So a few weeks ago we had a series of talks that we call, or dialogues that we called salons. And they were basically focusing on dialogue, on people talking to each other. Only we served tea. Now tonight, Abbot David would like to call this an open Dharma circle. But as far as I'm concerned, this is just a salon without the tea. because we want to have a focus, once again, on dialogue. So the format for tonight is... I'm going to just give a brief presentation, a brief introduction to the topic, and then we're going to sit for three minutes, and then we're going to get into small groups and speak to each other about the topic. And then we'll come back again into a large group to finish up the evening with a little bit more discussion.

[01:04]

Now, tonight's topic is the Zazen experience. And we'll do what in other places in our Zen practice we're discouraged from doing, and that is talk about what is it that actually happens? What are you actually doing when you're sitting Zazen? So Zazen means... Seated meditation. Za means seated and Zen means concentration or meditation. So Zazen is seated meditation. And it's our central practice here at San Francisco Zen Center. It's the one thing that you really have to do if you come here. If you don't come to Zazen in the morning and you're a resident here, we start to wonder what's happening and why it is that you're here with us. We focus, in Soto Zen, we focus on sitting as a group, sitting together. Although we're developing an online sangha, traditionally it's sitting in person together that has been our practice.

[02:14]

It has a different quality to it. And there's an energy that we're asked to become aware of that happens in between people when they're sitting together. In his instructions for sitting zazen, Dogen, our 13th century founder in Japan, Eihei Dogen, said, cease intellectual pursuits. Learn the backward step and turn the light inward to illuminate the self. So the practice of zazen starts with the body. And Dogen spells out in his instructions for Zazen quite specifically how it is that we should sit. And that's how it is that we still teach sitting now. So most of you, I think, have gone to an introductory Zazen intro and see how it is that we sit. But he calls Zazen... He calls our...

[03:21]

Experienced in Zazen, the art of Zazen. He says, the Zazen I speak of is not learning meditation. It is simply the Dharma gate of repose and bliss. The practice realization of totally culminated enlightenment. It is the manifestation of ultimate reality. Traps and snares can never reach it. Once its heart is grasped, you are like a dragon gaining the water, like a tiger taking to the mountains. For you must know that just there in Zazen, the right Dharma is manifesting itself. And from the first, dullness and distraction are struck aside. So intelligence and book knowledge is not a prerequisite for sitting zazen successfully. It's simply being devoted to sitting.

[04:26]

This is the character of our practice. Don't waste your life, Dogen says. Take the posture of immovable sitting to achieve thusness and be free of conditioned, conceptual existence. It's all of us. Missing person. Okay, well, that was perfect timing. What I'd like for us to do is to just sit for three minutes, and then we're going to split up into small groups and talk about what it is that we did, if we'd like it. and split up into groups of a minimum of four people.

[08:42]

And we have at Zen Center community agreements, two of which that are very important tonight is that you all have the right to pass. So if you don't want to speak, you say, I pass, and you get to pass. And the other one is if you're used to stepping forward and speaking more, try stepping back a little bit and see what that's like. And if you're someone who speaks very little, try stepping forward, if you're comfortable doing so, and see what that is like. So let's go ahead and split up into groups of four or five. And we're going to have 20 minutes for this part right here, and then we will come back into the big group and speak. The Zazen experience. What exactly is it that's happening while you're sitting Zazen? What are you doing?

[09:44]

... [...] Which isn't happening. So like what I'm not doing. I'm not working. I'm not fixing anything. I'm not moving. And then kind of how it is afterwards. You know, actually thinking about it. We're going to do a little group here. It's just noticing this really...

[11:47]

Yeah, I'm the kind of cute you do, yeah. I hope you can start passing by. Let's go. Oh, my God. We do have to come in. We have to come in. We have to come in. We have to come in. Yeah. Oh, that was great. What's the 18th anniversary of this initial? I know I'm going to raise that word to face. Yeah. I know. I'm yelling, I'm a resident priest here. I absolutely always get caught in that also.

[12:51]

It's a narrative. It's a narrative. It's a narrative. And so I have a little... Deborah. Deborah's forgotten as well. It's not let them do something, but it's... I'm not Brian. Is it Brian or Brian? I mean, sometimes, though, I do, I think, what am I doing?

[13:58]

Especially Sashim, it's like, yeah. I feel like I stepped back on the other desk. That's not true. I've done another ones, like four days or 12. So I think it's a question of the process of getting them so thoroughly. The early parts really are pretty. So I think if I do it by the screen, I have to start with them. That's more wretched. That's what's an issue for me. And I know other people, it's not. But it's sort of been recently in a way of, like, how can I practice? Like, yeah, you know, I'm more .

[15:01]

I'll look to anyone else. I'll look to you. Yeah, that's the... Like this... It's been a simple word. I saw what you do when I say. It's pretty simple. And I try to fall on my breath, but then the pain, that actual physical... That sort of simultaneous... Okay, so my question is how do you have something? Don't forget this. So they can't share or just sit the way they don't think you need to.

[16:02]

You can lie down. Stand here walking, sit here lying, say something. Not often is it pretty interesting. It's not consistent. There's no special awareness that drives me to bring for a conversation. So yeah, I sit on a question. It's a length of time I have to switch. And there's lots of... This is another sitting posture that's actually much more comfortable for a lot of people. It doesn't work for them a lot. Maybe sometime after a lot in the session, just try a bunch of options and chairs.

[17:07]

But I really started with notes. I don't know what you're saying. [...] I don't want to let your girls up, please. I have that experience. Okay, I have that experience. Okay, I have that experience. Those. Me, sir. Are you all right? You're right. [...] Coming back to the. There was moments that I didn't see.

[18:18]

The texture, the flavor more. I would say that that curiosity, the more, like, this is typical of a lot. And sometimes with me, I kind of try to cultivate this out too. I mean, I don't know. I think it is that I have yet another opportunity where you're going to react to the location of the world in the city. It's a real mistake too. I've never seen it before. I've never seen it before. And I think it's wrap this question.

[19:21]

That helps me feel. It helps me to feel like I really need it the right way, I guess, versus when I try to think carefully about my thoughts or my emotional experiences. It's very easy to understand when I really want to capture or identify those and treat them more in the audience. I think observing a lot like that is much more difficult. I think it's absurdly sensational. I think so, enough is all fine.

[20:41]

I'm actually, that's one of the things I will say that I'm a scholarship of. Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, it seems. It seems to be a leader for meeting the back of the board. Yeah. It beats our lutes. Not even in the back of the board, but we're all realizing that I've touched it again. Like, where is it? It's a more great interpretation than it's at. It's a dual. And just think of it. I'm really fortunate enough to meet the prompt earlier. And at best, they are not as a good kind of experience. For me, it's similar to what someone I think was. Yeah. I came to the Zen and did meditation more with, for, like, purpose, right? I built concentration. The first day of the Zen, we also took our eyes a bit, because that's an invitation.

[21:44]

I was just like, so fast in my eyes, we're just like doing weird things. It's cool. And then this is like really like, yeah, it's a point. And then I hear it. Take the best level. You look right. We're not happy with good meditations. And I have a baby mind. And I'm like, well, I'm here. Yeah. It's very hard. There was a turning of like whatever. Conceptualized, obviously doing nothing. And that's just a little over and over. And I think just for some dance. That was cool. You see, some virus is just like, you know, the light. Oh, that's what it is. And then it's not. I mean, it's living in life. I'm thinking, like, getting it. I just understand. It's not me in this way. And it's like, oh, this is... And it moves into... And it's like, you know, it can't live in fear. I can't live for it short.

[22:44]

I mean, you know, those are big words, but, you know, it's kind of like, coming from where I'm coming from, a paper-based book player, that, you know, realizing the freedom I have to do anything I want to do, I mean, it's constructive, you know, not the struggle, but that one. Yeah. And just letting me walk to, you know, results. Over time, you know, it does, I assume. Because the thing is, is that if I try to control something too much, it's different. For me, living with fear, not being controlled by it, that sort of means for me to be in the other steps. to contribute to happiness or attempt to contribute to happiness.

[23:54]

If I do need to plan, I think I'm going to have a way to go a little bit. It's so interesting to see what's happening. It's a very curious mind. It's a very curious mind. This is not the beauty of the practice, it's good to happen. It's a very curious mind. Just to wrap that to be a wrap. So somehow that, yeah, it turns out, like, well, the water's doing that stuff. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I think some water's isn't able to take my time and basically describe yourself like, can you, um, Yeah, I'm thinking how we have a habit.

[24:54]

We feel it could always do something in the garden. So I said it's just because there's a physical body. He says the body is something in the fire. It's always a deal. I mean, it's very difficult to have to be part of it. So they don't really know what that need. It's a way of going constantly. It's a way of being very calm for this. What is it? But there might be some truth to that too, but it's just focusing on that. It is so counter-corrected. It's not going to work. It's the very points of trying to cease to be about to throw up some feature calls.

[26:02]

As opposed to giving myself over to whatever's the way I do. But that's another channel today. Adam seems too strong, but it's pretty big. Definitive is the struggle, right? It's not what we're saying. We have an example in that right now, because it's sly, it's kind of, there's something we never talk about here. So, my question to you, it's like, what does that mean to be perfect? And then I kind of put that one down. You will do it. I mean, I always say, if you like something, perhaps it could be said that that little 60-second interval, does it mean it's the line?

[27:06]

It's the line. It's the line. ...to judge it and just let it be whatever it is. ...to judge it and just let it be whatever it is. It shows that focus at all. I gather the beast as It's an amazing thing to do.

[28:14]

It's an amazing thing to do. I've been only interacting. I was not a few. I haven't. And it was to always have beauty. Not to talk out loud. You have to say even less because I've been doing that. But again, I have really been very sure. And I felt like. If I do just. I did not. [...] None of those experiences will play the game. They were all around periods. None of those experiences will actually happen. Is that what's funny?

[29:16]

This kind of feels to me like this. Engaged in some kind of activity. Yeah, exactly. Because we have to hear what group it is. Yeah, I guess I took those experiences in some way to feel like some echo or residue of them. Kind of like informed and energized my practice. But I don't know. I'm sorry. Was it Rob? Ms. Cheerios? It was Cheerios, okay.

[30:18]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's the new... Sorry. Is there anything different? Just checking out how you stare into a mirror. Certainly. Yeah, certainly. Yeah. Well, I was just thinking about that. We did the beginning of the index. Yes. We're going to have those practices that we're going to do. This is how we do it. Yeah. So what's that? But I would not have said otherwise about how my body was arranged, how there was feeling in the sex in my world.

[31:33]

Good luck, buddy. Collective type vocabulary. And we're allowed to have functions also. And usually, if I remember correctly, there's a special type. Like, you sit me for a couple of periods. There's a doctor. And then there's what the main, like, session. and he has some questions. And we'll have a teacher's position.

[32:44]

I think that's a distinction. I think that's a distinction. Please, if you could let that board right there. Okay, welcome back.

[34:04]

So what kind of things were coming up? Does anyone ever get tired when they're sitting Zazen? Is that part of anyone's experience? How do you deal with that, Rocher? I got so tired I fell out of the chair. Onto the floor. A couple people came running over because they thought the old guy might have had a heart attack. Otherwise, I try not to get whiplash when it goes like that. Yes? Speaking of what we do when we get tired... Oh, yes. Let's toss the microphone around so we can hear us online. Sorry, this is a little bit of a glib.

[35:13]

But speaking of what we do when we get tired, when will we bring back the kusaku? I believe I'm pronouncing it correctly. So he's talking about the stick that has been used as a... Encouragement. I'm sorry? Encouragement. As encouragement, yes. And sometimes it was used to wake people up. It's a long stick. And I think it was the Tanto used it. Michael, is that right? The Tanto or the Roshi would use it? The Tanto or the Roshi or the Shuso. Yeah, or the Shuso. Yeah, would go around. Shuso is the first monk. And tap you, sometimes kind of hard, on the shoulder. And I've heard a lot of people speak with regrets that it's not used anymore, people who had experience with it.

[36:17]

But we talk about it every now and then, but this is a litigious culture that we live in. And there's a lot of people who have got a lot of very real trauma around physical contacts. And so, I can't see it being brought back anytime soon. You would actually put your hands in Gassho if you wanted, because when you're sitting Shashim... Let's get the microphone. I was just gonna say, actually, you can put your hands in Gassho in the old days, and then they would... And it actually was to relieve your back pain as well, so there was a positive side. What's happening inside when you're sitting zazen?

[37:19]

Actually, this is taking a little bit off on the Kyusaku or the sudden wake up as well as what's inside. And when I'm sleeping, I had a teacher once that said, as you go unconscious, it's because you're coming in the face of something you should actually be paying attention to. And so, of course, sitting along Sashin's another day, some good mornings, I'm sleepy, and I'm trying to wake myself up and face whatever it is. So, what was the second part that you just asked? what's actually happening inside. Right, so the question of if I'm going to sleep, I've let my mind take control, go off in a story, and usually that's when I drop off. But if I'm awake and don't have my mind on a story, those times it's almost like what Dogen says, awake and alert.

[38:32]

But when the demon comes forward and I start developing elaborations and stories about the demon, then I go to sleep. And I would almost welcome a stick at that point. I use my tongue and tickle the roof of my mouth. It does something amazing to keep me awake, I'll tell you. Really? Yeah. Thank you. That's enough said. I don't think we're taught that technique right there. Tickle the top of the mouth if you feel sleepy. What's happening when you're not feeling tired? What's happening inside? I don't know if it's inside or outside.

[39:47]

Thoughts are happening. Thoughts? You don't know if they're inside or outside? Inside or outside. Thoughts. Good. That's good. I like that. Thoughts are happening. A little bit on what our group touched on. We talked a little bit about courage, and I think it takes courage to sit, and it definitely takes courage to talk about what we do when we sit. say bravo to everyone that talked about what... It's a very private thing, isn't it? We talk about it a lot. It's a very private thing. I acknowledge that. It does. Thank you. It takes courage to talk about it. Thank you, Shoko. It's not easy. Abhi, did you have your hand up? sort of have new words that I would just came to me in our group feels like in Zazen it's like a cacophony of desires every moment you know sort of can you hear me okay yes a cacophony of desires mm-hmm

[41:28]

In a moment, it could be to feel my body. In another moment, it could be noticing my breath or listening or just relishing in living Sometimes it's avoiding pain. And other times it's a desire to go towards the pain. And yeah, just this movement of life. I don't know what it is

[42:33]

But I like the word desire. To just experience so much that can happen. Thoughts, sensations, feelings, awareness itself. There's like little seeds of desire in all of it. Kind of using more poetic language, but that's how it feels. So desire is connected to pretty much all of what it is that you mentioned. Is that right? Yeah. And I could also describe it as being aware of things or welcoming or all of those more conventional terms. But I kind of like the more poetic language of desire. Of just this flow of life, whatever that is. Yes, please.

[43:53]

Something that I was reminded of, just hearing that just now, is this is a regular experience that I have while sitting zazen, which is I'm doing a lot of eye-making. So if zazen is going well, so to speak, or... it seems like it's going well, I guess, to my mind. I might use that to think that, oh, I'm such a good meditator, or I'm someone that sits as in well, and I start to have all kinds of ideas about that. So part of the practice, I think, for me is inside, or I guess your question was, what's happening inside, something like that. It's like recognizing the way that even this practice can be leveraged by the ego for its own support or existence.

[44:58]

And so attending carefully to the physical sensations, or just any sensation, and not making distinctions about whether it's inside or outside, and just trying to note it with a kind of openness. something that I'm really working on, but speaks to my experience. So you're talking about judgment? Yes. Well, there's also encouragement, which is what you sounded like you were talking about when you said, oh, you can be a good meditator. You can be a good meditator. It might start getting to be problematic when you start saying, I'm a really, really good meditator. But being a good meditator and encouraging yourself, I think, is a wholesome discernment. So there is a place for that then in the practice? I think so.

[45:59]

That's my opinion. Encourage yourself. We have to learn about the ego because the ego is so much a part of what it is that's happening. As you mentioned and other people have sort of touched on, When the ego gets connected up with desire and they start encouraging each other, that's when it is that we start wandering off into places of grasping and holding on. Thank you. Yes, thank you. Yes. I'll admit that I often feel like I'm not such a good meditator.

[47:02]

I think the original practice I was shown was counting breaths. And I don't think I ever made it to ten. I'm still not sure I've ever made it to ten in counting my breath. You know, five, six, and the mind has already wandered. And so lately what I have been trying to do is to really focus on the gratitude of that moment of returning. Because it turns out I get several dozen, many dozens of those in each period of Zazen. And those moments of gratitude, oh, look, here's another opportunity for me to notice the present moment. that feeling is much more encouraging for my zazen, it seems, than the sort of beating myself up about not being able to count my breaths well enough. Yeah, so what's going on inside?

[48:06]

It seems to be an awful lot of judgment and mental activity, and then yet another opportunity to put it down. So what's that like for people to put it down, to let go? We're asked to let go. What's that like internally? Michael. Thank you, Tim. Yeah, I feel that because zazen, first and foremost, can't be accomplished, and that zazen sits zazen. It's the universe coming forward. It's my karma I did not make a project plan to have. It's my burden to bear nobly.

[49:07]

And so I think that for me, it's an acceptance practice. I try not to be in language when I'm in zazen, but that's the general context is when you ask about putting down, what's it like to put down? Even before that, what's it like to not hold on? What is it to do nothing? At the moment that I want to judge myself, at the moment that I want to quantify the fact that I haven't gotten to 10 and follow in my breath or I have fallen off the balance beam a hundred times this morning while trying to sit Shikantaza maybe. And that I think is the beauty of Zazen, one of the many beauties, but it's the workout of what is it to be a human in the world and to not hold on to all of the little things that we want to ruminate about.

[50:12]

but to just meet the next moment, purely. So I get to practice every morning for my day and see myself do it imperfectly, because I think that Dogen was really smart in the way that he wrote the Phucans of Zenki, because he essentially sets up an impossibility so that everyone gets an impossible fence to jump against, so that they can see their own internal machinations. But it's not about the thing that could ever be accomplished, it's about how I hold the fact that I am not going to do it perfectly. And that's the beauty of it. And so to me, it's just an acceptance practice. And what does it feel like? You know, to go back to your question just now. Well, I mean, I think that over time, it does get a little easier. I think that over time, I realized that I haven't let go as much as I thought that I had, and that I'm still holding on in some way. And that I am still lingering in that moment with some residue of bother. And I am not actually purely going back to the number one or really having let go.

[51:17]

So I feel that I let go now more than I used to with a much more positive attitude. And I am more and more continually perplexed by the amount of which I am not letting go that I'm becoming increasingly aware of. Thank you. Yeah, it's hard. Please. Could you use the microphone, Deborah, so that they can hear us online? A sense of spaciousness and inner connection with others. Perfect. Yes. That's what we're asked to do, is to open up, have a sense of spaciousness.

[52:17]

For me, when I can let go, that's what it is that I'm opening up to. And then, of course, I'm grasping onto something immediately right away. time for one more comment. Yes, please, Luke. I think what it means when you're letting go is letting go of a goal, you know, just wanting to do the thing for the thing itself, you know, for the joy of the thing itself rather than the money. It has to be more than the money. It has to be something inside you driving yourself and letting go of the wanting the need to beat somebody, you know, or to be better than somebody.

[53:26]

That's a hard place to be, but it's a place I'd like to go to. It's very similar to judgment, yes. Letting go of go, I like that. Thank you. Okay. We've come to the end of our hour. So next week, we're going to do the chanting experience. And I've actually, Eli has turned me on to some really fascinating science about chanting and what happens. So I'm going to give a slightly longer introduction. that and then we're going to do some chanting and then we're going to talk about what it's like to chant and what happens. That's a very important practice for us. So let's go ahead and stand and bow three times to the altar and once to each other and say good night.

[54:31]

Thank you all very much. You are all very brave.

[55:00]

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