Good evening, everyone. And welcome to this Thursday evening meditation and Dharmat. I'm happy to be here tonight. My name is Tova Green. For those of you who don't know me, I'm a resident priest at San Francisco Zen Center. And I'll be leading the meditation and giving a dharmat tonight. So if anyone's here for the first time, just to let you know, I'll give some instruction, some instruction in Zen meditation, and then we will sit for about 25 minutes. And after that, I'll... give a talk, no longer than 15 minutes, and we'll have time to share our experiences, questions, and talk together for the last part of the hour.

[04:03]

So why don't we begin? I'll invite you to find a comfortable sitting position, a position where you're If you're sitting in a chair where your feet are both planted on the floor, and you may want to really notice the point of contact between your feet and the floor. If you're seated on a cushion, you may want to notice the points of contact between your sit bones and your cushion. your knees and whatever they're resting on. And to find a position that's both upright and relaxed. In particular, you may want to relax your shoulders.

[05:12]

We often carry a lot of tension in our shoulders. You can rest your palms on your thighs if that's comfortable, or we often sit with our hands in a, called a mudra, a hand position where the right palm is up, the left palm on top of that, the thumb tips touch lightly, and your pinkies rest just below your navel. You may want to notice your breathing, either the sensation of air coming in through your nostril as you inhale and leaving as you exhale, or the rising and falling of your belly as you breathe in and out.

[06:19]

And just notice how your body is feeling tonight, whether you're warm or cool, tired or full of energy. whether any places in your body are tense. And you may want to... Meditate with your eyes open.

[07:26]

Soft focus, cast down, or if you prefer and you're used to sitting with your eyes closed, that's fine. And then just notice what you're aware of moment to moment, whether it's physical sensations, including sounds, perhaps tastes, any emotions you may be experiencing, noticing where in your body you may be experiencing them, and also noticing thoughts as they arise and perhaps change.

[08:51]

So I'm going to ring a bell three times. I may say a few more words after the bell rings, but initially see if you can hear the vibration of the bell until it is very faint. you find that your mind is very active you may want to return to a physical sensation like your feet on the floor or your sit bones on the cushion or your breath

[10:57]

Thank you. So take your time coming back to your space, your living space, workspace, wherever you are.

[31:31]

So for those of you who joined after we began during the meditation, I'll reintroduce myself. My name is Tova Green. I live and work at City Center, San Francisco Zen Center's urban temple. And I am really happy to be here tonight. I've listened to a number of David Starmetz over the past few months and offered to be one of the speakers on Thursday because I appreciate this opportunity to meet with you less formally than in a real Dharma talk, and I don't mean real, but full-length Dharma talk, and offer some teachings and have a conversation.

[32:46]

So my theme tonight, you could say, is deep listening. And I'm going to talk about what some of the qualities of deep listening are from my perspective. I'm going to tell a story about two Dharma friends who lived a few centuries ago and invite you to reflect on your experience of being listened to and of listening to others as I speak. So many of you may have heard of the awakened being, the bodhisattva, Avalokitesvara, or Kuan Yin. And Avalokitesvara in Sanskrit means hearer of the cries of the world.

[33:48]

So Kuan Yin is known for... Sometimes Kuan Yin is referred to as him, sometimes her. So why don't we can use they for tonight? So Avalokiteshvara is often depicted in statues as having multiple hands and arms. And the saying is there are a thousand, a thousand hands and arms. each one with a different tool, because Avalokiteshvara or Kuan Yin meets the prize of the world, meets what they hear with a response, a skillful response, and it will be different for different situations. So there is a teaching story that I have loved for a long time.

[34:49]

that has to do with two Dharma friends, Yunnan and Daowu. They were actually Dharma brothers, you could say. They had the same root teacher, and they lived in the ninth century in China, and they had many conversations. Some of them had been preserved for us to enjoy, and this one is called The Hands and Eyes of the Bodhisattva of Great Compassion. And so this is the interchange, and I'm going to refer to them as Yunyen and Dao Wu. So I'm going to just refer to them as Yen and Wu. So Yen who was a slightly newer student.

[35:51]

And Wu, although they were Dharma brothers, Wu said to have been, you could say, senior to Yen. So Yen asked, what does the bodhisattva of great compassion do with so many hands and eyes? And Wu replied, it's like looking back for a pillow. in the night. And Yen said, I understand. Then Wu asked him, how do you understand it? And Yen said, it's like all over the body are hands and eyes. And then Wu said, well, you have said quite a bit there, but it's only 80%. And then, of course, Yan was curious and asked, well, what do you say, elder brother?

[36:57]

And Wu said, throughout the body, hands and eyes. So what does that mean to listen with every cell, to listen throughout the body? How does that translate to our experience of deep listening? And, you know, often I think we hear not only when we listen to someone, we're, I'll say I rather than we. When I listen to someone, I try to pay attention to Not only to the words, but to their voice quality, to their facial expression, to what I can notice in their body.

[38:03]

Are they tense? Are they relaxed? Are they looking at me? Are they looking down? Are they looking away? That's interesting because people are often more comfortable talking when they're not looking. Eye to eye, I've noticed. And in some cultures, like in Japan, it's actually considered rude to look at someone directly when you're talking to them. And so there are different maybe cultural norms around how we listen, how we converse. But, you know, listening is... fully paying attention to the person that you're with, and not trying to plan your response while you're listening, just being fully present with what you're hearing, and realizing on some level that you and the person you're talking with are deeply connected.

[39:19]

because we are all interconnected, and we may have very different ways of expressing ourselves and different opinions about things, but when we're listening, it's really important to remember that connection, especially if you're listening to someone with whom you might disagree about something, or, yeah, or be... So another phrase that I really appreciate about listening is from the poet Naomi Shihab Nye. She talks about words under the words. Sometimes the words someone's saying and what they're expressing may be at odds, may feel that you're getting a different message from a person's facial expression or physical expression. stance than the words that they're saying, or that the words that they're saying may not be all the words there are.

[40:26]

When we talk about speaking truthfully, sometimes we're not even fully aware of our own truth, but there may be things that we're not saying because we're not comfortable saying them, or we may not feel enough trust in the person we're speaking with to share all of what our truth is in a given moment. So one thing I feel that's really helpful with listening is trying to approach other people with openness and curiosity and what Suzuki Roshi called beginner's mind. Even if it's someone I know very well, Can I meet that person freshly and not think I know what they're going to say or what their opinion about something is going to be?

[41:27]

Because it might be different this time. You know, even if you've heard them say it many times, it might be different. So if you can keep an open mind, that can be really helpful. And sometimes, you know, many times, I think, you know, you might ask, well, what... can get in the way of an open mind. And I think our past conditioning, our opinions or preferences, our unconscious bias may lead us to have some ideas about a person before we even hear them speak. And we may be drawn to some people and have some aversion to other people we don't know based on, often it's our past conditioning. And a conversation can often help break through that idea of who someone is.

[42:34]

I don't know how many of you have come to city center for dinner. We're not able to have our community share meals with us now due to sheltering in place but in the past people were very welcome to come to dinner after zazen or before a class and i would try to make it a practice to sit with somebody i didn't know and just find a way to start a conversation and often, almost always, in fact, I would find some thread of common interest or some experience that we could share and resonate with. And, of course, it may be easier to sit with people we already know. And, you know, I think that can feel very unwelcoming to someone who's

[43:39]

coming for the first time and so you have no people in the community. But, you know, I think that you may think about how you might apply that to your own life. When is it that you find it's harder to speak with someone you're meeting for the first time or someone you might not feel drawn to as opposed to someone you know really well and are more comfortable with, you have a history with So as you're listening, I wonder if you might take a moment and just think about a time when you have felt deeply listened to by someone. And how does that feel or how did that feel in your body as you think about that time? How do you feel now?

[44:40]

in your body. Just try to breathe with that for a breath or two. And then conversely, think of a time when you felt you have not been heard, you've not been listened to. And how does that feel in your body? And you may also think about a time when you felt you didn't listen to someone. You couldn't, for whatever reason, listen to someone fully. And how does that feel in your body?

[45:41]

So I think those are my comments for tonight. And what I'd like to do is open the space for discussion. And you'll see there's in your chat box, the person who's supporting this talk, Barbara, put a little note that if you want to ask a question or make a comment, I would actually say my question for you is is if you have any thoughts about deep listening and or anything else that's coming up in your practice, you're welcome to bring up a question or make a comment about something that you're practicing with that doesn't have anything to do with what I spoke about tonight. So if you go to the bottom of your screen, you'll see participants.

[46:42]

And if you click on that, there's an opportunity to raise your hand, and it'll show as a little blue hand, and then I will ask Barbara to unmute you. So I'm going to open up the floor. So are there any responses or anything coming up in your practice that you would like to bring up? So something happened and I can't see you all.

[47:51]

So I don't see any questions coming up or any comments. So I'm wondering if any of you might want to share an experience of being listened to. or of not being listened to that would. Toba, do you see Thomas has his hand raised? I don't see it. Maybe you need to click on your participants button. I did, but I'm having trouble seeing the room, the Zoom room.

[48:58]

All I see is a list of participants right now. Oh, now I'm back. Okay. But I don't see. So Thomas has his hand raised and he's unmuted. Great. So Thomas, please... It's very hard to hear you, Thomas. Let me speak up. Let me see. That's better. That's better. Yeah. It's kind of COVID. We're doing a lot of listening. It's still hard to hear. You still can't hear me? Let me try this. I'm going to try something. I'm not. Sorry. I think I... Is this better? Yes.

[50:00]

Yeah, so I was using a Bluetooth speaker. That was the thing. In this time of COVID, I feel we have a lot more information, both sound and... I know you're fading. In this time of COVID, we have a lot more... A lot more information coming from that sound. well, as you know. And being able to disseminate through audio and video that's coming off at us becomes difficult to really listen in the moment. That's what I wanted to share. Thank you. So you're saying... In this time of COVID-19, there's a lot more audio and video coming at us. And yeah, I think it is difficult to be spending so much time on screens and not to be able in many cases to actually have a conversation with a person face-to-face.

[51:14]

We just see this image on screen and probably many of us are experiencing that and it's harder. to have that sense of connection when we're seeing people on screens. I would say that it's true. You mentioned listening in the moment. Listening in the moment reminded me that in the moment of sound, of receiving the sound, whether it's music, You mentioned that you shouldn't begin to construct your answer. You should continue listening throughout. Yes. I thought that was very heartfelt for me in this particular moment. Thank you. I appreciate that advice.

[52:16]

As a big music fan, I listen in the moment. And if I can appreciate... the sound, whatever it is in the moment, I definitely enjoy it a lot more and it becomes timeless like Zen. I really feel sound and Zen are very, very much the same thing for me. Thank you. Did everyone hear that? Thank you. Thomas was saying about that listening in the moment and is also the way he listens to music and that sound and Zen have a lot in common. But listening in the moment rather than, you know, anticipating what someone's going to say or planning your response can help you be more fully present in a conversation.

[53:17]

So, oh, Anne. That's her hand raised. Barbara? Yes. Can you hear me? Yes. Yeah. I really like that. It's like listening to music. I think that's really good. It's nice. Very nice. I would add that, you know, when I listen, I'm looking at, you know, hopefully I have a visual. So I'm I'm looking at everything, like their body language and, you know, just facial expressions, even micro expressions. You can get a lot of stuff from that. And I think I can be a really good listener. And because, I mean, I'm a teacher and I do special ed. And I have to, like, kind of try to understand this whole person. And, you know, and also just with friends. I just have that quality. I've been able to do it. But, you know, if I'm too... fritzed out myself. I can't do it. But in terms of how it feels, I mean, I know how it feels when I'm really listened to by a person.

[54:33]

And then when I'm not, it's just awful. It's like they don't see you. You know what I mean? It's like you're not there or something. And it's just really alienating. You know? It's really unpleasant, actually. So, yeah, I would say that. Thank you. And yeah, it can be very painful and not to feel seen or heard, particularly a very painful experience. Thank you, Anne. So I see two hands. Is that how you pronounce your name? It's Gi, yes. Thank you. Thank you so much for the talk. I also love what Thomas said. I'm really passionate about music as well.

[55:35]

I actually just noticed it now that Thomas said it, actually, that the way that I listen to music in the moment and how much I struggle to listen in the moment to people, to words, if that makes sense. I think that my biggest struggle especially when it's a difficult conversation, is the emotions that might immediately come up. And then I noticed that it's that emotional reaction that sort of creates that impulse to start creating some kind of response instead of... And then I find myself, luckily now that I've been listening more and trying to... trying to listen better fully, I catch myself formulating my answers. So I sort of stop in the middle and try to begin listening again. But I feel like personally that is my biggest struggle, especially when it's something that I feel like sometimes we're kind of in a position now, or at least I feel myself in a position where there's some things that you simply feel differently that are very hard to hear, opinions that are very hard to hear.

[56:49]

And I really struggle with the emotions. I feel like that's what makes me immediately formulate a response. The moment I feel, sometimes you're just like, oh, you know, I don't know how to explain myself very well, but I feel like that is what I struggle most with and I'm trying to work on my side because I know how important it is to feel listened and hearing how how bad it is to not be listened to. I don't want to be that person, if that makes sense, regardless of the reason. I don't want to be causing that. You know, so that's my question is sort of dealing with the emotions in the midst of the conversations, especially when it's something so difficult and contrary maybe to beliefs and those sort of things. I think it's really thank you very much for the question. I think it's helpful to It's really helpful to notice those emotions in your experience as you're listening and whatever they are, whether it's anger or sadness or whatever, you know.

[58:00]

And sometimes to just take a breath, you know, especially if you're having a conversation with someone who's perhaps saying something you disagree with and you don't. So. I find noticing how I'm feeling, maybe taking a breath, and then sometimes just asking a question. What led you to think that? Or what's your experience? That can help perhaps create greater understanding. Yeah. I would also say if you find yourself listening and then spacing out, just when you notice that, it's like with meditation, when you find yourself lost in thought, come back to the breath. So in a conversation, you can keep coming back and noticing when it's hard.

[59:03]

And then sometimes it is because you have strong emotions. And so it's all part of tuning into yourself as you're tuning into the other person. Thank you, Ghee. So I see Carol has her hand up. Hi. Hi. I've unmuted you, or maybe Barbara did. Are you there, Carol? Yeah, I'm here. Okay. Okay, good. So I'll just be brief. This is not a question. This is just a... you said to suggest, to mention when I felt not listened to. And it was recent and it was very, very strongly I felt not listened to. And I think I understand why. I'm half Italian. Sicilian, Italian. I grew up born and bred in Brooklyn. I'm used to being sort of passionate, maybe you might say, or, you know, I express myself honestly, I tend to.

[60:08]

And I lived in a Zen Center for the last 20 years in Los Angeles. And I'm used to talking to people kind of openly. And here I am in Kansas City. And I was at an organizational meeting of a group that I am now affiliated with. I recently moved here and talking about their endowment. And I'm saying, well, you have to have it socially. You must have it socially responsibly invested. You know, like that's a given, right? Like, why would you think of anything else? And people were just like, okay, well, that's interesting. Now let's move on. I mean, it was like no response, like blank faces. And I think... I think, thinking about it, I think it's a cultural difference. I think it's really just a Midwestern thing that I'm not used to, because I tend to be more animated than perhaps other people around. Anyway, that situation was really, it caused me some, what, why don't they, no response, nobody's even saying anything. But I've had time to assimilate it, and I think there are cultural differences, which I'm, first time in the Midwest, and so I've just...

[61:13]

wanted to say how I did felt, felt very unpleasant not to be listened to, but I've been assimilating it and trying to understand it and, and approaching it not quite as dramatically as I had. I have to, people are conflict averse or whatever. And so I have to think, you know, how I can approach it differently, but I want to say some, that's all. Well, thank you. But I'm also thinking, you know, you're moving from one culture to another in a way. Absolutely. Yeah. You may expect that. People have the same values as you around such things as investing. And they don't. So, you know, maybe to approach it with curiosity. What do you do with your investments? Or, you know, have you ever thought about? Rather than, of course, you would. Yeah, right. I was like, of course, right. Thank you, Toby. Curiosity is much better. Yeah. Okay. Welcome. Are there any other questions? It's 6.30, and I think it's soon time to stop.

[62:16]

I don't see any hands raised, but I'm not seeing everybody. There are two screens. I don't see any hands raised. So I just realized, and I'm sorry that I didn't ask you about this, Anne, and Guy, and Thomas. What kind of music do you listen to? It's one of the things that I truly love music myself. And maybe there, I don't know if you want to just say that before we leave tonight. Is it you like? Thomas? Go ahead, go ahead. Oh, I don't know. It's not, it's kind of embarrassing. But I really like alternative rock. And I listen to a channel on SiriusXM, Alt Nation. But that's what I'm listening to. Classical makes me sad.

[63:16]

So in my daily life, I listen to Alt Rock. Thank you. Nothing to be embarrassed about. We all have different kinds of music that we love. Yeah, Aqib, what about you? I mean, it's a very difficult question to answer. Personally, to me, I feel like I... transition almost through phases of what I listen to, everything from bluegrass, to a lot of jazz, to more current mainstream music sometimes, depending on it. So it really fluctuates. I find little pockets in different genres that I really love. I find myself drawn to composers and artists more than genres a lot of the time. not a very clear answer but okay and i see thomas has his hand up and then i think we'll um unmute and i'll say good night tonight hard to hear you thomas

[64:33]

what's going to be sung. Because then, most of my friends say, how can you go out at night with music after opening? Well, I think it's not normal. I don't have to think what the next note is and what the last note was. It's jazz, it's improvisational, but it's also improvisational jazz. Thank you. So, Barbara, can you unmute everybody? I already did. You did? Okay. So, good night and thank you for being here. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you all for your attention. Thanks. I'm sorry I didn't have my video on. This is Carol Schmidt. I'm sorry I didn't have my video on. I know. But I'm here now.

[65:38]

I want to say hi to Evelyn. Nice to see you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Bye, Tova. Bye-bye. Good night, everybody. Bye. Thank you. Thanks for tuning in tonight.

[65:58]

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