This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfcc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. The interconnectedness of things. I want to first... I noticed Tova a couple of weeks ago did this, and it felt so good to hear it, so I'm just going to say I want to thank Rosalie for inviting me to do this talk. I want to thank all of my teachers, many of whom are in this room, and my root teacher, Tenjin Reb Anderson, for encouraging me to because study is where these talks come from, studying ourselves, studying each other, studying the way.

[01:11]

My name is Susan O'Connell. I'm a priest here at San Francisco City Center, and I've lived in this community for 18 years. And today I want to talk about, the name of the talk is To Be and Not To Be. A relationship, an exploration of the relationship between meditation practice, Zen meditation practice and therapy. Let's see what happens. when we have received Zen teachings from Asia. But they come in through the gate of Western culture.

[02:15]

And if you go back in time and you watch how the Buddhist truths, the Buddhist practices, how they find root in different countries and different cultures, you see how the practices and maybe the way of looking at these basic truths is affected by the culture in which they arrive. And it's probably one of the reasons why this practice, this way of thinking about the essence of our life has maintained for so long. So coming in To Western culture, we have a high value in our Western culture for psychological understanding of the self. It's very, very important in the West.

[03:16]

And so that orientation affects the aspects of Zen practice that are interesting to us. it orients us, that cultural bias orients us in a certain way. And it encourages us, this psychological cultural value, to understand the self, to develop a capacity for sharing and commitment and empathy and intimacy and to be able to self-soothe and accept the self and be spontaneous and creative and play well with others. These are values that are in our culture and are supported by this practice of psychology, by this study of the self in that way. So I am not a therapist, and I'm going to do some various times very interesting

[04:28]

big simplifications of ways of looking at therapy. And I apologize to any therapist in the room. I'm just trying to hold these thoughts in such a way that I can actually relate to them. So simplifying at first is helpful. So I think one way I think about psychology's purpose is to understand the content of self in order to succeed as an individual. Not that there aren't other kind of encouragements to help other beings, to be in commune with other beings, but there is an emphasis on individual growth and maturation. So with that, with that cultural bias, with that orientation, we sometimes approach Zen teachings with an interest in optimizing our ability to function in the world.

[05:33]

Calming the mind and simplifying our life, developing compassion, this whole mindfulness movement, right? A lot of it has to do with really, I mean, with excellent qualities, with developing excellent, excellent qualities. But in order to have a more successful life as we actually understand our life. Meditation, Zen meditation, Zen practices, I'm going to say on the other hand, although later I want to talk about how they're actually very connected, is about sitting still, watching the mind in a very simplified environment where it's easier to see the way, the process of mind. The process of mind.

[06:38]

So the meditative orientation is about process, not content. That would be one way of looking at the differences between the orientations of these two these two realms of health. There's health involved in both of these. Sitting still can create a sense of calm and a kind of a positive relationship to self, which can be used in the service of our agendas for individual success. Just by calming down. I don't know how many of you came to meditation instruction this morning in order to learn or to find out, is this a way that I can calm down and be happier in my life?

[07:43]

Calming down, being more present, not missing my life. but being able to actually continue my life as I understand my life to be in a calmer, kinder way. This is a doorway for practice for people, and it's an important doorway. We come in through the door we're most attracted to, and because of our Western orientation towards psychology and understanding the content of our thoughts, we often come in through that doorway. And we do, we can, through just simple meditative practice, develop an ability to tolerate change and develop a greater sense of patience and flexibility of mind, all of which can be applied towards

[08:49]

becoming better at what we already do. Just do it better. Do it better. Wholesome. Wholesome. And as we practice meditations, our mind can become more clear. So the thoughts and the feelings and the sensations become more evident. And we're tempted in meditation to ruminate on the content in the story and to study the lineage of our ideas. What's the lineage of that? Where did this idea come from? What's the history of this? What's the traumatic history of this, let's say? So we do become better acquainted with our habits of mind.

[09:51]

And then maybe we're drawn to be more intimate with our psyche after meditative practice. So there's a relationship there of what we see and how we're oriented when we often, not all the time of course, but often when we come to practice. So I noticed I put the word goals, which I'm going to use in a second, in quotation marks. It's not so great talking about the goals of Zen meditation. But I'm going to fall into that for a moment and say the goals of traditional Buddhist practice and those of Western psychological study have some clear differences. As I said, the Zen approach is that the study of Zen for the Zen meditator is primarily interested in clarifying the mind and understanding the process of mind. The process of mind.

[10:57]

And there's an interest, perhaps, that's a better word than goal, there's an interest in increasing a capacity for clear, soft, non-reactive, even-minded awareness in support of the process of seeing how conditioned phenomena are in substantial, impermanent, unreliable. And then when seeing this, when really seeing through, all the way through, and embodying this understanding of the arising of self being impermanent, unsubstantial, unreliable, we are able to cut the root of our human suffering.

[12:01]

That's the territory of Zen practice. In this process, there is a certain... potential spaciousness, internal sense of spaciousness and lightness of heart, which can be helpful in our relational life off the cushion. That sense of tolerance, that sense of spaciousness, those qualities I just described, warm, soft, aware, these are helpful in our relational life relating to others. And if we only focus on that, we can lose sight of the fundamental changing nature of thoughts and their lack of inherent existence. In preparing for this talk, other than, you know, really looking at my own life, which I'll talk about something that came up for me recently in a minute,

[13:14]

I did some reading, and this could be a lifelong study, so I am just entering into this investigation. But one of the books, which I think was a helpful book to me, is called Buddhist Practice on Western Ground by Dr. Harvey Aronson. So he said, in relationship to what I just brought up, He says, to the extent we get absorbed in the content of our minds, we miss the profound freedom beyond the ebb and flow of ordinary temporal existence. Looking with Western, psychologically oriented eyes, we see too little. So a simplified way... of saying this, of looking at these differences, could be that one, maybe the psychological realm, is about potentially self-improvement, that the Zen meditative realm is primarily about freedom from attachment to self.

[14:32]

Perhaps... The psychological realm emphasizes looking for happiness through self-improvement. And the Zen meditation approach perhaps says we look for happiness in not being involved in preferences, including a preference to be improved. We all want to be improved, right? All the advertisers know that. New and improved. New and improved. On the other side of that is a practice called radical acceptance. Dogen, who, for those, how many of you don't know who Dogen is in this room? Okay, good, thank you for saying so. We bring him up a lot in these talks, and he's an ancestor, died over 750 years ago, and he is the sort of grandfather of Soto Zen, an amazing philosopher, saw things in ways that we're still trying to understand, and...

[15:58]

So we listen to him, we read him, and one of his main statements in one of the chants we chant often is to study the self. He says to study the self is to forget the self, to forget the self is to be actualized by all things. So there it is. Study the self. Which self is this? Which self is this? Do we make a commitment to developing concentration and understanding the process of mind and nature of the unsubstantial self in order to be free of the root cause of suffering? Or do we pursue the details of the content of mind, which is in accord with our cultural value of knowing this relational self? So they're different.

[17:02]

But I have to confess that one of the reasons I'm looking at this right now is that I have had a bias that says one is better than the other. And I am challenging myself right now about that. Is one better than the other? They're different. So, without falling into that, either way, I'm going to tell you a little story. Recently, I don't need to read this story, it just happened, I know it. Recently, I was in a conversation, a kind of what we call difficult conversation with a man that I've known for a long time who let me know that he had felt hurt by something and during the meeting I heard what the hurt was I felt badly at my actions and I'm

[18:28]

made an apology more than once in this conversation. So the apology was made and the room, sitting in the room with this person, I felt extremely exposed and vulnerable. I could feel almost the tenderness of my body and the kind of tenderness of the energy field of my body. I was unprotected. by self-defense, by rationalization. Well, you know, I did do it, but you know, you did this. Somehow, that wasn't where the process was at that moment. It was really more about, oh, I'm feeling very vulnerable. So in that state, it was very quiet in the room. First, I saw several things arise, and this is the... I think the result of the training that I've received from my teachers, from sitting as us, and from all of you to observe what arises.

[19:37]

So what arose was, I really want this to end right now so that I can get out of this feeling of being vulnerable. But I could somehow, I had behind that was a question, would that be a helpful thing to do? to say I want this to end. And it felt about self-protection. It didn't feel about helpfulness. So I confessed. I said, I really, you know, I can feel like I'm really uncomfortable and I would like to say let's end the session, but I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to let myself end this. I'm not doing it. I'm going to sit here for a while. So the other person eventually... said, well, I think it's over now. So I didn't move on that feeling. I observed it. I confessed it. And then something else happened. And then, when he said, it's over, I could hear almost a thought arise that was like, well, now maybe, because I was so good, it's going to turn out well.

[20:47]

You know, maybe the result of this is going to be, it's going to go back to the way it was, and we're going to forget all about this, and I'm going to be completely forgiven. I could hear that arising. And behind that was, don't go there. And I confessed that. I said, you know, I'm really kind of hoping that things will turn out all right. And the other person didn't play into it. Didn't say, oh, yes, everything's going to be fine. They just said, uh-huh. Isn't it interesting that we hope for these kind of things? So that was confessed, it was dealt with, the other person supported me to not fall into that basket, which was still a way to get away from feeling vulnerable, from the self being not up there in a defended way. I'm not saying the self was completely gone, but I'm saying the defensive self was not active.

[21:53]

So then the other person stood up and started walking out the door, and then I heard in a very loud internal voice, I'm not going to say the word I heard, but it was basically... So... hatred, anger, trying to cut off the pain in that way, you know, trying to stop this sense of being vulnerable and not in control of whether this person liked me or forgave me, the connectivity was at risk. So that was the range, you know, wanting to end it and then also wanting it to be perfect and wanting to kill it. All of those things were arising in this And I was aware that what I was doing is what I call practice.

[22:57]

As surfing. Surfing these potential snags, you know? I was avoiding the hooks. Maybe that's more like it. I was body surfing, avoiding the hooks. And that felt there was a sense of, this is the... This is the most helpful thing to do right now. This is the most beneficial thing, is to not fall into any of those traps. Beneficial, you know, to whom, in what way, I don't know. Beneficial was what arose for me. And during that conversation, I could also see some of the habits that I have that come up in difficult conversations. When given feedback, I can get very strong and push back very hard. And other things, other things that I noticed. So here was this thing I call practice, and then here was this content coming up that, hmm, should this be also considered?

[24:08]

And I could feel my bias towards, well, practice is better. This is what I really should be doing, only practice, only that practice of surfing, wide, spacious, sitting with the vulnerability, not trying to get away from it, acceptance, those kind of practices. So what do you do? This is a time for a Zen story because it doesn't tell us what to do, but maybe it points. So here's a little story. Oh, I could hear you settle. Like, you know, like with a glass of milk and a cookie, right? There was once a Zen monk who had a very good mind and had learned to become very quiet. But she had never come to touch the source of complete stillness or peace.

[25:16]

One day she asked her teacher, may I go off to practice in the mountains? There's nothing else I want but to understand the true nature of myself and of the world. The master was a wise master and knew that she was ripe. And he said yes. So she took her bowl and her robe and she walked through various towns and villages. And as she left the last behind her, she began to climb the mountain. She came across an old man coming down the mountain with a large bundle on his back. Now, this was a disguised bodhisattva. It was Manjushri, Manjushri, the bodhisattva of wisdom. And Manjushri comes to help people when they're ready. So she asked the monk, oh no, Manjushri asked her, say friend, where are you going?

[26:30]

And the monk said, well, I practiced all my life and all I want to do now is really touch the center of the essence of life and to know it, to just know it. Tell me, old man, what do you know about enlightenment? So she was smart enough to ask somebody else, right? At this point, the old man simply let go of his bundle and dropped it to the ground. And, as in all good stories, the monk was enlightened. So, Manjushri drops the bundle. What was dropped? What was dropped? So the newly enlightened monk, after probably skipping around a bit or offering incense or bowing or expressing gratitude or one of the many, many ways that this can manifest, she looked at the old man confused about, well, what's next?

[27:45]

What do I do next? So she asked, so now what? And the old man simply picked up the bundle, put it on his back, and continued down the mountain. So what was picked up? What's put down, what's picked up? This is a very important question. To put it down, requires, I say, that we first see what's in it. What is it? Whether it's the what is it of Zen meditation practices or the what is it of psychological practices. We need to see what it is and not move from what it is.

[28:49]

Because if we don't face our life, What are we doing? So this is a quote from Mark Epstein, who is also someone who works and studies and practices in the realm of psychological practices and meditation practices. He's quite an amazing speaker and writer, and I recommend pretty much everything he's written. So he was the one that says, first, he says, to put it down, requires that we first see our sorrow, suffering, attachment, and pain. We face our life, we face our death. If we don't want to look at it, we can't let it go. And when we put it down, we can then pick it up and act skillfully. So studying, putting it down, picking it up, that's the whole of it. That's the whole process. Looking, putting it down, and picking it up.

[29:56]

When we pick it up, I say, we are in the marketplace of relational activity. And if we've thoroughly studied it and put it down, when we pick it up, we have gift-bestowing hands. We talk about that when a monk leaves the temple after having practiced After having practiced skillfully for X number of years, you go with our blessing back to the marketplace with gift-bestowing hands, studying, putting it down, and then pick it up. So if the it that we're putting down and picking up is the psychological understanding, I would say... the understanding of our habit patterns through the psychological understanding could be put hand in hand with the study of the self and then not taking ourselves too seriously.

[31:09]

So the way those come together, I'm very interested in. Understanding those habit patterns and not taking ourselves too seriously. Because those selves... are constantly evolving and changing, which allow us the possibility of going into either of those studies and there actually being the possibility for change. That's the exciting thing. What's going to move here if we pay attention to it? What's going to shift? Shifting in a direction that is aligned with our vow to be of help to be of service, to help people find freedom. I've been trying to see if I can pull out factors that might be aspects of both of these practices.

[32:17]

So one is, compassion is necessary in both. Compassion is necessary in both. I think maybe most of us understand that in the psychological process, having a warm heart towards oneself, letting that, giving attention to that, whether the heart is warm or not, and maybe finding ways to warm it up is a very helpful way to allow us to settle enough to look at the difficult things that are hard to see, that are painful to see. In Zen practice... We talk about kind of two aspects of meditation, shamatha and vipassana. So I would say in the shamatha side of practice, there's the kind of compassion which is wide open with nothing left out. So shamatha is the calming aspect of meditation practice where we settle...

[33:20]

into objectless meditative practice. And in that, that wideness, that nothing left out, is warm and soft, and possibly is the ground where compassion can develop. So I saw a little place where they help each other, where the compassion in... Both of those practices can help each other. So this is what I wrote. I propose that it's possible that the development of contact with the content of our psyche, supported by the practice of meeting it without turning away, provides the basis for creating a greater ground of compassion. The compassion that's the counterpart to the wisdom part or the insight part of meditation. So one, being intimate with the content of our psyche, which requires us to be more warm-hearted towards the pain, towards the history, towards the stories, can be a way to develop the compassion that's objectless, that's vast, that has no end.

[34:46]

I can see how they can help each other. Related to that, acceptance is necessary in both. And I am making a commitment at this point in my life to turn back towards understanding the parts of self that I have not seen so well. I spent a lot of time in therapy before I came to Zen Center. I stopped that practice for a long time. And because I find myself invited into a position of authority at Zen Center right now, and I can see how potentially harmful my lack of understanding of myself could be to others. Having any of you who, whether you're the parent of a small child, whether you manage one other person, wherever you have responsibility and authority over something, I think it's really important for us to understand how our authority and it being misguided in some way or ignorant of its motivation can be extremely harmful.

[36:15]

So in that light, I feel motivated this time to study the parts of the self that have been hidden or abandoned. They come up. I see it come up in meetings. I see it come up when somebody disagrees with something I care about. I see myself being a warrior. And behind that warrior, I think there's some rage. I think there's some fear. And I'm not so familiar with those aspects of personality, rage and fear. I'm not so practiced with those. So I'm making a commitment, and I think I'm also somewhat inspired by our recently deceased abbot, Steve Stuckey, who had a very... extensive practice of understanding the self through this thing called internal family systems.

[37:21]

And he was writing his PhD thesis on how that study comes together with Zen practice. And I stood by his bedside while he was dying, and one of the first things he said he realized he wasn't going to be able to do, because the doctors gave him three to six months to live, was I'm not going to be able to finish my dissertation. I think that's a real loss to us. So maybe, maybe there's a little piece of Steve that I got to carry, a little piece of him that makes me want to understand this. Oh, I love him so much. Oh, there's a lot more to say, but I am... It always happens to me. So the last thing, there are other aspects that I'm studying where both of these practices seem to share certain things.

[38:25]

The last one I'll bring up is intimacy. Intimacy. Intimacy. I'm going to tell a story. Okay, I'll tell the story. It's a very short story. It's a koan. It goes like this. For many years, Liangshan studied with Master Tongan and served as his attendant, which is a very intimate relationship, by the way. The attendant is there and following and just checking on the teacher all the time. What does the teacher need? That sense of giving over self into other, you know, and being invisible and being really... intimate. So one day, and one of the duties of the attendant is to help the teacher put the robe on and off.

[39:33]

We can do it by ourselves. But if there's an attendant, it's a real gift to the attendant to let the attendant put the kesa on and take the kesa off. It's very intimate. So one day as Langshan was handing Master Tongan his robe, he asked him, so Tongan asked his student, Longshan, what is the business beneath the patched robe? And with that question alone, because he was ripe, because he was ready, Longshan was what? Enlightened. Enlightened. And tears of gratitude flowed from his eyes. So in this state, Tongan asked his student if he could express his realization beyond the kind of tears that were flowing. And Longshan said, yeah, I can.

[40:33]

So Tongan asked him, what is the business beneath the patched robe? And Longshan said, intimacy. And immediately his teacher said, intimacy, intimacy. Intimacy beyond intimacy. We sit and we become deeply familiar with our body, our mind. But in addition to this intimacy with ourselves, Zen practice offers the possibility of leaping into a deeper intimacy, the intimacy that closes the gap between self and other completely. We journey, we sit seemingly alone, but we wake up together.

[41:46]

For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving. May we fully enjoy the Dharma.

[42:18]

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