This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfcc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. So good morning everyone and welcome to Zen Center. My name is Kyoshin Wendy Lewis and I'm a resident here at Zen Center. Today, I will be talking about the Diamond Sutra and about emptiness. I'm teaching a class right now on the Diamond Sutra, and I thought this would be the thing to address, since that's what the Diamond Sutra is teaching. So there's a koan in the gateless barrier that features the Diamond Sutra, and it's called lungtan, renowned far and wide. The case.

[01:01]

Deshan visited Lungtan and questioned him sincerely far into the night. It grew late and Lungtan said, why don't you retire? Deshan made his bows and lifted the blinds to withdraw, but was met by darkness. Turning back, he said, it is dark outside. Lungtan lit a paper lantern and handed it to Deshan. Daishan was about to take it when Lung Tang blew it out. At this, Daishan had sudden realization and made bows. Lung Tang said, what truth did you discern? Daishan said, from now on, I will not doubt the words of an old priest who is renowned everywhere under the sun. The next day, Lung Tang took the high seat before his assembly and said, I see a brave fellow among you monks. His fangs are like a sword tree.

[02:05]

His mouth is like a blood bowl. Give him a blow and he won't turn his head. Someday he will climb the highest peak and establish our way there. Deshan brought his notes on the Diamond Sutra before the Dharma Hall and held up a torch saying, Even though you have exhausted the abstruse doctrines, It is like placing a hair in vast space. Even though you have learned all the secrets of the world, it is like letting a single drop of water fall into an enormous valley. And he burned up all his notes. Then making his bows, he took leave of his teacher. And this is a little bit of a long koan, so a little bit more. This is the comment. Before Taishan crossed the barrier from his native province, his mind burned and his mouth sputtered. Full of arrogance, he went south to exterminate the doctrine of a special transmission outside the sutras.

[03:09]

When he reached the road to Lijiao, he sought to buy refreshments from an old woman. The old woman said, "'Your reverence, what sort of literature do you have there in your cart?' Deshan said, notes and commentaries on the Diamond Sutra. The old woman said, I hear the Diamond Sutra says, past mind cannot be grasped, present mind cannot be grasped, future mind cannot be grasped. Which mind does your reverence intend to refresh? Deshan was dumbfounded and unable to answer. He did not expire completely under her words, however, but asked, is there a teacher of Zen Buddhism in this neighborhood? The old woman said, the priest Lung Tan is about half a mile from here. Arriving at Lung Tan's place, Daishan was utterly defeated.

[04:15]

His earlier words certainly did not match his later ones. Lung Tan disgraced himself in his compassion for his son. finding a bit of a live coal in the other. He took up muddy water and drenched him, destroying everything at once. Viewing the matter dispassionately, you can see it was all a farce. So, the Diamond Sutra is a Mahayana text. And the Mahayana, the origins of the Mahayana are somewhere between 100 BCE and 100 CE. But the Diamond Sutra wasn't written until about 350 CE. And that's about 700 years after the death of the Buddha. So we have this text that's a kind of interpretation of interpretations.

[05:21]

So it's kind of moved along through other different philosophies. And it was translated from Sanskrit into Chinese by this scholar, multilingual tocharian named Kumrajiva, who also translated the Lotus Sutra and other Chinese sutras, Sanskrit sutras into Chinese. So the purpose of this... Diamond Sutra is to convey the perspective of emptiness. And that is it's the integrated perception of the interactivity of relative reality or individual consciousness and absolute reality or

[06:23]

visionary cosmos. So one way to understand this, and many of you may be familiar with this, is that it's the horizontal time and circumstances that are illuminated by the vertical eternity space. So this is how we live, or this is how we think we live? Is this... horizontal, going from past through present to future, which was referenced in the koan. But there's something else going on, which is this space, eternity, things that we don't often see or are aware of. But they're there, and we're often intuitively aware of them. But what's happening is this is kind of happening like this, There's not like a... It's got this movement to it.

[07:27]

So, according to Buddhism, you know, our perspective that relies on this relative reality or this horizontal is based in suffering and dissatisfaction. And, you know, it's like Taishan. He's on this mission to exterminate the doctrine of a special transmission outside the sutras. He's doing this horizontal thing. And he's carrying all of... He has this burden. He's carrying these commentaries. And he's separate from people. He has this sense that he's going to fix the world. So... at a state of suffering, even though we might not use that word ourselves for it. And, you know, that sense of suffering doesn't mean that relative reality is not, doesn't include happiness and success and accomplishment, but it's about how conditioned and conditioned those things are.

[08:45]

So what happens when there's an experience or a sort of intuition of this horizontal reality being informed by the vertical reality, then the conditions of suffering are apparent. They are illuminated. And then there is this possibility of freeing both ourselves and others from this circular impact of suffering. So when the tea lady asks him, you know, which mind, past, present, or future, do you, does your reverence intend to refresh? She's saying, you know, where are you? Are you in time? Are you in space? You know, what is your location?

[09:54]

And where will you be when you drink this tea? And here Taishan's been carrying all these commentaries, and he didn't get it yet. Yet, if he hadn't been carrying him, would he have been ready to get it? So he's humbled by the tea lady's question rather than resentful. This is a good sign. And he asks about the teacher, and he goes and finds Lung Tan, and they speak, as the Kohan says, for several hours. And then when Lung Tan blows out the lantern, the koan says, at this, Daishan had sudden realization and made bows. And Lung Tan said, what truth did you discern? So when I read this koan, I think, well, what is the lantern?

[10:56]

Usually when you think of a lantern, it's something you carry in front of you. you know, so you can find your way. It's like a flashlight. And you're always looking this way. You know, lighting up what you're sort of expecting and using this light to show the way. And I think that that sort of describes what Taishan was doing with the Diamond Sutra. He's kind of carrying this light out in front of him and seeing the world through his understanding. And when Lung Tan blows the lantern out then he can see all the darkness that's around as well somehow that darkness is illuminated by this light that he's carrying in front of him being blown out and I think that that's where this realization comes from this illumination of absolute reality which is often described as dark um

[11:58]

There's a story of a student talking to Suzuki Roshi and the person was saying they were very troubled and they asked Suzuki Roshi if they felt like they were lost in the dark. And he said, no, not lost in the dark, working in the dark. And it's like that. You're working in the dark and that is your sort of a way to feel that interactivity of this horizontal and the vertical. So as many of you know, our central abbot, Steve Stuckey, was recently given a terminal diagnosis and it It was quite a shock, you know, to his family, his students, colleagues, and I've been working very closely with him for a year and sometime a little before that on a practice level, and it was quite a blow.

[13:14]

So one evening around that first knowledge of what was happening, I was walking in the park and there was the light right now is very, has this autumnal slant to it, which it's always a surprise that every year it does this different thing the light does at this time of year. And the grass and the trees just were so intense and the shape of the trees and I thought you know there's no one around here who knows that this is happening to Steve and knows how I feel about it and here I am you know this is the whole world is happening around and the sky in the west was this kind of pearly gold

[14:23]

And I felt this moment of something like release from my sort of self-referencing this being something of mine, this experience I was having. And so as I was walking back, I decided to call Stephen, leave a message for him. And he answered the phone. And I was like, oh, I was a little... And then I talked to him for a bit. and heard his voice, and I could hear the pain in his voice too. And suddenly I could give to him his experience and accept my experience as it was going to unfold. And I think, you know, there's these moments like this where we have that sense of this time and eternity kind of working together, but they usually, you know, even though they're very significant, they often dissipate. It's kind of like after a sachine. the next day everybody's running around seeing movies and getting ice cream or whatever it is, and all of that work and energy, we all go back to our usual habits, right?

[15:39]

But that was a moment of freedom for me, and it doesn't mean that I'm not still grieving. So, What is a more sustained and transformative experiential access to emptiness? How do we give attention to that, and especially for its transformative quality? And there are techniques, and some of you have heard of them and tried them, and found the experiential connection with emptiness disorienting. I think it should be disorienting. But as you get used to it, there's kind of courage that can come out of that sort of fear and almost distrust of that.

[16:52]

In the... Sutra, the Buddha says to Sabuti, most wonderfully blessed were those beings who, on hearing this sutra, will not tremble nor be frightened or terrified. So why does he have to say that, you know? The sutra conveys the extremes... of relative and absolute reality by referring to the countless grains of sand in the river Ganges and to the unmeasurable extent of space in the ten directions. And so in relative reality, there's no real safe resting place because everything is reducible. to these uncountable parts, and we think we can measure them. I was thinking, you know, we put a decimal point and then a thousand zeros and a one, and we call that a measurement.

[17:57]

But, you know, what is the meaning? It's not measurable in a touchable way. You can measure anything on paper or even in your mind. But... In a lecture on the law of gravitation, Richard Feynman, I think that's how you pronounce his name, described the extent of gravity. The little model of the solar system, two planetary balls attracting, has to be expanded 10 million million times to become the solar system. Then 10... million, million times larger again, we find galaxies attracting each other by exactly the same law. He described galaxies that are 50,000 to 100,000 light years across, while the distance from the earth to the sun is only eight light minutes.

[18:58]

And there are thousands of galaxies that we know of and possibly thousands we don't know of. And in the sutra, the Buddha says, what do you think, Subhuti? Is the extent of space in the east, south, west, or north, downwards, upwards, in the intermediate directions, in all the ten directions, all around, easy to measure? And Subhuti replies, no indeed, O Lord. So Subhuti, one of the foremost of those who dwell in peace, accepts this context for bodhisattva activity. There are many teachings embedded in the Diamond Sutra, the Six Perfections, non-abiding self, skillful means, but they're all to be understood as unfolding through the interactivity of the relative and absolute in the context of emptiness.

[20:03]

So one way to be more comfortable with the concept of emptiness is through two approaches to spiritual practice. They're defined in the mystical tradition as the apathetic, or via negativa, and the cataphatic, or via positiva. So Zen practice is apathetic, deconstructive... You know, very simple. And the zendo is simple lines. Everything is black. The altar is very simple. And it's a mind-based tradition. And the instructions are... to use no techniques, which of course is a technique, but still use no techniques, this negation, negation, non-attachment. And the point of this, you know, is to undermine our habitual mind states.

[21:17]

But what about, in a certain way, I didn't think of this earlier, what about our habitual negative mind states? How do we... address those. So there's this cataphatic or via positiva method. So the apophatic or via negativa is associated with wisdom, and the cataphatic or via positiva is associated with compassion. So when you think of compassion, one aspect of it that I understand is prayer. In this cataphatic method, we're actually willing to ask for help. We call on the bodhisattvas, sometimes avalakiteshvara, but also bodhisattvas of wisdom, manjushri, bodhisattva of faith and practice, samantabhadra, we call on these bodhisattvas. And we do devotional practice, which we often don't think of, but when you make offerings, this is kataphatic, positiva.

[22:24]

So how... And all of these things are also, as I was saying, to undermine our habitual mind states. So Deshawn's approach to the Diamond Sutra is apathetic. It's mind-based and wisdom-oriented. He's going to teach it to others. But when he meets the tea lady and she asks her question... I think he suddenly is aware of the relational aspect of understanding. And he asks for help. Is there a Zen Buddhist teacher nearby? Help me. And the koan says that Lung Tan, you know, disgraced himself in his compassion for his son. Deshaun, help me, help me.

[23:29]

And this person talks to him for hours and hours and hours. So I think that during that conversation, he's actually accompanying Deshaun sort of back from his apathetic, deconstructed understanding of the Diamond Sutra and sort of bringing him back to this relational aspect of it. And there's the moment of integration when he hands him the lamp and blows it out. And as in many koans, it's like it's a little action there that marks the moment of realization and not the conversation so much. So in my practice life, after about 10 years, I sort of started noticing that the senior teachers, senior students and the teachers often were sleeping through everything, through meditation, through Dharma talks, sleeping in meetings, you know.

[24:49]

And I thought to myself, now I'm not a sleeping type person, and I noticed what I was was cranky. I was cranky and crabby. And I started to wonder quite what I was doing. You know, what? What is this? And what I think is, is I had immersed myself in this apathetic perspective of practice. And something was missing for me. And I don't think that's true for everyone. I don't know why people are falling asleep. I don't know what other reasons people could be cranky and crabby. But I... wondered about it. And also this sense that people got that we were sort of cold and rigid, you know. I thought, yes, you know. Okay, I see that too. So what does it mean? I don't know. Well, I'm not recommending this, but I started to think, you know...

[25:54]

And a lot of this was sort of intuitive. It sort of unfolded in a way. But I decided to give more attention to my creative things that I enjoyed. I always wanted to do watercolors, and somehow I started to do them. And it wasn't at all what I expected. It was... Anyway, things like that. And... It was a sort of how do I nurture myself? And I think basically I was asking for help, but I wasn't thinking of it as asking for help from a person. I was kind of asking for it from reality itself. And so I had this idea that what I was going to do is I was going to figure out a way to be a steady practitioner rather than a perfect one. And again, I don't recommend this.

[26:56]

I just, this was what was happening. So I had a way of thinking to myself, God, you're such a goody two-shoes, you know, and I, you know, as a perfectionist, I always, you know, I'm going to be there, and I'm going to be the best this, and I'm going to... So this was a big risk for me, not just... in terms of the community, but in terms of my own self-perception. And part of that is that the model or the measure of our community life is what we call the schedule. And I think that's perfectly appropriate. I'm not criticizing it. But what are we doing? You know, what am I doing in Zazen? What am I doing in my community life? What am I doing when I'm listening to someone speak in the Dharma? call. Meditation was the most important part for me, so that's what I decided to focus on.

[28:04]

I thought, I just need some space, and I don't know how else to say that. Again, I'm not being critical of it. Anything we do, and I think our community expectations are very important. It's all very complicated, how we live together, and what our expectations should be and are of each other. But I think for everyone, maybe, there's a point in your practice where you take a risk, and it moves in one direction or another, partly depending on what sort of person you are. Since I'm a wisdom type... I think my practice had to move in a direction of compassion and the cataphatic method and the via positiva. I did pastoral training and as a chaplain, I thought that was part of it.

[29:09]

So... This risk of losing their respect to the community because I wasn't a perfect student and who to talk to about what was happening to me. There were a couple of people who I could talk to. People who I couldn't talk to also helped me because you can't just say, oh, this is the right way to do it. You have to have something you're responding to. One of the things I think is most remarkable about Zen Center is its compassionate container for a variety of types of people. like the wisdom and the compassion types and how we interact with each other and how the container can accommodate that.

[30:19]

So what I'm speaking to is kind of what the koan is talking about, you know, this reaching this edge in this apathetic realm practice, and method. And what is the cataphatic response? Like for me, it was one thing. It might be something else for someone else. It could be just finding a particular teacher who the resonance is a cataphatic one, a loving one, I guess you would call it. But the point of it is Integration. How does that happen so that, you know, can, I think of it as sort of coursing in emptiness, finding our freedom. Sometimes they say it's like being who you are, which is impossible to understand, you know, in a concrete way.

[31:31]

So, You know, I couldn't prescribe this to myself or to anyone else. I don't think that's how it works. It's like Deshawn. He's carrying the Diamond Sutra and the tea lady asks him the question and it's just like that. It's not prescribable. But I think it's really important that the integration doesn't happen unless... You've done the apophatic work in terms of Zen Buddhism being an apophatic practice. That has to be there in order for there to be this shift, this message, this request for help. So in the Zen koans, I think that that sort of unprescribable moment or sort of stretched, complex moment is, there's often a kind of slapstick to it.

[32:55]

You know, it's not in words, as I said earlier. So this Taishan, handing him the lantern and blowing it out, this little slapstick moment. And for Tayshan, what he's released from is his arrogance. That's what I was calling my perfectionism and my goody two shoes. And it's painful to think of yourself that way because there's also this wonder of practice, which I'm... not just grateful for, I'm amazed by it. So before Tayshawn burns his commentaries, he says, even though you have exhausted the abstruse doctrines, it is like placing a hair...

[34:02]

and vast space. That's like all of these thousands and thousands of galaxies, and we're how many minutes? Light minutes from the sun, you know? And all this is happening. And even though you have learned all the secrets of the world, it is like letting a single drop of water fall into an enormous valley. So what is that perspective for, you know, releasing us from... I'm going to get this and I'm going to be a good student or whatever you might say to yourself. And what is the release like? And that's how he expresses it. And as I said, I don't think the commentaries were lost for him after he burned them. They were his skillful means, which is a lot of what the Diamond Sutra talks about. Skillful means are a raft. They take you across the river and then you step onto the shore and the raft is either for someone else or it floats away.

[35:11]

So in Zen Buddhism, this integration of apathetic and catathetic is called enlightenment or realization. And in the mystical tradition, it's called union or the unitive life, which is basically, you know, same thing. Union or the unitive life, it's called. And that is the context for bodhisattva activity. So a bodhisattva... can be described as a sharply intuitive and painfully practical person. His or her personality is not lost, but becomes more available to transformation. And realization for some reason, or for a good reason, is characterized by the enjoyment of the peaceful state.

[36:23]

It's not just this passive kind of peace. There's this enjoyment and engagement and an ability to deal with circumstances as they arise. Because the personality still remains, the person maybe doesn't always look like they're so skillful or anything like that. Enlightenment doesn't mean you stop your transformation process. You're still engaged. Otherwise, what would be the point? And that's where the sort of concept of bodhisattva activity arose is, well, so enlightenment. There you are by yourself and everything's great. But how does that help the world? What does that mean? So the bodhisattva stays engaged in their own way.

[37:26]

You don't have to suddenly become somebody who goes out and does all these good works, but there's a way that I think there's very many ways to serve and to be, what do you call that, a sort of a means for the insight of others. So... To end, I would like to propose a couple of exercises that I propose in my class for studying and accessing emptiness. So the first one is just for daily life. You know, as you find yourself making judgments about things and having preferences, can you consciously make an effort to step back from that? see what they're arising from, and kind of notice how your mind narrows around those preferences.

[38:36]

And the preferences are positive, negative, and neutral. And then in general, just allow more awareness of your bodily state and your bodily judgments. and what's nearby, and then stepping back to see how much more you can include. So this is experiential. It's not so much thought-oriented. And then in meditation, there's this period at the beginning of a meditation period which I call settling. And so I would say... after settling, give your attention to your breath. And this is our apathetic practice.

[39:39]

And at the same time, listen to all the sounds around you, which is this relational cataphatic process. So bringing those two together... And as the breath, you can count your breath if you've been given instructions for that. You can follow the breath as a sensation or a sensation in your horror. And you can also name the sounds, like car, bird, cough, sneeze. you know, rustling and just give things a name. And that's it. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma talks are offered at no cost and this is made possible by the donations we receive.

[40:43]

Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click giving. May we fully enjoy the Dharma.

[40:58]

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