This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfcc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. I would like to introduce our speaker today. This is Socha Law-Weisman, founder of the Berkwood Zen Center, has been with her for many, many years. and was an early abbot of the San Francisco Center. He was an early student at Suzuki Rishis. And so this afternoon, I have a subject, and our central abbot, Steve Stuckey, will be meeting a workshop on Suzuki Rishis teachings. So because President Abbott and I are going to give a teaching section.

[01:05]

I was asked to give to Dr. Martin. So teaching would be, of course, university teaching. And I understand that you have some university teaching. So that's been we talked about today. as I look around and see so many people that I've known for so many years. So I hope my talk is not worried for you. So who was the Jewish man? What are we doing here? I remember back in the early 70s, there were not so many students prepared to speak. because the liberation came in 1969. And in the 60s, Zen Center developed under his teaching.

[02:25]

There was a time in the mid-60s, it was great 60s, when many, many students started coming to . And she was a little bit, I wouldn't say alarmed, but was a little concerned because she was wondering why so much people think. And because then it left something that a lot of people didn't practice. Turn it up. Turn it down.

[03:27]

So Zen is becoming a household word, and many people were curious. But he was interested in the true dharma. And so he was concerned that because there were many people becoming interested, that there would be a zen boom. The word was like this kind of zen boom happening. And he was concerned about that, because he wanted a few good students who were really sincere. So in our practice with him, We've tried to maintain that kind of sincerity.

[04:32]

If you were to characterize Zipiroshi in a word or two, I would say sincerity. Sincerity and quiet determination. We say quiet determination. We have two kinds of determination if you're a runner. One is you run short distances as fast as you can. You have the short distance runner. The long distance runner takes time, and times are so, so that they can make it all the way to the end of a long, long run. Zen is kind of like the long distance runner. It's more like a quiet intermination rather than a flash of lightening. But the flash of lightening has been what attracts a lot of people to Zen.

[05:41]

The flash of lightening enlightenment. That's the big carrot for so many people. He kept his mind totally open. People say, oh, he came to America to establish then and all that. He just came. When he came to America, he said, when I came to San Francisco, I didn't want to know anything about San Francisco. I just wanted to experience San Francisco without any preconceptions. I wanted to experience it directly. And this was a characteristic of Suzuki Roshi, is to let go of preconceptions, to keep his mind open always, and to experience what he called, things as it is.

[06:46]

Things as, it sounds like, you know, pigeon English, or, you know, like, he's not getting his syntax right. that's not so. He understood English very well and in the length of time that he was here, his English improved and he was expressing himself much better than most people in English and using terms that astonished us. So, things as it is, it sounds like the many and the one. Things are many and it is one. So he's really giving us a teaching of the oneness of duality and the duality of oneness. He's teaching us the meaning of the Heart Sutra.

[07:50]

He's teaching us the meaning of Zen. He's teaching us the meaning of life. That the many and the one are... Not two. I don't want to go on about that. But things as it is. Things as multiple and yet as one. So it's really a wonderful statement because it's difficult to express the oneness of duality in words because words are inherently dualistic. So how do you express oneness of duality in words? That's why we have so many koans in Zen, because the koans are expressions of the oneness of duality and the duality of oneness. And it boggles our mind because we're always thinking in terms of duality. Our dualistic minds, our discriminating mind is always at work, dividing.

[08:57]

So Suzuki Roshi was a very subtle teacher. In Japan, you're not taught like we are here. And especially in Zen, you're taught by watching the teacher, not through explanations. So you have to be very observant and very sensitive to the teacher's mood, the teacher's way of doing things, and the unspoken message. It's very intuitive. Zen is intuitive. It's intuition. And so Suzuki Roshi was, in his way, which is the only way he really knew, was teaching us how to tap into our intuition. So he would not explain things very much.

[10:02]

He did concede to us a lot in explaining. But people would ask him a question, why do we do this? And why do we do that? He said, I don't know. Oh, I don't know. I just do it. Just do it. He said, when we wash the windows, he said, when you get up in the morning, You brush your teeth. But you don't brush your teeth in order to clean your teeth. You just brush your teeth. And when you brush your teeth, they happen to get clean. When you wash the windows, you just wash the window. But you don't wash the window in order to get it clean. The window is already clean. You just wash the window. And in the process, the window gets clean.

[11:07]

One of his most, as we all know, continuous teachings was no gaining mind. Not to add something to your thinking mind, not to add something. So our usual way when we do something is to want to get something. What's the result? Doing and then result, right? Doing equals result. But for practice, doing equals doing. Result, there may be a result, but Doing is just doing, not to get something. This is things as it is.

[12:16]

Just doing. It's so hard to do something and not expect a result. Oh, Zen is hard, you know, because you have to sit there for a long time with your legs crossed and your legs hurt and all this. But that's not why it's difficult. It's difficult because it's hard to keep our practice pure. By keeping our practice pure, you meant not expecting anything. I'm going to read you a little bit of his words. This title of this talk, we named The Zen of Going to the Restroom.

[13:19]

He says, how do you feel? He's giving his talk. He says, how do you feel right now? And he chuckles. And he says, I don't know how you feel, but I feel as if I've just come out of the restroom. As I am pretty old, I go to the restroom often. Even when I was young, I went to the restroom more often than others. And sometimes I had an advantage because of that. When I went to Eheiji, which is, of course, the head temple monastery, as that tangario, those of you who've been to Tassajara know what tangario is, but Tangaryo is the entrance exam to the temple, where in Japan, the monks come, young monks come, and they lay their head on the steps for as long as it takes for someone to come out and invite them in. It might take two or three days, or it may take a few hours, but nobody knows how long they have to be there.

[14:26]

Then they're invited in. And when they're invited in, they sit all day, all night, without any schedule. And that's the entrance exam for five or seven days. And in Zen Center, we have the same thing, except that we don't lay the head down. We just go to Tassauro and sit for five days. So without a schedule. That's the entrance exam. So he said, when I did that, you can go to the bathroom, of course. So he said, I needed to go to the bathroom a lot. So when I was doing tangario, I went to the bathroom a lot. And that gave me a lot of relief. And no pun intended. He says, so I could go to the restroom without a guilty conscience, because I had to. I was so happy to go to the restroom.

[15:30]

I think that going to the restroom is a good way to look at our practice. So instead of getting something, practice is how you let go. It's just the opposite. If you're getting something from practice, there must be something. It's okay to get something, but it's different than wanting something and getting it. So we don't have any idea about getting anything. This is pure practice. It's just practice for the sake of practice. To wash the windows for the sake of washing the windows. Strangely enough, when we practice that way, everything gets done. Happiness arises. Joy arises. Joy is something that is not for... Deep joy is not dependent on conditions.

[16:35]

Deep joy is not dependent on whether you get what you want or you're doing what you want or nice things happen or bad things happen. It's not dependent on that. Deep joy is something that's always there and it's our underlying current. It's the deep... feeling that you have regardless of circumstances and is not dependent on anything because it's what's always there. So when we tap into that, I don't know about tap in, but you know, Zazen practice is like a drill that goes down, [...] like a an oil well, you know, and then it hits something. It goes through all these layers of rock and difficulty. But then something is tapped, which is very deep.

[17:41]

But even though it's very deep, there's no end to the depth. It's endless. So Satoruzuki Roshi practices something endless. We used to talk about the Soto Zen noodle. Soto Zen noodle. In Japan, when you eat noodles, not all the time, but one common way of eating noodles is to suck them up. And after Sashin, in Japan, the monks have a noodle dinner. And they have to suck the noodles up without chewing. So, but Suzuki Roshi said that Soto Zen is like one long noodle. You just always... There's endless noodle. There's no end to it. So, don't worry about, you know, when you're going to get to some place.

[18:49]

The only place to be is here. Anywhere on the noodle. is here. So the long soto zen noodle is called here. Just here. Just be here. Our present here is conditioned by the past. And our present here is conditioned by what we think is the future. Future is just an idea. We think, I remember a friend of mine had Doka-san with Suzuki Roshi. And he was kind of a lazy guy. And so he was talking to Suzuki Roshi, and Suzuki Roshi gave him something to think about, to do.

[19:54]

And he said, I'll do that tomorrow. You know, he got inspired. He said, I'll do that tomorrow. And Suzuki Roshi said, you think there's a tomorrow? Tomorrow is just a thought. We think things are going to continue. They will, but not necessarily. As a matter of fact, there's a time when they won't. So, future, we plan for the future, and we hope for the future, and we take for granted there's a future. It's just an idea. The past is also an idea, although something happened. And our present is conditioned by the past. But there is a present that's not conditioned by anything. The present present is just now.

[20:55]

This is what zazen is. The present present is just now. There's a present that's conditioned on the past, and there's a present that's not conditioned on the past or the future. It's just now. So Siddiqui Roshi is very strict. He was very gentle and kind and understanding and laughing at people's problems. He had sympathy for everybody's problems, of course, and people respected him for that. But at the same time, he could see how we're creating our own problems all the time. And a lot of the problems we create are not big deals, but we take them seriously. How seriously we take things. that bother us.

[21:59]

He would laugh at that. I remember I would go to him with a question and we'd talk and I'd give him my telling what the problem was and then he would give me something over and above that that was a big question for me. And then he would laugh and say, oh, I'm sorry. You came to me with a problem, and I just gave you a bigger problem. And laugh. And we both laugh. And everything would just disappear. What's the problem? So he could do that. He could, you know... to dwell on something that we create.

[23:05]

And in Zazen, the loop goes around and around, and oh, if I had only, oh, and what am I, oh. But he would say, when you're sitting in Zazen, whatever you're thinking about, whatever you're worried about, has no relationship to the present moment. So why do that? It's not going to help you. Most of the stuff we think about is unnecessary at the moment. It's good to think about, but when you get off the cushion, you will think about it again. If it's worthwhile thinking about, it'll come, and you can deal with it. I was thinking about something today, but I can't remember what it was. in relation to that. We need something to occupy our emotions.

[24:07]

Our emotions want something to cling to, and our thinking mind wants something to cling to. And because we're so used to clinging and creating problems that when we sit down, In zazen, the momentum is still moving, is still going on. So at that time, we're sitting in the present of emotion thought, but there's also the present of no emotion thought. The present present. We're still not present yet. So that's what he taught us. Just sit until we meet the present.

[25:14]

It's really hard. The Diamond Sutra, if you've read the Diamond Sutra, past mind, future mind and present mind cannot be grasped. There's a wonderful koan, you know, about Da Shan, China, the Tang Dynasty, famous master, was a scholar of the Diamond Sutra. I don't know if you've read the Diamond Sutra, but it's a very radical teaching about emptiness. And so Dajan was going to, he was carrying all these commentaries on his back and traveling around. He had a big backpack full of commentaries. And he was traveling around and he was looking for a Zen master so he could smash him.

[26:24]

And so as he came upon this little stand, where a woman was selling little cakes. He thought, gee, I'd really like one of those. So he asked her how much they were. And she said, what are you carrying on your back? And he said, well, these are all the commentaries of the Diamond Sutra. I've read each one 300 times, and I'm really an expert. And she said, wow. She said, well, if you can answer my question, I'll give you one of these. Kind sir. Master. And so he said, okay. She said, in the diamond sutra, which you carry on your back, it says, past mind, future mind, and present mind cannot be grasped. With what mind will you eat these mind refreshers? That's what they're called. They're called mind refreshers.

[27:24]

And so he was stumped really stumped. And so, he said, well, do you know where there's a Zen master that I didn't talk to? He missed her, you know. She said, well, up on the hill, up the mountain, is Lung Tan. Lung Tan was a well-known master later on. But, She said, why don't you go visit him? Okay. So he went up the mountain to visit Lung Tan. Lung Tan means something like dragon pond. And so he said, you're Lung Tan? And this little man, little old guy, you know, looked like a farmer. And he says, yes, I'm Lung Tan. He said, you don't look like a dragon pool to me. And he said, well, what you see is what you get.

[28:30]

even though you don't see it. So, they went into Lung Tan's place, and they talked all day and all night, and Dushan really began to understand what Zen was, and they had really good meeting, and a lot of compatibility. So, it became nighttime, and it was very dark outside. And, Lungtan lit a lantern, a paper lantern of some kind. He said, take this and go outside and you'll find your little hut out there to sleep in. So Lungtan handed the lantern to Doshan. And when Doshan reached for it, Lungtan went and blew it out. And everything was in utter darkness.

[29:31]

And Dashan woke up. That's a real waking up experience. That's the meaning of the Diamond Citra. So one of Suzuki Roshi's characteristics was to demythologize Zen. I mean, not on purpose, but there are a lot of things that he did not emphasize that are usually emphasized in Zen. And when you read the Zen writings, the Zen writings you know, are little vignettes of very powerful experiences.

[30:39]

And they're always talking about enlightenment, reaching enlightenment. So people think that, they're a kind of come on, you know. People think that when you study Zen, you study Zen to get enlightenment. I mean, right? When you read the books, oh, and so-and-so had an Enlightenment experience, right? And so everybody's looking for Enlightenment. But with Stato Zen, Enlightenment is the beginning of practice, not the end. So you can dismiss, you don't have to worry about Enlightenment. Oh, gee, what is Enlightenment then? you should be careful what you ask for. You should be careful what you want. Because when you get enlightenment, you may not like it.

[31:44]

But hey, you're supposed to like it, aren't you? Why do you look for it if you may not like it? Enlightenment brings us to practice. You just don't know what it is, that's all. You think that there's, I'm not saying what you think, but the thought usually people think, enlightenment is the end of practice. But actually, it's the beginning, the middle, and the end. It's no special place. It's no special thing. Dogen says, enlightenment and practice are one thing. Practice brings forth enlightenment and enlightenment encourages practice. So they're inseparable. The sixth ancestor says, samadhi and prajna, wisdom, are not two things.

[32:50]

Samadhi is like the lamp, and prajna is like the light. Without the lamp, there's no light. Without the light, there's no lamp. So, We don't practice to get enlightenment. This is Suzuki Roshi's saying all the time. We don't practice. Enlightenment brings us to practice. So instead of emphasizing enlightenment, he emphasized practice. He said, enlightenment is not so difficult. That's not such a big deal. What is really difficult, it's not difficult to get enlightened. What's really difficult is to practice continuously. So continuous practice, there are two terms, gyōji and dōkan, Japanese terms.

[33:59]

Gyōji means continuous practice. When we practice When we enter into practice, sincerely, then practice is not something that we pick up and put down. It's the continuous activity of our life. Dokkan means the circle of the way. The way ring, it's called. It's the activity that you do every day that we call practice. You get up in the morning, you do zazen, depending on where you are, of course, in the monastery, you just do the monastery routine. That's Dokkan. But in the city, the way you practice is so various, depending on your availability and your interest and whatever. But if your practice is continuous, then you can create a practice, a way ring, or a habit of practice.

[35:07]

Dokkan is more like your habit of practice, or you get up in the morning, and you brush your teeth, and whatever you do, and you eat your breakfast, you go to work, or you sit zazen, you go to work, and so forth. That's your way ring. We all have a way ring, unless we're just kind of wandering around. So it's the discipline of practice. Way ring is like the discipline of practice. And Suzuki Roshi gave us this practice, which is very different than other Buddhist practices, because it's like everyday practice. Every day we do the same thing. Every day we sit tazen. So it's devotion to the practice, basically. So there's two terms. Kyoji, Doka. continuous practice and the circle of practice, of everyday practice.

[36:13]

And this is what creates the vortex of practice and the vortex of strength and power. When you have this... The thing I noticed about Suzuki Roshi when I first came, I was... Well, I had been an artist for many years and so forth. And I grew up kind of in the bohemian era, and then there was the hippie era, and the flower child era, and the beat era. So, you know, I knew all of those. And I didn't want to have any discipline at all. I didn't want to be disciplined. But I needed discipline. I really needed discipline. The only way I could, and even my religious life was undisciplined.

[37:16]

And so when I encountered the practice, that was the discipline I needed. And I really needed that. And then I began to understand how instead of spreading yourself wide in order to find you freedom. Your freedom, you find your freedom within the narrow confines of zazen. The most restricted posture gives you the biggest freedom. And then you have freedom in your life. You understand what freedom is. So you can enter any activity without being restricted. So when I watched Suzuki Roshi, when I came to Sokoji Temple, our first temple, I watched Suzuki Roshi and he would come out of his door and he would bow to the altar

[38:34]

do his bows, go and sit. And then at the end, he would come back. We'd do Chant the Heart Sutra in Japanese three times, and then he'd go out the door, and then we would go out the door, and he would bow to each one of us as we lived. And he would do this twice a day, every day. And I thought, how can he do this twice a day, every day? He's not doing a lot of other things. This is all he's doing. He's probably reading something, and... relating to his wife and whatever he does during the day, but it's all one piece. His life was all one piece, and it was done in a very narrow arena. And I thought, it's remarkable. And so when I started practicing and following him, I realized that there's something wonderful about that. more wonderful than the freedom I thought that I had or was looking for.

[39:35]

Because there was real freedom. It's not freedom to do what you want. It's freedom from creating a life of suffering. That's what freedom is in the Dharma. Freedom from being caught by your ego. That's freedom. because we don't realize always that we're caught by our ego and creating suffering for ourselves and others. What did Buddha say? He said, the only thing I teach is freedom from suffering. That's all I teach. But there's all this huge amount of sutras and commentaries and so forth about what Buddha didn't say, but actually it's all about freedom from suffering.

[40:38]

So, which doesn't mean that you don't suffer. You do suffer. Suffering is, you know, this world, hell is not some place you go after you die, and heaven is not some place you go after you die. It's all right here. These are just ideas. It's all ideas. The only thing we're concerned about really is ourselves. So to let go of self-interest, exorbitant self-interest, self-centeredness, Suzuki Roshi would say, you just don't know how selfish you are. That was one of his main teachings. You don't know how selfish you are. If you knew how selfish you were, you'd be embarrassed. And I thought, well, you mean self-centeredness, don't you?

[41:39]

But actually, you meant selfish, not giving, not really being generous. You know, there's this old... Katagiri used to talk about this. It's a little... vignette about how to tame the world. In hell, the difference between heaven and hell, in hell, there's a big table, big dinner table, and everybody's sitting around this big table, and it's full of food, full of, you know, a feast, and everybody has chopsticks. This is an Asian table. But the chopsticks are so long that when they pick up food, they can't get it into their mouths.

[42:41]

This is hell. No matter how much they try, they can't quite get it in their mouths. So there's a lot of suffering. In heaven, it's the same table, the same people, the same feast, the same chopsticks. But when they reach and pick up the food, they put it in the mouths of the people across the table. That would solve all our problems. So the big problem is selfishness. It's very simple. There are other problems too. But basically, they come from that problem. The root problem is selfishness, and we just don't know. We're all self-concerned, and rightfully so, but when we let go of self-centeredness, that's when our life starts.

[43:47]

That's when we actually become happy in a true sense. So Suzuki Roshi was really a wonderful teacher. A lot of people, a lot of, you know, during that time, in the 60s, many Zen teachers from Japan came to America. But they were all, mostly, I don't want to criticize them, but they used to look down on Suzuki Roshi as, you know, he's not really enlightened. Because he didn't advertise enlightenment. He advertised daily life. How is your life going moment to moment? Living our life one moment at a time. How do you live your life one moment at a time?

[44:52]

That's practice. But we usually think in terms of chunks of time. And then there are all these moments that make up these chunks of time. But we're not so concerned with these moments because it only concerned mostly with the result of our activity. And so we have these chunks of time, the morning, the afternoon. But each one of those is made of little bits of time called moments. And the moments are what we need to pay attention to. That's why when we wash the window, we just wash the window. When we walk, We just walk. So Suzuki Roshi was teaching us the true value of life beyond our desires. Which is really hard, because our life is full of desires.

[45:59]

We're all that way. But when we focus our activity on reality, on a different reality, it's logical that we live moment by moment. And there's deep joy and freedom. So he always say, nothing fancy, not to create something fancy. And he would criticize a lot of the other teachers, not in a critical way, but they're trying to get students. Suzuki Roshi never tried to get students. When students would come, that was okay. I'm here if you want to come and sit with me.

[47:02]

I'm open to that. If you want to talk to me, I'm open to that. But he never tried to keep anybody as a student or recruit students. He just was himself and did what he did, and people came. That's all. Really good model for a teacher. So when he talked to us, he said, I don't have anything special to give you. I'm just doing what I do. And the only thing I can give you is my sense spirit, spirit of practice.

[48:05]

That's all I can give you. If you want to do that with me, I'm more than happy to practice with you. When he first came, people would come and talk to him. And he wasn't sure exactly how to talk to people or who everybody was or whatever. But he would have a little piece of candy that he would offer to them. And then later he said, I was offering them candy. He said, oh, that's a terrible thing for me to do to offer them candy. But he saw everybody for who they were. And that's why everyone was attracted to him, because not doing anything special, but he could see right into their nature. He saw past the surface into everyone's true nature.

[49:10]

And that's why people were attracted to him, because they'd never been seen before. They'd never been truly seen before. That's what he looked... Of course, he saw the surface, but he addressed them. He addressed their Buddha nature, and everybody felt recognized and seen. So they followed him. Very magnetic. So I was very fortunate to be able to practice with him

[50:20]

And I try my best to continue what he taught us, if I can. The other thing about Suzuki Roshi, I'll stop in a few minutes. The other thing about Suzuki Roshi is that he was not interested in the most talented people. He was interested in everybody equally. There was no one person who was better than another. And he would say, those people who practice easily, or who can sit zazen easily, don't seem to have any problem, are not necessarily the best students. Those people have the most difficulty and are really having a hard time, but persist in the practice. Just keep going regardless of what the obstacles are.

[51:23]

Those are the good students. Those are the people who get the most out of practice. So you should not ever compare yourself with anybody else. Everyone is in a different place, practicing according to their ability and their determination, and to not compare. Oh, he's sitting in full lotus, you know, and I'm having a hard time keeping my knees down, you know, and it hurts. Don't compare. That person is practicing their practice. You're practicing your practice, which is totally complete. If I could only do as well as they, you know, that's always there, comparison. But practice, not about comparing yourself. Each one is practicing according to their own abilities. together and with generosity of spirit because we're all supporting each other.

[52:27]

The newer students are taken care of by the older students. And the newer students, given all the difficulty, are inspiring the older students. because of their naive beginner's mind. They don't know how to do it, but they're trying really hard. And that is so inspiring. So newer students should not give up just because it's difficult. But we don't know what the difficulties are always. So Vicky Roshi had a big heart and great understanding. We used to talk about the four horses. The first horse gallops when he sees the shadow of the whip.

[53:30]

That's a good student. The second horse gallops when he feels it on his hide. The third horse feels it when it starts digging in and starts moving. The fourth horse can hardly get it up, even though he's trashed. So he says, who do you think Buddha will be most compassionate with? The fourth horse. We're all fourth horses, fortunately. OK. May we fully enjoy the Dharma.

[54:48]

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