This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfcc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good morning. A familiar group. Okay, so... I guess it sounds pretty good. Everybody can hear me? So yesterday we were working on this paragraph from the Ganjo Koan to study the Buddha way is to study the self. We got about halfway through it. But we're not going to talk about that today. We'll take the other half of that paragraph up tomorrow because I wanted to talk a little bit about... student-teacher relationships, and Suzuki Roshi, because we celebrated his annual death this morning with our memorial service.

[01:13]

So I'm going to do it by bringing forward a case from the Book of Serenity called Dengshan Presents Offerings Before the Image, which was a case where... Dung Shan made some comments about his teacher, Yun Yan, at an annual memorial ceremony. I just wanted to make a comment about this memorial ceremony this morning. One of the things we chanted was the Sandokai, and we also chanted the Sandokai last night for his service. And for those of you who are not familiar with the Sandokai, Suzuki Roshi lectured on it For most of the summer in 1970, he gave a series of lectures, and those lectures were collected into a book called Branching Streams, Flow in the Darkness, which is a lovely book and really is a great, both teaching on the Sandokai and also gives you some feeling for Suzuki Roshi in the summer of 1970, which was the summer before he died.

[02:15]

It's quite... traditional apparently when in the later years of a teacher's life for them to lecture on the sandokai and that's what he brought it forward in 1970 so i just wanted to mention that for those of you who may not have read that book i would recommend it and just you know the memorial service we did this morning and what we did last night is a tradition in soto zen and uh We also, every morning when we do service, you'll probably notice that we chant the names of the ancestors on many of the mornings. And on the mornings that we don't chant the names of the ancestors, we refer to at least Shakyamuni Buddha and Mahapajapadi and Bodhidharma and Dogen and Shogaku Shinryo Suzuki Roshi in the echo after the first three lectures. So this is something that we do here that I think is kind of like not very traditional in America. Mostly in America, we are busy thinking of the future and not so often sort of thinking about the past or certainly recognizing it every day.

[03:28]

And when I was in Japan in June, I really got the impression that a lot of Japan, at least the religious aspect of Japan, is looking backwards to the ancestors and appreciating their heritage and so there's a different sort of sense there. So this is an example, does this fit in with American culture? So I think in some ways it's good for us a little bit because even though it involves a lot of work, you know, the Chitins had to get up early this morning and prepare You know, sweet water and tea and food for Suzuki Hiroshi, and we did all this elaborate work. It takes a lot of energy to do these things frequently. And, you know, so we're honoring the past and all the teachers and ancestors that have transmitted this teaching to us. But also, I always feel when we're doing something like that, that we're also honoring our entire past, our parents.

[04:36]

our grandparents, all the way back to the first fish that crawled out of the water and created a land-bearing being, and even the stars themselves. As Joni Mitchell said in the song Woodstock, we are made of stardust, for those of you who are familiar with the Woodstock era. Fortunately, We don't have to take Joni's word for it. The scientists have already come forward and explained quite extensively that the production of a karma, carbon, is produced in stars that are dying. And then that's spread out through the universe. And apparently in something I read on the internet, so who knows, apparently there's lots of, the carbon in your left hand came from a different star than the carbon in your right hand. which makes me wonder how many different stars have contributed to the carbon in my body right here. Probably a little query in the internet would answer that question, but at least it's an interesting idea how distant our components are.

[05:47]

So going through such a ceremony kind of reminds us that the past is part of our present. We didn't just sort of like arrive here fully formed. And that knowing that we're the past as part of our presence, I think in some ways gives us a certain kind of strength. We're not just standing here from the point of our Buddhist heritage. We're standing on the shoulders of 2,500 years of religious training and practice. And from... point of human evolution we're standing on the shoulders of I don't know how many millions of years of evolution but quite a bit and from the point of view of the cosmic world we're standing on the shoulders of at least the big bang and we don't know how much further back so you know we're here with a lot of heritage and that should give us some strength in our you know self here so

[06:58]

Anyway, on to the case that I'm going to present. As Dengshan was presenting offerings before the image of Yunnan... So last night, you remember, we presented an offering in front of an actual statue that was produced. It's a replica of Suzuki Roshi. So he was presenting offerings before the image of Yunnan, and he retold the story from before about depicting reality. So he told a story... from before about depicting reality. A monk came forward and said, when Yunnan said, just this is it, what did he mean? And Dungshan said, at that time I nearly misunderstood my late teacher's meaning. Good answer. And the monk said, did Yunnan himself know it is or not? And Dung Chan said, if he didn't know it is, how could he be able to say this?

[08:03]

If he didn't know it is, how could he be able to say this? If he didn't know it, how could he be able to say this? If he did know it is, how could he be willing to say this? That was the entire dialogue. It's a good story, huh? So, you know... This is obviously Yinyang was telling a story about when he met Yinyang, and here's how it goes. Just to remind you, Yinyang was the founder of Soto Zen, which is 9th century China. He lived from 807 to 869, and he wrote The Jewel Mirror Samadhi, which is the other thing we chanted this morning. And Yinyang was his teacher. So, as Dengshan was presenting offering before the image of Yunnan, he retold the story from before about us depicting reality.

[09:06]

This is natural, you know, in such an occasion that you would remember an important story that occurred around your teacher, and you would share it with your students, hoping that they might learn something from it. So here's the story. When Dengshan took leave of Yunnan, Dengshan asked, After your death... if someone asks me if I can describe your reality, how shall I reply? I need some parting words of wisdom from you so I can tell it to future generations, like you did in this memorial service. And Yunnan said, just this is it. Just this is it. That was the summation of his statement. Dungshan sank into thought.

[10:07]

Jung Yan said, you are in charge of this great matter. You must be most thoroughgoing. Dungshan left without saying anything more. Later, as he was crossing a river, he saw his reflection and then, for the first time, was thoroughly enlightened. Thereupon he composed a verse. This is the verse. Just don't seek from others or you will be far estranged from self. I now go on alone everywhere I meet it. It now is me. I now am not it. One must understand in this way to merge with thusness. very famous poem, as is Just This Is It, a very famous statement. In fact, Taigan Dan Leighton wrote an entire book titled Just This Is It, which is basically this, you know, essentially a biography of Dungshan, but has several chapters on this very koan and poem.

[11:24]

I don't know how long Dongshan studied with Yunyan. That's not clear in the records, but let's assume it was 20 years. So they were intimate student-teacher, and this departing was an important thing. But asking for that one phrase, that's a kind of common thing. I remember David Chadwick, who was a great, one of our wonderful students, and wrote the book Cucked Cucumber. and has continued to this day writing about Suzuki Roshi, said at one point in time, frustrated, Suzuki Roshi, just tell me one thing I can understand, one teaching I can carry forward. And Suzuki Roshi didn't brush him off. He said, everything changes. Everything changes. So just this is it. What did he mean by that? That's what the monk asked.

[12:30]

When Yang Yang said, just this is it, what did he mean? You're telling me this story about just this is it, what it's about? So there's, in the it, just this is it, the it refers to usually total reality or the absolute or thusness or suchness, terms that we use to describe reality. the actual total event that's happening right now. There is one version of the character it that also means him, meaning Jungian. So the first interpretation could be that just this is it. He's saying, just this meeting the two of us together right now is it. This relationship we have, that's it. The second interpretation could be he's sort of giving him a teaching.

[13:32]

Just this is it. Just the suchness of this moment is it. Or he could just be pointing to the suchness of the moment, sort of making a universal statement about the immediacy of the moment. Faced with the... sort of scale of that possible answer, it's not surprising that Yunnan didn't have a response and went away to think about it. And it's interesting that even though he didn't have a response, Yunnan, his teacher, said, you are in charge of this great matter. You must be most thoroughgoing. He was basically giving Dungshan his blessing. You know what's going on. You're in charge of this matter. You must be most thoroughgoing. So I think usually one has to say a few things about this poem.

[14:39]

Just don't seek from others or you will be far estranged from self. So that's sort of obvious on the surface. One interpretation would be, so Deng Shan was asking one more time from his teacher, tell me, what's the answer? And Jung Yan, being the compassionate teacher that he was, offered something up. Just this is it. But he didn't really take it in at that moment because... you don't get it from somebody else. And he walked along as it was living in him, and when he saw his reflection in a river, he got it. He understood something. And so he said, just don't seek from others. You don't get it from someone else.

[15:41]

To the extent that you're always looking to get an answer to your life outside, somewhere else. You'll be far estranged from self. And the self is with a capital S, self, which means not just far estranged from your ego self, but far estranged from your whole self, another version of thusness. And now I go on alone. Everywhere I meet it, meaning everywhere I meet the absolute reality, everywhere I meet the world as it is. as Suzuki Roshi would say. And just to throw in some more complexity here, which... Did I print that out? You know, these poems are incredibly complex, and they use characters that mean several different things in them, and fortunately we have...

[16:43]

Dan Leighton and all these people that dissect this stuff for us, but he was also saying that the it, the character that's used for it, which means absolute reality, total, universal, everything, also in this verse could be interpreted as him, the personal Yunyan. In which case, so Yunyan's response to Dungshan about describing his teaching might be understood as just this person, And the reading of the Dungshan verse might be, I now go on alone, but everywhere I meet him. I now go on alone, but everywhere I meet him, my teacher. My teacher is with me everywhere I go. And there's a famous, I think I wrote that down somewhere. Yes. Just prior to this particular event, Apparently, they'd had a more formal departure. Maybe they had an actual ceremony or something.

[17:46]

Then after the ceremony, they sat down and had tea together. And in the more formal departure, Yunnan had said, after your departure, it will be hard to meet again. You know, this relationship between a teacher and a student, it's like very intimate. And, you know, maybe in many cases, like the case of Zhao Zhou, he lived for 40 years and studied with a teacher. and didn't leave until his teacher died. And then he went off for pilgrimage for 20 years and then founded his own monastery. But in this case, for whatever reasons, Yunnan, after having spent decades with his teacher, felt he needed to go on and establish his own teacher. So it's, you know, a kind of a big deal. So Yunnan said, after your departure, it will be hard to meet again. Will we ever meet again? And Dungshan said, it will be hard not to meet. It will be hard not to meet. Does that make sense? You meet your teacher all the time.

[18:51]

We met our teacher this morning again. Thanks to all the wonderful words spoken by the teachers here. So, on to the complex last question. Third line. It is now me. I am not it. It is now me. I am not it. This is that sort of duality. You are one and two at the same time. It is now me means it. The absolute reality is me. I am part of the absolute reality. I am one with absolute reality. I... am not it. That I is a small ego I saying, I am still a limited individual person acting in the world. So, it is now me, I am not it.

[19:55]

That duality, and what's interesting is that duality is reflected all through our history, but in particular I thought it would be good to bring out the fact that in the Genjo Koan, because at least I have to mention something about the Genjo Kohan every day today here. There's this famous saying, to carry the self forward and illuminate myriad things is delusion, that myriad things come forth and illuminate the self is awakening. I'm sure most of you have heard that sentence. That may be, next to the paragraph we're studying, one of the more famous things. sayings from the Genjo Koan. To carry the self forward and illuminate myriad things is delusion. That is the I am not it. That is when I am acting out of my own personal personality and desires and efforts to interact with the world and get what I want as a separate individual and take care of myself that's called delusion.

[21:04]

That's forgetting how interconnected you are to everything. That myriad things come forth and eliminate the self is awakening. That's the it now is me. That is when I am transparent. That is when the world flows through me and I become representative of or a reflection of thusness or suchness, that's called awakening. Shohak Okamura's comment is, when we take our distorted ideas and desires and move toward the world trying to find truth or reality, we try to see and capture reality with our minds, abilities, and willpower and effort. We try to become enlightened in order to put everything under the control of the self so that our life is stable and peaceful.

[22:08]

This attitude, according to Dogen, is delusion. So that's when we're asserting ourself on the world. And we need to do that a lot. A lot of times we have to get things done, and that's what we do. But the experience of meeting the world through having the world being open, beginner's mind, open to having the world flow into you, And that influencing how you act and respond, that's called enlightenment here. This is a great comment on that is that things advance and understand themselves is enlightenment. And then I always love this sort of very particular kind of thing. When we have no particular concrete idea of good or bad, when we're not examining the world and coming up with a fixed concrete idea of good or bad, We expose ourselves and accept criticism. That is enlightenment.

[23:11]

Isn't that lovely? If we don't have a whole fixed idea about what's going on, we're, you know, I don't know person, we do something. We take a chance. We expose ourselves. And we accept all the criticism that comes. That is enlightenment. I just love Sigurishi's take on these things. I just thought I would mention, because it occurred to me as we were chanting the song of the Jewel Mirror Samadhi, somewhere along in the song, it said, It is like a... facing a jewel mirror, form an image, behold each other. You are not it. In truth, it is you. You are not it. In truth, it is you. That's the same thing as it.

[24:14]

You are now it. It's the same dual thing. You are both an individual person who is acting out of not being connected with everything, and you are part of the whole picture. The Song of the Jewel Mirror Sinmadi was written by Dung Chan. Well, advancing forward, we should probably at least get back to the original koan. So, a monk came forward and said, just this is it. What did he mean? Dung Chan said, at that time, I nearly misunderstood my late teacher's meaning. I nearly misunderstood my lay teacher's meaning. Kind of interesting statement. I didn't completely misunderstand it.

[25:15]

Maybe I did understand what he meant. But there's some qualification there, right? And I think I got it. That was so characteristic. I remember I used to talk with Lou Richmond, who ordained me. and was ordained by Suzuki Roshi, who was my teacher, among many teachers. He used to say, the beautiful thing about Suzuki Roshi is he always, his term was, threw us the long ball. He would expose us to Zen at a level that we had no capacity to understand at that time. with some confidence that maybe decades down the road, after he was gone, we would get some glimmer of understanding of what was going on there. And that showed, I think, a great trust in us. He actually thought we might get something.

[26:18]

I do remember, it was the summer of 71, I was listening to a lecture, and Sukershi said, I think this was in response to... Oh, yeah, he'd been angry with the staff because they had been fighting with each other or complaining about something in a staff meeting. Maybe the guest students are complaining about the guests or who knows what. And he'd gotten angry with them, which he didn't do very often. So at night he gave a very short lecture and he said, well, maybe there'll be some questions. And one of the senior students raised his hand and said... Sukiroshi, I've been studying for five years here, and I still don't know how to be kind, kind of feeling ashamed of how he'd been. I think I've told, did I tell this story? I don't remember, anyway. Sukiroshi said, five years is nothing.

[27:19]

You don't know how hard it is to love some people. you don't know how hard it is to love some people. Which is, of course, a fundamental teaching of this, which is the whole point of all of this, is to be able to love people. That's the whole point of it. I mean, all of the magnificent volumes written, the ceremonies we do, the sashins we sit, is to learn how to love people. And then he said, I think maybe in a later lecture, something like, you've made me greedy. I want to live ten more years. If I live 10 more years, you will be good students. You will be able to carry this on. And I thought, a good 10 more years. And then the man died 18 months later. So that's unfortunate for all of us, but that's one of the things that happens. And one carries on.

[28:22]

So it was a good thing he threw all those long balls so that we'd have 10, 20, 30, in my case, 40 years to work on these things. So now that I'm in the storytelling mode, which is part of what you do on an annual memorial service, I thought I would tell a story similar to this, but different. After my first summer at Tassar, where I'd The med-sysiker machine had a lot of interesting experiences personally and had interesting interactions with him. I went back to graduate school and was working on my PhD in mathematics, and I was very confused and distracted and was worried that all the wild things I had done in the counterculture at that time, which was raging in America, had eliminated any possibility of me getting enlightened. And I was pretty convinced that the only person

[29:26]

that could answer that question was Suzuki Roshi. So I decided to come out. I called ahead and found out Suzuki Roshi was here in this building at that time. I think it was winter of 1970. And I grabbed a train from Albuquerque where I was studying out here to kind of make it not drive, not fly, but a train. I was reading Narcissus and Goldman, kind of a deep book, the meaning of some existential understanding. And I was reading some Nietzsche, too. I was serious. I arrived here, depressed and serious, and checked in, and I said, well, I've come to meet with Suzuki Roshi in the office. I said, well, you have to talk to his assistant, who was Yvonne at that time. So, I don't know, maybe the second day I was here, I went... and I found Yvonne. I said, Yvonne, I've come all the way from Albuquerque.

[30:29]

I had all this experience last summer. I have this important question to ask Izuki Roshi. And Yvonne didn't say, well, good, I'll just sign you up for Doksan tomorrow. She said, yes, Izuki Roshi is very busy right now. If you write a letter to him, I'm sure he'll read it. And I said, uh... it didn't make me feel very good. I was pretty convinced if I wrote a letter, probably wouldn't get, if you're so busy not to see me, probably wasn't going to get around to reading my letter and writing a response. So I was kind of, I just hung it up and went on my way. And I was, I think the next day I was over and at that time where the bookstore is, was actually a second room, which was an office behind the first office. And we were, cause we just bought the building. That was the year we bought it, 1969, 1970. We were, So there was some painting going on in there, and there was a desk, and I was sanding a desk that was going to be in there. I had my sander on it.

[31:29]

All of a sudden, Suzuki Roshi walks in with Ivan to tell him what was going on. So I turned off the sander and was standing there, and she was talking about how they were going to redecorate it. And all of a sudden, the phone rang in the first office, and the person in the first office said, Ivan, it's for you. So Yvonne walks back into the first office. I'm alone with Suzuki Roshi. Here's my chance. But I was sort of so depressed and surprised by the situation that nothing came out of my mouth. Can you believe it? I'm standing there looking at it. And this is a true story. His face literally deformed and became my face. It was like looking at a mirror.

[32:34]

It was like looking at me. And what I saw was something completely different than what I was experiencing. What I was experiencing, I saw a kind of young person bright, energetic man, full of life, with this little shadow of depression over him. I was so involved in the shadow of depression, I had no idea about the other part of me. And Suzuki Ryoshi was showing me both my Buddha nature and my individual screwed-up little self. Same time, same place. One gesture. Now, of course, I could ask, what's this all about? But Ivan walks back in the room. Everything changes. Zuki Roshi walks away. And end of that particular interaction. So, you know, at that time, I nearly misunderstood my late teacher's meaning.

[33:46]

What was all that about? Who knows? I can say things here. So anyway, apparently after Dung Shan had said, at that time I nearly misunderstood my late teachers, meaning the monk continued on and said, did Yunnan himself know it is or not? You don't know if you understood what he was talking about. Did he understand what he was talking about? That's a pretty persistent monk, right? And Dung Chan said, if he didn't know it is, how could he be able to say this? If he did know it is, how could he be willing to say this? The first sentence is pretty obvious. If he didn't know it is, how could he be willing to say this? If he didn't know it, he wouldn't say it. So obviously he knew it.

[34:47]

On the other hand, if he did know it is, how could he be willing to say this? That's the more interesting thing. If he really knew about the suchness, about the immediacy, about the total reality of life, if he really understood all this, he would know that there's nothing he could say that would explain it to Dung San. So why would he say it? Right? This is that problem. This is not something that can be conveyed. This is an understanding you come to yourself. And, of course, this raises the entire very common topic in Zen of the problem with language, the complexity of language. And what do we know? Did Jung-yan, what does it mean? Did he know anything when he said, just this is it? If he knew something... Was the words he used meaning anything?

[35:49]

Do the words we use mean anything? We haven't seen Maya learn to talk yet, but I'm very curious when that will happen, because we all learned to talk early on. I think we just repeated words that we heard from other people. Do we know what the meaning of those words was, other than we somehow would get food when we'd say the words or various other things? So anyway, we assembled some language and we've been babbling on ever since then, especially talking to ourselves, and it makes you wonder whether we know what we're even talking about. Do we? And especially if we observe our thinking for a while, which you are certainly in the midst of doing in this session, you realize there's a kind of tyranny of thinking going on. Our thinking is running our life Our thinking is constructing an idea about the self constantly that after a while we actually start to believe the idea of our self that our mind is creating.

[36:56]

And in many cases the idea of our self that our mind is creating is an idea that causes us pain and suffering. It becomes a prison we live in. So one should be very careful about this thinking and talking to ourself. But when you're sitting sasheen like you are, every once in a while you might actually free yourself from the prison of your thoughts and experience a little bit of just this. Just this is it. which would be good if we had just a little bit of an experience like that. But we will eventually get up from the sashin and go out in the world, and we will have to do something. Do something with this crazy mind that keeps thinking all these thoughts, with this karma that keeps churning through us like a rushing river.

[38:10]

And we keep speaking to ourselves and others, engaging in life, and remembering and knowing that it's always off. It will always be off. So, can you tell the truth about anything? Was Yunnan able to tell the truth about anything? Was Dungshan able to tell the truth about anything? No, it's impossible to tell the truth about anything. Language is too limited. On the other hand, because there is always another hand in Zen, in this moment, everything you speak is the truth. That's the other side of it. Because it's right here. So, was there some special knowledge that Yunnan had that he passed on to Dengshan?

[39:21]

Was there some special knowledge that Dengshan has? Is there some great secret that all these ancestors and teachers have that they're withholding from us or trying to pass on to us? I think there is no special knowledge that's there. There's something, but no kind of special knowledge. that you can store away and keep as a treasure. The departing cooks, and the sound of time for us to go back to zazen. Thank you all very much for your cooking. So I think... Whether this practice gives us some deep, important secret that we can keep and treasure inside us or not, the one thing it does is makes us willing to live our life and accept our life as it is and see our karma as a treasure and be willing to share our life

[40:43]

with others, just as it is. That's what Yunnan was willing to do. He was willing to share his life with Dengshan. That's what Dengshan was willing to do with this monk. And that's what we should be willing to do with our life. Accept it as it is and be willing to share it with others. Maybe it'll be helpful, maybe it won't. What did Suzuki Rishi say in one of his last lectures at Tasara? He used the beautiful koan, one speck of dust. If you pick up a speck of dust, that's if you create a monastery. If you do something, he said, if you try to do something good, maybe one, maybe 20 bad things will happen. Probably so. But still, do you let beings suffer and not pick up a speck of dust? No, you have to do something. which is, of course, the entire point of the Genjo Koan.

[41:48]

Even though we all have Buddha nature, we actually have to actualize it in each moment of our life, in this present moment. Well, thank you very much. I hope you have another day of good sitting and good food and good camaraderie with your fellow, with all of us together. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma talks are offered free of charge, and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, please visit sfzc.org and click Giving. May we fully enjoy the Dharma.

[42:40]

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