and I think I mentioned it in the plants, opening up to the experience of their breakfast on a plate. Just like seeing it with that kind of not knowing, letting it just the impact. I'm so interested about how they don't know, not know, not know.

[17:51]

That's a huge difference, because the first two means they don't care. If there's a house in the middle of [...] the middle But then how to take the notion and let it be a point of entry. You know what I'm saying? Whether you say, I don't know, or you say, no knowing. And of course, in Chinese, there isn't a first personal first-person pronoun, that's not the way the language is constructed. So it would seem like not knowing is most accurate. So I would agree with that notion.

[18:54]

I think it's, you know, reflecting on the language and other things that would seem to be quite an appropriate way to think about it and translate it. how does it become a practice? How do we make it alive? How do we notice in relationship to who we are and what we are? Study that. We think So to let that amazement crack open the usual, to let that amazement refresh the moment, to let that amazement stimulate our momentary noticing

[20:11]

of where the dream that's going on through habituated consciousness is sort of seen through. Look at that person not retreating. There they were, sitting, [...] sitting. And then something as simple as here's breakfast. How amazing. In this moment, It's not my story of breakfast, it's breakfast. Maybe the amazing part is how difficult it seems for us. You know, how readily our mind can sort it all out and in a very persuasive and appropriate way say, well, everything's always changing and all this subjective response of two How can we fill it out?

[21:15]

And yet, a great deal of our time, we are utterly committed to acting as if we know. That amazing part. Yeah. I'm trying to use it with the interactions with people. I know she's really amazing. Yeah. And I'm just trying to not say, sometimes I'm trying to put you out and just sort of, you know, and see, you know, you know, I'm sitting there and eating, [...] eating You know, try to shout my head and make it go a certain way.

[22:23]

Yeah. Two or three times. We'll see. For me, I was sort of thinking about all this backwards. It was perhaps going to the actual state. But that simplifies the purpose. realizing I was wrong about something and had a great joy that I had made the subject probably kind of semi cynical but old enough and discovered that it was all wrong and I was making me so happy to be wrong I can't remember the details but it was mostly this and physical sensation, pleasure, and pain loss, and just feeling that the more possible reason I was, you know, kind of getting very great grief with what it was like.

[23:27]

It was the assumption. It seemed better. It's always, so seemingly, those who always acted, it kind of happened to that, but the first time was to pick up for it. Any other comment? I was moved by at the beginning of the Angus introduction. If you see one quarter, then you immediately visualize the other three. And what popped into my mind was, well, if you see one quarter, it could be octagon. It could be anything. And then now, to that, putting a box around the experience. When something comes up, when the interaction occurs, see, because of my past experience not being willing to accept this moment as brand new moment, see what's going to happen to just put a box around it and help.

[24:44]

And that's terribly defied to me. There's an interesting kind of tension between the introduction and the case. You know, in many ways you could argue that the pivot point of the case, the Cohen, is don't know. But the introduction is about being astute, you know, being astute in a conventional sense, you know, seeing smoke, No one going far. Seeing the horns, knowing the bull. And so that seeing one corner, it's a little bit like saying, and it comes from Chinese teaching. I think it's Confucius. And it's really saying being able to follow the form, the pattern of something.

[25:45]

So the whole introduction is about astuteness. And then the case is about not knowing. And so a little bit by implication, it's saying, this is not about being stupid. This is not about ignoring, not paying attention. Rather, about paying attention more than just the students. So that's the kind of one way to think about the setup of the intro at the koan. And also, you know, to look at the koan in a little more depth. So often it seems it's described, okay, well here's the emperor, He's kind of like the fall guy.

[26:53]

Emperor's a little clueless, or a lot clueless, and Bodhidharma's got it all figured out. You know? Emperor comes in and asks sort of a dumb question, you know? What's the highest meaning of the Holy Truth? Give me something to hold on to. Give me some special teaching. Or as in this translation that you've got, what's the first principle? What's the most important point? What's foundational? What's fundamental? In the process of practice. Or to consider that the emperor was himself a Buddhist scholar and he talks on Buddha, according to something that I read.

[27:56]

So he wasn't, you know, naive. This was a, you know, if you look at it from that way, this was, it made me say, from all the great Buddhist teachings, of which there are so many, you know, what's fundamental You know, when you look at them all and they're full array, what's the most important point of practice? So from that place, this is a powerful question. And from that place Bodhidharma's answer, it kind of started, you know? Without form, without living, vast emptiness.

[29:02]

Nothing sacred. It's like he confines the whole structure or implication of the embers. But still, each of us can explore. You can ask yourself, okay, what is foundational? What is fundamental? What's the most important point of practice? And am I doing it? And what am I doing? That's not what I'm doing. What am I doing? So when you're doing Zazen, is that it? And how would you do Zazen in a way that express the fundamental point or the first principle? So in a way, this is a powerful question that as practitioners, we are

[30:18]

I don't know if you can say, obliged to ask ourselves, but it's there challenging us. Sometimes I offer the question, what does practice ask of you? The same question, but getting close to that territory. What does practice ask of you? You know, so often we think, well, you know, we can turn it around and say, what do you want from practice, you know? But in a more exact way, what does it matter what you want from practice or don't want from practice? What is the fundamental point of practice? Is it to get you what you want or you don't want, you know? So to turn it around, you know, it's more like, what does practice ask of?

[31:23]

Why is it to take this opportunity and request and meet it? What does practice ask of you? And I like to offer that as a repeated question, because in a repeated question, you know, the response isn't the singularity, you know? It's not, oh, The answer is this. No, the response is multifaceted. The response is a multiple. And then you can ask, well, what's at the basis of all of them? So this is the emperor's question.

[32:30]

So, powerful. In some ways you can look at the structure of the kaans, because in the blue click records there's a hundred kaans, and this is how they work. And in some ways you could say, okay, here's the first kaan, and all the other kaans are illustrations or variations on a theme of the first God. And that our practice is indeed this continual response, response to the request. Bodhi Dharma said, no form, no binder, no limitation, and not sacred.

[33:47]

Sometimes in Zen, it says Zen is the teaching outside the script. So that way of saying, don't put your notion of practice in some small container. Don't sort of narrow it down. This is Zen practice. This is practice. This is what practice adds to me. This is what practice adds to me. There's no fixed form. There's no specific outcome. And there's no, within these parameters, it's the Baha'i, it's greater being.

[35:00]

So let's do it. As Dogen Zenji says in Did You Use Am I? He says, it's the unsurpassable of the unsurpassable. Did you get that? Or did I just sort of... No? Yes? Thank you. And then Bodhidharma's response. This kind of... put it in a box. This inexhaustible question, what does practice ask of you? What does practice ask of me? What is this engagement with this person ask of me? What is it to sit with this state of mind or this state of body?

[36:04]

What is it to practice with this situation in my life? What is it to practice with this world? Should I be dying in the occupy camp or following the needs of my everyday life? The Zen spirit is that this natural curiosity about being alive, this natural way that we're inquiring and exploring and discovering what it is to be alive, that it's an agent in awakening up. And then Bodhidharma qualifies it and says, and it's not about formulating some great dogma,

[37:16]

that then you can, you know, hold up as the sacred teaching. It's not that at all. It's not about holding on to some traditional teaching. That, oh, Shakta Muni said this, and so that's exactly it. It's something more immediate, something more alive, something that takes form each day. something that takes form each interaction. And then the emperor says, who is in front of me? And of course you can think, well it was a literal question, right? This guy had wandered in. made this extraordinary bold statement.

[38:19]

In a way, casting aside, you know, all these great Buddhist teachings that the emperor has been studying, and apparently the emperor had also made considerable efforts in helping to propagate the Dharma to, you know, built Dharma centers and temples. taught the dharma himself, I assume sponsored others to study it, teach it. Who are you? And then we can internalize it. What is the part of us that knows? What is the part of us that knows how to practice? What would you say about that question?

[39:30]

What would you say to her? I have something to say. Sorry, I didn't yet. I have something to say. Please. I think it's faith, and I think it's marvelous, actually. Marvelous? Yeah. Marvelous faith? Just faith, and faith is a marvelous thing. It's faith, and faith is marvelous. Yeah. It's faith. Because I don't think we know. When we try to think about it, we don't know. But if you look around, like everyone here, we have some drive to keep going forward. And I would like to think about this. This is associated in my mind, but I have a lot that either basically either you're having faith in driving forward or you're kind of retrogressing. Like, I don't think there's a neutral way at the end. You can't be like, I don't know about the separate thing. I'm not going to address it.

[40:30]

I have a little bit delusion and ignorance. I'm not going to think about those. Like, either you are living it, carrying forward the faith or your faith. In what regard? Could you say more about that figure? Actually, something I think of is actually an image my teacher set once. And it's this. I think it was whales. And when a whale gives birth to a baby, the baby starts swimming but sometimes has trouble and kind of just starts to fall. And the mother rail comes and swoops under and pushes it up. And then it goes along. And that will go on for a little while to get to the habit of it. And so something about that kind of trust.

[41:31]

Where's the trust there? That's hard to say. I mean, in one way, you could look at it very specifically and say, trust that the baby has. And then we've got human beings develop that. But I also think if you just sort of step back and look at the whole perspective, there's the nurturing of life that is going on, and there's a kind of trust that that will go forward. I would think that's both. Yeah. Remember, I was saying the word comes from which covers faith, trust, and confidence. It's a more common understanding than maybe how we would normally think of the English word.

[42:37]

And how he's interacting with Bodhidharma? Oh, his own monk. His own monk. Well, we ask after he leaves. Yes. And his own monk is kind of a winter. Yes. Yes. And then, just lastly, for me, that's probably called his powerful message. Yeah. Yeah. I think of it as two cards, you know. There's this primary, fundamental part, and then there's almost like commentary on that, or a consequence of that.

[43:47]

Yeah. Anyway, please. You wrote that question, the word that came in mind for what was instinct. Instinct? And the follow-up for what it was worth is, In memory, I had a practice discussion with Richard Gooch. He would mark that there were timed mornings when really getting up to go sit. But that he never felt regret when he did go sit. It was always there. And I felt the same. I skipped today. I never walked out and said, I don't think it will have to wait. Even when my brain was, you know, bouncing over set, I just never shut up, never even close to you, even a little bit quiet.

[44:53]

But it's still, I never regret it. Just some deep instinct that says, yes, this is right. similar thoughts, but just the difference. The truth is that we're unaccessible. There is something inside me that moves me along in practice and other things as well. It's unaccessible. It's moving me along. Since it's unaccessible, I don't try to open it. And in some respects, it could be failure and trust. You can get those things together. But what's a narrative to me is just something that moves around the inside of me. I can't really figure it out, but I can see it.

[46:03]

I can see how it works if it doesn't work. The gravity error, all the earth, and it's being a science system. You don't think this realization is not known to the conscious mind. There are times when responding to my day and I respond to something that I can do it. And I respond not from my history, not from my freedom. I mean, I guess I keep responding at home. But that's not the right word.

[47:05]

Because there, I don't want to give up, oh, it just doesn't matter. I don't want to respond. I follow up about, like, how do I, when responding in a way that is a portrait, but it feels like when I think about it, like, why am I doing it? Because I think this. I'm like, is it? It feels like when I ask myself, are you doing it because of all the solid things? Or are you doing it because this is what's happening right now? I thought maybe that because of what's happening right now, it feels like that's more appropriate. Can you see how even rather than to ask why are you doing this, to tune it to experiencing how it's coming into being, you know? In contrast to say, am I doing this?

[48:12]

because I'm afraid, to actually, in the midst of doing, feel fear. It's like, ah. It isn't the product of the cognition. It's the direct experience. And then this coin is saying, well, don't know. Don't have theories. Don't have knowing about it. experience it throughout. So the spirit of Zen is less about, well, why are you doing this? And more about, what's it like to be doing this? How is this experience? And then as we connect to that, it teaches it. As the Yogan said, it comes forward and confirms itself. What are my ideas about it?

[49:16]

The self goes forward and confirms the situation. Or the experience comes forward. So in a way the vast emptiness is about not told to God. So in the other collection of koans, Mu, which Mu is about sweep everything aside. Don't hold on to anything. Don't hold on to any thoughts, any ideas, any preoccupations. Sweep it aside. Sweep it aside. Sweep it aside. And then something comes forth. So this is called a different collection. It has a similar kind of feel good in this part. And then I also think it has... has this way of coaching us to stimulate our natural curiosity, you know?

[50:22]

We hear a sound and our mind thinks motorbike, you know? And then, dependent upon how educated you are on different makes of motorbike, maybe you think, well, BMW, you know? Didn't sound like Harley, you know? Or if you're not, you know, motorbike sufficient. You know, there's some way what we've learned about the world, you know. Seeing one corner, no three. Seeing smoke, no fire. It's there as an information bank. And it can be held so tightly. We're more in our story. And the world is not allowed in. The not knowing can crack the world open. It can make us more curious.

[51:23]

And the process of being in the midst of discovery becomes more alive for us. I was talking to someone quite recently and they've been in a relationship a long time and it's difficult at the moment. And we were talking about how The problem with a long-term relationship is you more than likely repeated certain patterns of relating. In repetition now, it's kind of a fixed assumption. Like pieces of theatre being rehearsed. I say black, you say white. I say, well, you're wrong. And you say, well, you're wrong that I'm upset and that you're upset. then we just have to say, what color is that? And we're both upset. We're so well chewed into our patterns.

[52:27]

But how not to get caught up in the pattern responses or the pattern assumptions, but to let it be, huh, what color is it? What is this moment? Who is this person in front of me right now? And to meet them directly, to let them speak. So we can think of the emperor as the great fool. Ah, that emperor, how clueless. He just needed all of his teachings. And then in the end, what does he say? No, I don't get it. And how easily you can turn the whole coin upside down.

[53:39]

And the emperor says, I don't claim to understand it. And then it becomes... Who is this before me? What way is there an identity of self in this moment? In the meditation at the start, how we can deconstruct the right time to deconstructing knowing the body, deconstructing knowing the breath. It's a very interesting thing to do because when you can really tune into that not knowing the body, you realize

[54:47]

kind of an assumption that makes it a convincing truth that there's a felt bindery to the body. Here's where my body ends and the rest of existence begins. When you close your eyes and pay close attention, it's not so easy to know where my, where me ends. And everything else begins. So that's that coin. And this coin, as I say, sets the stage for the whole coin collection. When we have two soul ceremonies. Usually it's just so that the person who's training to be a teacher, and then so they go through this training, and at the end of the training, they have a public exchange.

[56:04]

And they initiate the exchange by reading a card. And most of the time, they read this case. And then it's very interesting. They read this case, and then the questions follow on from there. In every ceremony, in every, you know, ceremonial question and answer is utterly unique. It's so different in how it unfolds from anyone else's. They take up the sin point. same question. The situation, that person's demeanor, that person's way of presenting with the Dharma comes forward.

[57:11]

Okay. Any questions or comments like that? Believe it or not, I was going to delve into Jiju Yuzamai, but I'm thinking maybe that would be a terrible thing to do. But here's my thought. It's sort of related to the Emperor's question. What is the fundamental teaching? You know, I'm thinking of Dogen Zenji as foundational teacher of Japanese Soto Zen. Even though there's a number of points in his teachings. This fascicle he wrote, it's contained within another fascicle, Bendowa, Endeavoring on the Way.

[58:12]

And then this section is called and we chatted every noon. Self-acknowledging and engaging samadhi. The continuous contact with what's arising as the expression of conditioned self and how that's engaged in a way that continually reveals the dharma. And if you think about it, that's what we're talking about. How some way of engaging the self that allows it to be an agent of waking up, rather than just simply that which we're constantly entranced by, struggling with, trying to overcome, trying to make it the way it ought to be,

[59:14]

according to our prescription, or something like that. You know? In this fascicle, in this fascicle, Dovan's talking about the continuous contact that lets that very intrigue of self be engaged with more like a sense of appreciation for how it reveals the Dharma. And at the key of it, to my mind, the key of it is he called, he brings forth a phrase that's translated into English as unconstructedness and stillness. And it has a lot to do with paying attention I'm building stories around, you know, very close to building dharmas don't know.

[60:23]

You're not building up stories. You're just staying in the middle of the experience and letting it happen. And then Dogen is wonderful, poetic, and lyrical, and well-educated in a dharmic sense way. You know, all the Buddhists uphold this teaching. The teaching of sitting upright in the midst of this samadhi. It is continuous contact with what's going on. When you do this, the language he uses, it expresses the Buddhist seal in the freedom. It expresses the Buddhas.

[61:27]

And then he goes on and he says, and the heart of this is unconstructed and still this. And he says, and even all the Buddhas and all the ancestors and all the reference cannot understand it. But I think that's enough of that. What I'd like to do with the rest of our is... Well, you could ask me with questions like that. I could see if I have a response to any of them. Or I could talk a little bit more about some of the columns that follow on from that one, from Bodie Garnold in a tradition of This collection. What's the most fruitful question you could ask yourself right now about practice?

[62:34]

What's the question you could ask yourself that makes you go, hmm, yes. That question... is very alive. Great. What is struggling and what is ease? Okay. Anyone have a response? What is struggling and what is ease? Was that another question or was that a response to that? What does it feel like? What does it feel like? Anyone else got a question?

[63:36]

For themselves? The question you have for yourself is, is the one that... is the most alive, the most potent. How can I trust myself if I know the things that are arising are caused by my conditioned existence? How can I trust myself if I know the things that are arising are caused by my conditioned existence? Anyone got a response? shifts in self-talk.

[64:39]

When you feel more peace, you look back. Feel for the shift in that self-talk. Trying to notice a sense of ease. In the noticing You discover your true self. In the noticing you discover your true self. It feels... Thank you. Anyone else with a question? Is studying the Dharma necessary for the path to enlightenment? Is studying the Dharma necessary for the path to enlightenment?

[65:55]

Anyone have an answer? I studied there. There is, in some respects, there's talk in literature about instant awareness. Hold it right there. Subtle point. There's a way in which we can ask a question. It's like, tell me what you think. Or we can ask the very same question that's pointing deeper than the person's thoughts. So wouldn't you ask the question again pointing deeper than the person's thoughts.

[67:01]

Maybe it's not a change of words. Maybe it's change. What plants do you know about studies? We think of this, study. What is that? Study overall, go on the street, study people. Yeah, yeah. So maybe the question just is, what is study? In my question, I would make a difference to the that when you hear it, it's what she said. And we open ourselves. And this too, especially with the comprehend stability opens our mind, possibly.

[68:10]

But sometimes when I have a skid-short feeling, that to be kind of fully aware of, maybe I don't know quite what you like, fully aware of this something that you might just relax into. You might just accept that it might hit me. Or something. And as much as I enjoy the stuff, That was way too many words. So I'll ask you again, and it's like... We can say, oh, here's a question.

[69:11]

Tell me your ideas about it. Or we can say, here's a question. Answer it from what your practice has taught you. You know what I mean? Well, I'm sort of trying to elucidate the different way we can respond to the situation. We all know what the word study is about. You study things. You read facts and you learn and then you have knowledge. That's the conventional meaning of the word, right? We know that. But then from the point of view of practice, there's a different question. What is study in the context of practice? What is knowing in the context of practice?

[70:16]

Because here's this tension between knowing and not knowing. What is that kind of study? What is the study that happens through the activity of what? That one we don't answer from. some intellectual knowledge we answer from what practice has revealed. So that was a question she was asked. The study here is what we study as intrinsically a study itself as well. within the question is wisdom, is knowledge.

[71:31]

It's like we can say, what color is the tatami? And the question brings forth an engagement. I don't like that. Yes, sorry. Question? Great. I'm wondering if this would have done this encounter The first, what is the first test of emptiness, not boldness. And when he set up, the emperor did not grasp the meaning.

[72:36]

The emperor had grasp the initial meaning. Tell me more, where were you at this view? And a further grasp to you, so that you can use it. Well, what is it? then that I see it where these all depended horizons. Now, what about this? Take the same question. Because you are the emperor, and you are Bodhidharma, and this question that you're bringing forth is representative of your own exploration of practice. Yes. Within that, how would you put forth the question? How would I rest after this?

[73:50]

If this is the ultimate principle? acting as a crowd. Yeah. Okay, who's gonna answer that? There's a quote that I like, something like, watch the trees, or it's come and land on them. Okay, now, this time, step aside, there's a quote that I'd like. Ezra Pines said, if you have a good response, don't borrow it.

[74:59]

Steal it. You know, like, own it. You know? This is the response you offer. Own it. You know? And say, well, you know, I heard somebody say once, you know, it wasn't me that said it, let's be clear. I'm not owning this. This is somebody like... Blame somebody else for this. I'm just kind of a casual bystander. Well, what if you're right there in the midst of this. The emperor's asking, what's the fundamental point? What's the first principle? And it Oh, but you're a wonderful teacher of the tree.

[76:02]

The tree doesn't hold on to its leaves. The cautious end saying is, the dragons roar in the willow tree. Just think, from that place, a profound teaching comes forth. Dragons roar, that's kind of a poetic way to say it. Anyone else got a question?

[77:08]

You don't have to answer this, because it's kind of a discussion. I'm going to get somebody else to answer it. I'm just a broker here. This is a whole new concept. Well, I struggled with... A matchmaker, matching questions to answers. Yeah, you were. Yeah. The discussion that... You tried to stimulate the discussion, Mark, I think it was the second class, about the article that was in the journal, and the most comment you got was, I really like that this was in a journal, and... but there was a million comment on the content of it. And the content was about the global Japanese forms of Zen, I think, and Western Zen, and how he, this author, interpreted that and spoke about that.

[78:31]

And you said Well, I don't agree with him completely, but I thought it was a good argument. And I think, well, what did you agree with? That would have been interesting to me. But that's your opinion, and it's probably not. So how can that be on a live question now that both relates to your practice and my practice? I still struggle with being out. Not because. How? How? Right now. How can that be in a live question? Maybe it relates a little bit to his question about study. And I think the study of self and the study of the mind.

[79:35]

But how about your question? How do I need the resistance that I feel towards the formality I mean, that's part of my conditioned response to being the last Catholic at the age of six. You don't have to excuse or explain the question. How do I meet the resistance? I feel towards the formality of Buddha. All that's rigmarole.

[80:44]

Okay, who wants to answer that? Experience the resistance. Experience the resistance. I had a little bath and sometimes I ask myself, what else would I do right now? And I don't think that in a silly way. Well, if we come into a room for a minute and have a Zen talk, well, we have to work on it in some way. How would we do it? And then you could think, and maybe you're a Zen teacher, and we'll do it that way.

[81:46]

You know what I mean? But it's just, it kind of jolts you out to see if you have to do something. For me, it worked that way. Yes. So what I was trying to illustrate in life and actualize in the last while of Of course we have questions. And our questions can stimulate our opinions, our judgments, or they can, in a very interesting way, do something else. It's always like they can challenge us to see where we're at. What's this question? It's coming up. What's at the heart of it? It's like the questions inviting us back, almost like inviting us back into our own being.

[82:58]

And in that process, something about how it's coming forth for us is revealed. And the question, when it's held in that way, in that heartfelt way, it stimulates curiosity. It stimulates something. Even if in that moment there isn't an answer. Sometimes that's marvelously provocative. There's a heartfelt question and there isn't an answer. So sometimes it's very helpful and clarifying to say, I don't know.

[84:04]

Sometimes you're wrestling with something in your life and then you think, hmm. I don't know. Okay, that's clear. Glad we cleared that up. And in the realm of practice, if I don't know, hopefully stimulating curiosity, rather than saying, oh, well, I'll have to substitute some idea to fill that gap, to close the loop. So I can reassure myself I do know. How about you don't? How about you just get more curious? Get more open to what's going on. So this way of our inquiry drawing us in. What's going on? How do I deal with my resistance to the worms?

[85:13]

I'll do this. What a wonderful question. I'll just sleepwalk through those worms. I'll avoid the question because it's a little inconvenient. rather just comply rather than have to deal with it. So sometimes our question will be like that, but it'll take us to an edge. Okay, this question's asked me to be authentic. What about, to the spirit of Zen, you know, more like that authentic edge and almost nothing to do about yes and you should be complying to something so that's it we're done thank you for that I wasn't I wasn't

[86:36]

expecting that. I thought it was great. You know, in teaching this class, what I was endeavoring along the way was, there's fundamental teachings to practice. is fundamental teaching about a weapon. The practical, pragmatic propositions that stimulated support. And it draws you into your own being. And then there's a way in which engagement in our lives is taking the show on the road. And it might use as a wonderful theory if it isn't integrated into how you're being, you're like, you know?

[87:40]

And this marvelous human capacity we have for inquiry, you know? And we can be curious, we can be stimulated, you know? And something about trusting question that arises for you, This very mind, this Buddha, this very question is coming from a sincere place of practice. How do we trust that within ourselves and let it blossom? Rather than think, oh, I need to get someone to tell me the right answer. It's that we call that grand theft.

[88:43]

Someone stealing your own inquiry, your own knowing. You're stealing it wrong, you're saying, I have the answer. Thank you very much. For more information, please visit sfcc.org and click Giving. May we all fully enjoy the Dharma.

[89:29]

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