This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. I heard that a Chinese monk named Judy was once living... in a hut on Mount Tiantai. Mount Tiantai is the mountain where Tiantai Buddhism was born. Tiantai means celestial terrace. Celestial terrace. He was living on that mountain, and there's lots of other monks living there too, probably. And one night, a nun came to visit him, wearing her rain hat,

[01:30]

And she came into his hut at night, and there they were together. And she walked around him three times. And then she said to him, if you can speak, I'll take my rain hat off. And she said, if you can speak, I'll take my rain hat off. If you can speak, I'll take my rain hat off. And he couldn't speak. The monk Judy could not speak. So she left. And he called out to her and said,

[02:39]

It's getting late. Why don't you stay the night? And she said, if you can speak, I'll stay the night. And he couldn't speak. And she left. By the way, her name was Shirji, which means reality. a nun named Reality came to visit him in the night. But he couldn't speak, so she left. After she left, he supposedly said, I'm in the body of a man, but I lack a man's spirit.

[03:45]

And he resolved to leave his hut and go traveling to study, to go on pilgrimage to study, maybe meet some teachers who could help him with be able to meet reality. After making this resolution to leave, pretty much the next day he was going to leave, at that time, he was visited by... a spirit of the mountain, which said to him, you don't have to leave. In less than two weeks, a great bodhisattva is going to come to visit you.

[05:00]

And, as the story goes, in ten days... teacher named Tian Lung, which means celestial dragon, came to visit him. And when he came, Judy welcomed him and could talk to him and told him about this encounter with reality and Judy welcomed him and bowed to him reverently and asked for his help and told him the story. And then the celestial dragon raised a finger. We don't know which one, but he raised a finger. And then he pointed to Judy. And Judy understood the finger.

[06:11]

Now, if I were to point at any of you, my wife would say, don't point. I can point with my whole hand, that's okay. Or I can point with my hand under my sleeve. Anyway, he pointed and Judy received. Judy... experienced face-to-face transmission of the treasury of true dharma eyes Tian Lung celestial dragon gave him this one finger could say originally it was Tian Lung's one finger but then it became Judy's one finger and when earlier today I was thinking of telling you that story and I thought oh Judy used this one finger for 30 years whenever anybody asked about Buddhism he just raised one finger that was he just did the same teaching over and over

[07:54]

And I thought, oh, that sounds familiar. This story of reality and duty I thought about many times and I thought, well, what's going on now with nuns going to visit a monk in the night? Is that like fine? In India, that would be very unusual for a nun to visit a monk even alone. But anyway, this is a nun and a monk and she goes to visit him.

[08:57]

He offers him a chance to meet and he can't respond. And he asks you to stay in the hut that night. Now we could say, well, he meant stay in Siddhartha tonight with me. But anyway, I often think, well, it's kind of, yeah, it's very intimate to be in a hut together in the night. But anyway, she didn't accept the invitation. But later, with the help of Celestial Dragon, he was able to meet reality. One may wonder if a nun says, you know, if you speak, I'll take my hat.

[10:13]

Why couldn't he speak? Yeah, what happened to him when she was... How was he when she was walking around him three times? Was that, like, really intense? Was he just barely able to, like... be present for that? And then she asked him to speak, and he just can't be there in that meeting? Apparently not. Apparently he's in his body, but he didn't have the spirit of his body. He couldn't be there with the spirit of his body, the body which can talk. He couldn't be present and speak. Now, if I imagine going to visit Suzuki Roshi late at night, or rather, he comes to visit me late at night, that's better.

[12:08]

He comes to my room late at night, knocks on the door, and comes in and walks around me three times and says, speak. If you can speak, I'll take off my hat. I can imagine I might not be able to speak. Like, what does he mean, speak? Speak what? I might not be able to. I might be concerned about saying the right thing. I might be concerned about not saying the wrong thing. Anyway, there it is. When my daughter Taya was young, I had a little book of stories by a poet named E.E.

[13:20]

Cummings. And I read her those stories. And the one I liked best was called The Elephant and the Butterfly. At Green Gulch, once a month we have... approximately once a month, we have little short talks for children who come on Sunday and we give the first part to talk about 10 minutes to the children and then the children leave. And one of the stories I tell the children is the story of the elephant and the butterfly. And I tell that story over and over. And one child who had been to some of my lectures was going to come to another one, and he said, please don't tell that story again. Carolyn's probably heard this story many times, right?

[14:39]

It's a lovely story. So once upon a time there was an elephant who did nothing all day. And he lived in a... a house at the top of of a winding road and then the road ended at the top of them of a hill where his house was and one day when he was sitting in his house doing nothing at all Down at the bottom of the hill, down at the bottom of the winding road, there was a butterfly living there. And the butterfly thought, I wonder who lives up on that hill at the end of that winding road.

[16:00]

Maybe I'll go see. So then the butterfly went up the winding road... the butterfly knocked on the door of the house. And maybe said, Hello, I'm the butterfly who lives down at the bottom of the hill. And the elephant inside heard the knock, heard the butterfly, but didn't say anything. Couldn't speak because the elephant was so, you could say, giddy, so excited.

[17:10]

Somebody came to visit him. And so then the butterfly knocked again a little harder and said, hello, anybody there? And again, the elephant couldn't speak. And then the butterfly, you know, really whacked the door pretty hard with the butterfly wing. Hello, is anybody there? And finally the elephant said, Yes, I'm here. It's me. I'm the elephant who does nothing all day. And the butterfly says, oh, can I come in? And the elephant said, yeah. The butterfly opened the door and went in. And the butterfly said, well, why didn't you respond? I said, well, I was just so excited. I do nothing all day, and so it's really a big deal for me, for you to come to visit.

[18:16]

And so then it starts raining real hard, and they're indoors now, and they're happy to be indoors in the downpour. And they sit there through the downpour together, and then the rain stops, And the butterfly says, well, it's really been nice to meet you. And the elephant says, yeah, likewise. And the butterfly says, I think I'll go now. And by the way, do you love me a little? And the elephant said, no. I love you a lot. And the butterfly says, well, you're welcome to come down the hill and visit me sometime.

[19:24]

And the elephant said, I really, if it's okay with you, I really would like to come and visit you. So after this Dharma transmission, Judy continued to offer this one thing to anybody who asked him about Zen. And when he died, he said to his community, I received this one finger Zen from Tian Lung. And I still haven't exhausted it. And then he died.

[20:35]

And again, one might think, how could you do that? You know, spend 30 years being a Zen teacher and people ask you about Buddhism and you just go. He might have sometimes gone like this, too, or like this. But anyway, just one finger. And again, I thought, well, that's what I'm doing. I'm just saying this one thing over and over. It's really what I'm just saying. I'm just saying Sazen. I'm just saying Prajnaparamita. I'm just saying face-to-face transmission. I'm just saying drop-off body and mind. I'm just saying the same thing over and over. And it's not worn out yet. And if people stop asking me, maybe I'll start using two things.

[21:55]

But anyway, so far I'm just doing one thing over and over. And again, I shouldn't tell you nice things that people say about me, but I don't think I'm worthy of the nice things they say. But it might be nice just to tell you anyway. There was this guy, one of the early students at Zen Center. Yeah. I don't remember which practice period it was, but it was either in January of 69 or in January of 70. I was driving into Tassajara in a Volkswagen van. And I was coming down this side of the mountain in a van with at least three other people.

[23:00]

And the person sitting next to me, his name was Jerry Fuller. And I was also in the car with Peter Schneider and Jane Schneider. We're going down the hill. And the car starts to speed up, kind of surprisingly. And I step on the brake. And it keeps speeding up. And I step on the brake harder. And I'm just about ready to turn the van into the side of the cliff to stop it. And I look down, and Jerry's foot... is on the accelerator. And I say, Jerry, take your foot off the accelerator. And he says, oh, sorry.

[24:01]

And that pretty much took care of the problem. And we made it to Tassajara and did a practice period. 47 or 48 years ago. And when I was Shisou at Tassajara, after I finished being Shisou, I was invited to go to Green Gulch and be the Tonto there. And I heard that Jerry Fuller said, Uh-oh, Mr. Zazen's coming. I consider that a great compliment. Not that I'm worthy of it, but it's a nice name, Mr. Zazen. And then there is also Ms.

[25:10]

Zazen and Ms. Zazen, too. The room in which I'd been given to do doksan at Gringosch, that room was Jerry Fuller's room before I used it for doksan. He lived there. And he set the room up with a wood frame. He was a carpenter and a tea master. a tea teacher. He set the room up with a wood border and tatami mats. And then he moved out of that room into the so-called Airstream at Green Gulch.

[26:17]

And he lived there and he died there. A very dear person. He died young, 62. One day I was in Sacramento. We had some exciting times here at Tassaro, right? In the old days, things were really wild here. But we're still having some excitement. Anyway, I was in Sacramento and I got a telephone call and it was Jerry Fuller.

[27:24]

And he was... on the verge of dying. And he called me and said, I love you, Reb. I think he was calling his friends and telling them that he loved them in those last hours. So the non-reality helped this monk, got him ready to be initiated into the one thing. The face-to-face transmission, which is our life.

[28:32]

This is one way that the one thing manifests. She walked around him three times, helping him get ready to give up trying to control his life and let body and mind drop off. But he couldn't allow it. He couldn't allow himself to pervade the whole universe and let the whole universe pervade him.

[30:02]

Again and again, he had a chance to let body and mind drop off. But he was too tense. He was holding on to body and mind too tightly. He wouldn't allow it to drop off. No, no, no, no. Still too concerned. What would happen if he let it drop off? if he let himself speak to her. But he confessed and repented and asked for another visit and got another visit, this time from Celestial Dragon, and this time he was ready.

[31:20]

to meet the celestial dragon. Now, that teacher's name is celestial dragon, but that teacher, that person, is not the celestial dragon. The celestial dragon is invisible. Face-to-face transmission is invisible. These are stories about it, but the actual thing the stories are about is deportment beyond hearing and seeing. Are you ready to meet an invisible, inaudible, ungraspable? Do you want to meet such a dragon? we offering ourselves and calling for the invisible true dragon to come and meet us are we being called to meet the true dragon

[32:53]

Hello, anybody there? I'm the true dragon. Can I come in? Are we calling for the true dragon to come up the whiny road to meet us? We've got a whiny road. I don't know how long the Zen master Judy lived. I don't know how much longer I'm going to live.

[34:02]

But I could go on like this for the rest of my life, telling stories about Zazen. But I can also stop for the rest of my life and not tell any more stories. So maybe I will stop now. And you can take over. Somebody's coming up the road. Love your stories.

[35:23]

Story of a monk. Story of reality. These people, there's an element in many of these stories they don't hear you talk about so much. It was visited by the spirit of the mountain and he believed what that spirit told him. We make offerings many times. He seemed to believe it. Do you believe in those kind of spirits? To ask me if I believe in those kinds of spirits, to me, is similar to asking me if I believe in Jose. The nature of those spirits is the same as my nature. Yeah. Do I believe in your nature? Yes. Do I believe in their nature? Yes. Is there any difference? No, your nature is what?

[36:28]

Your nature is pivotal activity, and the nature of mountain spirits is pivotal activity. The nature of you and mountain spirits and rocks, I believe, are the same. And so, I listen to all these things. with equal respect. That's my vow. And all of them can teach me their true nature, which is my true nature, which is our true nature. I love you, Rebbe. Might have been a mountain spirit. Is Avalokiteshvara similar to these? Avalokiteshvara has the same nature as you and rocks. Avalokiteshvar is pivoting between call and response, between speaking and listening, always speaking and listening, listening and speaking.

[37:37]

Avalokiteshvar has the same nature as you and me. And is there anything that doesn't have this nature? There's nothing that has a different nature than this. I think you can leave it there. Is it okay to have it here? Or is it better if it's back farther? Why don't you pull it back farther? To encourage vocalizations. I'd like to say how I'm thinking about face-to-face transmission and see if you have any refinement.

[39:53]

And I would like to tell you a story that I don't think you've heard about me, or at least not from me. It's not all that complimentary. Then I couldn't have heard it. I've only heard complimentary stories about you. I'm translating face-to-face transmission as no face, meaning no face, that this earth and water and heat and wind is merging with Earth, water, heat, and wind, and incalculable molecules. You're on refinement now? Yeah. Not merging. I kind of thought that.

[40:57]

Meeting. Meeting. In meeting, there's merging and not merging. Interacting and not interacting in the meeting. Yes, please continue. And I'll refine as you go along. That's great. That's kind of the universe's inconceivable molecules of stardust. interacting and not interacting. And I thought of Zazen as mind, face-to-face, as mind and environment. And the summit of Mr. Peak not being the human world and not not being the human world.

[42:00]

And that's how I'm understanding the teaching that you're speaking about as face-to-face transmission. Mm-hmm. Is that the story? About you? The story about me is not complimentary. Okay, this is your understanding? That's my understanding. Now you have it, so please take care of it. Doing what I can. So, this is about giving and receiving gifts. And how I'm holding that right now is in the context of deep faith in cause and effect. I was the tens over here for us at Sheen. And I was a little concerned about one of the members on the team. But I thought, we can do this. And we did. We were a very harmonious team.

[43:01]

We had a, I did well, they did well. It was very joyful. And that, did our cooks Jundo, and then we went to the kitchen to clean up after bag lunch, and the kitchen was working. And when we finished, we could be off like everybody else. But there were two voices that were filling the kitchen, you know, sound kind of resounds, and they weren't being quiet. And I asked, I was getting impatient, and I asked, please encourage quiet. And he said, yes, but it didn't stop. And finally, I said, I thought fairly even. Could we please be quiet and finish so we can go?

[44:02]

But it sucked the air out of the room. And then we finished up. And then the person that was having the most concerning life went out to the dining room and came back in. And when he came back in, this kind of big person started blasting me in a negative tone. I didn't see them talking as a gift, and they didn't see my being quiet as a gift, asking quiet. And when he was shouting at me, I didn't see it as a gift. And I said back, I'm just gonna soft pedal this, but I won't. I said, please, so-and-so, shut up. And all the air went out of the kitchen again. And I was not able to turn it. And this person and I were speaking now, but it really didn't work.

[45:11]

I think it was not seen as kind. So yesterday we were talking about giving and receiving gifts and realizing or not realizing. But the only thing I can feel now is that if I have faith in cause and effect, then something came forward for me to say that. And it's shouting at me. But I don't know if it really, you know, like at least 15 years ago. I don't know how to understand that as gift. You know, you had that exchange yesterday, seen as unkind. Where is the gift in that? And you remember what I said? You hear it again, face to face. By giving, by practicing giving, you will understand.

[46:14]

that it was a gift, or the whole process was a gift to you, you'll understand that by practicing giving. Giving what? Giving in relationship to whatever is being given to your face. Right now, for example, practice giving with my face. And use your face to practice giving right now. In the process of giving, you will wake up to giving. Giving is going on already. And you're giving me a gift right now. And you're giving all of us a gift right now of saying, I don't see giving in such and such a situation. I couldn't then. I don't now. giving as I've been processing it for these years.

[47:16]

Yeah, like we say, the gift that never stops giving. This gift is continually saying to you, you know, you don't understand this yet, so keep practicing giving until you understand this example. There's this thing, you know, I guess I'm making a proposal that your present practice can transform your past. Which is similar, you can be saved from your past. Well, I understand that it was the causes and conditions of totally what I was able to be in that moment, and I'm not Maybe I'm not that now. But I don't think that person and I... Maybe it's not two-sided.

[48:24]

Maybe it's just... Well, it probably is two-sided, at least. Probably is two-sided. I think that's where we're in history day, kind of. Do any other person have to understand your giving or do I just make my own piece of stardust that that's what happened? As we were saying yesterday, some people are proposing, I'm one of them, that giving is reality. And sometimes we cannot understand that. Sometimes I can't understand that. So, if I want to understand that giving is reality, then I need to practice giving. And, for example, practice giving in situations where I don't see giving. That's one of the places to be generous.

[49:26]

Yeah, both of those places. I didn't see giving. Yeah. So then, now, today, both of us, all of us, can practice generosity towards these visions that look like, or even have the title, not giving on them. So we practice generosity towards everything. We practice generosity. We can. As bodhisattvas, we practice generosity with all beings. And one being is not generous. Stingy. That's a being. Which we can practice generosity towards. Now, if we practice generosity... then there's going to be big surprises. And in that generous surprise, the past gets transformed.

[50:28]

We get saved from our past. We have past karma. This is a practice not to deny it. but to be generous towards our stories about it. And in that generosity, the past is transformed. And we are liberated from it. But generosity means giving up trying to control the story. Give up trying to keep it the same as it has been. Give up trying to change it into a better story. It's okay to say, I don't know, you know, you can say, I did the best I could.

[51:36]

That's kind of generous. That's a little gift you can give. But You still don't see the best I could and what that person did. You don't yet see it as gift. And you will be able to see it as gift if you practice giving with your life now. And when that story comes up, be generous to that story. Say thank you very much. I have no complaints whatsoever with this uncomplimentary story. another word for generous here? Yeah. But generous is emphasizing a certain aspect of compassion which we're focusing on. One dimension of compassion is generosity. Another is ethical discipline and so on. But we're talking about this aspect of compassion which it's the first aspect of compassion practice.

[52:36]

It's hard to practice ethical discipline if we don't allow what's been given to us, then we can't even work on it. So you've got these stories and these feelings, and this person is still in the world, all this stuff to be gracious and welcoming and joyful. Not so much about the story, but joyful that you have the opportunity to be generous towards the story. That you have the opportunity to care for the story. And by caring for this story, this story can be liberated. And you and all of us together can be liberated without changing the story at all. And see, oh, this is a gift. And then you can be, you know, joyfully grateful to that old Sonja, that's not old Sonja, that past Sonja, and that past whoever that person was, and also to the present person.

[53:52]

If you see him, you can express your gratitude. And you might give him gifts of apologies and stuff like that, but it's joyfully given. It's part of a new world. a liberated world, a world of reality, which means a world of giving. And the world of giving can be chock full of people who don't think giving's going on. Hello, you're not being generous with me. And you can see, oh, what a gift. like that bodhisattva never disparaging. I guess if I'm not attached, so to say, of being seen as kind, I can allow myself to have other aspects come in as well.

[55:02]

Correct. At the same time. And not be afraid of what I don't want to be. And be able to receive. Yes. That's right. So, not being attached to being seen as helpful, did you say? Yeah, or kind. Yeah, so that would be an example of being seen as kind, that would be something that you would give away. And maybe unkind would come, seemingly unkind. You also give that away. Not push it away, but let it be and give it away. If you can give away how people see you, how you're seen, that makes it you're not afraid of being seen as unhelpful. So, you know, there's five fears. One of them is how people see you. Well, there are all kinds, a lot about that. Fear of speaking in front of a group is fear of how you're seen.

[56:03]

You know, fear of losing your good reputation, that's fear of how you're seen. And those... fears are overcome by practicing generosity. Fear of losing your life. If you practice generosity, you will no longer be afraid of losing your life. You won't see the world that way. You see your life as not something you lose, but something you give. Nobody's going to take it from me because I'm going to give it before they can take it. Nobody's going to take my good reputation away because I'm giving it away. Thank you for slandering me because, you know, I didn't think of that. You helped me. I could give away my good reputation, which I didn't... I wasn't giving away my good reputation, and here and now you've just taken it and changed it, and now I'm free of it. Yeah.

[57:08]

So... If I could just acknowledge that you have a little bit of concern, maybe a little fear, that... One or a million people will not think you're kind. That's a perfectly reasonable thing to be generous with. Say welcome fear that people think I'm not helpful. And then watch to see as you're doing your many, many, many, many, many helpful things. Okay? As you're doing all those helpful things, watch to see are you doing those? to prevent people from thinking you're not helpful? Or are you doing them just as gifts and you're just going to keep doing that even if it seems to be ruining your repetition? That's Sonia. She's such a pain in the neck. She's always trying to help me. She's so unhelpful.

[58:10]

She's like all over me all the time trying to help me. I wish she'd like leave me alone. Yeah, but even if you're helping people and it's not a control trip, even if you're helping people and you're not trying to prevent them thinking you're unhelpful, they still might help you and give you the gift of saying, you know, you're so controlling. Oh, thank you. That's a good one. You're welcome. Thank you for letting a whole bunch of people come to our solitary meeting.

[59:20]

That's the truth. Why does reality want us to speak? Well, I'm not a big, what do you call it, I'm not much used when it comes to why questions. So, maybe you should ask somebody else.

[60:30]

Why is this a new story? Why is this a new story? Did the non-reality ask Judy to speak? Did you say why did reality ask Judy to speak? Did you say that? I just thought that. Yeah. So, I don't know. I really don't know. Reframe your question. Thank you. I can't... I have this impulse to learn how to express myself. It feels like that's... That's actually the full expression of... It's just like contact with emptiness isn't quite enough, but it has to come fully back into... material, concrete reality, and somehow, as human beings, that way for us is in speech.

[61:43]

Although that might not be purely verbal, I have this sense, I'm not sure from where, but I don't know why and I have a lot of resistance. I don't really want to speak sometimes. But now you've overcome your resistance and you're speaking. It's not the speech that's deep inside of me, though. It's like so speech about the speech. It's not this. Are you saying there's a speech inside you that you're resisting letting out? Yes. And are you saying you would like to let this speech out? Yes. Does the resistance want to let this speech out? Yes, but it's scary. Well, is there a wish to help the resistance with its fear?

[62:51]

Yes. Hello, resistance. How are you feeling now? Are you scared? I want you to know, resistance, that you're welcome here. Do you feel welcome resistance? And you can just keep resisting, and we'll let you stay in the zendo as long as you want. How are you feeling, resistance? Now I want to speak. Is the resistance willing to let the speech happening? More. More. Does the resistance want to hear more from me?

[63:51]

Yeah. Well, resistance, I want you to know that we're just going to continue to practice generosity towards you until you're willing to let certain things be spoken which want to be spoken. And we're not rushing you. We're just going to be really kind to you until you feel unafraid to let certain things be said. Do you hear me, resistance? Yes. And again, it's okay. You don't have to disappear. We're going to just keep being kind to you and let you be and listen to you. Listen to you is equally as important as letting this speech come out. It's kind of the same thing. The deep thing that wants to be said is pretty much the same as being kind to the resistance to saying it.

[64:54]

And you can be kind before it can speak, there can be it. in the form of kindness to the resistance to letting it out. And there is that kindness right now. There is that acceptance that it's not yet ready to let body and mind drop off. couldn't I say something about the story sometimes you offer commentaries on the story couldn't I say something about what story about the story of reality I feel like there's something that's what you said I've been talking about the story and you're asking me to say why she came but I don't know and nobody else knows either why she came

[66:04]

And anybody who says why she came, it's perfectly fine what they're saying about why she came, but there's no limit to the stories about why she came, and none of the stories about why she came are any more valid than any of the other stories about why she came. And I don't know which one to choose, so I don't know why she came. I do, yeah. But that doesn't mean I know why I chose the story. And the stories aren't saying, this story is why things happen that way. I wonder why the universe seems to want the gift of our speech. Why is it our speech that is the response? you're allowed to wonder why about everything, if you want to.

[67:14]

There's one of the other stories, there's four stories that E.E. Kami's told, and there's another one story which is about this guy who says why about everything. So maybe you can check that story out. Don't answer my questions. I did answer. I said I don't know. I really don't know. I'm amazed. I'm amazed. I can tell you I'm amazed that reality came to visit him. I'm amazed. I'm amazed that she came. I'm amazed that her name was reality. I'm amazed at what happened between them. I'm amazed that Mountain Spirit came to help him. I'm amazed that Celestial Dragon came to visit him.

[68:16]

I'm amazed that he taught one-finger Zen for 30 years. I'm amazed by all this, but I don't know why any of this happens. And also, I don't know why you're asking me these why questions. But I can make up stories. Oh, you can tell me right there. See, you can tell me why you're asking. Yeah, I... Yeah, you know the answer to why questions. I don't. I think it's kind of a joy to ask or a joy to answer that even if you have this in mind that there's no final solution, there's no one answer that answers all of the why. That's true. Such beautiful stories. It can be a joy. And maybe... In the joyful asking why questions, when you wind up talking to me, it can be a joy to hear me say I don't know. And if my granddaughter asks me why, no matter what I say, there'll be more why questions.

[69:23]

So I could say I don't know, and that doesn't stop her from joyfully asking more why questions. I can also tell her You know, I can tell her why. And there's just going to be more why questions, which is fine. Maybe she enjoys it. I enjoy it too. And I enjoy saying I don't know to you. But you don't seem to be enjoying... You seem to be missing out on the joy of I don't know. So, looks like we've come upon something fruitful here. If I just keep saying I don't know, That may be really the path for you. Yeah. Today we find out the best practice for you is just to keep asking this guy questions and having him saying, I don't know, and see if you want to continue. I'm pretty stubborn. I'm good.

[70:32]

Did you just say that you're pretty stubborn? I can be. You can be and sometimes you are? Okay. Well, thanks for telling us. We didn't know that you were, but now we know. So we'll take that into, you know, compassionate care. I guess I just feel like sometimes you do. You do. You do give... stories that aren't, you never say this is the only answer. I do give stories, it's true. It's true, I do. And then watch what happens when you ask why questions. You can start watching now. Why does we have a response when I ask why? Yeah. I do not know. I'm sincere. Why did Reb come from Green Gulch to Tassara?

[71:40]

I do not know. You say, well, he came because he said he would. And he thought it would be too much trouble if he didn't. Why did Reb stay at Tassara after he came? Well, you know, again, I could say because he thought it would be too much trouble if he left. But anyway, that's not really why. That's just, I don't know. I don't know why I'm here. And I often say, I have a big thing. I do not know why I'm so fortunate to have found Zen practice and found a teacher. I don't know how I could be so fortunate. I don't know how I could be. I don't know why. I'm more like in the... I'm in the... amazed, astounded thing rather than knowing the answer to why questions. But there are some people who you can ask why questions to.

[72:42]

I'm just not one of them. Use me for the other questions. Use me for the how and also use me for like telling somebody that you're stubborn. I'm a good person to tell you're stubborn too. And I can listen to you. You wouldn't say that the cypress tree in the courtyard? If someone asks, why did rub come from Green Gulch? You should say I wouldn't say that. Would you? Go ahead, try it. Why did rub come from Green Gulch? The cypress tree in the courtyard. That's all I'm looking for. You got it. Oh, by the way, it helps if just shortly before you ask me a why question, you say, here's the answer to my why question. Just pass me a little note and then come.

[73:45]

And say why, and then I'll read the answer. But it helps if you just give me the answer. Like the blue hedge. But you didn't get my answer. You got the answer that you gave me. But if you want an answer, it would probably be good to give me an answer, because the only one I've got is... That's a good one, too. Okay, so I'll do that one from now on. For you, anyway. I thought part of it is we need to sign our own. I'm not afraid. Actually, I'm a little bit afraid. There's a lot of big guys in this practice period.

[74:58]

If they all ganged up on me, maybe they'd take my finger. The blue is if you take my finger. Yes. I wonder if you can help me about what you said in the morning about sun-faced Buddha, moon-faced Buddha. You don't understand? I don't think I understand the whole thing.

[76:08]

Shortly after I first heard this story, I also heard that this story is really one of the most precious stories in the whole tradition. And I kind of thought, what's so precious about it? And over the years, gradually starting to understand how great it is. And so you're now on your path with this this teaching from the horse master as he's about to die. And you're telling me that you feel that you could have a deeper understanding and you wish for a deeper understanding of this story. I hear that. And for now, I would say, please take... Excuse me, but that's a little bit like your deep wish to find your next teacher.

[77:12]

This story maybe has become like a flag for your next teacher. And I probably will talk more about this, but for now I'd like to say that this is an auspicious story because it seems to be calling, giving you something to look at to receive the teaching through this story. That's my first response to you about this. say being upright and I also part of my interpretation is to please take care of this practice and don't take it for granted don't take anything for granted yeah yeah he's about to die

[78:17]

And he's saying, please take care of this practice. Don't take anything for granted. Sun-faced Buddha, moon-faced Buddha. Don't take things for granted partly means don't think that this is not an opportunity to understand sun-faced Buddha, moon-faced Buddha. So that was two. And then the first one you did, that makes three. Spirit of being generous to fear of being seen.

[80:00]

Here I am. I'm... I have goosebumps at the generosity at this generosity. A little confession and repentance. I confess that when we engage in an activity like this, to meet the true dragon but usually sometime afterward I start conjuring up ideas about what I should do where I should go and

[81:23]

to some sort of self, some idea of self, something that will seems like take myself away continually from my deepest much and when you first started talking about after the session is over it's not it's easy to get distracted from meeting the true dragon this thing this thing flashed up in my mind which is this door back there opens and there's the garden there and I

[83:37]

thought of you and I going out the door into the sun to go look at the tulips that I planted. I did that thing. I planted those tulips. And I was kind of like, go check the tulips out. How are they doing? But I thought, when we go and look at the tulips, we bring the true dragon with us. The true dragon with us and see if we're trying to like get control of those tulips so when the session is over the will to power comes back you know to accomplish something get those tulips to grow or you know get that monastery to run whatever here comes to this is not the true dragon this is the will to power.

[84:42]

And sesshin, we let go of it and open. So when we go on and start taking care of things, we need to bring the true dragon with us. This power thing is not going to stop. But we can learn to bring drop-drop-mati and lump mind along and we can continue to be open to being questioned about whether we're on a power trip in a power wagon with a power drill. When we're working with this stuff, we can be questioned and then the true dragon's with us. But it's good to keep in mind that this get something accomplished, this self thing is alive and we're gonna be compassionate to it.

[85:51]

And we're gonna, part of that compassionate to it is we're gonna bring in a good friend, the true dragon. Because if it's unattended, it will, it has the potential to make us miss what's most important. But if it's attended, we're not going to miss attending it is what's important. Not getting rid of it. It seems important to have good friends to remind us. Yeah. Important is an understatement. Like, you know, the story, there's a scripture called The Half Scripture. where Ananda says to the Buddha, good friendship, good friendship is half the noble path.

[86:54]

And Buddha says, don't say that, Ananda. It's not half. It's the whole thing. Yeah, good friends. We need good friends. We have good friends and we need to practice with good friends to realize that we have good friends. And that's a real challenge. The story yesterday and the story today, I have an interpretation now for those stories and a harshly formed question.

[88:52]

But when I heard them both, I thought they came from a time, a long time ago, in a place very different from here, in a culture very different from here. And both of the stories feature monks and women, and not an art teacher. And so when I heard them, I thought, what it made me think about was the other, in that this was 800 or whatever more years ago, these women represented to these monks who were telling the story an idea of the other, and that in both cases, the teaching was this other that we think is not other, but...

[90:00]

We're one in the same. And so today, when you were talking about, you were telling the story, and you talked about the true dragon, the first that the true dragon was coming, the first thing that popped into my head was, oh, that's Donald Trump. And I thought about your speaking during the January intensive about if you were to meet with Trump, you hoped that you could, in my words, not see him as other. So I probably won't be meeting with Donald Trump anytime soon, but I have, when I think of going back home and getting together with family, can relate pretty easily to someone close to me as other.

[91:05]

So, my idea of the one finger teaching is a reminder that it's not other. But, I guess this is my question. How to It's one thing to have a reminder and maybe an intellectual or just cerebral understanding of that, how to, how do I get to the point where it's so embodied that, I mean, is it possible to? Just be open and not see without having to first check yourself. Somehow it's just there.

[92:09]

If I were to meet Donald Trump, I do not want to... If I meet Donald Trump, what I want to do is have a conversation. I don't want to, like, avoid thinking of him as other. He is other. He's not me. He's other. but he's an other that is me. And I need to have a conversation with you. You are other than me. But I am nothing in addition to the other. My point is to have a conversation, to have face-to-face transmission with other. So if I meet an other who I don't want to have face-to-face transmission with, then my aspiration is to learn how to get over that resistance to having an intimate, genuine conversation with that person who I feel is other.

[94:05]

and who I feel is not included in me, and who I feel I'm not included in. I want to include and be included in this person who is other. And I want to have a conversation to make that possible. Including, and the conversation will involve, Me being aware of not allowing him or her to be included in me. Or me to be included in them. And so this is very... Yeah. In terms of what we're just talking about, I want to have good friendship. beings self and other are not separate they're an intimate pivotal relationship with each other and to realize that we need to exercise that pivotal relationship through conversation through face-to-face transmission that's what I want

[95:32]

And if you're asking how do we... Is it possible to get to a place where you're like with the conversation all the time? I would say that's what we aspire to. So here I am. I'm with the conversation somewhat and I aspire to be continuously with it. That's my aspiration. And... Also, I accept that I don't know what that would be like. And so I'm aspiring to something that I haven't yet reached and which I don't know for sure what it would be. I think that's in accord with my nature. That's in accord with your nature that you... That I would aspire to things...

[96:40]

And that I would aspire to things that I understand. I don't fully understand. I don't fully know. But I still go ahead and aspire to them. I don't just aspire to things where I think I know what they are. That's more immature. So little boys maybe aspire to be like their dad. But they don't yet know that they don't know what their dad is. But they do aspire to be like their dad or to be a doctor or something. But adults can not only aspire to, for example, be somebody who is continuously in face-to-face transmission with beings, but they can accept that they don't know for sure what it is. And that's part of our nature and it's part of what's necessary to accomplish this. this aspiration it's immature to think we know what we know beforehand what it's going to before we get there and when we get there it would just be the same we would still aspire to it but not know not know what it is because what it is is that it's a pivotal activity of all buddhas and that's too you know that's too magnificent for anybody to know what it is

[98:09]

I've mentioned this before, but I just want to say now that in the Avatamsaka Sutra, the last part of it is about this young bodhisattva who visits 53 teachers. And the first teacher he visits is Manjushri. And he has a meeting, face-to-face meeting with Manjushri. And out of that meeting, he aspires to perfect enlightenment. And then after he aspires... Oh, and he aspires to the bodhisattva path to perfect enlightenment. And after he makes the aspiration, the thought occurs to him, well, if I wanted to do the bodhisattva path, maybe I should find out what it is, because I don't know what it is. So he's aspiring to perfect enlightenment and the bodhisattva path, but he doesn't know what it is, so he thinks, well, maybe I should get some instruction on how to do it. And Manjushu says, yeah, that's right. so you should go see so-and-so. And then he goes to see so-and-so.

[99:24]

And he says to so-and-so, I hear you're a teacher of the bodhisattva path, and I want to practice it, but I don't know what it is. Would you please teach me? And then the bodhisattva says, well, I have... And then the teacher tells them all these realizations that they have and all these samadhis that they have. And then after they finish telling them, they say, but... how could I teach you the bodhisattva path? Because the bodhisattva path is, and they tell you what the bodhisattva path is, and when you hear what the bodhisattva path is, you realize nobody could teach that. So after the person teaches it, they say, but how could I teach it? So you should go see somebody else. And he does this over and over, that we're teaching something that we don't know what it is. And we aspire to something, but we don't know what it is. And we have all these realizations, which are great, But still, nobody knows what the bodhisattva path is. It's too much. So you should go see somebody else.

[100:27]

And they'll say the same thing. just thinking how even though he couldn't speak, he couldn't speak.

[101:37]

But if he had, then he wouldn't have had. Yeah. So, yeah, if he'd been able to speak, he wouldn't have asked for help. He said, I can handle this. I can handle this. But he knew he needed more help. Because he couldn't see her as showing him. Right before it came up, I remembered I lost my voice a while back. One time when I was Tokyo, not here. Completely gone. Just couldn't even... And I ran out. It was the one time. So embarrassing. You ran out of the Buddha? Yeah. But I just ran out.

[102:37]

Wow. Tears. I didn't hear about that. That's a good story. Well, now you guys can share it. That's a good story. And I was just thinking, oh, I always thought that, I probably put it behind me, but oh, I thought that was about me losing my voice. But have been good for the person who had to step in for me that could have been something it's like you don't know you always wish you could speak but sometimes there's a reason that's beyond much greater and I want to say hi and thank you for having me and thank you for coming and I just wanted to mention that somebody told me that Well, I'll tell you who told me, Anja told me that she got a little bit giddy when you four women came. Because she was in practice period with you four in 2003 here.

[103:44]

All of you were here together. So that was, it's a great homecoming for her. Thank you for coming. For more information, visit SSCC.org and click Giving.

[104:14]

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