Good morning and welcome to the Grand Gulch Farm Sunday Dahmer Talk, today offered by Charlie Polkorni. This program has closed captioning. To enable, click on the small CC icon at the bottom of your Zoom screen. Click Enable Captions. Using the same menu, you can adjust the size of the captions. To move the closed captions, use your mouse to drag and drop them to another place on your screen. Thank you. penetrating and perfect dharma is rarely met with even in a hundred thousand million kalpas having it to see and listen to to remember and accept I vow to taste the truth of the Tathagata's words Good morning.

[03:22]

I'm Charlie, and I use the pronouns he and they. And thank you to Jiryu, the Tanto of Green Dragon Temple, for inviting me to speak today. So this talk will be about what we could call Zen responsiveness. And I want to relate in particular to a common distinction between being reactive and being responsive. And so what's going on in this distinction or how do I see reactivity and responsiveness in myself and in my process, in my relations and my impacts? Reactivity. It usually refers to a strong, knee-jerk reaction.

[04:24]

It can include strong emotions. It could also include shutdown or denial or just an assumption or a snap judgment, defensiveness, resistance, and so on. And responsiveness then involves something more considered, a more careful process, a more careful integration of intentions, values, appreciation of consequences. And responsiveness, I think, particularly points to my inner process and how that then process unfolds into expression and relationality. And, you know, I think The common feeling I have when I'm reactive is I don't feel like I'm in charge of my action. I'm being used by what's happening.

[05:27]

And I might do something I regret. And reactivity, I think it doesn't only need to refer to an immediate reaction. It can be long or slow. It can last a long time. Or it can be in a reactive state for a long time. And when I look at reactivity, I see it lacking curiosity. While responsiveness can embrace like ever widening circles of inquiry. And this can in turn allow for integration of values and so on. And reactivity I think can often lean on or involve stories of blame. And with responsiveness, I feel like accepting responsibility, owning more clearly my part of what's happening, and also allowing for more complexity, difference, and also possibility.

[06:38]

Reactivity may I think, you know, especially arise with challenging conditions, you know, especially something unexpected, unwanted, some stress, tension, chaos, uncertainty, perceived danger, being hurt. And so, you know, depending on our conditioning, we may each have a very specific triggers, and then along with those specific reactive formations. And then reactivity, we can look at that as describing a whole territory of conditioning. Like a landscape of conditions and conditioned responses, triggers and habitual responses, some particular to my life, some particular to my family, my upbringing,

[07:45]

to when and where I grew up, my cultural settings. And reactivity I would also offer is usually involves acting out my conditioning in ways that perpetuate that conditioning. Responsiveness, we can also look at that as a territory or a complex field. or a path through the territory of reactivity, you know, a path of opening or a path of bringing light and awareness to the usually unconscious territory of reactivity. And in this way, responsiveness is not exactly opposed to reactivity, you know, which would just be another layer of reactivity, which we probably actually all have. And that also just, again, has a perpetuating function.

[08:51]

Things like shame or self-hate could be your reactivity layer on top of reactivity that perpetuates the whole thing. Responsiveness is intimate with reactivity and through intimacy opens into transforming the field of conditioning in a process of healing and liberation. So in terms of emptiness or the truth of relationship, reactivity in this talk is enacting and perpetuating separation and suffering and responsiveness, opening connection and actualizing relationality. And also just at the outset, I just want to offer that responsiveness flows or thrives with space-making practices.

[09:52]

So responsiveness needs space. And depending on this context, that could include temporal space, just like giving something time. Spatial space, you know, some distance. Also social or emotional, conceptual and experiential space. You know, space to feel. space to wonder, to question, inquire, space to move, space around my stories, my views, my memories. Or you could say space with feelings, urges, pain, hurt. Or a space, a pause or disruption, or just a slowing down in the flow of disconnection, of busyness, grasping, conditioning, suffering. And so stillness in our sitting practice is not about becoming non-relational or cutting off, but a space-making or space-opening practice.

[11:09]

So we have this I see this as a really deep aspect of what we have in this, what's offered through this sitting practice. Opening space. So I wanna bring up two closely related koans. Or they might be one koan, but they seem to be two koans. And so it's blue cliff record, Cases 14 and 15. In both of these cases, there's a monastic who questions the Zen teacher Yanmen. Yanmen lived 862 to 949, and he taught in southern China. So case 14. A monk asked Yunmin, what are the teachings of the Buddha's whole lifetime?

[12:15]

And Yunmin said, an appropriate statement. And so this, an appropriate statement, this response, it's three Chinese characters. And I'm going to put this in the chat. I'm going to put the koan and the kanji in the chat. Let's see if this can work. Hopefully that's there. If you can't see that, it's okay. And so these three characters, there's Tai, which means facing, responding, answering, replying, or meeting. And then there's Ichi, one or someone. And then there's Setsu, which means statement, speak. Talk, teach, preach, explain, express, expound.

[13:18]

And so this, you know, the translation by Thomas Cleary, an appropriate statement. This is, you know, facing, responding, meeting, one, each one, each particular situation, question, being, moment, and then statement. expression, teaching, talk. So there's this kind of dense language. And so there's a lot of possibilities for translation. So, you know, an appropriate statement. A teaching in accordance. One preaching in response. Talk facing each one. A fitting reply. are speaking in tune with particular occasions. The question here is asking for the essence of the Buddha's whole life of teaching.

[14:28]

We could also look at this as saying, what does awakening do? Or how does Buddha manifest? It could also be, what are we here for? And so, in response, Yun-min points to this intimate responsiveness. A responsiveness that meets, accords with, or is appropriate to each question, each seeking heart, each moment, each situation. Meeting each situation is meeting myself and meeting what's happening and the dynamics of this encounter as it's always unfolding. So opening to the conditions here, opening to my reactivity, my field of conditioning arising in response to these circumstances.

[15:40]

And when I'm caught by my reactivity, I'm going through the motions of my past conditioning, my old pattern. And so reactivity has this, it's kind of closed or tight or cramped. And there isn't this space to receive or explore, well, how is this not like the past? How is this like nothing I've ever seen before? So being, you know, the sensitivity, an alertness, an aliveness to fully meeting what's happening. And that's where an appropriate response or an intimate response can arise. I'm seeing cultivating responsiveness in terms of softening with reactivity. Softening with And softening in, you know, what's happening.

[16:43]

And softening, especially with discomfort, with pain and with hard stuff. You know, it's like soft belly. Soft diaphragm. Soft heart. Soft neck. soft face, soft eyes, jaw, mouth, soft head, soft shoulders, soft back, soft hands. So to experience and really feel and befriend you know, my pain, my discomfort, my grasping, clenching, you know, defensive postures, holding.

[17:53]

And, you know, as I'm softening, if I meet something hard, be soft with that. So opening a kind space, right, you know, a capacious heart and, you know, being a kind friend to my reactivity, to whatever I'm working with, to my fear, my wounding, my brokenness. And this is caring for a body of responsiveness. So when I'm fully home, fully here, I'm more receptive, I can listen more deeply and develop an intimate relational presence. coupled with this inner work to actualize an appropriate response, an appropriate statement, an intimate response, a real sense of connection.

[18:57]

I need to show up. I need to be willing to manifest, to expose something of what's in my heart and my belly and how things are sitting with me here. And so how connection is real for us right here is not a fixed thing. It's dynamic and relational and always happening anew. And so this appropriate responsiveness, it's not so much about knowing and more about a sense of inquiry and openness. You know, what's here? What is this meeting? What is connecting here? And so making space, you know, frees up a capacity, you know, to meet and accord and some room to move and be flexible in responsiveness.

[20:00]

And, you know, I also feel this like being a student of this interaction, of this moment, of this meeting. A few weeks ago, I was standing in the kitchen of our house, and without warning, my son, Loka, who's nine years old, came up behind me and jumped on my back. And a few days before this, we were in a grocery store, and he was jumping on my back repeatedly. And it was just like having fun in the grocery store, and I knew it was coming. So I could brace myself each time he jumped on my back. And he's like, you know, he's like, you know, he's a kid and he has a lot of energy. He has a need for play and also a need for, you know, body to body physical contact, you know, something vigorous.

[21:05]

So, but, you know, when I was standing in the kitchen and I didn't know he was even in the same room, I was not bracing myself. And, you know, he's about 90 pounds now. And so this was an unexpected moment. And it was a surprise. And it was painful. And I was also, I had some fear that this could hurt me. This could injure me. And so I had an immediate reaction. And it was kind of an angry reaction. I was like, ouch, you know, get off. you know, kind of a flash of anger in response to kind of like what I experienced there as like a sneak attack. So noticing this anger, as soon as Loka got off my back, my first thought was like, you know, find some space. So pause, you know, don't have any more interaction yet.

[22:14]

because I could feel I was not fully stable with my anger. And my anger and that not feeling fully stable or safe with my anger, that's part of my reactive field, part of my conditioning. And responsiveness is where I'm going to work with interrupting that stream of passing on to Loka some of the conditioning that I received and that shaped me. So I took a few steps into the kitchen and drank a sip of water and breathed, you know, just took a few breaths. And then, you know, and I could see like, okay, you know, he was not attacking me. He just wanted to connect. And like we connected, you know, in the frozen foods aisle. And so in that space, I could open to something, you know, a little more complex. So I experienced an attack. he was doing this playful act of reaching for connection.

[23:17]

And these are kind of, you know, these both happened. And so then I could turn around and meet his desire to connect. And also, you know, try to help him understand how he has to be developing more carefulness with his strength and his size as he grows. And so, you know, taking a breath, or taking a step or slowing down, you know, creating some space to feel and explore and allow, you know, a quality of relationality to shift in that space to something more present, intimate and responsive, you know, an opening to more complexity and allowing, you know, for some contradiction, you know, some difference, you know, and this is the openness and inclusion of both and. versus the kind of contraction or exclusion of either or. Resist the seduction of reduction.

[24:24]

Reactivity often lacks the spaciousness of imagination. Responsiveness doesn't need to negate the small story of the reactive field, it can open around it. It can open a wider sense of what's happening, even with the reactivity. Again, it can't control my way or judge my way out of my reactivity. It's a process of illumination. And then responsiveness is this more expansive possibility, more dynamic, engaging imagination, and always a work in progress, you know, open-ended and relational. So entering a flow or a space of mutuality and reciprocity, you know, so not looking for closure, maybe not groping for closure.

[25:38]

And not seeking a one-size-fits-all response or truth or expression. And so I did not choose my conditioning. But responsiveness unfolds with choosing to accept responsibility for it. To care for my reactive field. And with time, transform that field. Heal wounds. Release old patterns. and opening then that kind of receptivity to be impacted, to be shaped by each one, meeting one response or talk. I think sometimes cancel culture can be a collective form of reactivity. Something's called out and rather than engaging in conversations that might be challenging or uncomfortable,

[26:41]

a reactive snap judgment and relegation, which tends not to be transformative and kind of maybe cuts off some possibilities for restoration. So hurtful actions need to be addressed, but a reactive way is not going to release the field of conditioning, individual or collective. So enacting a kind of shame-driven shutdown or abandonment is like a shadow side of accountability, lacking space, and cutting off the conversation or process of restoration. So what's a more responsive relational approach? Inviting each other to work together. for something difficult and opening into a mutuality of actual conversation, creating this moment together.

[27:48]

The Bodhisattva vow is not turning my back on any being. The old comments in the Blue Cliff record of this case include some phrases like, entering mud and water to die and be born together with you, stretching out the body in the tiger's mouth and following you for a thousand or 10,000 miles. So I hear these as Zen way of talking about love. and not a kind of safe or comfortable kind of love, but a love of walking into birth and death, holding hands together with all beings.

[28:50]

And so this is the whole life of awakening or responsiveness. So then I'm gonna turn to case 15. So it's a very closely related story. A monk asked Yunmin, when it's not the present intellect and it's not the present phenomena, what is it? And Yunmin said, an upside down statement. So I'll put that in the chat. This upside-down statement is also three kanji, and only one kanji is different.

[29:53]

Only one character is different. So the first character is to, meaning topple, upset, turnover, invert, mistaken. So then the second character is again ichi, one, and the third character is setsu, statement, expression, teaching, you know, talk. So the first one is tai i setsu, the second one Case 15, to isetsu. And so this is another kind of more, another kind of dense language response and very similar to this other, this appropriate statement. And some other translations are preaching in reverse. One teaching upside down. Talk, turning over each one. Turn that statement around. overturn this statement. And some commentaries say that the monk in this case is the same as in the previous case.

[30:55]

Some suggest this is a follow-up question. I looked back and there's like a record of Yunmin, and in his recorded sayings, these two stories are very far apart. The recorded sayings make it look like they're two different events. So we don't really know. And this question, part of how it's seen as a follow-up question is, an appropriate statement would fit the present intellect and the present phenomenon, mind and things. What's appropriate to this? And then so saying, well, aside from that stuff, you know, what's appropriate to, you could say, ultimate truth? What about Buddha nature? What about awakening? How do you meet that? Apart from mind, apart from things, what about that? And so then this Yunman's response, an upside down statement, you know, then we could hear that saying, that question is upside down.

[32:06]

That question is deluded. It needs to be turned over. The monk is trying to grasp at some ultimate truth, apart from conventional truth, apart from everyday stuff. Some true nature, some awakening, apart from just this, these circumstances, mind and things right here. We do hear teachings that you cannot grasp awakening through or in what's happening in mind or things. You can't grasp it. But we also can't realize or actualize awakening apart from just this, because it's embedded. It's unfolding here. In a broader sense, we could also look at an upside-down statement as pointing to

[33:08]

the space, the possibility or freedom, you know, which can open and releasing or disrupting any form of grasping or holding. And so, you know, case 14, an appropriate statement or intimate responsiveness. And we might say, you know, case 15, an upside down statement, top turning over each one. This is together. about a liberative responsiveness. A responsiveness is intimate and this intimacy involves a turning over, a releasing of grasping. And we could also say this is to get close and to let go. And affirming both of these, you know, because getting close is not holding on, letting go is not getting far away. Responsiveness is getting close and letting go.

[34:09]

And this is intimacy, softening. And it's a paradigm of relationality. And holding on and grasping or getting far away, that's enacting a paradigm of separation. But there's an image in the verse of Case 15 of dividing one token, or dividing a tally. And this can refer to taking something whole, usually like a piece of bamboo. I think it could be other types of material. And there might be something written on it, or just one word, or some way of having an agreement, or mutual recognition, and you break it in half. But then you have these two halves that can be fit exactly together.

[35:13]

And I hear this as an image of connectedness, of connectedness in differentiation, so dynamic connectedness. Intimacy is not becoming undifferentiated. It's not like a disappearing into oneness. And this is important for how an appropriate response does arise. And so it's not traversing separation to actualize some kind of perfect meeting. Every meeting is already intimate. Two pieces of a divided token. One of my triggers is being honked at when I'm driving a car. And this is just part of my particular reactive field with these deep roots in my childhood and the kind of reactivity I experienced while being a car passenger.

[36:27]

And so now it's inside of me. And when a beep or a honk, comes, I experience a jolt, a kind of a jolt of, I'm not okay, or I don't matter. And I didn't, you know, again, I didn't choose this. But appreciating that it's actually not personal in that way is, you know, can support me in just accepting responsibility for it, you know, without trying to deny it. or hide it, or get away from it, or shame it out of existence. And so this jolt is pretty uncomfortable for me. And this car hog is the trigger. So, you know, this is partially studying a trigger. And I offer a trigger here as a kind of an uncomfortable tip of a complex of conditioning.

[37:31]

And so working with my triggers involves a journey through rather than away from my uncomfortable stuff. And I see this as kind of vital to responsiveness. And so in this particular case, there's a core pain or a kind of woundedness of this not feeling okay or not mattering or feeling isolated. And I can react to this by seeing the car honk as an attack, and it's causing this pain. But really, the car honk is coming up, coming way after the establishment of this wound. So it's just, it has very little actually to do with the real pain. The pain really belongs to me. And I can try to fix this pain. in various reactive ways. I can just try to say, I'm okay, you're okay, Charlie.

[38:38]

I can try to just talk over it and fix it. But attempts to control and manipulate are often reactive. And what I find healing is intimacy or softening, soft belly, soft heart. Breathing, breathing into it and allowing for some spaciousness, something tender. And what's healing is not for me to blame my pain on someone else or to talk over it and try to fix it, but to connect with it. At its root, I see it as a wound of disconnection. So reactivity as a paradigm of separation is only going to perpetuate or recreate or deepen such a wound.

[39:39]

So healing involves a paradigm shift, like a turning over, an upside down statement. Healing is not covering over or getting rid of or not feeling or avoiding woundedness, but a dynamic process in relation to the wound. Becoming relational with the hurt and the pain. and the disconnection or being wronged. So deep healing involves a paradigm shift from the conditions through which the wounding took place, shifting to a paradigm of connection. And then there's this opportunity that when I get honked at, maybe I won't be so driven by that beep, that I can drive the car. Rather than being driven so also, I can be driven by my conditioning to vigorously avoid doing something that might lead someone to honk at me. But then I'm not fully in charge of my driving and not taking full responsibility for being with my triggers, my conditioning and pain.

[40:51]

And in a similar way, you know, is being in the driver's seat. and not being controlling, which is a form of grasping, but being intimate and responsive with fear, anger, woundedness, so that I'm not driven. Zazen can be finding myself on a seat of connection and belonging and mattering in a true sense. Intimately feeling the pain of I'm not okay or I don't matter, or not belonging, is itself sitting on this seat of connection and belonging. So the monk's question can be trying to grasp awakening apart from what's happening here. And sitting with confidence or faith in true nature or Buddha nature is to be totally intimate with this person.

[41:59]

a deep willingness to manifest as I am. Show up here as this sentient being. And, you know, grasping releases through intimacy. Sometimes a release is not available. You know, our path to release or in release is unique and particular with its own, you know, turns and unfolding. But developing some intimacy is always available. So I can't control myself into releasing grasping, but I can become aware of my efforts to control and opening a kind, welcoming space as a medium of responsiveness. So getting to know my triggers so I can turn around and meet things in a different way.

[43:07]

Reactivity gives my triggers a lot of power over my life. And then seeing how my triggers are not out there, they're in here, then I can welcome what's coming. And that there's not something going wrong in the universe. I just, I live in a world filled with potentially triggering events. And I'm part of this world for everyone else. So I, you know, that I and my actions can be triggering for others is also part of, you know, responsiveness. And the conditioning I don't illuminate shows up in my behavior for others, you know. all the time, which is one of the things we can study in Sangha and also any relationship. Zen sometimes celebrates spontaneity.

[44:19]

And I would offer that this spontaneity is not the kind of spontaneous reflex of reactivity but a responsive spontaneity flowing with intimacy and relational presence. And I would also offer that this responsiveness is not necessarily that I'm calm all the time. Sometimes an appropriate intimate response is passionate and intense. It can be an upside down statement, can be a shout. It could also be something very soft. A spontaneity is fully being this person. And what's spontaneous about it, I think, is that we can't see what, you know, my life in the next moment of relationality is going to be because it's not happening in terms of my ideas or my thinking.

[45:23]

It's always in a dynamic flux because it's completely relational. Always open to surprise. Allowing each moment, each meeting to be a process of discovery. Reactivity can be harmful to my relationships. And it functions to replicate trauma and harm. And this can apply to close family relations and also function on collective levels to maintain systemic harm. Systemic harm of racism, patriarchy, other forms of oppression. The harm and unskillfulness I receive can be the harm and unskillfulness I give. And so transforming reactivity I would offer is liberating my entire field of relationality. We are intimate with all beings.

[46:36]

We are creatures of connection. And the quality of our relationships makes a huge difference in our flourishing. So how do I show up fully for the relationships of this life? And is there something more important than how we show up for each other? And how we walk into birth and death, holding hands together with all beings. Thank you very much. May our intention equally extend to every being and place with the true merit of Buddha's way.

[47:40]

Beings are numberless. I vow to save them. Delusions are inexhaustible. I vow to end them. Dharma gates are boundless. I vow to enter them. Buddha's way is unsurpassable. I vow to become it. I want to thank everyone for joining us today. If you feel supported by the Dharma offerings of our temples, Please consider supporting San Francisco Zen Center with a donation at this time. Any size is greatly appreciated, and a link will show in the chat window now with different ways to donate. Jerry, you would also like to make a quick announcement before we take a break for Q&A.

[48:43]

Hi, thank you, Kogetu, and thank you, Charlie, so much for your Dharma talk. I have lots of reactions and responses, and I'm looking forward to the question and answer. For the Sangha here at the assembly today, I just wanted to announce that here at Gringolch, we've started a practice period. So people have come, new residents and continuing residents are in a practice period. So our Sunday talks will be moving to the Zendo. We're still not yet open to public in-person attendance on Sundays, but I just wanted to give a heads up that next week, the Dharma talk will be streamed from the Zendo And that will complicate and limit quite a bit the possibility for question and answer. So it's a little bit of a work in progress. We're going to see how it goes. Abbas Fu Schrader will be giving the Dharma talk. You'll see her on the Green Gulch Dharma seat in front of Jizo Sama there. So hopefully you will feel encouraged by that. And I'm sorry for the, yeah, the corresponding limit in the Q&A and discussion afterwards that that change will bring about.

[49:51]

So thank you again, everybody, for being here. And Charlie, thanks again for coming and speaking with us today. Thank you, Jerry. We'll be taking a five-minute break now for Q&A. If anybody needs to sign off and would like to say goodbye, feel free to unmute yourself. And tonight we'll be back maybe around 1108, 1109. Thank you. Thank you. Welcome back, everyone.

[55:39]

We'll begin Q&A now. To offer questions or comments, please click on the reactions icon at the bottom of your Zoom window. In that panel, there is a raise hand button. If you are on an older version of Zoom, this feature can be found in the participants panel menu. You may also offer questions or comments through the chat, and I can help ask for you. And just to note that when you're called upon, you will be requested to unmute. We have an offering from Terry.

[56:41]

I drew you I just loved your. Well, I guess I don't really have a question. I just really loved what you said about reacting and responding. And especially your examples from your own life, you know, which were very compelling. And I feel for me right now, I'm sort of in a new phase in a way, my life. And so how I am dealing with it in terms of my... Well, I guess I do have a question. My friend, my closest everything except lover, moved away. And I felt I had to cut off all contact with her because we were like communicating five times a week on Zoom and phone.

[58:00]

And I felt like I had to reestablish. I had to establish some equilibrium. Without her. And now I feel I'm ready to resume contact. I feel like I've really needed use this time very well and looked at my reactive torment. you know, at her leaving. And I'm really much more in the driver's seat about it. But I want to get in contact with her again. And I'm wondering if you have any wisdom or advice to say about me initiating contact after I cut it off.

[59:02]

And it's kind of a complicated situation with the most important person in my life? Well, to me, it sounds like you want to reach out. So I think that clarity is really important. I would just encourage you to express yourself fully. And if you feel like there was something maybe painful in the cutting off or the, you know, to acknowledge that? Yeah, I think it was. I didn't realize it, but yes, it was definitely painful for her. And I have to say, I think I had a desire to inflict pain on her. I need to acknowledge that to her, but I think that was part of it. That can be a part of anger.

[60:03]

And that can be part of the reactive formation of anger. And it's often rooted in trying to not experience our own pain. And so it's sort of like the blame thing and the lashing out. And I would be compassionate with yourself. And I think you could confess that you were angry and I think it's also understandable that you were in pain and what's most important to you now. Thank you. That was very helpful. We have an offering from Peggy and Mallory. This is Mallory.

[61:13]

And I just wanted to respond to what you said, because it was so helpful for me. And I've worked as a counselor with people for decades. And this is one of those sticking points. But now I have words for it. So thank you very much. Thank you. You're welcome. I normally don't talk in these Dharma talks, but I'm really struggling with reactivity. This past month and a half, my neighbor was doing construction. and the workers were playing blasting music 10 hours a day, six days of the week.

[62:22]

And so after about the first couple weeks, I started having an issue. I started having a problem with that because I work from home and I'm home all day. So I asked for them to lower it and they wouldn't. So the problem definitely got worse. And At the month mark, I couldn't take my anger anymore. I just so angry about this that they would be, you know, I was like, how can they? Because I would talk to the owner of the house and he would say, I don't think it's loud. If they want to play it, it's fine. And I would take to the workers nicely. And they were like, but it's not loud. And I was like, but it's in my house all day long. Yeah. Anyway, so yeah, I became very, very, very, very angry. I'm not sure, yeah, how to deal with that, really, like, I don't know. I don't know how to deal with that because it was nonstop, but I'm not sure. Do you leave the house? Like, how do you deal with that?

[63:24]

I don't know. Well, I mean, I think... I think the main thing that our practice can offer is trying to be present with our experience and be open to what comes up in response. So I definitely don't have any answers about what you should do. Sorry. But I feel like sometimes there are... We can be in very challenging circumstances. Things can get difficult and painful, and it's not in our control. And so it's not that we do nothing, but I feel like the responsiveness is grounded in being intimate with our pain and our difficulty in this situation.

[64:35]

And so that's, you know, and that, you know, I think we can have a responsive resistance that it has, it's a way that we're trying to take care of ourselves, but it actually can drive us crazy and create a lot of unnecessary suffering. And so, and that would be part of what I would encourage you to check out in yourself, you know, And, you know, looking at yourself and you're at the pain of the situation, what is the experience of having the music? What kind of pain is it? And is there also is there some holding or resistance to it? That's also something that you're adding to your experience. That's having its impact. And what is it like to release that if it's there? and see how that goes, you know, see how it unfolds.

[65:40]

And I think all the time, you know, this is, you know, as we become present, you know, you can keep having conversations and, you know, with the people and it might be if you come with different energy, they might hear you in a different way. I don't know, you know. And it does sound like they're being really disrespectful. That's really painful. To me, that sounds really painful. Yeah, I'm friends with them because I refuse to get into a fight with them. So I see the workers and they actually had to jump into my side to whatever for whatever they were doing. And I had a blast with them. But that didn't change, you know, I was like, because I enjoy people. But that didn't change the fact that the music was driving me up the wall. And so and making me angry, like you said.

[66:43]

And so I guess I don't know, the only thing I can think of now is, why don't I try sitting in that pain? See what comes out of that? I don't know, maybe I'll discover something, I'll learn something new about myself, just sit and breathe that pain, like just okay, this is really angering me, but like this anger, breathe it, breathe it in and out and discover it like a stranger, you know, inspecting something. I don't know. That's all I can come up with and say and think to myself, well, maybe there's an opportunity to learn something there by doing that. See how that feels. Cause I've never done that. When I get really angry, I love something like that. I just kind of try to avoid it, you know, go out, do something, stay away from it. And I'm thinking, well, what i can't i'm in the house this is where i live so how about i just sit and sit in that pain yeah and i i hear a lot of curiosity in in your approach and i think the curiosity will serve you well well you gave me that idea just now you just gave me that idea um so i'll try it

[67:56]

Because, I mean, now that I think about it, it's like, oh, boo-hoo. Yes, I'm going to be sitting in pain, but come on, Inez. There's a whole lot worse pain than that that people need to sit in because they can't escape it. So actually now I'm already kind of, it is working. You know what? That's a real serious illness. You can't escape that. That's way worse than having to sit in pain because your neighbor's making noise. So it's already working. So thank you. Okay, you're welcome. In the chat, we'll put an offering from Thomas. Hi, Charlie. Hey, good to see you. Thank you for your offering. I miss so much coming up to Stone Creek, so hopefully that will happen soon. But you said a few things that really push my buttons.

[68:59]

Good job there, right? But you said seduction of reduction. And I think that's really a big thing for me too. And actually practice has really helped me with that. Just seeing that for what it is, right? How I'm reducing everything to this like fight or flight kind of thing, right? And then I'd love to hear you talk a little bit more about Toichi Setsu, because I think of Buddhism as being the total upside down teaching. Like whenever I hear a great teaching, it's always like, oh, that's so Zen, right? The question is, the question is not the answer kind of thing, right? And then just lastly, I think since the pandemic, the driving in San Francisco, Nobody stops at stop signs anymore, particularly the ride share or the drive ride ride things, whatever they are, you know. And so whenever I do that and I make a point of stopping just just to be trying to be a good citizen.

[70:07]

Right. And I understand why it's not so dangerous because they can see that there's nobody to stop for. Right. And they're making their living by how fast they can get to their next. Drop off or whatever. but I always honk at them, you know, and just to say, I see you and you didn't stop. Right. And they always honk back like a little light one, like, okay. And I don't know whether it's the F you or I don't care or I got it. Right. But I'm, I'm, I'm working. Right. So anyway, but I'd love to hear more about the upside down teaching a little upside down. One image that comes to mind is the stream of samsara and then going against the stream.

[71:09]

That's one image that comes up in terms of turning things over or upside down. I feel like all these images, can't get too, um, uh, they only go so far, you know, so that like, you know, I, I feel like, um, uh, for me, you know, it's the main thing is that like, you know, if there's like a stream of disconnection, a stream of living in separation and, you know, grasping to this experience of separation, which we, we, well, there's this appearance of separation. This is how we see the world. This is how our perception and ideas give us a world. And so to get in touch with that grasping and release it. And to actually open into what is relationality?

[72:15]

What is connection? How does it actually live? And that there's a lot of space there and a lot of possibility in our life that we don't, that we just look past constantly because we're, you know, if we're living in a stream of grasping. And yeah, so I guess I also feel, I guess I feel me upside down. There is a kind of element of play, you know, which again is like responsiveness and that, you know, feeling of movement. You know, and I think Dogen, you know, sometimes talks about doing a somersault, you know, in Zazen. And I also, you know, I feel in that his play and his wanting to kind of express something about Zazen isn't about holding still. It's actually about releasing into, like, great possibility. And that this is what we are. You know, we're profoundly responsive beings.

[73:17]

Like, we're not... We're not machines. We're, you know, we're wonderfully creative and imaginative. And, you know, there's something really alive can happen in every meeting. I don't know if that speaks to your question. No, it does. I think one of the tough emotions that I deal with still, not so much when I was younger, was jealousy in my profession creatively. Do you know what I mean? And I tried to come to this place where I said to myself, don't react to this emotion, but respond to it. Like, why am I jealous? And it's because I'm looking at something that's really, really beautiful or good. And so I'm jealous that I didn't make it or do it. And that really helped me turn that around. Do you know what I mean? Because reacting to things is usually pushing it away, right? Responding is sort of like taking it in and seeing where it resides in your body, right?

[74:20]

Yeah. Yeah. I think responding is kind of grounded in the intimacy. And I think reactivity is like, I mean, a lot of reactivity is kind of based on avoiding my pain. Totally. That's it. Thank you so much for your teaching. Thank you. Thank you also for bringing up that there's different kinds of honks and beeps, because in my little thing, I get the jolts no matter what kind of beep it is. Then I might figure out later, oh, they weren't even beeping at me, or oh, that was like a friendly beep. Was that a friendly beep? But I'm sitting here all activated. I'm doing a quick scan through the video feeds just to see if anybody has their actual hand raised. Otherwise, we have an offering from Cynthia.

[75:25]

Yeah. Hi, Charlie. I remember the great sense of play when we were in China together. It was good reactions. between you. Thank you. Thank you. Good to see you. I don't see any more hands up. Might be complete. the morning. All right. Well, thank you all very much. Really appreciate being able to speak with you this morning. Take good care. If you'd like to unmute to say goodbye, do so now.

[76:35]

Thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks again, Charlie. Thank you. Thank you. thank you very much bye-bye thank you charlie thank you charlie that was really helpful thank you thank you charlie thank you charlie good to see you good to see you again. See you next time, Charlie. Don't be a stranger. Yeah. Thank you very much, Jerry. And thank you. You're welcome, Charlie.

[77:35]

Thank you for your talk today. Everyone, have a great rest of your day.

[77:46]

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