And Paul and I talked a little bit about what we would do this morning, kind of unusual to share the Dharma seat, but very nice. So I'm going to say a few things first and then pass the baton to Paul, and then we'll open to all of you for your questions. So as Kodo said, we are in the end of the second week of our intensive, the Harmony of Zen and Vipassana. in which Paul and Gil Fransdale and I have been looking at these two traditions through the classical lens of the three trainings. Morality, shila, concentration, samadhi, and wisdom, prajna. So the first week we studied concentration practices in both traditions, and this week we've been looking at wisdom, and next week will be morality week. So before I turn toward the Buddhist precepts, Paul and I are going to talk a little bit together about how our experience of the Vipassana tradition during these three weeks being taught by our good friend Gil has perhaps better informed our understanding of Zen and in particular of Zen training.

[01:12]

So I actually had a pretty big insight, personal insight this week that resulted from... engaging with the guided meditations that were given by both Gil and Paul. Meditations that are based in the ancient teachings from the Pali Canon, such as the Four Foundations of Mindfulness, the Maha Satipatthana Sutta. So mindfulness of the body, mindfulness of feelings and of thoughts, and when possible in very deep meditation, mindfulness of the components of thought as they relate to the Buddha's teaching itself. So having followed the skillful instructions that were given by Gil and Paul and having watched my own mind turn toward and attend to the exquisite details of my body, of my feelings and my thoughts, I was suddenly struck by an appreciation of the contribution of Zen training in my experience and what it's made to what I'm going to be calling the other side of those explorations.

[02:19]

of myself, the other side being what it is that we do and how we do it once we leave the meditation hall. In other words, turning my attention back around from the details of my own seemingly internal clockwork and onto the external clockwork of the everyday world. And I want to say a little bit more about what I mean by that. So when I came to Zen Center, I was first given... in my view, a somewhat limited instruction on how to meditate. And then I was offered a number of tasks to attend to, cleaning the altars, sweeping, cooking, eventually helping to organize each of those managerial events and work practices. And I was told this was what we call our work practice, in which practice is taken from those early hours of sitting on a cushion and then performed through the varieties of tasks. that are required for our life together in community, and by extension, in society as a whole.

[03:22]

I was also told that the style of our house, the house of Sotozen in Japanese, means careful attention to detail. I then began to study with Mrs. Suzuki, the Japanese tea ceremony, which seemed to me to be the artistic performance of our school's primary mission, careful attention to detail. So in my view, the mindfulness training of the Vipassana tradition, together with the mindfulness training of Zen, make a complete whole. Inwardly, the mind, and outwardly, our activities in the world. So with deep gratitude for the contemporary nature of these two essential elements of Buddhist teaching, I want to say a little bit more about the Zen side and the side of enacting our practice in the world. And I'm going to use as the example my years of study of tea as the case in point. And I could also speak about learning how to offer incense or eat with an oreo-ki set or wearing Buddha's robe, chanting Buddha's teachings as further evidence of the many beautiful ways that Zen has come to actualize the fundamental point, as Dogen calls it in his teaching, the Genjo Koan.

[04:37]

The fundamental point being the mind of awakening, instructions for which... Here in Dogen's own words, studying the Buddha way is studying the self. Studying the self is forgetting the self. Forgetting the self is to be actualized by myriad things. When actualized by myriad things, your body and mind, as well as the bodies and minds of others, drop away. No trace of realization remains. And this no trace continues endlessly. So as we study the Buddha way, the self, through mindfulness of all the many elements and tendencies of the self, we forget the self. We drop body and mind and we enter, as Gil has taught, the steady current within the stream of our existence that carries us along on the Buddha's enlightened teachings. Forgetting the self as we turn the gaze of our attention back toward the world, we are actualized by myriad things. the tea bowl, the whisk, the hot water, and above all, the guests.

[05:41]

When actualized by myriad things, our body and mind, as well as the bodies and minds of others, drop away. No trace of realization remains, and this no trace continues endlessly. That sounds very nice, doesn't it? It does to me, and so it is, just like a bowl of hot green tea. So here are a few more thoughts about how the ritual aspects of making a bowl of tea exemplifies the heart of Zen practice, beginning with a haiku written by Mitsu Suzuki sensei in honor of her husband. First calligraphy of the year. Today again, I write beginner's mind. First calligraphy of the year. Today again, I write beginner's mind. When I first heard the title of her collection of poems, A White Tea Bowl, I thought to myself, I've never seen a white tea bowl. And I thought, I'd really like to see one. So tea ceremony is an expression of Zen itself.

[06:46]

It has just this kind of effect on people who practice it. We love to see, touch and talk about these objects that had been brought into the tea room for that day and to hear what are called their transmission stories. Stories about how and when this object was made and what kind of clay, what kind of glaze, who the artist was, who acquired the object, and who is taking care of it now. So it's these stories in exquisite detail that empower these objects, thereby revealing to us their aura and establishing the strength of their presence. For example, there's the tea bowl itself, the chawan. such as the one that was given to my teacher by her mother over 80 years ago when she was just a little girl, or the one memorialized by Suzuki Sensei in the haiku that she wrote for her husband shortly after he died. I pour Sencha into the white porcelain tea bowl he loved.

[07:49]

And then the tea scoop, some of them carved by Suzuki Roshi's son, Hoisa Suzuki. And the tea whisk and the lovely tea caddy, inside of which is a little mountain of green tea that was formed by my teacher. Eventually, we talk about all these items in the alcove of the tea room, which is called the tokenoma, such as the lovely woven flower basket that Suzuki Roshi had repaired for his good friend. And here in America, the couple called Mr. and Mrs. Tappi. Nakagawa, excuse me. Mrs. Nakagawa has been my tea teacher now for many years since Mrs. Suzuki returned to Japan and then sadly passed away. So of all these objects now have been imbued with the presence and the kindness of these remarkable teachers as the founding family of the San Francisco Zen Center. And I think tea is all about feelings as far as I can tell. Those exquisite feelings that come from being with old friends from learning new things, from honoring age-old crafts, but most of all from the dance.

[08:54]

It's the dance, I think, that gets you hooked on tea or on Zen and on life. As Paul has been saying, the dancing together creates the delightful rhythms of Zen training throughout our working day. Cutting carrots, cooking the rice, cleaning the Zendo, hoeing the fields, putting the library books back on their shelves. Careful attention, detail. So each of these actions as in the way of tea and in the way of Zen requires of us as students to rely on the innate wisdom of our bodies as well as on repetitions of daily practice. Tea itself is in fact a very tightly woven net of highly visible consequences informed by your level of training from which there are only a very few elegant ways to escape. So if you drop the whisk or you forget to add water to the tea or you leave the room without a bow, all of which I've done, you receive the unwanted, albeit kindly, attention of your teacher and of all your comrades in training.

[10:00]

If we become frozen in the course of our training, someone will most likely remind your body of what it needs to do next. I can remember many times Suzuki Sensei's voice ringing in my ears, Fusan, many times I have told you. Little front, saido saido, meaning the placement of my fingers on the tea bowl. One of the most basic and simplest of instructions. Much akin to Dogen Zenji's instruction for upright sitting. Think, not thinking. How do you think, not thinking? Non-thinking. Now, how many times have I told you this is the essential art of Zazen? Over and over again. So as I said, whether in the tea room or in the zendo or the Buddha hall at Page Street, practicing is all about feelings, feelings that lead us to know how wonderful it is to be alive, whether standing, walking, eating, or working alongside our friends, feelings that are all too easy to forget. And so we practice them again and again. We practice having feelings, all kinds of feelings.

[11:05]

So personally, I've decided after nearly 30 years of studying tea and 40 years of studying Zen that the entire enterprise is designed to challenge and thereby to re-educate our neuronal pathways. The pathways of form, feeling, perception, impulse, and consciousness. The very five heaps that make up the Buddha's teaching that we call the self, the illusory self. And although not truly there, it is the only thing that we've got that can be trained. So the roots of tea and Zen have been entwined from their earliest beginnings in China. In fact, it's rumored that tea plant itself grew from the eyelids of Bodhidharma when he tore them off and cast them to the ground in his determination to stay awake while sitting upright in a cave. So that's why these Daruma dolls have these big unblinking eyes. It may be more factual that the drinking of powdered green tea called matcha entered Japan from the Song dynasty in China at the end of the 12th century. with the Buddhist monks who had gone there to study Zen.

[12:09]

At first it was used to overcome their drowsiness during long periods of meditation and soon after was recognized as a cure-all medicine, being fully loaded with both caffeine and vitamin C. So of the many stories about the tradition of tea that I particularly like, the ones about Sen no Rikyu, the 16th century tea master who perfected the tea ceremony, raised it to a level of art. Senorikyu reestablished the practice of tea and all of its aspects in keeping with his earlier monastic forms. Under Rikyu, the ritual, the utensils, the tea garden, the landscaping, and the tea house itself were all governed by the aesthetic ideals of Wabi, meaning deliberately simple in our daily living, and Sabi, appreciating the old and the faded, thereby the saying that tea and Zen are one. Here's a brief story about Riku's practice of tea that we Zen students really like to repeat. One day, Riku was invited by a tea grower, a farmer, to come for tea.

[13:14]

The tea grower was very fond of the tea ceremony, and he practiced as often as his time would allow. Riku arrived at the old man's tea house, bringing with him one of his promising young disciples as a second guest. Being very nervous, his hands visibly shaking, We've lost your sound. Can you hear me now? Okay. I'm sorry. My internet. Later, I'll tell you the panic I had this morning. But anyway, let me continue. The story of Riku. Did you hear that beginning of that? Yeah. Okay. So Riku, with his young attendant, has just had this bowl of tea from the farmer, and the farmer has made a number of mistakes. At the finish, Riku says to him in all sincerity, this tea you have made for me is the finest.

[14:20]

So on the way home, the disciple asked Riku how he could have made such a comment after this amateur performance by that man. Riku replied, he made tea for me with his whole heart. When you can do that, you too will be a master of tea. So when I think about Suzuki Sensei, and I think about Zen practice, wholeheartedness is certainly the dominant quality through which we are asked to live our lives. Whether Suzuki Sensei was teaching us tea, or she was doing her exercises up and down the hallways, or whether she was singing children's songs at the top of her lungs, or carefully bowing each time she passed in front of the kaisando, And each time she passed by each of us, she was wholehearted. So I would propose that through the wholehearted practice of art or work or sitting or through sharing the old and the new, a synthesis is evolving within Buddhism as it wends its way ever further from the West. I think we are learning and even more deeply, I trust that we are.

[15:24]

And yet there is so much more for each of us to learn and among them, how to be a good guest and how to be a good host. a profound social form which among all the world's cultures, the tea ceremony may know best. It's also what Zen practice may know best. The host and guest are not two, and yet they are not the same either. There's something in that relationship that each needs to learn from the other by taking turns, by altering our points of view. The essential meaning is that there is no essential meaning referring to something other than itself. While making tea, You make tea. While eating lunch, you eat lunch. While washing the dog, you wash the dog. It's so simple and yet almost no one can pull it off. We lost you again, Fu. Fu, we lost you again. Can you hear me now?

[16:29]

Yes, you can. OK, great. So while washing the dog, you have that part. OK, when you're washing the dog, wash the dog. When you can't be heard, you're not heard. It's so simple. And yet almost no one can pull it off, pull off the veil of concepts through which we continuously evaluate and view the world. You know, that's my tea bowl or today I'm going to have soup for lunch or what dog, you know. So perhaps it's not a matter of time or some duration of time. It's always exactly what is happening right now. It's always in the form of you yourself as both the host and the guest of the present moment. Whether you're walking, kneeling, serving, or receiving offerings, the practice of awareness rises as a boundless stream when you and the world appear inseparably together. Nothing to hold on to. Nothing to break. No one to protect. and no one to hate. So how about you? Shall we sit together, work together, and after we do, shall we have a bowl of tea?

[17:34]

Wouldn't that be nice? Thank you very much. Thank you. That was lovely. You're welcome, Paul. You wove together some beautiful images. It reminded me of what I love about Zen. And then in a way, how I was always more comfortable in the workshop than in the tea ceremony. It reminded me of the sixth ancestor. And I don't know how much these details are accurate. In some ways it doesn't matter. I actually relish in the notion that the Zen way was founded by a person who may not have existed.

[18:44]

Modern scholarship still wrangles with the notion. Did Bodhi Dharma really exist? was Vodhidharma the compilation of a couple of different people that for convenience sort of coalesced into one person. So it's easier to say there was a founder rather than, well, there was a combination of different people's ideas and that founded Zen. my own disposition enjoys the fact, maybe our finder didn't exist. When you delve into Buddhist teachings, you can start to say things, given the scholarship and the research and the historical physical evidence, you can start to say things like, almost certainly,

[19:53]

Shakti Muni existed. Now, all those teachings that are attributed to him, well, almost certainly he said several of them, many of them, and almost certainly there's some that were just added later. To me, it's representative of the fact that that in a very interesting way, as we hear the teachings, as we experience the teachings, as we practice the teachings, there's a subjective bias. Even if it's just, of all the things Fu just said, what stood out for me? And then we can extend that. We can say, of all the things and the practices, and the Dharma talks I've heard over the extent of my practice time.

[20:57]

What stood out for me? And then maybe more interestingly, what has become part of me? And what is now an integral part of how I express the Buddha Dharma? When I think of myself, at a certain point, I lived in Japan and I learned a lot about Zen. With the emphasis on, I learned about Zen from, I became good friends with someone who was training to become a Soto Zen priest. And he gave me, he guided my studies. He'd say, read this book next and then read this book next. But then there was a beautiful quality to it all, was that my Japanese was pretty much non-existent. His English was quite good, but when you get into the intricacies of Zen ideas, you can't be sure.

[22:05]

Like here's a wonderful for instance. I said to him once, what is karma? And he tapped the table. And I didn't know he didn't understand what I said, maybe he said, he thought I said, you know, what is the substantial existence? And he responded appropriately. So that kind of training was wonderful because I could never say with conviction, okay, I know what karma is. It was more like... Was that a wise teaching that I'm just too stupid to get? Or did he not understand me? Or is he pointing the finger at what's considered to be conventional solid reality? After a year in Japan, I went to Thailand.

[23:14]

With the intention of practicing. I went to... a Thiravadan temple. It was a Vipassana center where you could go for retreats. I asked if I could learn meditation there. And their way of teaching me meditation was to plunge me into a 10-day solo retreat. I didn't quite get it, you know? The... They sort of fed it to me bit by bit. Oh yeah, we'll teach you how to meditate. And you'll be staying in this room, about three feet wide, about seven or eight feet long, with thick walls to insulate the signs. And I stayed in that room for 10 days. I left to go to the bathroom. And so my introduction to meditation, my introduction to practice, my introduction to the Theravadan tradition was immersive, intense and full immersion in what it is to have a human consciousness.

[24:49]

in a way we could say it worked. I come out of that room, three feet wide, eight feet long room, with the notion, it's like, okay then, that's it. That's the rest of my life defined. And in some ways it has been. My engagement in what I think of as the Buddha way is the teachings of immersion in existence. And as I've gone on since then, done a lot of things, a lot of things related to practice, you know? One way or another, I stayed in Thailand for a couple of years, culminating in, for the last six months of it, being ordained and living in the forest.

[26:08]

And interestingly, here's an image that came up for me when I was, when Fu was talking. I was in the forest, spending almost all my time alone. We would gather together at dawn, walk to the village, get food, eat it, and then go back. of our separate dwellings in the forest. And in that time, in the forest, or jungle, I'm not sure which way was best descriptor, I felt like I was becoming more feral, you know, less part, less the consequence of society, and more elemental in existence. Like on an average day, I would meet insects, creatures, animals that lived in the forest, the birds, the trees, the plants, and

[27:24]

the notions of society, like where it had come from, even my own ideas started to feel more like whimsical constructs. And then from there, went back to Bangkok, flew to San Francisco on the advice of someone I'd met in Bangkok, another monk, and came to San Francisco Zen Center, and carried that kind of feral approach to Zen, which, in my own workings, I align with the sixth ancestor, Huynum, considered to be an uneducated woodcutter. The skeptical part of me says, Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't.

[28:26]

But what the heck? Let's go with it. That kind of, he didn't come at it with a sophisticated, well-versed, well-educated in book learning. He came at it with a kind of, the genius of the human condition. that way each of us has a capacity, innate capacity when we settle. When something in us that creates a fuss settles down and allows the wisdom of what we are, the deep sanity that arises when we just accept our individual being and our collective being.

[29:36]

So being in the jungle in Thailand, right back to that initial 10-day retreat, something imprinted, in some ways, still there, still makes sense to me, not in an intellectual way, but in a kind of literally primitive way. It's how I see the core of practice. And then in this last couple of weeks, of the intensive. To hear Gil and Fu expand the Dharma, give pointers on how to practice the Dharma, it's become a very informative counterpoint to my own tendencies.

[30:50]

It left me thinking, How intriguing and valuable and informative it is for each of us to think, what were my formative experiences with regards to the Buddha Dharma? And how do I relate to them now? How will they shape my future in terms of my spiritual practice? And I think of this intensive, and I think of this time of the awakening of Buddha Dharma in the West as an auspicious moment. Here we are, equipped with the internet. Able to access, you know, you want to hear Tibetan teachings?

[31:57]

In five minutes on the internet, you'll find YouTubes of wonderful teachings. Do you want to hear Vipassana, Thiravadana, Zen? Exactly the same. We have now access in a way. Bodhidharma went the whole way from southern India to China. Probably took months and months. Maybe it took a year. Chinese monks would walk across the country. They'd walk a thousand miles to visit a teacher and hear his teachings. We're not obliged to do that. Maybe to our detriment. But that's how it is.

[32:58]

And here we are, also able to appreciate our local society, their national society, and our global society, to see the influences of it. This is an information-rich time for us. With what eyes and what heart do we see it? With what biases do we come to it? And how does all that influence and shape our engagement in the Buddha Dharma? And how will we collectively help it to flourish? Like here at San Francisco Zen Center, you know, Like everywhere else, or almost everywhere else, we sort of shut down our in-person activities during this period of COVID.

[34:12]

And we're, we think, on the verge of opening up. Will we endeavor to resume what we were before? Or is this time for a paradigm shift? And I think what we're doing now in this intensive, in comparing and contrasting and harmonizing these different teachings is sort of setting the stage. And I think listening to you, the specimens of this time in society, in this time of the history of the Buddha Dharma as pioneers on the journey of Western Buddhism. And so we'd like to pass it over to you now and hear your questions and your comments.

[35:22]

That they may be a contribution to how practice takes shape in the West. That they may be a contribution to how San Francisco Zen Center, it tries to shape itself to meet the current needs of expressing the Buddha Dharma. That's our vow. That's the reason we have the organization, is to make accessible the teachings and to create an opportunity for them to be practiced. So now we'll switch over to kind of questions and comments from you, the great assembly. Thank you, Paul and Fu. Shall we do the Bodhisattva vows as we transition into Q&A? Sure. Assembly, you can find these in the chat.

[36:34]

May our intention equally extend to every being and place with the true merit of Buddha's way. Beings are numberless, I vow to save them. Delusions are inexhaustible, I vow to end them. Dharma gates are boundless. I vow to enter them. Buddha's way is unsurpassable. I vow to become it. So we have quite a quite a stretch of time for questions and answers. That is delightful. A reminder of our practice of move up and move back. The intention here is to make space for Folks who tend to move back and stay silent can come forward and ask a question. Those who tend to move forward, consider moving back.

[37:35]

And please raise your hands as I see Tim and Trey have already done and I can help unmute you. Thank you. Tim. Thank you. I've been stepping back for a few months now, so I'm going to step forward. Thank you both so much. This is just an amazing intensive that I was very excited about. Thank you, Fu. It sounds like it was your idea. Thank you so much. It's just wonderful. And I'm intrigued, Paul, with what you just ended with about a paradigm shift. I would like to keep that conversation going as much as possible. Fu, you said earlier in the week, I think it was, all the... The lectures are sort of getting mixed up. I don't know which day it was, but you said that sometimes Zen students don't know that much about Zen. And I've heard this complaint before. Usually it seems to come from Tibetans who find us mostly ignorant about the Dharma.

[38:47]

But my argument is that we actually know too much. This is the first time in Buddhist history that all extant versions of Buddhism have come to one culture, you know, in a relatively short period of time in the last hundred years. And we actually know too much and are spread too thin. And I feel like that has always been a problem for me in my practice, which only goes back a couple of decades. My first practice was Vipassana, and now I've been at Zen Center for many years. And I just really value this intermingling of the two that you three are doing. So I really hope that this can continue, this mixing together, because I feel like Zen has missed, has sort of left out the concentration element that Vipassana brings.

[39:49]

It was great of Spirit Rock to drop all the tiresome ritual of forest practice, but we Zen practitioners see the great value of it. So I'm wondering, how do you guys, both of you see, what are the possibilities for a paradigm shift? Other than just... Go ahead, go ahead. We want to see you be reckless and foolish and tell us your version as well. Oh, okay. Okay, well, I'll get back to you on that. Oh, no, no, no. That's not very Zen. This is a Zen world, Tim. We want it right now. Yeah. Well, I feel like we really throw people in the deep end with our instruction. meditation by saying count your breath for a little while and then shikantaza just sit and uh vipassana asks us endlessly to concentrate focus on uh the breath the body the mind scans do scans and in the middle is something that

[41:12]

each of you are getting to at one point every day so far in the last two weeks. And I would like that to be, I'm gonna say something terrible now, institutionalized. Something institutionalized. Because I have learned the importance of institutions. And I think that these are two institutions that of Vipassana and ours of Zen, which are just established enough in the United States, in the Western culture, and just new enough in this culture to benefit deeply from each other. And so I really want there to be a continuing of this. I don't know how to do it other than there's an opening in my heart that is being met here.

[42:18]

So I hope that's enough of an answer. For now. Okay, good. Thank you. Thank you, Tim. We do have a committee that's working on this, so you might want to join the committee, which is what institutions do. Let's see. Tim, we might have muted you a little early. Let me see if you had a... I saw your lips moving a bit. I just said, oh no, when Fu said there's a committee. I'm glad you muted me because that's not a pro-institution thing. Well, the thing is, Tim, everyone wants to eat the bread, but very few want to make it. This is part of the dilemma. I will seek out this committee, so thank you. So next, Trey and then Katrina, and then I'll call on myself. So Trey. So I was thinking of the story of Bodhidharma ripping out his eyelids to stay awake.

[43:30]

And I hear people say, stay awake, don't go back to sleep. But then I think about my bed, which seems to be as important to me as my cushion. And I guess my dreams that I have at night and I was wondering what the difference of staying awake, paying attention to detail. There versus staying awake, paying attention to detail here. Is it seems to me like dreams or have as much detail and teachings and practice discussions that happen there. and that have to seem a relationship during the day. Paul, do you mind if I take a stab at that since it's very much a point that... Thank you. So I went with, you know, during Shosan, which some of you know about, it's a question and answer that a Zen student goes forward in front of the entire assembly and asks the teacher a question that everyone hears.

[44:39]

the teacher's response to your question and it's it's uh quite powerful and i had gone when i was at tasahara and mel was leading mel weitzman our beloved past habit uh was leading the practice period and i went to him my first practice period and i said dreams are sweet i love to sleep what do you have to offer and he said go wash your face Oh, we just lost you. Oh. No. Yours. Oh. Is it back? Am I back? It's back. You're back. It's back. It's back. It's you. So what he said was, go wash your face. Go wash your face. Which, you know, on one level was very insulting. But, you know, I was embarrassed.

[45:40]

My face turned red. And on another level, I have never forgotten that admonition. And I think that's what, you know, dreams are sweet, but wake up. You know, and what is that? So I think the exploration is for each of us to understand, as the Buddha did, what's the difference between dreams and sleep? You know, Mara, the evil one, was an illusion. Anyway, that's my way of talking about it. So, Paul, yours. Oh, I think we'll just pass on. Excuse me, Trey, just for the sake of trying to cover, listen, and respond to as many questions as possible. Thank you, Trey. So, Katrina. Thank you. I remember way back. I don't even remember the year, but... when the EPP was started and I begged you know I wrote emails to Paul and asked if somehow this could be you know we could receive it on the east coast as well and we did to a certain extent the sound wasn't like it is today but you know to me I can sit alone I've been here a year and a half alone

[46:55]

And I have really the world. I have the world. Open to the world. And to watch the three of you has been just so intimate, even though we're thousands of miles away. And it's like Dharma in action. Because we can see the interaction between you with the different philosophies and ideas. And then we can participate. By actually asking. And for me, who has a very limited vision, and I can, if when I'm at the San Francisco Zen Center or in any place, any Zendo, I can't see. I just see shapes, you know, and sometimes Paul's extra tall. And I think, oh, that must be Paul, but I have no idea because I can't see. And I get to see close up. I get to see your expressions. I get to see the expressions often of the... I like when it's very sweet that it's almost like they get invited to the table. And I just like you mentioned a metaphor of the rock tumbler.

[47:56]

And I think of that this as being the huge global rock tumbler where we all get to tumble together and become these Dharma jewels. And I just I can't thank you enough. And I hope, you know, I want the pandemic to get all. better and everything, but boy, do I not want to miss these interactions and being present with you all. So thank you. Oh, thank you. Thank you, Katrina. That was lovely. I love the image of a global rock tumbler, you know, that here we all are smoothing off each other's rough edges. Make us all happy. Thank you. Thank you. I so rarely ask a question in the Q&A.

[48:57]

Yeah, thank you so much. Katrina's point brought to mind what a valuable thing I think this exchange has been for all of us and will continue to be in terms of priest training specifically. Really getting to watch how response, inquiry and response happen. Very profound training. So that arose incidentally. What I really wanted to ask you about has to do with the name, of course, Harmony of Zen and Vipassana, and recognizing that just holding this program, I think, is a movement in that direction, that publicly we're willing to have a conversation like this between the three of you and all of us. And something I haven't heard yet, which I think would be really nice to address, is the history of some little touch of the sectarianism that's been there in the traditions. Not to bring conflict into the party, but I think that's an important piece to address while we have the opportunity is that each tradition, or let's say,

[50:17]

I actually don't know about how the modern new Vipassana tradition, I haven't heard about a lot of sectarianism from that direction, but certainly in the older Theravada tradition, there's some sectarianism with regard to the Mahayana, and there's certainly some well-enshrined sectarianism from the Mahayana side talking about what the imagination is about the Theravada. So in a certain kind of way, I'm happy. One of the reasons I'm happy to have this discussion is we can't, the oversimplifications are no longer tenable because we're bringing the ideas into contact in one room. It's so, so fruitful. So if either of you are willing to address that, it's an issue that's really important to me. Paul? Okay. Thanks, Paul. My experience, Cotto, is over the last 20 years, there's been a constant revision of what we thought we knew for certain about the emergence and the development of early Buddhism.

[51:35]

For instance, there was an academic, Gregory Chopin, and he decided he would go to India and look for statements about the bodhisattvas that were carved, you know? And then he could say, okay, that was carved in the second century, and there it is. It's been passed down through 20 iterations. There it is. And he discovered that our trite notion, oh, well... Up until then, the practice was primarily for monastics, and then the Bodhisattva vow introduced lay practice. He said, that's not at all what's written on those beautiful stone carvings. It was an attempt to return to the original ethos of Shakyamuni. So constantly we're getting revisions, and I think not to dismiss

[52:43]

you know, the teachings we have so far and the learnings we have from the evolution and history of the Buddha Dharma, but to just allow for a certain amount of uncertainty, you know? And as far as we can tell, this is what that was, as far as we can tell. And then in modern times, as many of us who've practiced for decades can attest. Like I remember in the late 70s, when people like Frank and Fu and I were arriving, we didn't say this out loud, but you could sort of tell by our smugness that we had the best Zen teacher and we were the best Zen center. And then the guys down in L.A.

[53:47]

and maybe over in Rochester, they sort of thought something similar. But we never said this out loud because we were too cool to do that. And then one after another, we had our... What's a kind word to put it? I want to be a little bit more bold in disruptions. We had our... There's a phrase I'm forgetting. Fall from grace. Fall from grace. We had our thank you food. That's beautiful. We had our fall from grace. And then so did they. And so did they. And it was like, okay, maybe we're not so special. Maybe we're not so perfect. And I think that has stayed with us. You know? And like when I get together now with teachers from all sorts of traditions, I don't feel any competition, you know.

[54:52]

It's more like appreciation, friendliness, and in some ways a beautiful sense of togetherness. Like I think the word harmony is genuine. And I think, you know, there's some notions. How does the archetype of Arahant compare to the archetype of Bodhisattva? How does the archetype of monk, priest, and layperson, what roles are they going to play in the emerging paradigm that we're all part of? Are we going to create as they did, as far as we can tell? In India, in the, I don't know, somewhere between five and a thousand years after Shakyamuni, they created temples with different traditions practiced together.

[56:02]

Even today in India, the notion that you would have a center that only practices... in one tradition is a little unusual for them. And I think how lucky we are that we have these formidable questions. And I also think we will create notions, oh, we're gonna do this, and we'll set off with that notion. And then it will turn out the way it turns out. It's like with each one of us. I'm going to sit down here and I'm going to be fully attentive in the moment. Okay? Let's see how that goes. I think this is how we'll add to the future too. Thank you. I want to add, excuse me, I just want to add one little thing.

[57:05]

Speaking of sectarian, I joined them in interfaith councils wanting to get us far away from buddhism as i could possibly get and still be with religious people and so rabbis and imams and it was fantastic nuns and you know we we were and as we came to say of ourselves we are not like-minded but we are like-hearted and i think that for me i don't care what tradition you're in like-heartedness to me is human religion in its best form Thank you both so much. In the queue, I see Glenda then Frank and then Nancy. Good morning. Can you hear me? I really appreciate all of this discussion. I came one of the first retreats I ever went to

[58:08]

San Francisco Zen Center was with Paul and Brother David on quite that topic of interfaith kind of practice and art. And it was just wonderful. And what I want to point out that's coming up for me today is the sort of the juxtaposition of the very detailness that comes through in Zen, in its forms, most particularly in tea ceremony that you were talking about, where it's an everyday activity, but the focus is on every little minute detail, you know. And Paul, bringing forth your discussion about being out in the forest or the jungle and the wildness of that and the teaching of that, because that's always been a real touchstone for me.

[59:10]

One of the images that I have in my mind that often comes up for me is standing in the doorway to the Buddha Hall at Zen Center passing out the short verses as people come in for the morning talk. And on my right hand side, all of which is the right hand side is coming from the temple. the inside of the building where the monks and priests live, and the shoes are all lined up in nice rows. And on my left side, where all the people are coming in from the outside, and the shoes are all in a big elter-skelter all over, and down the middle is the path leading into the Buddha Hall. And that's always been such a striking image for me, standing there seeing that, you know, all of that. And for me, there are so many teachings that come out of that. You know, the mind training and learning to develop that attention and being able to have that training to focus as you would with Rose, but also being in Shikintaza and allowing whatever it is arise and the teaching of mountains and rivers.

[60:34]

So I don't know that I have a comment, I mean, a question out of that, but just to thank you for bringing that up today. Thank you, Glenda. So next, Frank, and then Nancy, and just a time check. We have about 13 minutes left, so there's time for discussion. Hi, Paul. Paul, I want to direct a comment to you and a question. It's wonderful to hear you talk about that feral, primitive mind. And I feel like we've always met there in some way, in the workplace, you know, the workshop, on the land. I know what you're talking about. So you brought up the Six Patriarch, and Phu brought up the Six Patriarch, I think, in the first meeting.

[61:40]

And I've always wondered or been amazed, you know, whether he's mythological or not, that this foundational teacher, to the point of his transmission, his recognition by his teacher, never entered the Zendo, never practiced that Zen. So what does it say about Zen practice, Zen training? And what does it say about the quality of mind that an illiterate, untrained woodchopper could be profoundly awake on his own? Well, here's my own informed notion. I wasn't there when the sixth ancestor was around. However, despite that fact, I have notions. And it stirs up my skepticism, you know?

[62:48]

There's an old Irish saying that says, never let a few details get in the way of a good story. Or maybe the other side of it is, well, add some of your own details to make it a better story. You know, it's pretty well understood now that the Platform Sutra, was not written by the sixth ancestor. I think some modern scholarship would say, yeah, I think we've established that. I suspect that, you know, if we're going to make an archetype of the illiterate, if we're going to debunk the intelligentsia, let's go whole hog, you know? He was illiterate. He never opened a book in his life. He couldn't even read or write. And he never stepped foot in the Zendo. He just pounded rice in the kitchen.

[63:51]

I suspect, as with many things, there's an element of truth in it that he wasn't versed in the teachings in one sense. And then in another sense, in some way or another, he was versed in them. Here's a story you'll appreciate. A couple of weeks ago, I had a leak in a kitchen sink. And I'd had this plumber out And we really struck it off. You know? So much so that when he was leaving the first time, he unblocked a pipe. And at the end, and he managed to do it, he said, this is a really tricky thing to do.

[64:58]

Because the snake tends to go up... and instead of down where the blockage is, tends to go up the vent. And first time, it went down. And then I paid him, and he was leaving, and I said, may all your plumbing jobs turn out to be so easy. And he stopped dead, and he pointed at me, as if to say, that mind, that heart, And I was like, whoa, that was quite an exchange. And so then he came back and I had puzzled over what to do with this leak and failed. And he came out and in 10 minutes flat, he fixed it. And I said to him, I confessed to him, I feel stupid.

[66:01]

You know, why didn't I think of that? And like a plumbing Zen teacher, he expided on both the benefit of experience, the nature of mind, and the encouragement to me to keep practicing. You know? And none of that in the Zen Buddhist jargon we would use. And we were both struck by it. And then we walked to the front steps. And for those of you who don't know, I live across the street from the Zen center. And he pointed over to the Zen center and he said, what's that? And I said, that's the Zen center. Oh. And I said, do you want to go there?

[67:06]

And he said, yes. And I said, when COVID's open, over, and we're letting people back in, I'll call you. He said, great. Was he an illiterate woodcutter who'd never set foot in the Zen dome? I don't know. Does that prove your point? Honestly, Frank, I think if we think, if you're a practitioner, you look like this and you talk like this, we need to rethink that. Okay, thank you. Or I remember when you and I were in the shop.

[68:09]

And I'd been there a practice period longer than you. And I started to show you the preliminary details of plumbing. And pretty quickly I realized, you know, this guy gets this better than I do. And so... Well, what I remember, Paul, is you were the head of the shop. You took me over to the plumbing shop. It was so abandoned, there were cobwebs covering the entrance. And you said, well, here's the work. Here's the tools. Figure it out. And I made every possible mistake, just short of blowing up the kitchen once. And then... I found my career. So thank you very much. This may end up being our last exchange, Nancy.

[69:17]

So what I remember is the only time that I've known Frank Kilmer, it's when he was at Green Gulch undertaking a replacement of toilets project. And I've never seen Frank other than with a toilet in his hands. So thank you, Frank, for replacing all the toilets out at Green Gulch to low flow. Yeah, I appreciate your invitation, Paul, for us to be bold in this exploration of what the paradigm shift could possibly be. I too have really appreciated this time of the last year plus for us to be together this way. And the walls of the temple to come down and for practice to look like this. And I think that our exploration, which we've really taken up all of us together this last year of studying

[70:30]

What is patriarchy? How does it show up in our institution? What is it for us to study our racial karma, each of us, but as an organization as well? I think this is where some of the paradigm shifts are really gonna come. And the majority of practitioners, and I think that this is what's really also come up in our weeks of... Vipassana and Zen practice is, what is it to be lay practitioners in the world? And what is it to take our place as lay practitioners? Hearing these conversations of inquiry and response is not just for the priests to be interested in. It's for each of us to understand how we are teachers and how we as Buddhist practitioners take this practice into the world every day. you know, whether it's the practice of being a parent or a teacher or however, you know, and I've loved practicing Zen in the elements and that feralness.

[71:38]

And I love, love that part of practice is so alive and, you know, deep practice periods. And yet what is it for us to touch into that and to bring that into our work when it's mostly with computers or databases or in that realm as well, administrative realms as well. So I appreciate this conversation and all of us taking this up together. What I think I'm mostly hearing is that far and wide, we want warm hand to warm hand. We want the teachings of Suzuki Roshi and that that happens when we are together. So thank you very much for all that you do, Paul and Fu and all of you. So Fu, if your computer's working, I think it'd be great if you would add some closing words.

[72:43]

Oh, thank you, Paul. This is just like bouillabaisse. You know, I am so excited about all of the comments and all of you and the intimacy that was mentioned that we have by these crazy little TVs that talk back. I mean, I dreamt of that when I was a kid, when I watched the Mickey Mouse Club. Maybe someday they'll know I'm watching. Now you do. And I'm watching you back. And it's absolutely magic. So I love the idea. This is magic. It's mystery. And that we... cover it with the foam of our delusions. So the less we do that, the more we, you know, wash our faces and meet each other with these bright, shiny smiles that we've all been giving each other. I think we don't have a problem, you know, lay or priest or Christian or where's the problem? The problem is in here. That's what the Buddha said. And until we clear this up, we're just going to not, you know, we should probably be quiet. Anyway, wonderful, wonderful, wonderful.

[73:45]

And Paul, so nice to be practicing with you across. I was just thinking the very same thing. So nice to be practicing with you. Who knew we've been doing it all along. And you too, Nancy, and all the lay people, lay people much longer. I was a lay people, lay people for 12 years. So I know lay people. I love them. Anyway, can we have Kodo? Oh, Paul, did you want to make a final? No, that's great. That's great. Thank you. Okay. Okay. Do we just go away? Is that... Do you have closing instructions? Is there anything else you need to say, Kodo? Deep appreciation. Okay. Well, that's important. Can you unmute everybody so they can say goodbye? Yeah, everyone should be able to unmute now. There we go. Thank you, Sol. Bye. Thank you, Sol. Bye.

[74:46]

Thank you, Sol. Thank you, Sol. Thank you, Sol. Thank you, everybody. Bye. And feel invited to be opinionated on ideas about... Thank you, Melinda. ...should be as it heads into... Thanks, everybody. Bye. Bye. Bye, Nancy. Thank you. Bye. Thank you, Don. Hi, dear friend. It's been a while. Hi, Bob. Hi, Kate and Paul. Thank you so much. Thank you, Fu. Thank you, Paul. Hi, everybody. Thank you, Mary. Thank you, everyone. Thank you. Much love to everyone. Yes. Thank you so much. Total love. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Blessings. Bye, Paul and Kate. Miles and Susan. Hi, Miles. Hi.

[75:47]

Hi, Grace. Hi. Hi, Grace. Lynn and Julie. Hi, Nancy. Hi, Grace. My life is flashing before my face. Isn't it? The river faces. Many faces of your life. I think I'm dying. In little squares. Congratulations. Life in little squares. Congratulations. Bye-bye. You look beautiful, Nancy. You look beautiful, too. Hi, Don. Hi, Don. You look beautiful, too. Yeah. Goodbye.

[76:35]

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