I am to taste the truth of the Tathagata's words. I am to taste the truth of the Tathagata's words. I am to taste the truth of the Tathagata's words.

[01:23]

Mahāsattva Sutta Last time we discussed the general situation of how the Buddha taught and his life and stuff a little bit and about how he and his students were recluses and what that was and we talked a little bit about the meaning of that word and some interesting aspects of that. And how the Buddha in the sutra is telling the students that if you consider yourself to be recluses and others consider you to be recluses and support you as recluses, you better be worthy of the name and of your keep as recluses. And so here's how you should practice. And then the rest of the sutra is one thing after another,

[02:33]

building on, it's really a step-by-step total course of practice. At the end of each step the Buddha says, you might think that now that you did that and that and that, that's enough, but actually it's not enough yet. And then the next step comes and then he said, you might think that since you did that and [...] that, that's enough, but now there's another. And it goes like that. So we had discussed the first steps. First of all, this attitude, it's interesting, the other day in our practice committee meeting, Linda, who didn't come to the class, I don't think, Tuesday and hasn't read the sutra, brought up the same point. She just so happened, she didn't hear me talk about it,

[03:35]

but she just was bringing it up in terms of a discussion that we were having in the practice committee. She was saying, well, these dharmas of shame and fear of wrongdoing or self, Charlie gave us the alternate translations of self-respect and what's the other one? Decorum. Decorum, yeah. That the presence of these attitudes are crucial for practice. So that's the beginning, is having those attitudes. In other words, wanting to do something, wanting to do right, wanting to do positive and not negative, and being concerned about being positive and not negative within oneself and in others' eyes is the beginning. And then after that, a purifying, a conduct of body, speech and mind, but doing it in a particular way, doing it without congratulating yourself about it

[04:39]

or putting other people down who you think haven't done this as much as you have. And then after that, having a good livelihood, and then we talked a lot about restraining the senses, practicing being more quiet in relationship to the six senses so that there wasn't an automatic grabbing on, but there was more of a sense of spaciousness and choice. And then we discussed even further, even enjoyment and appreciation and gratitude within sensual experience rather than grab, grab, grab, you know, more and more and more. Then comes the next one, paragraph 9, on page 364, that's where we... So that was just a quick review, and now where we're at now is the next one. Oh, I had a question from someone who had said about the word evil. I always thought that was more of a Christian term,

[05:41]

and that it wasn't, it was, you know, greed, hate and delusion. But you said something about the fact that actually evil was the closest translation of the actual word. Yeah. What words do you think they have here, Charlie, do you know? For the word evil? I think it's just akushala. Yeah, it's just akushala, no? Akushala, I would think. Which means unwholesome. Yeah. So, yeah, I think generally we would use the word unwholesome or unskillful or something like that. But I was actually, I was working on, because of my schedule, I was working on my Sunday lecture, you know, today. And I'm going to talk about this a little bit. But I think we said some of this last time, that the fact that the word evil in the English language certainly carries with it the whole background of Judeo-Christianity.

[06:50]

Whether we ever studied Judeo-Christianity or not, since we're English speakers, we can't help but have that sense of that word. And why that word is so powerful and so difficult is that the nature of evil in Judeo-Christianity has to do with the fact that some supreme power ordained that this is the way it should be and not that way. And so there's always a very strong sense of approval and disapproval and guilt and remorse and rebellion and so on and so on associated with the word evil. Because, you know, you should be a good girl and you should not be a bad girl. And if you're a bad girl, somebody will not like it. And then you have to hide away from the one who might not like it. And so this could inspire somebody to want to do evil just out of spite. Because why should they do that to me? So all of this is involved, I think, with the word evil in English.

[07:55]

But in Buddhism that's not the idea at all. The idea in Buddhism is, and this is what I'm thinking about in my talk, is the idea of evil in Buddhism has to do with discovering the unworkability of the ordinary approach to life, recognizing that one needs a new approach, saying that in order to do that new approach, there's a path with steps in it, and morality is part of that path. So it's quite practical. It's like cleaning up your act so that you can go on and do what you need to do in order to achieve happiness. And there's no sense of approval and disapproval and some supreme power ordaining that this is right and this is not right. It's more like conduct that will lead to happiness versus conduct that will lead to suffering. So, however, like I say, there are some Buddhist authors, and this translator is one of them, who feels like Buddhism can take the English word evil

[08:58]

and reinterpret it and give it a new sense. And there's debates about that. Should we not use the word evil because it's so loaded with that stuff? Or, and the other argument is, well, let's use the word evil and recapture it, purify it of those connotations. So. Okay? Oh, sorry. I also heard that in the history of the word, it used to not have such extreme connotations, but it was just referred to in a very minor accent. It's only in the last couple hundred years, it's come to be this very negative force in the universe. Yeah, same with the word sin, you know, evil and sin, which are related conceptually. I think that often, I forget how it's discussed,

[10:01]

but the idea of evil and sin as being unwhole, the opposite of wholeness. Sin means to lose one's wholeness. So, even from the standpoint of Judeo-Christianity, there are authors and thinkers within that tradition who are also trying to do the same thing with the word evil and the word sin, you know, to reinterpret them. They're kind of stuck with them as words, as their English words, and they've been used in the tradition. So they're kind of stuck with those words, or we have some options, because in our tradition, the words are not, we're not using those words, and we can choose, pick and choose which English words we want to use. So. Yes. Well, I'm wondering, back to this text, that he's telling them here, we will undertake and practice those things that make one a recluse, that make one a brethren. Second paragraph, page 362. So I'm wondering, is this, actually I have two questions. Is this kind of like a how-to, a how-to program?

[11:03]

And, like, if you do these things, if you follow these rules, then you will be a Brahmin. And then how does this, you're saying this, he's just talking to the recluses. Now how does that differ from, sort of like, the general program of liberation? It doesn't, really. It doesn't. I think that the program of liberation fundamentally is for recluses. You can use the word recluse to mean all those seeking liberation. So, it's the same path. I think the Buddha spoke about it in different ways, in different contexts. And this program, the ABC program, is slightly different. In other sutras he talks about the ABC program in slightly different ways, depending on the situation and the audience. Pretty much the same, but sometimes a little bit different. But, yeah, I think, as we said also last time,

[12:07]

we have to understand recluses to be us too. You know, that we're practicing in this way, and have the same aspiration that they do. Is there something further? There seems to be something behind your question, or something that you had in mind. Yeah, I guess that was it. It does seem like the Eight Noble Path, or it seems like, I'm just wondering, how does this differ? How does it differ from the Eightfold Path? Right, I mean, it goes on to talk about past lives and things like that, but this seems to me that it's the same thing. Yeah, I agree with you. I think this is another way of talking about the Eightfold Path. We could analyze this sutra and look at the different things that the Buddha lays out, and we could say, okay, let's map the Eightfold Path over here,

[13:07]

and we could put them all in different members of the Eightfold Path pretty easily. You know, here we have right, we could put the first one under right attitude or right thought, we could put the next three under right conduct, and we could put paragraph seven under right livelihood, and so on. Right mindfulness, right concentration, and so forth. We could certainly do that. And that was what the Buddha did. Basically, most of his teachings were overlapping formulations and lists. And that's very helpful, actually. If you understand a teaching, and you study it, and you develop it within a certain framework, and then you hear another framework superimpose over it,

[14:09]

which overlaps, as this sutra would, overlaps the teachings that are in there. There are other teachings involved in that that aren't partly, but then when you see the overlap, you say, oh, now I see that whole thing that I was studying in a new light. Now I understand the Noble Eightfold Path in a different way. Hearing it explained in that way is very different, see. Even though, yes, it's the same, but now I understand it from this angle, from that angle, from that angle. You know, remember that all of Buddha's teaching, the whole idea was that the Buddha struggled through to liberation. And when he was liberated, he said, this is fantastic. I feel really better now. And, plus, everybody, plus, everybody already, I can see, you know, with my eye of liberation, that everybody already doesn't even need to do this, because they're already there. I mean, they probably don't see that,

[15:12]

but the place where I'm at, I can see that. Not only that, but I know that they will never understand what I'm talking about. And there's no need for them to understand. So I'll just cool out and walk up and down by the river here and enjoy my life. That was his attitude. So, in other words, what he had to teach was something that he couldn't explain. And he knew it from the start. And he knew from the start that it would be hopeless to explain it. But then he was urged to teach by various kinds of beings, and he decided that he would, because he kind of got the idea, well, maybe somebody would be able to understand something if I could explain it in a nice way. So then he began, you know, 45 years of trying to explain the unexplainable from different angles. So it's like he had this thing there that was not explainable and not really understandable, but somehow somebody could get it.

[16:14]

So he said, well, let's look at it from this angle and explain it and everything. And everybody said, oh, that's what it looks like. And he said, well, look at it from this angle, though. And they said, oh, that's what it looks like. And he said, well, but how about this angle? And all these different angles, and little by little a kind of a picture emerges, but you never get the whole picture, because the nature of what Buddha realized can't really be explained. So there's all kinds of different explanations, each one of which adds a little bit of appreciation for what Buddha achieved and what our life is, but none of which actually explains the whole story. That's why in Buddhism you don't attach any doctrines, because the doctrines don't say what it is. They just indicate a direction that we can sort of work toward. So, like that. I think it's interesting. Whenever I read sutras, I tend to think of it as,

[17:16]

it can seem sometimes, when I'm reading several different sutras, that they are more parallel sometimes. And then if I just look at it as the Buddha using his expedient means, and just look at it with that context, then that automatically kind of carries me over to some other perspective. Like if I try and look at it as just me, as me, looking at this specific teaching, or this specific sutra, then I can be very narrow into it, and not open up to the fact, and see how it's a teaching, and see how it guides people. But if I look at it as his expedient means, as using his expedient means, that perspective,

[18:18]

that really makes it not a me or them thing, but makes it just a, oh, he's just using his expedient means. I fall in that little tunnel, and I get nowhere to go. Good? Okay, so we'll go on a little bit with moderation in eating. Don't forget, these guys only ate one meal a day. Eating is a big problem, you know, for monks and nuns. I was talking to Aya Kena about this, and she had spent a lot of time in Asia, living the life of a nun, and she was really fed up

[19:20]

with the whole eating problem, because people give you a lot of food, all kinds of food, and you're only eating one meal a day, so it's very easy for them to stuff themselves. You see? Because you just get all this food, a giant big bowl heaped up, and you might eat for a couple hours, you know, just sort of sit there and stretch out your lungs for hours. And she said that that's what would happen. It was a problem, because it's very beneficial for the lay people, you see, to give food. And they want to give food, and they want to give it lavishly. And she said the whole thing really became too much, and became counterproductive to practice. She was very against the whole thing. Anyway, you can imagine that the Buddha would not have brought this up, speaking to the recluses. It weren't a problem. I think it was probably a difficult thing, that they were becoming gluttonous

[20:20]

with all this free food. I find that if I'm paying for the food, I eat less, you know. Did you ever notice that? Or, I mean, like, you go to a restaurant, and you pay a lot of money for the food, you want to eat it all. You think, well, I'm going to eat all this food. Well, the Buddha aren't chubby. Yeah, that's what it means to be chubby. See, that's the problem we have here, because here, we're like, as a resident, I'm paying for the food, but the problem is, I'm also spending it all day while I'm working. Yeah, well, it's kind of hard to figure out what part I'm spending. Well, there's lots of food there, and it's free in the sense that if you go back for seconds, nobody says, put $5 on the table. If they said, put $5 on the table, you might not go back for seconds. Take bigger first. Yeah, take bigger first. Anyway, probably they had a problem with this. So, one more is to be done, because you should train thus. We will be moderate in eating.

[21:20]

Reflecting wisely, we will take food neither for amusement nor for intoxication, nor for the sake of physical beauty and attractiveness. I guess that means other food. Yes, I don't know. But only for the... Because eating food does not make you beautiful and attractive, I guess. I mean, not eating food would be... Huh? That is beautiful. Maybe, yeah. I guess maybe you would eat... Not so as not to be skinny or something. But I'm not sure whether it means that you would be physically beautiful and attractive or the food is attractive. But only for the endurance and continuance of this body, for ending discomfort and for assisting the holy life, considering. Thus I shall terminate old feelings without arousing new feelings, and I shall be healthy and blameless and shall live in comfort. Now, because you may think thus, and then the same formula is repeated in all the things listed that the bhikkhus have thinking,

[22:24]

you know, that I've done all this, etc. So this is the practice of moderation in eating. And, you know, it seems ridiculous, you know, eating food for amusement. But of course, it's very common. We all do that, right? I'm bored, I'm tired, I'm feeling unloved or whatever. So let's eat more, eat something. What about just eating dessert at all? I need this sugar and my body needs it for strength. I think we should just have it at dinner so it isn't a separate thing. Well, I mean, sure. And of course, you can imagine that if somebody were practicing with this and saying, I'm going to really practice with this, practice the teachings of this sutta, I could see where somebody could say,

[23:25]

well, you know, let me think about this now. Let me only eat what is necessary. Only eat what is necessary for, what do we say in our meal, champ? To support life and to practice the way of Buddha. Which is just the same as this says. To support life and practice the way of Buddha. So it doesn't say anything here about that one should not enjoy the food. It doesn't say that. Or find it unpleasant. It doesn't say that. But not to, in other words, not to get grabby. The same way that we talked about, I think, guarding the sense doors, we would also say the same thing in relation to the food practice here. That it's not about repression or thinking of food as bad or any of the sense doors as bad. Rather, having a sense of gratitude and non-grabbiness and taking what's necessary and not taking more than what's necessary. And realizing that the purpose of eating the food

[24:28]

is to preserve the body for practice. And practice is the most important thing. So, now, given all that, what someone's meal practice would be can be a great deal of variation there. One person might say, no desserts. Because that's not necessary for healthy body and strong practice. And I think that that would be, seems like that would be quite proper in relation to this passage. But the reality is that the monks eat huge amounts of rich food. That's what I came to say. Because the people love the monks and nuns and want to give them wonderful offerings. And so they're heaping up stuff. I remember I went to a retreat one time recently, a few years ago, with Ajahn Amaro, who's a real bona fide monk in this tradition. And so the people who practice in this tradition

[25:29]

are trained that monks are not allowed to take their own food. Literally, if a monk comes to our table here, the fey table, they can't serve themselves. They'll stand there, you know. And they'll never eat if someone doesn't serve them. So, Ajahn Amaro sat there with his bowl and people just started putting stuff in it. I mean, he had giant piles of stuff, you know, cakes and cookies. It's very odd because there's only one bowl. So it all gets piled in the same bowl. Cakes, cookies, pizza, sauerkraut, pickles. It's all in the same bowl. And somehow they made a mistake. The people made a mistake and thought I was a monk too, because I was wearing my robes and everything. So they thought I was a monk like him and they started doing that to me too. It was pretty great, you know. I sat there. I mean, they wouldn't let me do it. I just sat there, you know. They wouldn't let me do anything. I brought a lunch, but forget that. They were blocking all this stuff on. And then, I mean, there it is, right?

[26:30]

They had to eat it all. Well, I mean, you get it away. You pass it on. In fact, you're not supposed to keep it. You're not supposed to keep it. So, you know, Ajahn Amaro was giving it away to people and I was giving it away to people. But, of course, you could see where it would be hard to... So, you know, there's a certain sense of graciously accepting an offering. But then, how much of the chocolate cake do you have to eat to be gracious? And where are you being gracious? And where are you being, you know, crossing the line? So, that must have had an effect. Well, doesn't that defeat this paragraph? It takes away any kind of mindfulness when you relegate that to some external source. You mean the other people who are eating? Yeah, they're piling food. Where is your own personal sense of wakefulness and mindfulness? I guess you could only eat what you feel your body needs and leave the rest. That's the idea. Isn't there a lot of wastefulness

[27:31]

implicit in that process? Oh, yeah. I mean, that's what Ayatollah Khayyam was complaining about. And don't they only eat until noon and they don't take in solid food? Right, right. So, is there a fixed eating period? Yeah. Well, I think there's, like, customs in different monasteries, but I think the only rule is that they not eat afternoon. So, the lunch can go from 10 to 12 or whenever they want to start eating. It can go from 8 in the morning to 12. Okay. I'm supposed to eat the afternoon to be in sports today. No, no, they can't. After the sun is high, no more eating. So, actually, it keeps them fit and thin. That's a good way to... If you don't eat afternoon, then you won't gain much weight, even if you eat a huge meal in the early part of the day. So, anyway, this is something that everybody works with, right? We all work with this. I always try to work with this, too. It's hard work, actually. How much do you eat? How much is necessary?

[28:32]

Yes? I cannot notice that the last line of the instruction is, "...thus such will terminate all feelings arising without arising in feelings, but be healthy and blameless and sheltered in comfort." It isn't the idea of becoming uncomfortable. No, no, that's what I'm saying. It's not about if food is bad or if one shouldn't enjoy food. Yes, and I think this business about terminating old feelings without arousing new feelings, I think, has to do with grabbiness. In other words, not setting in motion greed. One thing I have noticed in trying to practice restraining eating and other things like that is the obvious thing that when you practice grabbiness, it leads to grabbiness. When you practice restraint, in the midst of grabbiness, it's very difficult. But once you practice restraint, it's much easier and it's pleasant.

[29:33]

You know, like if I try to eat less, at first it's like I'm denying myself. But after a very short while, it's easy to do that. At first it's difficult to do it and then one doesn't do it and then one tries and one doesn't do it. So one's always increasing grabbiness which then makes restraint more difficult and a little bit of restraint, a little bit of grabbiness, a little bit of struggle. But once you kind of establish a pattern of restraint, I find, maybe it's just because I'm getting old or something, but I find that it's actually more pleasant and more comfortable to practice restraint, more enjoyable actually, than it is to practice grabbiness. And that's why I think the idea is that if you eat this way, you will be comfortable, you'll be more comfortable. Because eating a lot makes you uncomfortable. And like I say, with me too, I have bad digestion. So I get instant karma

[30:37]

if I overeat or something. I really feel it. This also is a factor of age. The older you get, the more it's like that. So if you can be mindful when you're eating, then you will be healthy and blameless and comfortable. And also, you know, it's better than meditation. If you eat a gigantic, big meal and then you go to meditate, it doesn't work as well as being moderate and eating. So this is something I recommend to everybody to figure out how do you practice with eating and how could you, what's the best way for you to work with this kind of instruction. Wakefulness. What more is to be done? Be good as you should train thus. We will be devoted to wakefulness during the day

[31:37]

while walking back and forth and sitting. We will purify our minds of obstructive states. In the first watch of the night while walking back and forth and sitting, we will purify our minds of obstructive states. In the middle watch of the night, we will lie down on the right side in a lion's pose with one foot overlapping the other, mindful and fully aware after noting in our minds the time for rising. After rising in the third watch of the night while walking back and forth and sitting, we will purify our minds of obstructive states. And then comes the formula that's repeated every time which gets a little bit longer. What do they call those songs that are like that where you keep repeating another thing? Is there a refrain? No, not a refrain because it's progressive because it gets bigger. Like the Twelve Days of Christmas. Yeah, it's like the Twelve Days of Christmas, you know. Three French hens, four turtledoves in a far tree, in a fair tree.

[32:37]

Like that. It keeps getting one more bigger every time. So it's kind of like that. Maybe they sang this at one time. Maybe. Yeah, they probably did. Anyway, so it gets a little bigger every time. This is very interesting, of course, because this describes their day, their daily schedule and what they did. And during the day, they did walking and sitting practice. And then all day long. And I used to know it. Does anybody know? Do you know, Charlie, how they divide it up? Do you know? The watches? The watches of the night? No way. I once read about that. I used to know. I think that there were maybe four watches of the night. I mean three watches of the night, four hours each or three hours each. I forget how it was. But anyway, they divided the night up into so many what they call watches. And so during the first watch of the night, they would also do sitting and walking.

[33:40]

And during the middle watch of the night, they would sleep. And this is how they would sleep. They would lie down in the lion's pose, which is the pose of the Buddha entering prayer nirvana with one foot. I think that's what it is. With one foot overlapping the other. And they would note when they went to lay down when they would wake up, which is an amazing thing. You can wake up like that. In other words, I've done that a lot. You lay down and you say, now I will wake up at 5 a.m. And you will. It's amazing. And you have to be very mindful in order to do that. So that's what they did. They would lie down mindfully and fall asleep. In other words, following their breath. I mean, of course, they don't do it like that. This was their effort. And then they would note time for rising.

[34:42]

And then in the third watch of the night, they would sleep one watch of the night, which is probably three to four hours. Then they would wake up in the third watch of the night, and they would walk back and forth and sit. And that was their day. So they didn't work or anything. That's why they were begging for their food, because they wouldn't work. They must have had a time, certainly they had a time when they were walking back and forth from place to place. Maybe that's how they traveled. When they would travel, they would walk up and down and then sit a little bit on the way. And maybe when they were walking they would get their bowls out and receive their food. It doesn't talk about their meals here. I remember hearing about a possible repeat where they had a practice of trying to tell if you fell asleep on the in-breath or out-breath. Yeah. Yeah, they always talked about that, yeah. At night when you go to bed. Wait, you mean you recall it the next day?

[35:46]

Yeah. Well, try to be aware. In other words, try to be aware at the moment of falling asleep. That you're falling asleep. Yeah, you can do that. That's kind of neat. I'll try it tonight. So, this wakefulness is not, you'll see, because the next one is mindfulness. It's not the same as mindfulness. It's sort of like, it's a little bit like the first one. I mean, it's not the same as the first one, but, in other words, before you can practice moral conduct, a precondition of that is an attitude of wanting to do good and not do bad. You have to have that attitude, that spirit. Otherwise, the practice of moral conduct is very mechanical. And it's not really, it doesn't come from the heart. So, you have to cultivate an attitude.

[36:47]

Because, of course, one can do everything right and not do anything wrong, and not really have an inner spirit of wanting to do, you know, wanting to really have good conduct. You can just have a spirit of wanting to not screw up and follow rules. So, it's necessary to have a strong inner attitude first. So, that's why in the case of moral conduct, the inner attitude is first described. And here, this attitude of wakefulness is basically sometimes translated as diligence. In other words, an attitude of, yes, my desire is to be awake, to be alert, to want to purify the mind, to want to really understand what arises in the mind, and to let go of things that arise in the mind that are non-wholesome, and to promote things that arise in the mind that are wholesome. That's my attitude. So, that's the wakeful attitude, which you should have all day long. So, that's how you practice. And then, remember,

[37:48]

this is kind of like a step-by-step thing. So, practice having practice morality, having practice guarding the senses, having practice moderation and eating. Now, you can begin to practice those things that approach meditation. And it begins with a desire to be alert and diligent and wakeful. And then comes mindfulness practice. What more is to be done? You should train thus. We will be possessed of mindfulness and full awareness. We will act in full awareness when going forward and returning. And this is all more or less quotations from the Mindfulness Sutra, and it's repeated many, many, many times throughout the sutra, this little formula about awareness. We will act in full awareness when going forward and returning. We will act in full awareness when looking ahead and looking away. We will act in full awareness when flexing and extending

[38:50]

our limbs. We will act in full awareness when wearing our robes and carrying our outer robe and bowl. We will act in full awareness. So, this is interesting. You know, like, we've lost this. We used to talk about this a lot more. Remember, J. Hiroshi was always talking about wearing robes as a practice. Because in the Mindfulness Sutra, they considered the wearing of robes to be a mindfulness practice, which is definitely true. And so, we used to emphasize that people should wear robes. In other words, encourage people, wear as possible and practical for them. If you have robes made for them or to purchase robes, that they should do so. And it's true. When you wear robes, like, you've got big long sleeves, you might catch it on something. So, you have to really be careful how you... You know, when you have, like, wear robes with Soto Zen sleeves,

[39:51]

you can't stand like this. Because your sleeves will drag in the mud. You have to stand like this. You actually have to be mindful all the time. You actually can't... You know, so the way that all the things that you do, you have to always be taking care of your robes. It's annoying in a way. But it is true that it does force you to be mindful. And if you wear the Raksu or Okesa, then you have to take care of those robes. You can't spill things on them or, like, treat them stupidly. You have to be mindful. So, of course, you could say that this is true always. And it's true. Whatever clothes you're wearing, I can be mindful. But, in fact, it's more helpful to wear clothes which more easily promote mindfulness. And I find that definitely when you wear robes, you

[40:52]

have to move differently, conduct yourself differently, your whole body language has to change. Actually. You can't, like, run around and, like, go to the snack area and stuff a bunch of peanut butter in your mouth when you're wearing robes. You can't. You just can't do that. So, it really is a practice. So, anyway, all these things, these are all details of living that we will apply awareness to. And it begins with all the stuff about awareness of the body. This is literally stuff. Literally being aware when you walk forward and when you walk backward and when you go somewhere and when you come back. Literally being aware when you're looking ahead and when you're looking backwards. Being aware when you're extending your limbs and so on and so on. Literal details of this walking and moving and wearing the robes, holding the bowl. And, uh, yes, you had a comment. Oh, I was just going to say, it just took me right back to the beginning

[41:52]

of this about how you're perceived when you're wearing the robe, too. That's part of it, too, yeah. And, you know, how this whole story then. And I think about that with the people around here when I see them in their civvies or see them in their robes and it's almost like you're, like, letting your hair down. You don't have your robes on. Yeah. But it's just an interesting contract and perception. But it's such a funny thing. Like, you know, we don't think of that. The idea that wearing clothes is a practice. This is not what we think of. But actually, this is what they're saying. It's true in our practice that wearing clothes, as we heard, both of you were at the ceremony the other night, we heard wearing clothes is a practice. A lot about how wearing clothes is a practice. It's a whole thing. So that's where all that tradition comes from.

[42:52]

That was really a moving ceremony. Yeah. It was something very special. So, we will act in full awareness when eating, drinking, consuming food, and tasting. We will act in full awareness when defecating and urinating, when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, and keeping silent. I assume this means like, not leaving the toilet? Hmm? Well, you know the famous story about Sensei Nima. No. What is it? Well, he used to always say you know, like, be fully present, be fully mindful. Do one thing at a time. You know, when you walk, just walk. When you sit, just sit. When you wash the dishes, just wash the dishes.

[43:55]

So, one day one of the students came in and caught him eating breakfast and reading the paper. You know? And they said, you always say, just do what you're doing. How could you be sitting there reading the paper and eating breakfast? And he said, yes, but I'm just reading the paper. So, uh, we have to figure out whether Sensei Nima was goofing off and making a good excuse. Or, whether he was really serious and that there's a way to read on the toilet and be mindful. Don't you think it was? Also, we should keep in mind that Buddha was probably illiterate. You think Buddha was illiterate? Yeah, he probably couldn't read. Well, he was a son of a higher class person in this community. I think at that time the reading was mostly merchants.

[44:56]

I never thought of that, but yeah, I guess it could be. I think that's why the sutras weren't written down. Maybe he was better off. Maybe that's our problem. If we were up there we'd probably be able to get enlightened. That's definitely my problem. Only one of your problems. So anyway, I think it's really good to think about these things and whether or not in all these things are training modes, so whether or not it's good or bad to read on the toilet, it's certainly a good idea to try not to really let go

[46:00]

of all such habits. The thing is that sometimes people have the idea that this is one of the troubles with the formality of our practice is that you could think that since there's all this formality and all these things that you do, you could think that, well, I'll do all these things and this is the practice stuff and then I'll do it all very carefully in the right, and I'll be mindful and then when I walk out of there I'll be a little sloppy, twice as sloppy because now that I'm so mindful, I need to have a break. But this sutra is telling us that the practice is not in a certain place in certain circumstances, but it's in every single act of body, speech, and mind we need to be aware, and this is a very common, not doing this is a common problem

[47:01]

of Zen students, and being really good and really aware in formal situations but having little corners in your life where you allow yourself to be not aware. So you've got to be aware all the time and make the effort anyway. Make the effort. So, I would like to recommend that you consider this practicing this way when you're walking instead of well, where do you think your mind is when you're walking usually? Yeah, or not sure where it is even. Or lots of places. Or lots of places. There's so many times during the day when you're actually when it's not at all clear where your awareness is because there's a kind of preoccupation of the mind. I think that that self-centered thoughts

[48:03]

are pervasive. Without awareness, self-centered thoughts are pervasive and they don't appear as self-centered thoughts. They just don't appear at all. You don't know where you are or what's going on. You actually don't really know particularly what's going on. And usually there's a certain level of dull self-concern or self-worry going on. I think it's very common that you're a little bit worried or you have a mood, right? There's a mood that goes on throughout your day. And I'm a little depressed or I'm feeling good or bad or worried or something that usually has to do with me. Which is what's occupying my mind. So actually I don't really know what I'm thinking, what I'm doing, where I'm going. So this is saying don't be in a fog. When you're walking, pay attention to walking. That doesn't mean that if you are in a mood and do have a state of mind

[49:04]

that you should ignore it. But it means that by applying awareness to the walking you will be more aware of the mood, state of mind and so on. And also you'll be able to face it and let go of it. So I would recommend that particularly with walking, I almost always practice awareness of walking when I'm walking somewhere. It's very restful and really promotes awareness. So you could practice that. And practicing awareness when looking at things, when speaking, when listening, when brushing your teeth, when washing your face. That's a really good one, the practice of when you get up in the morning and you're going to wash your face. Don't get into a whole chapter on how to wash your face. Go into the bathroom and wash your face. That's why there's a verse. I think the verse is still in the bathroom. It's about where water comes from

[50:06]

and all this stuff. So you can actually recite that verse and when you put water on your face think of it. The miracle of where the water comes from is just feeling the water on the face and loving kindness towards your own face as you're washing your face. This is a really great practice. And putting on your clothing mindfully, carefully and so on. All the little things. You maybe like the thing to do is pick two or three or one thing in your day that you might decide to practice awareness with and see how that is. And then you can extend that from there. This is very thorough. It really stands for all the things that you do physically that you would be aware of and try to practice awareness of. And it doesn't say this in here, but what happens

[51:07]

is when you do that is that the mind comes much more into focus. You begin to see what it is that has been going on all along but you didn't notice. The dullness of the mind, the inaccessibility of our own minds to us suddenly they become accessible and we begin to notice. And this is where we can become quite uncomfortable realizing boy, I've been thinking that? Whoa. This was the contents of my mind. You get to see the degree of self-concern that we have and all the fear and the greed and the anger and the ill will and all the things that are in us become more apparent with the practice of mindfulness. And that's why the next one has to do with abandoning the hindrances. Because you see, this is a very experiential path. It won't do to read a list of the hindrances

[52:09]

and say, OK, these are bad, I'm not doing it. Before we do that, you have to practice mindfulness so we really get to see and understand how the hindrances manifest in ourselves and really see how we have sense desire, how we have laziness and restlessness, how we have tremendous doubt, not sure what's wholesome and what's unwholesome, not sure we even care to approach the wholesome and not approach the unwholesome. All those things really become apparent when we practice mindfulness. So, when we really understand and appreciate the existence of the five hindrances in ourselves, and how they cause suffering and unpleasantness, then we begin letting go of them. Because we have to let go of the hindrances before we can enter into the deep meditation

[53:11]

states that will show us how life really is. So this will be the last one. Let's do this one about the five hindrances and then we'll stop. What more is to be done? Here, Bhikkhus, a Bhikkhu resorts to a secluded resting place. Forest, a root of a tree, a mountain, a ravine, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a jungle thicket, an open space, a heap of straw. So now we're going to start meditating. We've gotten all this... Look at all the things we did. We cultivated an attitude of desire to do good and not to do bad. Real interest in that. We worked on body, speech, and mind to clarify what we're doing. We worked on our livelihood, guarding the sense doors, moderation

[54:13]

in eating, worked on an attitude of alertness and a real desire to study the mind and understand, and then practiced awareness, all of which now brings into view the real shape of our mind and our own delusion. Now we're ready to sit and clarify that delusion. So this is like when we sit in Zazen and all sorts of things come up in the mind. This is natural that this happens. And we need to clarify and let go of those things that are in the mind because we do want the mind to be very still, but we can't browbeat the mind into being still. You've got to let the mind settle and let the hindrances fall away. So that's what this settling of the mind is what's discussed here as abandoning the hindrances. So you've got to go and find a nice place to meditate, a secluded place. And this is how

[55:14]

they practiced. In the old days, I don't really know whether it was the Chinese or the Japanese or both who invented this way that we practiced together. But in India, sometimes they practiced together, but usually they would go here and there, scattered around the forest, outdoors, you know, if they had a warm climate. So they would practice outdoors, mostly living outdoors all the time, and sitting by themselves. On returning from his alms round, after his meal, he sits down, folding his legs crosswise, setting his body erect, and establishing mindfulness before him. So this is, I always thought this was an interesting

[56:15]

idea, establishing mindfulness before him or before her. What does that mean? Well, it's hard to exactly say, but I think it means you have to kind of like enter into mindfulness. It's as if mindfulness were actually something. It seems very vague in a way, mindfulness, you know. Awareness. What is awareness anyway? It's like a vague thing. And just a thought, aren't we always aware of something? You think. I'm not asleep. I'm aware, right? But somehow, not so. Somehow we can be awake and aware to an extent, but not really clear. Not really truly aware. Awareness, mindfulness is almost like a thing with handles on it

[57:17]

that you can pick up. And you either picked it up or you didn't. And it's pretty clear. So, you get that feeling. It establishes mindfulness in front of you. It picks up mindfulness and there it is. Mindfulness is now present. So, I don't know if you can appreciate what I'm saying or understand what I'm saying here, but this is really true. Either mindfulness is there or it's not. And so one has to, first of all, struggle a little bit and find that handle buried under all that baloney that's in our lives. But once you kind of find the handle and grab it enough times, you get a feeling for, yes, this is mindfulness being present, and no, it's not present there. So then you sit down and you bring mindfulness up and you put it, you grab the handle and hold it there. Mindfulness is there. Abandoning covetousness for the world, he abides with the mind free from covetousness. He purifies

[58:19]

his mind from covetousness, desires, in other words, he's grabbing on. Abandoning ill will and hatred, she abides with the mind free from ill will. Compassionate for the welfare of all living beings, she purifies her mind from ill will and hatred. So, this is just really the same thing as greed or covetousness. Ill will is the same energy in the other direction. In other words, what one is trying to do is to simply freely allow what is happening to happen. Whether it's a thought or a sense impression, whatever it is, the idea is whatever is there, let's allow it to be there, just as it is. Without either saying, oh that's great, I want to have that.

[59:20]

Or, that's terrible, I'm getting out of here, I want this to get out of here. Without doing either one of those things, just to allow what's there to be there. So these two hindrances are the opposite of that. We have to let go of that. If we have ill will or covetousness or desire, the mind will continue to be agitated. These are energies that will continue to agitate the mind. So we have to let go. Then, abandoning sloth and torpor, he abides free from sloth and torpor, recipient of light, mindful and fully aware, he purifies his mind from sloth and torpor. So, this is one extreme. Again, these are pairs of extremes. One extreme is sloth and torpor, laziness or dullness. And, you know, it's possible to be dull for years

[60:22]

at a time. Kind of a low grade, I just don't have any desire to do anything. Sleepwalk through the day. It's very common to do that. Not to mention literally sleepiness in meditation, right? Falling asleep in meditation, unable to have a bright mind, having a mind that's dull, no stimulation so on. So that's one extreme. And the other extreme is the next one, restlessness and remorse. Abandoning restlessness and remorse, she abides unagitated with the mind inwardly peaceful. She purifies her mind from restlessness and remorse. So, you know, one extreme is we're bored and the other extreme is we're agitated about something. Thrilled to the point of completely confused.

[61:22]

So we want to have a certain balance there. We've got to have enough energy to be bright but not so much as to make us agitated and excited. We've got to be calm. If we have too much calm, we fall asleep. So we have to have a good balance. Let go of both extremes. And then finally abandoning doubt. He abides having gone beyond doubt, unperplexed about wholesome states. He purifies his mind from doubt. So, this is doubt in relation to what one is doing in the past. Not so much. I mean, it is, I suppose, partly we think of doubt as the opposite of faith. I don't have faith, you know, in the past. But it's more, in this case, you see that it's more specifically seems to be, had to do

[62:24]

with not being clear about what's wholesome and what's not wholesome and moving towards not being clear about the fact of moving towards what's wholesome and away from what's unwholesome and not knowing the difference. One has to know the difference. And sometimes, you know, we really don't know the difference. That's why we have to make a lot of mistakes. Because we have to really know, not because someone told us or we read in a sutra or something. Sutras are only guideposts for our own self-discovery. We have to know, by our own mistakes, this is not wholesome. Because I've done it a lot. And I see what happens. So I know that this is not beneficial. This is beneficial. Because although at first I wasn't interested in it, I've gone toward it and now I see that it is of interest. It is useful. It is helpful. So,

[63:26]

experience gets us clear on this point. And usually, experience helps us to combat doubt. Although, our confusion is pretty deep. So doubt will continue to come back. And we have to constantly reflect on our experience in order to overcome it. So those are the hindrances. And the idea is this is done in sitting practice. This is the idea that this is balancing and settling the mind. The hindrances are that which agitates, disturbs, unsettles the mind. The mind needs to be enriched, settled, calm, focused in order for us to take the next step in this process. And in order to do that, we have to let go. So, maybe I'll stop there and next time we can go over similarities about the hindrances.

[64:28]

But we don't have to end exactly unless there's any questions. But I hope by the end of the text we can see if there's anything anybody has to say. Without thinking this through very well, didn't the Buddha have problems? No. This is the prison with our problems. This isn't a prison in the world. It's hard to relate to. Yeah, I mean, sometimes you do have a problem. It sort of goes into a grabby place or a... I don't know... in all these different hindrance places. And you can watch it go in those places. Yeah. Right, so so this is like let's say what you're raising is a great point. This sutra is like maybe you could say it's like a map of where to go.

[65:30]

And, you know, a map is not the same as the place that you are. A map points a direction, gives you an idea of how to proceed and so on. But in reality, it's a lot more messy as you are pointing out. It's a lot more messy than, oh yeah, like this, like this, like this. And it all works out. Of course, working with the hindrances is a never-ending issue. It comes up again and again and again. Conditions in our life are such that great doubt is brought up or great desire is brought up or tremendous ill-will is stimulated by conditions. Then our practice of awareness and working with the hindrances will be all about studying the ill-will, being with it, working with the condition, whether it actually arises in the mind. It may be that there are long periods of time when we cannot let go of one of the hindrances or more than one of the hindrances. If that's the case, that doesn't mean we then quit, give up

[66:34]

or do something else. It just means that, well, we're just following this map. We just keep trying to go in this direction and it turns out that we have to stay in a motel there for a while while ill-will is having its way with us and that's what we have to do. But if we stay there, that's the point, if we stay there and are willing to come back over and over again and keep following the way that we know will help us eventually, the ill-will does dissipate because everything dissipates. I mean our whole life dissipates, right? So why not ill-will? It does. Whatever it is, whatever the hindrance is, desire dissipates. Just like I was saying about overeating. If I keep exercising my overeating muscle it seems really hard not to overeat, but once I start not overeating, it's a lot easier and more

[67:35]

pleasant. So if ill-will arises and we, to use ill-will as an example, if ill-will arises and we begin encouraging ourselves to scheme about how we're going to beat up so and so and how much we hate them and they deserve to be hated this way and that way and so on and so forth, then of course we increase the ill-will. If we don't do that and just stay in an ill-will motel and don't do more positive ill-will stuff, but just allow the ill-will there, it will actually dissipate. It will actually go away. Eventually. It might take a while if we say, how come it hasn't gone yet? Okay, forget it. I'm going to get into it. If we begin that, it's no good. We have to have patience. And eventually the ill-will goes away because every fire goes out and everything you threw up in the air comes down. And that's how all the hindrances are like that too. If you are patient

[68:36]

and you don't make it worse, it gets better. But yeah, it's a lot messier. As I always say about these sutras, this is all very neat. ABC and so forth, but it's not like that in life. Maybe I wanted to give a clear, very clear sense of how this is all going. Mm-hmm. Seeing life. Aware of it. Seeing life. Mm-hmm. It's often the traditional... Perceiving. Perceiving, yeah, perceiving. The traditional antidote for sloth and torpor is to see light.

[69:37]

So like in meditation manuals when it says, I have trouble falling asleep in meditation, what should I do? There's a whole list of things and one of them is to look for light in the room that you're sitting in or outdoors and try to increase the light that's there and make it brighter. That'll wake you up. I find that it actually doesn't work that well. That's what they said. That's what they said. I tried. I never thought I'd pick that up myself. Maybe it would work for you. But that is what they say. And the idea being that sloth and torpor are dullness. And it's true. When you're sleeping, your eyes are closing. You're emphasizing the darkness and not the light.

[70:40]

So that's what they mean. But brightness and the opposite is sloth and torpor. You were saying about how when you stay in this nice little motel you come out when I hear oh we'll just sit with it. It almost sets up this expectation. It's automatic. Like that whole scenario of just sitting with it. Just staying in the motel as though that

[71:43]

which is an action you are mindfully doing this is going to do something about it. It's like when you're angry and you want to go out and fight you think that that's going to change things or make you feel better. But in the same sense any urge that you would have not to do that would almost have to be the same resistance to it. It would have to be an equal counterbalance of the same gating idea I guess. You think you're going to get something out of it. Either way you do it. Just having

[72:44]

that extreme emotion period whether sitting with it or not is in and of itself like this gating idea. Propagation. Well, yeah. You might observe that arising in your mind but the injunction to quote unquote sit with something is the middle space between those two extremes. Either going and beating somebody up or thinking that you can eliminate ill will in your mind are the two extremes. Neither one of them is going to work. What it means to say sit with it means ill will is present so allow the ill will to be present. Don't try to avoid it. Don't try to act on it. It's hard to do. And in reality as you say a lot of times you sit down you sit with it as a strategy

[73:45]

to get rid of it. And when you sit with it as a strategy to get rid of it, it's very frustrating because of course you're not really sitting with it, right? That's the whole point. Sitting with it means not having it as a strategy to get rid of it. Of course it's hard to avoid having the feeling of a strategy to get rid of it arise in the mind and so when it does then you have to sit with that. In other words, okay I'm sitting here aware that I'm sitting here to get rid of this ill will which I find so uncomfortable and I'm aware of my desire to avoid this ill will and that's what I'm sitting with. So I understand the difficulty of it but it helps to remind yourself over and over again that there is no other way. Because there really isn't. What are you going to do? I mean, if like

[74:45]

for example if you get up every morning and look in the mirror basically you'll see the same guy. And you can wish all you want that there would be another guy there but that's it. I mean, what could be more futile than every day to have the wish tomorrow when I look in the mirror maybe it's going to be Tom Cruise. No, I realize that since I brought up the metaphor. Basically that is the situation with what arises in the mind. There is no choice. There is no choice. You cannot I mean, if you don't like the Buddha's method find a better one, but basically that's it. So I find it very comforting to remind myself that there is no choice.

[75:47]

That in a way like I say I'm always ready, believe me at the drop of a hat, to find a better way. If anybody has one, let me know. But I have not found a better way. When I say a better way I don't mean like another I'm sure that these things that we're talking about these ways of working with our life are not limited to Buddhism. There are other traditions that say these same things other approaches to life. But the basic mechanism of accepting and turning our life I don't see any alternative to it because there is no way to control your mind and make ill will disappear somehow. I mean, yes, you can take various kinds of drugs, people do that, right?

[76:48]

They take various kinds of drugs to make mental states disappear. And it works, right? Of course it works. But how long does it work? What are the consequences of it? Well, it doesn't really actually work. And this is why why do you think that there are so many people so many drug troubles? Why is that? People are trying to change their mind. Right? They're trying to change their mind. And like I say, it works for a little while. But ultimately, it's a tremendous tragedy. Yeah? One interesting thing about the 500 students it seems like the teaching is like it's like a temporary letting go of greed and hate in meditation. And it sounds like the end of their sentences is like the end of their path but actually they're taught as

[77:48]

kind of a provisional way to quiet their mind down and have the insight where those things are really completely let go of and more arising. Yes, yes. Yes, thank you. That's a really important point. Yes. Because there's levels and degrees of working with the five hindrances. In a way, we've all experienced times when we were absent of the five hindrances. It's not that unusual, but there could be a moment or an hour or a day or whatever where we don't have the five hindrances present. And in order for the mind to experience insight we have to not have the five hindrances present. But obviously we haven't reached a state where the five hindrances are wiped out forever. They come back. So this is talking about just exactly as Charlie said it's talking about in meditation

[78:48]

letting go of the five hindrances so that we can go further. But if we can do that in meditation, we haven't yet uprooted the root cause of the five hindrances which happens by the end of the sutra where through the practice you actually get to the root causes of the hindrances and then they don't arise again. That's the theory. That's the idea. And we're all working on that. In reality we can have we can let go of the five hindrances in sitting and then in our daily lives, with circumstances they'll come up again and then we have to continue to work on them. So we're kind of doing two things at once. It's kind of a double track program. On the one hand we're working to eliminate making the five hindrances worse and deepening our commitment to them. We're trying to work on that. And at the same time we're trying to work on the root

[79:50]

causes of the five hindrances so that we will totally let go of them. So on the one hand we're kind of practicing meliorism. On the other hand we're practicing a radical completely transforming our lives both at the same time. Thank you. That's a very important point. Well, I think that's enough. So we'll maybe get one more time on Tuesday. Thank you.

[80:28]

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