Good evening. That's the thing about doing Dharma talks on Zoom is that you sometimes have to leap down off the seat and adjust something or hit a button on your screen. It's a new thing and there's no real well-defined protocol for it. Here we are. Since we're here in this place, in this time with requisite comforts and discomforts, strangeness of meeting in this both miraculous and very strange way.

[01:14]

I thought I'd talk about a particular koan due to Dongshan. So the koan goes like this. you know, Dengshan and his monks were in the Dharma Hall having a discussion that probably started just about like this, only, you know, with Dengshan giving the talk, which would have been probably way better. And my feeling about it is it was probably the middle of summer. And I don't know, but I'd be willing to bet that where the Dongshan's place, it was hot in the summer.

[02:20]

And so a monk, you know, stands up, wipes the sweat from his brow and says, teacher, when the heat comes in the summer and the cold comes in the winter, What should I do? And Dongshan says, well, why don't you just go to the place where there's no heat or cold? Maybe the monk thought, wow, there's a place where there's no heat or cold. Call my travel agent. But he asked, he said, so what's the place where there's no heat or cold? And Dongshan says, hmm. When the heat comes, the heat kills you. And when the cold comes, the cold kills you. When the heat comes, the heat kills you. When the cold comes, the cold kills you. So Dongshan, I don't remember his original name.

[03:32]

Dongshan simply means, East Mountain. It was the name of the mountain where he was the abbot. But what they say about him is that he started out early in monastic life. He was taking a sort of early course in in buddhist liturgy when he was a kid and the the teacher had them all chanting the heart sutra and and he the end of the chanting he speaks up and he says you know in the heart sutra it says here um no eyes no nose no tongue no body no mind i'm pretty sure i have a have eyes and a nose and a tongue

[04:35]

and a body um and the teacher was totally flabbergasted and didn't know what to say but he kind of called up dungshan's parents and said hey you know um he might do well in a monastery and so after a while he was sent off to a monastery and he he studied in various places um I think I could be wrong about this, but I think he was at Yashan, and he decided to take his leave, I think kind of in discouragement because he felt like he wasn't progressing as a student. And as he was leaving, he asked his teacher, he said, please, if someone asks me about your teaching, what should I say?

[05:39]

And this teacher said, say just this is it. And Dongshan didn't understand. But he left and he was walking and as monks in the, in those days did walking a long way across China to go to some other temple. And at one point he was crossing a stream and he looked down and he saw his reflection and he had this moment where he understood what his teacher had been saying and woke up in this really sudden and remarkable way. And afterwards, he wrote a poem and sent it to his teacher. And it went something like this. It said, avoid seeking elsewhere.

[06:44]

That's far from the self. Now I travel alone. I meet it everywhere. It is exactly me. I am not it. We must understand thus to experience thusness. I meet it everywhere. It is exactly me. I am not it. So in this case, the koan, Dengshan's question about the Heart Sutra, his encounter with his teacher, and the poem he wrote after he woke up really are all pointing at some ways the same thing.

[08:05]

There are these two modes of experience or engagement that are continuously operating in the body and mind. And they're called various things in the Buddhist literature. So they're kind of referred to early on as the two truths. There's the two truths doctrine. in English we use a translation I think of Sanskrit terms for them that are usually translated as the relative and the absolute Dongshan referred to them in a later document that he wrote as the kind of the crooked and the straight.

[09:19]

And Suzuki Roshi famously said something like, everyday mind and big mind. But they're kind of the fundamental components of our experience. And the... you know, everyday mind, the one we're most familiar with, is concerned with, and the one, I guess, more specifically, that we're the most capable of being familiar with, is concerned with, you know, interestingly enough, largely with memory, in some ways, with engaging with experience in a way that uses memory in various ways to form generalizations, categories, to reach conclusions and in a way that's peculiar

[10:46]

to construct pictures of the future that are based on, I think peculiar in some ways to humans, construct pictures of the future that are based on memories of the past extrapolated in some way that we know how to do and sort of in some ways have a gift for. And all of this in the service of putting together a model for the world and a model for the self situated in the world that we can work with skillfully to do the things that humans do, to get around in the world without bumping into things. Pretty much most animals can do that. Some animals are better at it than others. To to form rich and complex social networks on a also multi-layered social networks on a bunch of different scales that in which we participate to survive acquire resources connect with others in various ways and so on and so forth

[12:14]

That's what we do. And everyday mind is the mind that brings forth the capacities that we use to engage in all of that activity. And it's easy to kind of speak dismissively of everyday mind. Oh, it's so everyday. But actually, we wouldn't be human if we didn't have it. we'd be something else lord only knows what we wouldn't be here doing this now if it wasn't for everyday mind we wouldn't have zoom to do it with either so you know let's let's have a quiet but unmistakable cheer for everyday mind The other mode of engagement, big mind, the absolute, the straight, has a very, very different flavor.

[13:27]

It meets the world, experiences the world, takes in the world in a way that it's worth pointing out is still deeply conditioned, okay? because it's conditioned by our physiology, by the actual nature of our sensory hardware and the way in which the information from that sensory hardware gets turned into sensation, perception, and so on. It's also conditioned fundamentally by the laws of physics and the accidents of cosmology, right? Our experience of the world would be radically different if those things were even a little bit different.

[14:34]

We're formed by the world in this very specific way. We're conditioned by the world in this very specific way from the ground up. But nonetheless, this other mode has a lot less of the categorization, generalization, clinging to consistency and persistence, and all the rest of that sort of thing that characterizes everyday cognition or self-construction, the everyday self-construction. It has a very different flavor. And more subtly, the emotional and the kind of feeling tones that underlie it are

[15:35]

are very different than those that underlie everyday cognition. The narratives that underlie everyday cognition always have a kind of emotional undercurrent that is designed to to push us to conclusions, to push us to action, to push us to the next logical thought in some sequence, et cetera, too. The other mode doesn't have so much of that. It has something else. Maybe we can talk about it a bit later. So... That's kind of how we're put together.

[16:40]

And as much as we should all be willing to cheer on everyday cognition, it's also that the everyday cognition and the suffering that goes along with it that arises directly out of it, out of the self-construction, self-reification, and attachment that comes along with it, are the source of suffering as recognized by the Buddha. They're also the source of the vast bulk of our human activity, but they're fundamentally the source of that suffering. if we want to be free, there needs to be another way of meeting the world, of holding our experience that allows for that freedom.

[17:53]

And the fundamental proposition is that that mode, that other way of meeting and holding the world is always present with us. It's just that we kind of don't see it um that's kind of what the the buddha said in the mahayana formulation in any case when he woke up he said oh look at that we all have um the we all have awakened mind we just don't see it because we're preoccupied with what well being a self um uh planning our world domination um So the great thing is that we can all experience this directly through practice. That's the request of Zazen, the fundamental request of Zazen is to sit in the middle of

[19:05]

our actual everyday life and the everyday cognition that goes along with it. And to settle, to soften, to let go of habitual preoccupation, patterns of thought, patterns of memory and so on, just to let them come and go to the point where this other mode of being, other mode of engagement rises into our awareness and shows itself. And then after that, to deepen and broaden our exploration of that of the relationship between those two modes of being such that in the end, what looked like a barrier between them, this sense that I can be so tangled up in planning and scheming or arguing with my least favorite colleague at work or

[20:32]

um worrying about the cold that um that that other mode of being with its sort of softer broader engagement is inaccessible but actually that's not true it's not it's not inaccessible that inaccessibility is an illusion um and in some ways kind of a convenience um the the everyday mind wants to run the show because that's the way it wants to work it doesn't actually have to be that way. So fundamentally pointing back to the koan, and maybe obliquely referencing another koan, there's always someone who's not cold. There's always someone for whom that experience of cold is just itself without the garnish that we invariably add onto it when we say, sensation, perception, mental formation, and consciousness.

[21:37]

Hiding in there is this complex process of attaching recognition, stories, aversions, thoughts of escape, et cetera, to a sensation like cold. there's always one who's not cold or as Dengshan said, there's always a place where there's no heater cold. And the gateway, the entry there is to allow the experience to register so directly and with so little complication that it just registers itself without the window dressing. And that maybe the window dressing just registers as window dressing and is held lightly and where it's possible to just let it go.

[22:50]

Of course, if you're If your body is experiencing cold and you ignore it, then after a while, you might get really cold. So I had this experience once. I'd never gone skiing in New England, and I was living at a boarding school, and I didn't really have any ski equipment at all. But some friends of mine invited me to go skiing. And I wasn't a particularly good skier, but I thought, great, so I'll get to do this, and I'll get to hang out with these people, and that will make my life good. And so I went up, and they took me through the process of renting some skis. But I was really kind of embarrassed and shy and so on. And so when they said, well, we should rent you a parka, I was like, oh, no, I have a jacket.

[23:54]

well we should rent you some of these pants and I was like oh no I have some pants and it sort of went on like this so I managed to rent some skis and get out in my sort of you know spring outfit and get dragged up to the top of a chairlift in Vermont and skied down once kind of skied down again and by the third time down I was feeling really weird and And I was like, oh, well, I think I'll just go lie down over here in the snow. And I did. I lay down in the snow. And next thing I knew, the ski patrol guy was shaking me and staring me in the face and saying, hey, what's going on here? And I was basically dying of hypothermia. So if you experience cold and you ignore it, you can get into trouble.

[24:56]

So that's not the request that's being made here, right? The request that's being made is to take care intimately of the experience, but not suffer because of our habitual reaction to cold. And to act skillfully to take care of it when it's a problem. That's the place where there's no heat or cold. And in this time, it's worth remembering that that's possible because it's so easy with the difficulties and disruptions that everyone's experiencing now to fall into the habit of continuous,

[25:57]

reactive spiraling thoughts with powerful emotional drivers that really make life difficult. To bring some of this other mode of being into the middle of that is tremendously beneficial and relieving. to sit in such a way that that mode of being rises up and expresses itself fully in the moment is the source of kind of unconditioned gratitude. Let me look here.

[26:58]

Yeah. So normally gratitude, the way we experience it has a conditioned element. I'm grateful because I'm grateful to so-and-so because and so on. It's because of some... event that happened in the condition realm and that we recognize as being, as having value in some or, or benefit in some, um, in some sort of under certain conditions, let's put it that way. And, and we, and we experienced in that moment, a kind of, um, a kind of sensation of, Well, I have probably everyone's experience of gratitude is somewhat different, but mine is kind of a kind of a sensation of solidity, warmth, and a kind of mellowing and softening that happens as a result.

[28:19]

I can rest here because of the causes and conditions of the moment. But since that gratitude is conditional, it also carries with it the seeds of its own destruction. Because it's easy to spin up a conditioned feeling and cling to it. And then when those conditions somehow dissolve, when all of a sudden things aren't so good, that... that gratitude, that enjoyment becomes questionable or even inaccessible. The gratitude that arises in the domain of the absolute, it's just the experience.

[29:23]

It's unconditioned. It's without except the precondition of having a body and being capable of experience. So in that sense, it's conditioned. And in all of the ways that we're used to conditioning our experience, it's just gratitude. And that can be tremendously helpful, just to be present with whatever is going on, whether it's... whether it's anxiety, cold, fear, health or disease, any of these things, right? Any of these dichotomies or constructs that we carry along with ourselves and place on the table, the underlying ground of the experience can be this this is this is this is life arising and it's a miraculous gift this is this is the body and it's a it's a mysterious and marvelous

[30:43]

These are the things of the world. They come forward and present themselves and speak in their own voices. Matchless gift. So I've probably blathered on long enough about that. Does anybody have any questions or comments or complaints? Maybe you could raise your hand and Matt could unmute you if you do. What do you think? Hi.

[31:57]

Let's transition into question and answer with the closing verse. Perfect. Which will be in the chat window shortly. intention equally extend to every being and place with the true merit of Buddha's way beings are numberless I vow to save them delusions are inexhaustible I vow to end them Dharma gates are boundless. I vow to enter them. Buddha's ways unsurpassable.

[33:02]

I vow to become it. Thanks, Matt. So if anyone would like to ask a question or offer a comment, you can raise your blue hand. in the participants window and we will call on you and unmute you. I see Joe. Hi Joe. I still can't hear you, though. Sorry. Oh, I said, it's great to see you. I hope you're still writing your brilliant poetry. Oh, thank you. I am writing some poetry occasionally, yes. Good.

[34:04]

I have a question. The koan you talked about reminds me of one of the koans in the Gateless Gate, where a monk comes to a new monastery and says, I just breakfast can you teach me and the teacher says did you eat breakfast and he says yes and the teacher says well then wash your bowls and I thought this is very similar you know in terms of grounding yourself in everyday mind and I know that it's sort of like a standards and interpretation to say Oh, this is symbolic. The ball symbolizes the mind. And the teacher was trying to tell the student to clean his mind and empty him. And I thought, and I think, no, he's just telling him, wash your dishes after you eat. And this is what's natural. This is Zen. And, you know, we sweep the floors. We, you know, wipe the counters and all at Zen Center.

[35:09]

And I think in some way, do you think that this grounding and everyday mind somehow connects us to the big mind opens us up in some way to big mind. Yes, absolutely. That's right. Can you hear me? Yeah. Yeah. Great. Okay. Yes. I think that's exactly correct. I mean, that's the, that's the, um, that was the discovery that I think that kind of energized, um, you know, Zen monastic living was that if you set life up, if you set monastic life up so that in every moment, you kind of know what you're supposed to be doing with your whole body in mind. You know, chopping vegetables, washing your bowls, walking down the halls. If you meet somebody, then you bow and so on.

[36:12]

If you do that, then this remarkable thing happens where there's everyday activity. And at the same time, the wrangling that would go along with that under a lot of circumstances settles a bit because you can just... just give yourself over to that activity. And in the act of giving over to even to everyday activity, even to just walking down the hall, right, this other mode of being has the opportunity to show itself. Absolutely. I think that's correct. And it's a time-honored methodology for promoting awakening. Does that help? Yeah. Because if I can say something more to Tori, it's awakening.

[37:13]

And awakening is consciousness. So if you're conscious, paying attention when you're washing the dishes, when you're sweeping the floor, when you're driving your car, when you're playing with your children or sitting next to your wife, then you are increasing your level of consciousness to open up to wider things. The beauty of the world, the harmony, your oneness with other people. Yeah, no, that's right. I mean, I use this example a lot, so forgive me if you've already heard it, but Darlene Cohen has this marvelous place in... in her book about living with rheumatoid arthritis where she says, OK, here's a mental exercise. What I want you to do right now is just be with whatever it is you can possibly experience right now, the whole picture, the whole list of whole pictures.

[38:22]

And you sit there and you do that. And you go back to looking at the book. And she says, OK, whatever it was, that probably wasn't enough. And her point is simply that if you can really broaden the container in whatever activity it is that you're engaged in, if you can really broaden the container, then the the kind of artifacts of everyday mind just settle into their place in that container. And the container can pretty much hold everything, including what she's talking about, including the real discomfort and even suffering that arises when you have a long-term chronic illness like rheumatoid arthritis, right? So it was a really great object lesson and sort of set of exercises. So anyway, something like that. Yeah, exactly. Someone else? Thank you. Yeah, thank you. I see someone.

[39:30]

I don't know who it is. Seema. Hi. Hi. Thank you for your talk. I just have one question. Could you just elaborate a little bit more on unconditional gratitude? I've never heard of it that way before. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, of course. I mean, that's mostly my way of talking about it. But fundamentally, If you poke around the literature, you run into statements like this.

[40:44]

In the Heart Sutra, the thing that was so perplexing to Dongshan, it says, when you rely on Prajnaparamita, the mind is without hindrance and without hindrance, there's no fear, right? The, the, when the, when the hindrances, it's not exactly like they, you, you make them disappear, but when they settle in this way that we're just talking about, right? Then, then, then a lot of the, the, the kind of feeling tone that underlies the, everyday mind settles as well. And what comes to the fore for me is this kind of, this kind of, this feeling that, that really just feels exactly like gratitude, but without any, without any conditioned underpinning, without any condition, without any conditions, let's put it that way.

[41:50]

So, and, and, and my experience of it also is that between that gratitude and, and kind of delight or joy, the only difference is some kind of level of excitation. When you have a sensation and that sensation is pretty settled, then that's one thing. When that sensation has a high level of excitation, in the case of an unpleasant sensation, if it feels like an emergency, if it's in the case of a pleasant sensation, if it feels like a powerfully pleasant sensation, right? Then there's this sort of excitation that goes along with it. With this unconditioned gratitude, it's just this feeling of kind of gratitude and rest that can be replaced in cases where there's a lot more going on with a kind of blight, right?

[42:57]

that's the way I experienced it. And I think it just kind of, I think it's the, um, it's the basic underpinning of, of big mind is this, is it a kind of, um, kind of unconditioned gratitude, which leads to among other things, a, uh, willingness to keep opening to the experience of the world whatever it presents moment by moment um does that help or i'm yeah i'm not sure i'm explaining myself no no no you are i think i kind of like the part where you said that it's not when you don't you know usually when i have gratitude it's normally like oh i you know i'm happy and everything's not necessarily going my way but i can appreciate even like tiny things you know what i mean um

[43:58]

But I think it's a state of mind. But I kind of wonder also, are you saying, so whether it's good or if I'm struggling with something, I shouldn't have gratitude then either. It's just like a general, you said that feeling of not too much excitement, more settled feeling. Yeah, I mean, and I've had a lot of opportunities to... to kind of explore what this is like. I've been, some people may know this and some people may not, but I mean, I've been going through some pretty serious health challenges, I would say, and have gotten to really explore what it is to carry that with you into a situation that's frightening or anxiety producing. And, you know, It's beneficial.

[44:58]

Again, if the container is large enough and if it's possible to stay with it, then that gratitude is really, it's like a solid support. Something like that. Thank you. That helps. Thank you. Thanks so much. Thank you. Well, we're just a minute past 8.30. Zach, I wonder if you'd like to offer a closing word before we say goodbye and goodnight? Yeah, absolutely, of course. Yeah, I really appreciate your listening, and I hope that what I said was helpful and illuminating in some way. It's just... It's just me trying to talk about my experience and relate it to this vast and beautiful conceptual framework that we've inherited from our ancestors, which is a thing of matchless beauty.

[46:20]

So thank you so much. And remember that There's always one who's not cold. So thank you. Thank you, Zach. Thank you. Thanks, Zachary. Thank you so much. It was lovely. Great. And now I have to jump down off my seat and hit the leave button. See, this is the best button. Thank you. Thank you, Zach. Thank you, Zach. Are you going to give us a tour of the garage? Yes, absolutely. Here we go. Let's see. Hold on. Let me see. Garage cat. Let's see, tools, bikes.

[47:22]

Let's see the bikes. And then Kuan Yin. Anyway, that's the garage. All right, take care. Thank you. You too. Thank you, Zach.

[47:37]

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