This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Thank you all for being here. It's a wonderful thing for me to be back in this room in this way. And I was invited to give a Dharma talk. But I think that title doesn't really describe what I hope this event is about. Because it's more than just a talk. Zen practice has a lot to do with participation. There's no bystanders in Zen practice.

[01:01]

We're all here to participate. And for me to participate in giving a talk, there's much more for me going on than the words I speak. And for you as participants, I hope that you will participate in more of what's happening here in this room than the meaning of the words I speak. I hope the words make sense. I hope they're valuable for you. But the words and their meaning is only a small part of what this is about here. And a dharma talk, because of the word dharma is part of it, the dharma is found not in

[02:04]

words or books and in fact i would maybe it's kind of provocative to say that the dharma was not found at green gulch the only place you'll find the dharma is in yourself and the dharma is something that is being manifested it's being expressed that's arising, that's being born, that's unfolding in us, where the words, the ideas, the meanings that could be spoken are one aspect of that manifestation, hopefully. But it's kind of only a small part of it. There's much more going on here. And so you've come, and whether you're here, whether you intended to or not, you are now participating in a bigger event than my words.

[03:17]

And I'm so conscious of this because of sitting in this room, in this Zen Dome, that I've sat in, meditated in a lot. And there's something about stepping into a zendo, especially a zendo with so much space, that I suspect a high percentage of you stepped in through the door and felt, you know, how you're in a different space. And something in your system shifted a little bit. Maybe you slowed down. Maybe you found yourself less inclined to speak. Maybe some of you found yourself a little bit respectful for this space. Something kind of, and one of the key things I think that space like this does, at least for me, it heightens awareness, heightens attention. Like, oh, now I'm here. Now there's something here to participate in.

[04:17]

And you don't just stumble in here or run for the closest seat. pick up the chair and bring it right up here because you want to be real close. You come in here and you kind of respect the place and how it's set up and the form. Something changes. Something about the place calls on something inside of us. So you're participating in something. And that participation is a special place, special thing. What I'd like to highlight is that it's not just about you, and it's not just about the place, what's outside of you. The talk is not about me, even though I'll be able to talk about myself, I think. And it's not just about you and what you think about it and your opinions and how it is for you. The Dharma or the specialness of the Zen practice here,

[05:24]

is what happens in the participation, what happens in the interface, what happens when these things come together and what arises. So I'd like to give you some examples of what I'm trying to say. Something that I'm very fond of is that when you have a sensation, any sensation at all, but a physical sensation, The place where the sensation occurs is the same place that's sensing it. Your knowing of the sensation and recognizing what it is, that's a mental act. That might not be in the same place. But if I push against the palm of my hand, the place where that pressure occurs is the same place where the hand is sensing it. If the finger is the outer world pushing against the hand, the participation is in that place where there's not really a duality, not really a separation, where the sensing and sensation occur together.

[06:40]

I use that example now to bring another example, especially from my vantage point and those of you in the back of the hall there. But you know, there's a lot of space in this room. It's kind of special. All the room and the space. And you can probably let your eyes roam around and get a sense of the high ceiling and all the space that's here. And especially the space between our heads and the ceiling. It's mostly empty space. And you can get a sense of that. Using that word, get a sense of it. But what sensations are you taking in? How is that being sensed? How do you know it? How do you feel the space here? In a way that's separate from the recognition and the knowing of it.

[07:46]

The awareness of the space, the knowingness, the sensing of the space, where does that occur? Is it in the space, in the room? Is it only in you? Is it somehow the meeting of the two? Is there some way in which all the space in the room that's here, in a God kind of way, is not distinct? from your sensing of the space. It's not like they're two different things. Just like sensing the pressure of my palm, my hand, and the sensing of it, they're not quite two different things. So in a way, you're participating with your awareness in the existence of the space in this room. If there was no one in the room, would it be spaced? Kind of like, you know, if the tree falls in the forest and no one gets there to hear it, is there a sound?

[09:01]

So here, the very sense of whatever the stillness of this room here, the sense of maybe for some of us the gravitas, the reverence, the sacredness, how it calls on us to be aware, we're participating, we're being participated with. the place we're in. When I was first introduced to Zen, it was by reading Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind. It'll be 50 years ago in about four months. And something happened in reading that book. Was it in the book? Was it in me? What was that special thing that happened as I read that book? What resonated? At the time, I felt that I was recognizing through the book, through the words of Shinriyo Suzuki Roshi, I was recognizing something that I already knew.

[10:21]

but didn't know that I knew. Somehow the words on the page came alive. Oh, yes, I know that, but something was born. Something appeared. Something came together. Something arose in that space that resonated very deeply in a very meaningful way for me. And was it the words, the meaning of the words? Maybe. But what I think back at those days 50 years ago, it was something different than words as well. It was something in my chest, something in my torso, something in my body, my heart, something that knew, something that participated, something that resonated, something that I couldn't say was me, couldn't say it wasn't me.

[11:25]

I couldn't say it was the book. It's there. But it was not in the book. What is it that we participate in that is not about you and not about me as we do this talk? If it's all about me, we're in trouble. If it's all about you and I think I'll do you a disservice. If you're listening from the point of view, what's this good about for me, whatever I get from it, and this is not what I agree with, and just wait until I get killed later, I'll give him peace of my mind. That might be nice in some ways, but if it's all about you, that's not where the participation happens. And if you're listening to me as if it's all about me, you know, this is an amazing thing to sit up here. I thought it was a little bit strange when I first sat down.

[12:28]

And I thought, I better not say that. Out of respect for this, for what, this respect for my love and care for Zen practice and all that. So I won't say it. And so, but, you know, if you don't, if you gave me the authority, all about what I have to say, then you lose something too. What is that middle way? What is the meeting place? What's the third way where participation arises? That's not about you necessarily participating, but you have to participate in order to make it happen. So, there's more happening here than the words. And I say all that as the lengthy introduction. to hope or to suggest that you let your attention be broad, let your attention be global, let your attention take in this experience of being here for these talks and for these words.

[13:44]

You might even want to consider that the Dharma talk, is a guided meditation where what's being said is pointing to or maybe even evoking for you something, some recognition, some knowing, something in your body, in your torso, in your mind, in your heart. But we have to make room for that to happen. Maybe I'll pause sometimes. So something else can happen besides just contending with the words that I speak. Maybe in the pause is where some of the Dharma can arise in you, if you're paying attention, if you're aware, if you're present. wanting to look over there, because that's where I sat my first sesheen, on that platform over there.

[15:06]

I think the second one, too. I think I was two down. The second time, the first time, I was one up from the wall. It's kind of like still 50 years ago. No, it wasn't that bad. It was probably 46 years ago for that. So I was introduced to Zen almost 50 years ago. And I kind of immediately thought, this is important. This is what I want to be doing. But even so, it took a couple of years before I really started doing Zazen, sitting Zazen every day. And when I started, I was in college. And I kind of did it. I had been a guest student at Zen Center here. So I kind of followed the same schedule, more or less, where I sat twice a day, every day except Sunday. That was a schedule at the San Francisco San Center back then.

[16:07]

And I started because I was suffering. But then something very unusual happened for me. The kind of suffering I was trying to address, kind of dissolved, kind of wasn't there after a while. I attribute it to just the regular sitting I was doing. I didn't understand what had happened, but especially when I sat, it wasn't there. And I'm a kind of rational person, and so the reason to meditate, to prazazin, had gone away. The reason was I wanted to stop suffering. And there I wasn't suffering. And so, and I kept doing it. I kept sitting zazen. And like, why am I still doing it when I have no reason? That became my koan. That became my question.

[17:12]

Because like, this is strange. What a strange thing to do. Twice a day for 40 minutes. I have a lot of things to do. I'm a college student. Why am I doing this? So, but I continued, and that question was in the background. And then one day, I think I understood. An understanding arose for me. And this understanding became very significant for my further kind of exploration of Zen over these last 50 years. That I was sitting Zazen not to attain anything, not to gain anything, not as self-improvement, not to get rid of my suffering, not to be wise, not to be enlightened. I was sitting zazen because it was the fullest form of self-expression that I knew, in the way that maybe an artist paints.

[18:22]

to express themselves. A dancer dances, a singer sings, a writer writes, a craftsperson does crafts. So many different ways that a life is lived. But to discover or to find something, this is the expression that wants to come out. That's why I'm sitting. It doesn't have to have a reason or a purpose. except to let space for this deep sense of self-expression to appear. Though I don't think I used the word self to myself without speaking before, 50 years ago, 48 years ago. This deepest kind of expression that wanted to come out. And so... What's being expressed in you right now? Sitting quietly.

[19:26]

This is not the time for you to speak. That'll come. But just here, being here now. What does it feel if you tune in and listen and feel and sense? What is moving through you? What is alive in you? What are the sensations and feelings? Some of what might be happening for you might be comfortable and nice. Some of it might be uncomfortable. Some of you might have a headache. Who knows what's happening for your physical pain. Some of you here come to Zen Center because you're suffering. And your suffering is here still. You're here looking for hope. Some kind of something that we said that would somehow support you, help you with it. And for me to say, to feel what's happening might have been bad news. That's not what you're here for.

[20:28]

But what is it that wants to be expressed? And if the task is to participate with it, not in terms of acting on it, but letting it course through us, let it fully be there, That is where we find our freedom, or we find freedom if we take the word R out of it. The freedom of really allowing it to flow through us as if we're there to let it participate with us. And there we start having this magic place, special place, that's not me and not it, but the meeting place of something profound, something deep that is almost... in Zen language, maybe non-dualistic. What is that? So, when I came to Green Gulch here, I came with this feeling of a very kind of deep satisfaction in sitting in Zazen.

[21:41]

It was a wonderful thing to sit there and let something that was not me, not something I had to figure out and... solve and get to and attain. And I was really lucky, I think, because I didn't know a lot about meditation and Zen. And it's kind of maybe a good thing not to know too much. And so I didn't know anything, this idea that you're supposed to get concentrated, maybe you're supposed to get concentrated when you sit and meditate. I had no idea that maybe I was supposed to have a quiet mind or no thoughts at all. The only thing I knew was I was supposed to show up for what is. I was supposed to show up and be present for what is here now. And I certainly learned a lot about how I wasn't present. But the funny thing is...

[22:45]

That was okay not to be present. There wasn't a problem. It wasn't like I was a bad ed student and had to kind of be angry with myself. All I had to do is to be present for not being present. And that's a funny thing, right? Then you're present. So whatever distraction, whatever thoughts, whatever feelings were that had me caught up in myself, I just showed up for it. Here for this. Just [...] for this. And what it did was it was an alternative to being reactive. It was an alternative to being overriding things. It was an alternative to being for and against things.

[23:48]

which is how I was mostly living my life, outside of zazen, and plenty of time in zazen. But this idea that there was another way of being, it was allowing an expression, allowing what is, allowing what's there, to be there. It was many years ago, I read some story by a Buddhist, where someone was very sad in the story, and tried many things to not be sad, until someone told this person, if you're sad, be a sad Buddha. Be a sad Buddha. If you're angry, be an angry Buddha. If you're happy, be a happy Buddha. Just be what you are.

[24:50]

But the art of that, which is very important, almost like it has to be a warning, that kind of teaching, don't act on it, necessarily. If you're angry, don't act on the anger and cause harm. But in Zahazen is a fantastic place, a safe place, to be an angry Buddha. Give anger its freedom. Participate fully to be present. Feel the sensations of anger. Feel that place where sensing and feeling the anger, the sadness, is non-dual, it's non-separate. The very place where we're feeling those feelings, that's where something new and different can happen. that can only happen if we're not relating to it through our reactivity, through getting caught in it or being pushed around, pushed by our feelings.

[25:55]

Something different begins happening. And one of those things is things begin to relax. Reactivity, all reactivity, wants to relax. if you're really present for it, if you're really tuned in, if you're really there, okay, I'm allowed to be angry, okay, let's just be here with it. If you participate in the anger actively, thinking of all the stories and how you were, how terrible that person was, then you're feeding the fire. But you don't have to pull away from the fire, you just have to be in the fire. And then the fire wants to burn out, even if there's no fuel for it. When I practiced Zen in Japan, one of the teachings I got from one of the great teachers there was, when hot, just be hot.

[27:00]

When cold, just be cold. When sad, just be sad. But it's not saying, suffer better. Suffer more. It's an alternative to the kind of reactivity that feeds the suffering, that feeds the fire. All reactivity wants to relax. So as I sat in zazen here in this room, and I'm looking over there. I've sat so many places here. the quality of the inner life changed. There was more sense of being settled, being calm, being unified. I had a feeling of greater integrity.

[28:03]

It was the word I used for myself 45 years ago. By that time, I wasn't meant ethical integrity. I think it was closer to a sense of feeling whole. all here now. And then I came to Green Gulch. And I didn't realize until later what I was doing. And I'll give an example. I was carrying with someone else something really heavy, big, heavy piece of something, wooden thing that was built or something. I don't remember where it was. I think from that area, the other side of this wall, to somewhere on the other side, up up that road, going up somewhere, maybe a store and get someplace. And it was really heavy. And I was holding it. That weight or the wood was digging into my hand. It hurt a lot. And the instinct or the orientation, what seemed to have the most...

[29:12]

rightness to it at the time was not to ask to, let's rest. Let's not, you know, I can't do this. I'm going to put it down and go to the beach instead. What felt right was to notice the reactivity that I had towards the pain. And the primary drive that made it difficult to be with the pain was not the pain, but was my reactivity to it. And I could see that the quality of my inner life, with the sense of integrity or wholeness that I had coming from zazen, was being compromised or being destroyed by that reactivity. And that it wasn't like I decided to do this. It wasn't like a choice almost. It was just like self-natural was, I don't want to give in to that.

[30:15]

I want to be free of that. I want to not have that reactivity around the pain get in my way. And so I tried to find how to have equanimity or peace or ease with the pain. It wasn't an easy task, but over and over again at Zen Center, that was a big part of the practice. And one place where an example where it was very significant was sitting sishins. We were sitting in these postures, hour after hour, day after day, and my knees were on fire. But back then at Zen Center, I don't know what it is now exactly, but there was a really like, you don't move. Nope, you don't move. And so my knees were on fire.

[31:16]

And the only way, at some point it got so bad, the only way that I could manage with it was I had to, again, look at my reactivity. And what I saw was when I got caught up in self-pity, and knee pain became unbearable. But if I release the self-pity, the pain was bearable. That was phenomenal. What? I don't want to participate in my pain that way. Participating with self-pity, that makes things worse. It just felt, it wasn't like I was told by anyone, you know, let go of your self-pity. It was obvious that that self-pity made the situation worse. So one of the great little sayings that you might want to put in your back pocket that will help you through Buddhist practice in your life is the little saying, don't make it worse.

[32:32]

Whatever you do, don't make it worse. You might not know what to do, but don't do the thing that makes it worse. So part of zazen was to see that, to understand that, and to have a reference point for that that was very different than the reference point you can have in my daily life. And to begin seeing that there was some kind of reference point to understand the impact of reactivity and what we're doing, and come back, or not to do it, to release it, was a very important part of this Zen practice that I did. So then finally, what I'd like to say is that... Another great question, a great little saying that I found, is the question, what wants to be born here?

[34:06]

What wants to arise here? What wants to come here? And that was a very important question for me in my Zen practice because I was learning to be present for what is. Just here, just for this here. But for a long time I thought what was here was kind of static. It's just like, okay, I just have to be here with this. But nothing is static. Everything is alive. Everything is perfect. percolating and moving and evolving and changing. And what wants to be born here, that question, is a question which helps us to get out of our own way, helps us to not live with our opinions, helps us to not live with our reactivity, helps us not to override things or push our way through. It's a way of giving a little bit of space, or a lot of space, to feel, to sense, or maybe even more profound, to allow something to bubble up, to allow something to show itself.

[35:23]

Because what you're allowed to unfold is where the Dharma is going to be found. But maybe not with what arises, but with how you participate with it. That means some kind of in-between, the meeting place. It's not about the experience you have. Some meditators are looking for bliss. Some meditators are looking for some fantastic experience of enlightenment or something special. Is that it? Is that the thing? If I just try harder here, then I'll get the thing. But that's not what Zen is about. It's not about a state, it's not about an experience, it's not about what is happening to you, but how you meet what is happening to you, how you participate in it, what is the relationship you have to it that's not a relationship of you to it, but somehow the meeting of these places.

[36:34]

And in that... in that practice, in the movement, one reference point for it is freedom. And that's very classic in Buddhism, that movement of Buddhism is a liberation of freedom. But maybe it's not that you will become free. Maybe it's not that you will be awake, but rather you are giving freedom to all things. What freedom are you giving to all things? The freedom from your reactivity, freedom from your conceit, freedom from appropriation or pushing it away or making a story around it.

[37:37]

We're giving freedom to all things. We're allowing everything to be awake in a certain kind of way, in that meeting place, that third way. It's not about you. It's not about what you're focusing on. But it's the freedom that can exist in the middle of it all. The freedom that allows something to be born, allows something to show itself, allows something to be expressed. That's not the reactivity. So this room here, is a place where people have been practicing now for, I think, about 60 years.

[38:45]

More, I think, 62 years? Amazing. Amazing place to step into. And now you're here. It's your turn to participate in what this room offers. And what can you give freedom to? What can you allow? What can you show up that's here? Whether it's in you or in the room or anywhere in between. It feels like, oh, this is a taste of what the Thāgata teaches. Remember that chant? He chanted three times. A taste.

[39:47]

Why in the world did I say taste? How did you taste it? What do you have to bring and feel and sense to taste the Dharma, to feel the Dharma, to beat the Dharma? these words are meaningful for you. And if they are not, you're welcome to leave them here. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our programs are made possible by the donations we receive. Please help us to continue to realize and actualize the practice of giving. by offering your financial support. For more information, visit sfzc.org and click Giving.

[40:52]

May we fully enjoy the Dharma.

[40:56]

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