I begin to see and listen to, to remember and accept. I vow to chase the truth of untouchable words. Good evening, everybody. This is the last class, right, of our little series on the Blue Cliff Record. And so we're going to finish up with cases 14 and 15. I think we'll do them both tonight because they sort of hang together and you can't really appreciate one without the other, so we'll do them both. But we'll try anyway, see what happens. I'm a little, I confess, I'm a little unprepared tonight. I was studying these cases over the weekend and just having a hard time.

[01:12]

And case 14 is fairly clear, but case 15 is really hard. I was so exasperated last night when I was studying it that I, because something is going on in the Chinese, that's very hard to tell what it is if you don't know the Chinese, so I was consulting many different translations and getting more and more confused. So I called up Eiken Roshi, you know, like in the middle, he was in the middle of dinner, you know, I called him up, I said, what's your translation of this thing, you know? And he told me and I wrote it down, so I have a translation. Because his translation is not published, you know what I mean, you can't look it up. You can look up his translations of the Mumonkan, but his translations of the Hekiganroku, you can't.

[02:17]

Isn't that kind of cheating? No, no, I just wanted to have his translation of the words, you know what I mean, so I could see what it said, that's the problem. He didn't give you any explanation whatsoever. No, we're working with words that are not in our language and carry all these associations and that's why a lot of times, you know, we break our brain, but it's just because we don't know what the words say. It's pretty hard to study a text that depends on the words when you don't know what the words are. I mean, that's the problem. Sometimes it's not a problem because translation is fairly clear, but this is the point and I'm going to try to bring this out. In these cases, particularly, it's a very subtle and careful wordplay that's at issue and we're trying to understand that wordplay across a foreign language. None of the translations do it, even Eken Roshi's translation, but at least with his translation I can see that some of the other translations are clearly wrong, where before I wasn't so sure, you know.

[03:21]

But in English, I think in English nobody can actually translate what's going on here. Anyway, let's just start with 14. And case 14 doesn't have an introduction, a pointer. For some reason, I actually don't know why, I don't know whether that was deliberate on the part of Suedo or whether he decided that he's not going to make a pointer for this case or whether it was lost somehow or something. I don't know. But it doesn't have an introduction. And a monk asked Yunmun, what are the teachings of a whole lifetime? And Yunmun said, an appropriate statement. And see, Eken Roshi's translation of that is... What, oh yeah, what, I got the numbers mixed up. What is the teaching of the first age? Instead of, what are the teachings of a whole lifetime?

[04:25]

What is the teaching of the first age? And then his... A-G-E, A-G-E. And then his translation of the answer, Yunmun's response, is one teaching in response. You see how problematic this is. Yeah. And then Cicada translates the answer, what are the teachings of a whole lifetime? He translates, what is the teaching of the first age? And his translation of the response is teaching facing oneness. Say that again, please. Teaching facing oneness. So you see, this is hard to kind of figure out what's going on. Whose translation is that? The last one was Cicada, you know, in the two Zen classics. So, it seems as if the question...

[05:26]

First of all, we all remember Yunmun, right? Remember we talked about Yunmun? I think it's case... Yunmun has appeared in several other cases. And he first appears in case six. I don't ask you about that. Did we do that in this class? Or maybe we did that in Cixin last summer, yeah. Yeah, in Cixin last summer. I don't ask about before the 15th day. Try to say something about after the 15th day. Yunmun himself answered for everyone. Every day is a good day. It's a famous saying in Zen. You've heard of that. Every day is a good day. And then, in the commentary to this case, they tell you lots of things about Yunmun. And I spoke a lot about Yunmun. So without going on and on, Yunmun was a student under Muzho.

[06:27]

And there's a famous story about Muzho. He was a real tough teacher. And his method of dealing with students was if somebody came to him, he would say to them... Like, they'd walk in the door, and he would grab them by the lapels and say, you know, say a word of Zen. And they would, of course, be dumbfounded. And he would kick them out. And that was basically it. So not many people came. Muzho didn't have a big temple. He was sort of like off in this corner there. And not very many people got through the gate. So Yunmun heard about him. And Yunmun went and he did the same thing to Yunmun. Then he did everybody else speak-speak. Yunmun couldn't say anything. He threw him out. And Yunmun tried to get back in. And he slammed the door or gate or something on his leg and broke Yunmun's leg. And then on breaking his leg, Yunmun became awakened. And that's the story. Yunmun's enlightenment story is getting his leg broken. And then, although he went to Shui Feng

[07:29]

and became an heir of Shui Feng, he, as the text says, he basically had Muzho style, tough guy type of style. And he was very famous for kind of non-sequitur one-word answers. He would always just respond with one word that often would seemingly have nothing to do with the student's question. He was also noted for, just like in this case, a typical case where he would himself ask the assembly a question that nobody could fathom. And then he himself, as in this case, number six, would give an answer to that question. So they say that he was not too easy to get along with, but noted for his sharpness and quickness

[08:29]

and shortness of his answers and his responses. And he found in the school, the Yunmun school lasted for a number of generations. So, and I think I mentioned before that Sui Dou, the author, the compiler of the Blue Cliff Record was in that school. He was a couple generations after Yunmun in the Yunmun house. So, therefore, it's not surprising that Yunmun appears in the Blue Cliff Record a number of times. And the Blue Cliff Record has that kind of style because it's from that school. So, maybe that's enough general idea about Yunmun. Verse, an appropriate statement. How utterly unique. He wedges a stake into the iron hammerhead with no hole. Under the jambu tree I'm laughing. Ha! Ha!

[09:31]

Last night the black dragon had his horn wrenched off. Exceptional, exceptional. The old man of Shaoyang got one horn. So, what does this... First of all, you know, we've got to see, try to appreciate what the words are saying. Because it's not clear exactly what the question is or what the answer is. Just what the words say. Well, it means that it doesn't follow. The answer doesn't follow or nothing follows from the answer. Yeah, so we have to explore a little bit more. Is that a non-sequitur answer? In what way? And so on.

[10:32]

And what do these words really say? Because we have various, quite different versions of what these words are. So, first we've got to try to determine, you know, what is he saying? So, it seems as if most of the commentators, including Suzuki Roshi, because Suzuki Roshi has a comment which I'll share with you in a moment, on these cases, both of them. He also takes them both together. And I think the commentators more or less agree that this refers to Buddhist teachings. You know, in China, the Chinese were getting various teachings of Buddhism through Central Asia. And, you know, if you've studied much of Buddhist teachings,

[11:33]

you know that they can be quite contradictory. It's quite confusing. You read this sutra, you read that sutra. Especially when you're getting Mahayana and Hinayana materials coming all at the same time. You know, in India, you know, maybe it developed a little bit more chronologically. But in China, it came later, they were getting various kinds of stuff all at the same time. And it was very confusing. And the Chinese were trying to figure out, how could this be? You know, how could the Buddha says this and says that? And it's just totally different worlds and totally different universes. So, one of the features of Chinese Buddhism, as well as later Indian Buddhism and therefore Tibetan Buddhism, was various systems of explaining and kind of like mapping out all the different teachings. So, for example, one such system was

[12:34]

something like this. This is not exactly, because I forget. Something like this. That when the Buddha was first enlightened, of course, he was reluctant to teach, but then he did teach. And he just basically said how he felt about everything, exactly as he felt it. And that was the Avatamsaka Sutra. And it was like totally cosmic and nobody could understand a single word of it. It was beyond anything that anybody could appreciate. So, he realized that he had better back up a few steps and start from the beginning and kind of build up to it. So, then he taught the original teachings, the so-called original teachings. He taught the Five Skandhas and the Twelvefold Chain of Causation and so on, because he realized that people couldn't understand the full weight of his experience. And then after that, he taught the Prajnaparamita literature to sort of cancel out

[13:36]

the material from the Pali Canon so that people could understand that that material was not to be taken literally. And then he taught the Lotus Sutra and so on. And then there's another system in the Tendai school that feels that the Lotus Sutra is the most complete and full teaching. So, there were all these kind of systems that sort of made sense, you know. And also, in Tibetan Buddhism, they do a similar thing where they say there's the Hinayana, the Mahayana, the Tantrayana and they're all true, but they all need to be understood in various ways in this hierarchical setup of the teachings and so on. And, of course, the idea was that the Buddhas taught appropriate to the situation. In other words, when he realized that people couldn't understand, he backed up and he taught so that people could understand and so on. So that's what this question is. What are the teachings of a whole lifetime? Or what are the teachings

[14:39]

of the first age? Either way, however you translate that, that refers to the entire body of Buddhist teaching with the assumption and the implication that the entire body of Buddhist teachings is quite various and quite depending on, you know, situational in response to various people and various understandings and so on. So that's what is referred to in this question, however you say it. What are the teachings of this age, of the first age? Or what are the teachings of a whole lifetime? It's the same. It refers to the same thing. That seems fairly clear from the different commentaries. Then, so, the various translations of the answer, then, are here an appropriate statement. Although, I'm pretty sure that it's not, it doesn't say statement. It probably says response

[15:40]

because the character for response in Chinese has a lot of mouth radicals in it. So it does imply a verbal response but not necessarily a statement. So, probably response is a better translation. And it probably has the idea in there and I don't have the characters so I'm kind of used to reading this stuff so I have a feeling which may or may not be accurate of it. But it seems like judging from the different translations that it probably has the word one in it or like one in the sense of at one with or matching. So that's how you get appropriate out of one because it matches, it lines up. But Eken Roshi has one teaching in response and Cicada says teaching facing oneness. So you can see that's how Chinese

[16:40]

is you see. It could bear both those translations because there's no grammar exactly. It's just it's not clear how the words relate to one another and quite often there's that kind of ambiguity that it could support a number of different translations. So you can see teaching facing oneness and one teaching in response how they could get that out of the same character. And let's see Suzuki Roshi is working from he didn't translate himself Suzuki Roshi he used an old book. At the time that he taught there was only one translation in existence in English and it's a particularly bad one but he translates what is the first age teaching which is the same as Eken Roshi and then the response is the teaching confronts each. You can see how you know so the idea however you

[17:41]

translate you get a feeling for it right the idea is the teaching suits the occasion. See that's pretty good. The teaching suits the occasion or the teaching in the occasion you can see face each other in oneness they match right so that's not that hard to understand and then so in terms of our practice you know like this morning we had the ceremony and so I tried to do that right I tried to respond to each person for that person right that's what I'm trying and not that I'm thinking about it but my feeling is I want to meet the person and it helps that I know you right we practice together that's what makes it interesting I know everybody

[18:42]

and I know the context from which the question comes and I try to just meet the question with a response that's appropriate so that once the response that I give to one person might be the opposite I don't know if that happened this morning I can't remember but quite often it does happen where two people might even ask the same question and I might give the opposite response because of the person that's the idea here and then we have the same in our lives we have the same issue right we have to respond appropriately what's appropriate for me is not necessarily appropriate for you what's appropriate for you today is not necessarily appropriate for you tomorrow we're all in different positions in different places in our lives and we have to authentically meet conditions that's the essential point of the teachings of Buddhism that's what they all amount to and of course how do we know somebody might ask how do you know

[19:43]

what the appropriate response is well that's where the activity of our practice comes in you know we know because we trust ourselves we trust our gut reaction and the more established in the way we are the more our gut reaction is to be trusted and along the way of that we make a lot of mistakes and we learn we learn we make a mistake we trust our gut reaction and we say whoops no no . It didn't work so now I learn that now I know that this is part of my experience now so but this is a very profound thing it's simple to understand in a way but it's very profound to live right how do we know how to respond to conditions how do we know how to come forth from the standpoint of Dharma and not from the standpoint of me

[20:43]

this is what I want this is what I need this is what I feel like no more like this is this is how I come forth as the whole universe you know on my life I come forth in that way we have to let go of our personal stuff as much as we can realistically do that and come forth as the Dharma so that's what I think he's saying yes I hear also um skillful means yeah that's the that's upaya right exactly so and then the commentary makes this pretty crystal clear when it says in the very beginning members of the Chan family if you want to know the meaning of Buddha nature you must observe times and seasons causes and conditions so that's saying the same thing this is called the special transmission outside the written teachings

[21:44]

the soul transmission of the mind seal directly pointing to the human mind for the perception of nature and realization of Buddhahood so in other words that's why so even though all these different teachings of Buddha are quite different in detail all kind of detail and everything but our school is saying don't get bogged down in all these details and all these teachings realize that the teachings are only created out of a particular situation and those situations arise in the course of our lives so that's the teaching is to respond as Buddha responded with teaching we have to respond with our own activity so it's following time and season causes and conditions that is the special transmission and then for 49 years Buddha taught and you know

[22:44]

the monk asked what's the meaning of that and then the monk responded as he did and then this is kind of interesting when it says as usual within one sentence of Yunmin three sentences are bound to be present these are called the sentence that encloses heaven and earth the sentence that follows the waves and the sentence that cuts off the myriad streams so simultaneously you know there's these three and this is the I think this is the secret of Yunmin's responses why they're so hard to understand sometimes is because they have these three dimensions the sentence that encloses heaven and earth is like the sword that gives life in other words everything's included

[23:47]

no mistakes there's no mistakes everything is included whatever happens you know break the rules whatever it's all included there's no nothing outside the teaching the affirmative path the path of the life-giving sword and then the other one the sentence that cuts off the myriad streams that's the sword that takes life that's the via negativa nothing is right whatever you whatever you present whatever you do always wrong Dogen says my whole practice has been one continuous mistake emptiness nothing to hold on to nothing exists and so you have to appreciate both sides and Yunmin gives answers that bring up both sides at the same time and then the one in the middle wave following wave or sentence that follows the waves this is a code

[24:47]

meaning following the waves means following karma so the student always has a certain karmic spin, right? everybody comes with their own stuff everybody's stuff is a little different somebody's is a perfectionist right? that's their problem somebody else is sloppy that's their problem everybody's got their own you know version of confusion delusion and you know and greed and aversion you know we're all like walking billboards for greed, hate and delusion each one with a different a different brand name and so that's that's our that's our situation so so Yunmin and so of course you can't teach without relating to that you have to know

[25:48]

the student you have to know their karma and you have to follow their karma that's wave following wave you follow the karma of the student because you might as well because you're never going to get through if you don't in other words if you don't know the student's karma and follow along with it you won't be able to cooperate with the student's path and help them and it's the same way in terms of our own practice if we were to deny the way we are and say well we're supposed to be Zen so I'm not supposed to be this way that I am that'll never work right because we'll be swimming upstream we have to actually figure out you know what our tendencies are and we have to honor them and harmonize with them in order to realize enlightenment through them so that's wave follows after wave yeah via negativity you're talking about maybe void something

[26:48]

I worked with a novelist who claimed that he never learned anything new as he grew up he just learned to make few mistakes as he went along is that basically sort of an interesting does that fit in well I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that what I think that this way of cutting off the myriad streams is appreciating emptiness that nothing exists giving up everything nothing exists nothing to hold on to nothing to affirm so it's kind of like a little tough you know being willing to die at any moment like that now whether or not that's what your novelist friend was saying I'm not sure but it's kind of like that accepting you know

[27:48]

seeing the impermanence maybe seeing impermanence impermanence has these two sides but the one side is nothing exists we're not really here we're already dead which means we're already at peace we're already quiet we think we have suffering there's no suffering to be found and the other side is everything exists there's no mistakes you know so it's they're kind of flip side form is emptiness emptiness is form so anyway these are the three and I think we have to appreciate all three of these positions if we can't I think fail to appreciate any one of them because then we'll always be lopsided if we only follow wave after wave well that's just that's just ordinary life ordinary suffering ordinary greed hate and delusion that's not quite enough you know we'll just our whole life

[28:50]

will be on fire you know forever so that's not on the other hand it's not enough just to follow the negative way to cut off the myriad streams then we become nihilistic and we just we jump off bridges and we don't we have no kindness the other way just just just the sword that gives life or just here he says does he say enclosing heaven and earth if that's the only way but not balanced by the other two then it's total permissiveness there's no boundaries we can do anything and that's not balanced how are we going to get anywhere that way you can do anything you don't do anything you know what I mean what am I going to do I can do anything I want today I know people who can do anything they want they can wake up in the morning and do anything they want and they can't do anything I mean really for that reason you need a problem you need a structure yeah you do

[29:50]

how can you live without that we all need a problem that's why we come to appreciate our problems you see at one time it feels like oh my god I feel so bad I'm such a schmo then you say wow I'm lucky I have this schmoness otherwise what would I do with myself so that's good that's a good thing to remember right these three these three sides to every yun mun statement so this statement what is the teaching of the age an appropriate response or one teaching in response has those three sides one teaching in response nothing everything and just your response ok so the verse an appropriate statement how utterly unique he wedges a stake

[30:51]

into the iron hammerhead with no hole so the iron hammerhead with no hole it's a bit like you know you can't use it no hole means no place to stick a handle in so this big iron hammerhead which is good for doing work but it's totally useless because there's no handle so that's ultimate reality is like that ultimate reality is like this big hammerhead but it can't operate in our lives unless we can get a handle on it literally so he drives a wedge into the iron hammerhead with no hole means he gets a handle in it his yun mun saying is a handle for us that's the idea where does that come from it seemed out of the blue yeah it's out of the blue these things are all either the blue clip okay they're all either they're all either Chinese folk

[31:51]

sayings or lines from Chinese poems or other literary Chinese texts this is very a footnote to the response number two see the response the appropriate statement footnote oh no no two an iron hammerhead yeah right but who said yun mun didn't say that did he mean that no no this so well see the poem is written by uh suedo I was just quoting the poem not the footnote oh okay but the footnote still the footnote yeah uses the same image and the footnote is written by this other guy I forget his name but there's three we're reading we're reading three people here one is one is suedo who wrote the who kind of edited the case and wrote the verse right and then uh yuanwu is the one who wrote the commentary and then this third guy who came along whose name I keep forgetting wrote the footnotes

[32:52]

clary no not clary clary well yes clary wrote the footnotes that have letters so like translators notes a b c clary wrote that and it's also his translation which is and he translated yeah but this image so this image the iron hammerhead with no handle hole is used by both mister x and suedo to comment on uh yun man's answer and they're both saying that yun man gives us a a handle so that we can wield this iron hammerhead and um this is what you know one of the things that uses unity as a tool unity well I mean the uh iron hammerhead without the hole is like like the iron uh ox or something it's everything yeah the mosquito

[33:54]

trying to bite an iron hole it's everything yeah who uses everything you can't you can't use it because everything includes you right so you can't how do you use it it's a hammerhead so it's useful here yeah it's unity yeah he actually sticks a handle on unity it's an amazing thing yeah an appropriate statement right exactly it's everything in every case exactly and it's useful because it's appropriate in every situation it's a marvelous amazing exactly and that's what the sutra is and that's the idea the sutra is and all of it is that yeah it's just a little handle on everything or on nothing yeah yeah it's amazing it's amazing it's wonderful it's wonderful I'll drink to that laughter no really I mean what a thing I think that all the time it's amazing yeah I think I might be getting

[34:55]

a little off in my head with this so thank you like is in a way like to use the hammerhead analogy like the hammerhead is everything and the only way that you can use it is like if you are the wedge like like you talk about the way like following the way of karma like you are that's your karma so you have to be the wedge like you have to put yourself in the shoes of the wedge you are the wedge that's right you are the handle right you are the handle anyway no matter what yeah so continuing with the poem then under the jambu tree I'm laughing ha ha the name of this the name of the place where we live is called various things but one of the it's called there's a hole there's a hole fascinating

[35:55]

buddhist cosmology that's really detailed and in the buddhist cosmology the world we are living on the continent of jambudvipa which means I forget what that means but anyway this world no we are this is what this world is this oh this world this world like you know like the earth ha [...] like milky way not the milky way the earth but I mean whoever like the universe well are you talking about reality or are you talking about ha ha ha the name of the earth in ordinary human habitation is called jambudvipa ha [...] are we understanding each other ha [...] I was reading this

[36:56]

article today about the hubble space telescope just makes your head spin you know how vast you know I mean wow the hubble space telescope I mean I can't even just how the earth is such a teensy little thing you know there's gazillions of different stars and they're running galaxies you know that flow into one another and sometimes they bump into one another and they make huge explosions and everything I mean even like I was thinking today a huge earthquake that would knock this whole building down and a big roar and the earth opens up and fire comes out and all this would be peanuts compared to just the smallest little thing when two galaxies happen to smash together I mean it's like unbelievable you know and

[37:57]

yeah I mean like they measured I'm sorry I'll look it up and I'll tell you about it later but there was one part where it said that the galaxy that we're in is actually by measurement moving in the direction of another galaxy like I think in five billion years or something like that I mean it's going to hit this other galaxy and it's going to be like fireworks you know that's going to make anything that anybody has ever seen I mean the biggest fire alarm fire in Oakland you know or anything like that I mean it's going to happen they see that it's happening we're on the way toward meeting this other galaxy and crashing into it which happens all the time they have they see them pictures of them you know through the telescope but but we're sitting here on Jambu Vipa doing our practice and he's the author Swaydo is sitting under the Jambu tree which sort of covers the continent

[38:59]

looking at all this and laughing because it's really funny and then like we were like we were doing yeah just like we were doing yeah and uh then I'm not sure about the black dragon had his horn wrenched off I'm not sure about that I don't know where that comes from but the old man of Shaoyang is Yunmon and Yunmon you know Yunmon he's getting it he didn't get both horns but clearly he says the horn is is the stake driven into the holeless hammer anyway let's let's look at the next case because the next case is the exact mirror opposite of case 14 case 15 is the mirror opposite of case 14 and this one

[40:02]

does have a pointer uh the single edge sword that kills people the double edge sword that brings people to life the customary rule of high antiquity is still the pivotal essence for today but tell me right now which is the sword that kills people and which is the sword that brings people to life to test I cite this look the case a monk asked Yunmon when it's not the present intellect and it's not the present phenomena what is it? and Yunmon said an upside down statement and Akin Roshi says for the question this is not the present function of mind this is not the matter before me and Yunmon says

[41:02]

one statement upside down and uh one statement upside down the question this is not the present function of mind this is not the matter before me and then one statement upside down between that and Cleary's translation uh well you can you can see clearly how they're using the same words it's almost the same but the present matter before me uh doesn't sound exactly like the present phenomena it's pretty close but the way I understand this myself is that the present

[42:05]

intellect and the present phenomena is the equivalent of the teaching of the age in the previous case it's the opposite here's here's how that case referred to the teachings right and the receiving uh the listeners of the teaching it was all about teaching suited to the listeners right the Buddha taught this way when there were these kind of people and he taught that way and those kind of people and that way and this kind of people what does all that amount to an appropriate response right here it's like what is it when there's no teaching and no listener when there's no intellect so that so the intellect here is the teaching and the phenomena is the people that's how I understand this

[43:06]

so it's like saying what is this when there's no teaching and no listener when there's no intellect or no and no phenomena to give rise to the statement that's how I understand it anyway so that's the mirror you see how that would be the make sense it's just my interpretation what was Enki Roshi's translation response one statement upside down and Cicada who in the previous one said you know what is the teaching of the first age one teaching I mean teaching facing oneness here he says no teaching of oneness and another translation I found says the opposite of statement instead of upside down statement and it says the opposite of statement of statement the opposite of statement

[44:08]

yeah so and then Suzuki Roshi who's working from Shah's old translation yeah here's how Shah translated it and Suzuki Roshi used this a monk asked Yun Men what would Buddha have done if there had been no one to hear the teaching and no occasion on which to apply the teaching so that makes it real obvious that it's the opposite and then Omon replied topsy-turvy idea the same as upside down so there's definitely the idea here we can see that upside down some kind of a response or statement which is upside down which is the opposite of appropriate appropriate is right side up it fits perfectly upside down is like the reverse of that right so you can see how in both case 14 and 15 the question in 15 is the reverse

[45:10]

of the question of 14 and the answer of 15 is the reverse of the answer of 14 can you understand does that make sense I'm pretty sure that that's that that's the case and that's where the fun of it lies in the exact mirroring and the funny part the thing that got me that made me really crazy and I'm still not satisfied with it is you would think the logically like cicada does it as you would think it would be what about when the what's the teaching of the of the first age of a whole lifetime an appropriate response what about when there's no teaching and no hearers no response right who needs a response like why have a stick a handle on that it's just as it is no response necessary no response would arise that would be

[46:11]

what you would think right but he doesn't say no response he doesn't say appropriate response and no response he says the opposite just because the question is the opposite he says the opposite appropriate response basically an inappropriate a totally inappropriate response so that's weird right can you see what I mean can you appreciate the dilemma it's weird why would he say that it's a great example of Yunlan not saying you know what's you think should be said that itself his response is an inappropriate response yeah so what's he saying you know so okay that's the case and then the verse is does he maybe respond to the question as being an upside down statement yeah well that's one I think there's a lot of different ways we can look at that and that's Yunlan for you right I think I mean you could

[47:12]

like so there's all these galaxies crashing into one another I mean this is it's like science fiction you know but it's more real than you and me right I mean so we say what about when there's nothing right what nothing where are you going to find when is there going to be nothing so you and I are gone fine the earth burns up and falls out of the heavens big deal is there nothing then we might think well there's nothing I'm gone there's nothing everybody I know they're all gone there's nothing the earth burned up there's nothing but there's plenty anyway maybe the idea that there's nothing and no one is an upside down topsy-turvy idea it's my idea my concept nothingness is my concept it's a concept it certainly makes sense

[48:14]

when there's something that you think there's nothing we can talk about nothing and we can even freak ourselves out over nothing but what kind of nothing would there be ever so maybe and and then also to me I can't escape the idea that what's upside down is the ordinary world I mean the ordinary way that we have of looking at life in our world is exactly upside down from the way it really is so so we have this world of suffering creatures and the suffering directly comes from the idea that we live in a world

[49:14]

and understand a world and explain a world and describe a world that's the exact opposite of the way the world really is so I hear echoes of that in Yun Mon's response here's somebody talking about not the everyday he's not asking about what about the everyday world of suffering upside down idea he's asking about total nothingness there's no response there's no teaching there's no conditions for teaching it's a pure zero world what about that upside down idea that's the equivalent of the world do you understand what I'm saying in other words nothing and something are completely implicated with each other they're both they're both our concepts neither one is so well what Wayne said

[50:15]

is that it's not when it's not the present intellect I mean he's evoking the present intellect now and he's also evoking not the present intellect now you mean the monk isn't saying that yeah he said when it's not the present intellect he's evoking the present intellect now and he's evoking not the present intellect now and he's evoking In other words, am I understanding you correctly, that already in the student speaking of such a thing, he's already caught in a contradiction himself. Yeah. [...] And the only appropriate response is to be upside down. How do you mean? Well, if you are right side up in an upside down world, it would be very rude.

[51:18]

Maybe. Maybe. Maybe. It's like when he says that in the next paragraph about the answers in the question and the questions in the answer. So when it's not the present intellect and it's not the present phenomenon, that would be an upside down question. Yeah. Well, that's what we're saying. Yeah. And so the answer has to be upside down. Upside down answer. Yeah. The answer is upside down. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that that's what we're saying. I think we should also be open to the fact that there's at least two or three more dimensions to it. But I think that that seems like a good idea as to one of the dimensions of it. Is that a comment on the student's question? Yeah. Or reflection of it. Yeah. Rude in the sense of not going along with the waves. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

[52:39]

Yeah. So that's what we're saying. I think that this response of Yunmeng's is a reflection of the question or a comment on the question. So let's just do the verse and then we'll go back and look at the commentary. And then remind me to give you some selections from Suzuki Roshi's commentary on these cases. An upside-down statement, dividing one token, dying with you, being born with you, to give you certainty. The 84,000 disciples of Buddha were not phoenix feathers. Thirty-three people entered the tiger's den, distinctly outstanding, the moon in the churning rushing water. Okay, so let's go back and look at the commentary and then sort of work our way up to the poem. And then we'll look at Suzuki Roshi's commentary and then we'll be done.

[53:41]

So the commentary, the question by the monk in the previous case is called, asking for more instruction. In the present case, it is a question to demonstrate understanding. It can also be called a question with a concealed bar. So that Suedo feels like, although most commentators say that it's the same monk in both cases, Suedo thinks that the second monk is much more clever than the first. And I think, I get a feeling for that. Don't you? In other words, the first one is, what is the teachings of Buddha, or why did Bodhidharma come? Or what is... Yeah, it's pretty much like a beginner's question, or not a beginner's, but you know, like an innocent question. Where this question, you feel there's something hidden in this question, like a little trick question. Okay.

[54:46]

Couldn't it be the same monk after he's really tried to follow the teachings that he'd been given in that first case? Yeah, yeah. Why don't we know who this monk is? Like, that's something that I think is really interesting, after what you just said about how you respond to questions like the Shosan, like on this intimate level, because you know the situation that people are in. But like, we don't know the situation of this monk, and like, maybe he's just responding to this monk in this instant. Well, part of the work that we have to do, in understanding a case like this, is we have to become the monk, and we have to become human. See, these are little, like, what's the word, the stripped down, these cases are stripped down to one or two lines. It's a whole lifetime in here, right? Stripped down to one or two lines, and we have to supply the life. You know, this is just giving us the pattern. We have to actually, if we're going to really study these cases and meditate with them,

[55:48]

then we are the monk. You have to become the monk, and you have to really understand, you know, where this monk is coming from, and it has to be where you're coming from. So that's why. Yeah, it could be the same monk, like Matt says, later on. You know, having received that first response. It could very well be that, you know, this is a case where, you know, let's say it's a monk in a monastery, in a Shosan ceremony, he asked the first question of a young man. The young man gave the first response. He went back to the cushion for two years, five years, one year, six months, who knows. And then the next time there was a big public ceremony, he came up and he said, he realized something, you know, and then he came back and he said, okay, good, I got that. Now, what about this? See? And then the young man said an upside-down statement. So, and this is really, I think, corroborating Bob's point. An expert teaching master is like a bright mirror on a stand.

[56:50]

If a foreigner comes, a foreigner is reflected, and if a native comes, a native is reflected. So a foreigner and native is kind of like code for, you know, one who is intimate and one who isn't. One who intimately, the native is intimate with the place, is totally manifesting the teaching. A foreigner is not, you know. So, teaching, this is like, again, Bob was saying, following the waves. So, you follow the person's karma. You respond. So, you know, if someone asks you about the deepest issues of Buddhadharma, you try to respond about the deepest issues of Buddhadharma. If somebody asks you about the weather, you talk about the weather.

[57:51]

Forget about the deepest issues of Buddhadharma. So, like that. And then, since when have the sages from past times ever had anything to give to people? Where is their Chan or Tao that can be given to you? If you don't do hellish deeds, naturally you will not bring on hellish results. If you don't create heavenly conditions, naturally you won't receive heavenly rewards. All circumstances of activity are self-made and self-received. And Yuen Mun clearly tells you, when we discuss this affair, it's not in the words and phrases. Then, the last paragraph. This monk asked, well, when it's not the present intellect and it's not the present

[58:52]

phenomenon, what is it? Why didn't Yuen Mun answer him with some other words? Why instead did you just say to him an upside-down statement? Yuen Mun at once demolished him utterly. Still, to say an upside-down statement at this point is to gouge out a wound in healthy flesh, which means, you know, it's unnecessary. You're messing it up. Everything is nice. Why are you going in there and making a mess out of it? You know, he's criticizing Yuen Mun in a way, in a nice way, I think. But, you know, why did he even have to say anything? The emergence of tracts of words is the source from which divergent opinions are born. So, this seems to indicate that Yuen Mun is not giving the student an answer to his question,

[59:59]

and that an answer to a question can never be given, because the answer is in the question. And all you can do is point that out and give an answer that comes out of the question. And that's really the truth, right? Nobody will hear what they don't want to hear, what they're not ready to hear. You can't tell anybody anything. I know that. You know? All you can do is try to point out to someone what it is they're actually saying or doing, and then let them reap the rewards of their activity. That's all you can do, really. I mean, in a way, all teaching is secret, right? Because you can stand up and say all these things, but just like Buddha, you know, he gives the Avatamsaka Sutra, you know, all three volumes, and everybody goes,

[61:01]

Huh? So then he says, Well, I better say something else. So, I think that's the idea here. Yuen Mun is just reflecting this to... Uh-huh? I'm just thinking, you know, in the orioke when we chant, Buddha was such-and-such a such-and-such place. It seems like in the chronology that it says that he taught before he was enlightened. I think so. Huh? Buddha was born at... There goes that theory.

[62:02]

There goes that theory. Okay, so... The verse. An upside-down statement dividing one token. Well, I'm not sure about that. An upside-down statement dividing one token. It could be, one of the commentators suggests, and I thought this was a decent idea anyway, that half the token is an appropriate response, and the other half the token is an upside-down idea. That these two cases are half of the same, each one carries half of Yuen Mun's meaning. I don't know. Anyway, that's a thought. Could it also be that, as they're saying, the statement is the response to the question... Yeah, it could be like that.

[63:02]

Yeah, the token is divided between the question and the answer. Yeah, it could be like that. Dying with you, being born with you, to give you certainty. And this to me is a beautiful... It reminds me, I just thought of this... It reminds me of the wonderful little poem by Ryokan, which I was staying... You know, in the apartment that I stay in when I go to Vancouver, you know, Michelle's apartment. Michelle... I ordained Michelle not too long ago, and the sangha up there... You know, it's not like here, where we live in a wealthy temple, where we get ordained, and the temple gives you thousands of dollars worth of robes. Renunciation. There, there's no money, so the temple doesn't give you anything.

[64:09]

You sew your own kesa, and then that's it. So, the sangha wanted to give her something for the ordination, and I said, well, you know, maybe you should give her a robe, because she doesn't really have a proper robe, so the sangha all pitched in. This is a long story, to make a small point. Anyway, they sent her a card with the robe, and they said, this is a robe for you. And everybody's name was on the inside, and on the outside of the card was a little poem by Ryokan that goes something like, I wish my priest's robe were big enough to enclose all the suffering sentient beings in the world. Which is a wonderful poem, isn't it? Really beautiful. And, so that's like this, you know. Dying with you, being born with you. And that's what we do, right? We die with each other, and we're born with each other, and we suffer with each other.

[65:10]

This is our commitment, you know. We can't really, in a fundamental way, we can't really do anything for anybody, or for each other. All we can do is die with each other, and be born with each other, and be willing to do that. Just enclose each other, you know, together, and completely be willing to accept that. Accept each person as they are, accept their suffering. And really take it to heart, you know what I mean? Not be beyond it, or be some, I'm Dharma, that doesn't bother me, or something. But, you know, really and truly embrace people's suffering. And so, you know, what an interesting thing. Here's this tough guy, Yun Man, who sounds like the most aloof character that there could ever be, dispensing all this Yin stuff. But really, Suedo is telling us that in this response, we really see Yun Man's heart.

[66:14]

He's willing to get in there with this student, and be just as upside down as anybody. Dying with you, be born with you, to give you certainty, or to give you confidence. See? When Yun Man dies and is born with his students, it's like the Buddha dies and is born with his students. And that gives us confidence to encourage to die and be born. So that's beautiful to me, very beautiful. The 84,000 disciples of Buddha were not phoenix feathers, and the commentary tells us that phoenix feathers refers to some old story, the burden of which is that phoenix feather means brilliant, great. And these are the 84,000 Buddhas in the assembly, I think this is what it says, when Mahakasyapa saw the flower.

[67:18]

These are the 84,000 who don't understand. And 33 people enter the tiger's den. I think this is 33 generations of students from Buddha to Yun Man. It's Yun Man's lineage. Now we have 92. We've gone to 92nd or something, maybe 92nd or 93rd generation. And Bhikkhu Roshi used to always reflect on what an amazing thing that was, that there were only 90 people or whatever. You could put 90 people in this room, that there were 90 generations, it's not so many, not such a long time ago. But in Yun Man's time it was 33, now it's 90. So 33 people enter the tiger's den, distinctly outstanding, the moon in the churning, rushing water,

[68:19]

and that's another image of karma. The moon, awakening, is in the churning, rushing water. The reflection of the moon is in that rushing water. It might not be so clear in the churning, rushing water, but it's there. The reflection of the moon is there anyway. And so we get down there with each other in that churning, rushing water. We don't avoid it. We're willing to do that with each other. But it's interesting, you see, that the irony of the case is that Yun Man's answer is following the student's karma. It's all about karma and it's all about the upside-down world. And the student, seemingly, is bringing up nothingness. So, can you appreciate? There is no nothingness. There is no beyond.

[69:21]

There is no elsewhere. There is no peace. There is no rest. There is no later on. There is no enlightenment. There is no somehow immune Shangri-La. There's only now, now, now, now. Activity, activity, activity, activity. Meeting, meeting, meeting. Practice, practice, practice. Life, life, life. Which is also death, death, death. So, the student thinks that he's bringing up what's beyond. And Yun Man, basically, you know, it's sort of like, you could say, almost like the student says, you know, what's it like when we're beyond tears? And Yun Man bursts into crying. That's kind of like what this case is like, you know. Because he sees that when the student says,

[70:25]

what's it like to be beyond tears? That, yeah, that's what? You're back at tears. Yeah. That's the deepest sadness of all. This projection that there is such a thing. And the desire to get there only is going to produce more tears. And Yun Man sees that and bursts out crying. Well, that is beyond tears. Crying. Yeah. It is beyond tears. Yeah, exactly. In other words, being willing to... Yeah, just doing it. Yeah. Right. Grandson. Yeah. So Yun Man is able to... Tears, Yun Man's tears are tears transcending tears, yeah. So, yeah, let's see now. There's maybe one little thing here. Oh, yeah. The three kinds of leakage. I like that part. Nice little teaching there about the three kinds of leakage on page 101. There are three kinds of leakage.

[71:38]

Emotional leakage, leakage of views, and verbal leakage. If there is leakage of views, the intellect does not stir from its fixed position and falls into the poisonous sea. So leakage of views is being stuck on views. Right? Having a fixed principle and not letting go of it. That's leakage of views. Why the word leakage? Well, it's an old technical term in old Buddhism which was literally outflow. Meaning like a leak, right? And I don't know why they use that term exactly. It's sort of like, I can understand it. I mean, it's like if you're really settled, you're not flowing out of yourself, right?

[72:42]

Can you feel that? You're really settled, so somebody puts this, you know, like, it's Thanksgiving, right? And you're very settled in your mind, at ease. Somebody puts a gigantic pumpkin pie in front of you, and you just see that pumpkin pie, just as it is. Or, you're not settled, and somebody puts that pumpkin pie in front of you, and you're going, whoa, I want that. You know? You can feel yourself flowing out of yourself toward that pumpkin pie. And you're wanting to incorporate it into yourself, it's flowing out. Desire is like that. Desire is one of the outflows. See? So that's what happens when we actually flow out of ourselves, and this is where trouble comes from, right? Because we're not self-possessed, so to speak.

[73:45]

So we're flowing out. So they call that outflows. And so, in Zen, they use that term, and clearly translates it as leakage. That's why. Yeah? There's something wrong with blending the pie. There's something wrong with outflows. Yes. Now, you could say, oh, how pleasant. Let's have a piece of pie. So we, in our other... We were having a class in the Majjhina Nikaya. I don't know if you guys were around when we were doing that class, but we were studying a text that was on this point. And it was basically saying that there's nothing wrong with eating a piece of pumpkin pie, that Buddha Dharma is not asceticism. The Buddha actually tried asceticism, and he found out that it didn't really work. So, in other words, that means that it's not that we are to eliminate desire

[74:47]

and not have a piece of pumpkin pie on Thanksgiving, but how do we have that piece of pumpkin pie? How do we appreciate it? And if we flow out of ourselves and try to gobble up that piece of pumpkin pie, in effect, to fill the void that is ourselves, then this will not be helpful. But, if we present it with a piece of pumpkin pie, having the sense of taste and appreciating the sense of taste appropriately, we can enjoy the piece of pumpkin pie without outflows. So, the outflow is not measured by whether or not you're eating the pumpkin pie. It's measured by your inner relationship to that. And that's the idea. Does that make sense? Yeah. So, one kind of leakage here is the leakage of views, which is the one where the intellect fixes on a position or an idea

[75:48]

and won't let go of it. And then, the leakage of feelings is if feelings leak, knowing always turns toward and against. And one's view is biased. So, you can't just see something. You have to either want it or reject it. And those are the possible feelings, right? And that is either grasping or aversion. And once you do that, you're already in the soup. The alternative is to just allow things to be as they are and appreciate everything without trying to grab it or avert from it. Yeah, in a way, yeah. Balance, yeah. Leakage is the opposite of that. So, that's feelings leak. And verbal leakage embodies the marvel

[76:49]

but loses the fundamental. The intellect confuses beginning and end. And I think that's... I guess, anyway... Verbal leakage seems like it has to do with words, doesn't it? So, it has to do with ways of speaking. Speaking in a way that's enthusiastically describing things but forgetting what things really are, the fundamental. So, it's possible for us to mesmerize ourselves with language if we lose track of what things really are and we just get wrapped up in language. I know some people like that who just get wrapped up in their own language. You don't have to be all that verbal to do that but forget what it is that they're doing

[77:50]

and what matters. It happens. So, those are the three kinds of leakage to watch out for. It's funny because in the old school these are not the... The outflows are different ones. I think one is sense desire. Actually, I think false views is one of the outflows. Sense desire, false views, ill will. I forgot. I think there's four of them. We'll look it up. I don't think there's anything special that they choose to practice in the creation. Maybe. It's not exact. It's a little bit different list. I should know these things. Shame on me. Okay. So, let's just see what... I'll give you some highlights from Suzuki Roshi.

[78:52]

So, in this commentary here he discusses both cases at the same time. And he says... I won't read it all because it's several pages long. The teaching given by Shakyamuni Buddha during his lifetime this is about case 14 was accommodated to each disciple's particular temperament and to each occasion's particular circumstances. For each case there should be a special remedy. According to the circumstances there should even be teachings other than the teachings which were told by Buddha. In the light of this, how is it possible to interpret and pass down an essential teaching which can be applied to every possible occasion and individual temperament? And of course, the implication being

[79:56]

it is impossible. It's not. This questioning monk had a preconceived idea of Zen Buddhism as an esoteric dharma transmitted through the Zen ancestors which is different from the teachings of other schools of Buddhism based on supposedly dead scriptures. U Mon's answer points out the monk's misunderstanding of the real nature of the sects of Buddhism. So, it's a little bit different. He's saying that U Mon... He says that the monk was trying to get U Mon to say something like those teachings don't matter we're doing something beyond those teachings and U Mon was saying, no, those teachings were appropriate for the situation and our way is not different from those teachings that's what Suzuki Roshi interprets. Suzuki Roshi goes on to say that there was a school

[80:59]

that slighted the scriptures and ignored the precepts but that U Mon was showing something different. Ah... Whatever the teaching may be the teaching confronts each one. In accordance with the circumstances the teaching has absolute value and to accord with the circumstances the teaching should have an infinite number of forms. Buddhism in its pure and formless form is given to us in Samadhi or Zazen when we are ready to accept Buddhism without expecting anything. Buddhism is not something you will find out when you try. When you are just ready to accept it everything you see flashes forth to great light and everything you hear is the wondrous free voice. That is why you sit.

[81:59]

So, when he says Buddhism is not something you will find out when you try it means it's not something that you can do I'm going to do Buddhism, I'm going to discover I'm going to find out Buddhism just finally when we are ready we just accept it and it dawns on us or it takes us over rather than we are going to make it it makes us and then everything we see is Buddha Dharma and that's why we sit. That's what he says about case 14 and then about case 15 he says in the introductory word Ingo refers to the life-taking sword life-taking sword means to eliminate all the ideas and expectations which you have to leave out all the objects in front of you in other words, to be one with what is given to you and to feel empty. That's good, huh? That's Suzuki Roshi, he was alright. To kill the Buddha

[83:04]

means just to be Buddha to be ready to do anything as it comes to you one thing after another in this way the Buddha's great activity appears if you have a preconceived idea of the first principle that idea is topsy-turvy as long as you try to find out what is the first principle which can be applied to every occasion you have topsy-turvy ideas such ideas should be removed when everything is clear and empty Buddha's great light shines forth so don't hold on to any notions of Buddhism this is like in a certain way the exact opposite of what I call fundamentalism which says this is the truth, now I know it and if you don't believe it there's something wrong with you or I'm holding on to this because I know it's true there's no such thing in Buddha Dharma Suzuki Roshi says if you hold on to that, that's called leaking of intellect

[84:05]

or leaking of youth so that's what he says about that anything left hanging there or can we stop I'm ready, are you ready? so anyway thank you for attending our little class on the Buddhist record and we'll do it again sometime I'm sure and I hope that you will all continue to study the Buddhist record if you feel like it and if not study something else by yourself

[84:50]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ