I vow to taste the truth of the Tathagata's words. Good evening. I want to mainly take this evening to introduce you to this collection of papers which was given at the Monastic Interreligious Dialogue at Gethsemane Monastery just a few weeks ago. I recommend them to anyone who's interested in this dialogue among Buddhists of many different traditions and with Catholics of both the Benedictine and Cistercian orders, men and women, from various communities across the United States.

[01:10]

And in Belgium and France as well. And actually a Catholic community from Hong Kong and Taiwan also. There's no way that I can cover the richness of this week-long dialogue which went from 3.15 in the morning when we had the holy office of vigils, although truth to tell not many of us went to vigils and I only went twice. The first time I did something wrong setting the clock and I ended up in the church at 2.15 in the darkened church and sat there and waited for about half an hour and thought something must be wrong. Went back to my room and saw that I had set the clock an hour early and went back at 3.15. Because the monks in their daily practice begin vigils at 3.15 but then they have Kamplein at 7.30 and go right to bed.

[02:23]

But our dialogue went on until 8.30 each night. So most of us got up instead for the 5.45 Zazen and went instead to join the monks in some of the later offices in the day that didn't interfere with the rather intense schedule of the dialogue. A typical day would begin, if you didn't go to the 3.15 vigils, would begin with 5.45 meditation and then a 6.15 ritual from one of the traditions. Each day there was a liturgy from a different tradition and then breakfast and then 8 o'clock morning session with two papers.

[03:25]

Each paper would last for about 20 minutes with about an hour and a half discussion dialogue following. Brother David Steindlrast was the moderator for the dialogues and he kept bringing us back from discussion of theory or philosophy back to experience. What's your experience of this kind of meditation? What's your experience of this kind of study? What's your experience of the significance of the community in your life as a monk? What's your experience of the significance of a teacher in your life as a monk? So continually bringing us back from getting into any kind of doctrinal discussions or theoretical comparisons back to our own personal experience of our life of practice.

[04:26]

And it was very rich and it became very intimate and established a very strong feeling of mutual respect and affection among the participants. There were 25 Buddhist, actually one of the, I think the greatest benefits of this discussion was that whereas all of the Christians were Catholics and all, even though they came from two different orders of Benedictines and Cistercians, they all practiced under the Benedictine rule. But the Buddhists were Theravadans from Sri Lanka, Burma, Cambodia, Thailand, China.

[05:34]

Theravadans from America from the Insight Meditation Society, Mahayana Buddhists from China and Chinese tradition here in the United States, from Tibet and Tibetan tradition here in the United States, Japan and Japanese and Buddhist tradition here in the United States. So there were a wide range of Buddhists there with wide ranging, you know, sort of from a quite, almost I would say a fundamentalist Theravadan monk from Thailand who's been in the United States for 17 years who kind of was the first in the dialogue after almost every speech putting forward the Buddhist point of view, which others of us who were Buddhists didn't always agree with and would have to find, you know, ways of not contradicting him,

[06:45]

but widening the Buddhist perspective to include the Mahayana perspective which was kind of interesting. Anyhow, the intra-Buddhist dialogue that happened there was very, very significant. For example, there was a Chinese woman teacher, Yi Fa, who teaches at a temple, a Zen temple in Los Angeles, who just finished getting her PhD at Yale, who was at a certain point just made a big pitch for what are you, facing this group of bhikshus here, including the Dalai Lama, what are you doing about the women's bhikshuni ordination in your country?

[07:46]

You know, really challenging them because right now the only bhikshuni ordinations for women are in the Chinese tradition. And many, many women in Taiwan, women bhikshunis outnumber bhikshus by three to one. And she was quite feisty, and in fact, when the Dalai Lama said, we really do have to have a conference to establish the validity of the existing bhikshuni ordination lineage so that we can resume bhikshuni ordinations in our country, she said, well, you could set a time and place. And he said to his secretary, please, you know, he took it up just like this, you know. But I mean, she was, and this was really, I mean, the Catholic women religious were just in delight about this.

[08:49]

But, you know, this interaction within the, among the Buddhist participants was a very important part of what was happening there for us, as well as the dialogue between Buddhists and Christians. So you won't see any of that in here, so I thought I would mention that to you. What I want to do is actually just give you a little overview of this binder of papers, which are quite worth reading for any of you that have any interest, and a list of the participants and where they're from. And invite you, this will be in the reading room. In fact, I may take it with me for these four days at Tassajara, so people there can look at it and see if they want me to. It's a pretty big job to make a copy of it, so I want to see if they want me to make a copy of it for the library there.

[09:53]

This will all come out in book form eventually, including the discussion. Everything was taped, and it will all be transcribed, and eventually there will be a book. And what is not in here are the teachings of the Dalai Lama, which were not presented ahead of time and copied and handed out to everyone. He just gave his teachings on the spot, and Jeffrey Hopkins translated for him. So his remarks are not in here, I'm very sorry to say, but they will be in the publication that comes out. The first paper in here sort of gives an overview of how this all came about, so I won't go into it too much, except to say that following Vatican II, the Ecumenical Council of Vatican II, there was set up something which has now come to be called the Monastic Interreligious Dialogue,

[10:57]

which has been organizing these kinds of dialogues little by little until it's built up to this one, and exchanges of Catholic monks and nuns visiting mostly so far Tibetan monasteries in Tibet and northern India and Nepal, and Tibetan monks and nuns visiting American Catholic monasteries. And these exchanges have been happening with greater and greater frequency over the last number of years. And each time that the Catholics have gone to India, they have met with the Dalai Lama as well as having dialogues at the monasteries that they visited. As you may or may not know, when Thomas Merton went to Bangkok to one of the conferences,

[12:00]

the first of the conferences which grew out of this initiative of the Vatican in Bangkok, while he was in Asia he visited the Dalai Lama, and they became very good friends, they really appreciated each other. And then Merton went to Bangkok where he, as you know, died. And in 1993 at the 100th anniversary of the Parliament of World Religions in Chicago, the Dalai Lama asked the Monastic Interreligious Dialogue to organize this particular dialogue at Gethsemane in honor of Thomas Merton. And one of the things that happened while we were there was a commemorative service for Thomas Merton. And the whole thing was sort of dedicated to Thomas Merton. So that sort of history of how it came to be is all here in the first paper.

[13:09]

And then there were two papers. The only two papers that were given by people who would be identified as scholars rather than monks were by two professors, each of whom are also practitioners but are not monks. Geoffrey Hopkins, who's a professor of Tibetan Buddhist studies at the University of Virginia. And Donald Mitchell, who's a professor at Fordham University. And they gave what I would say Geoffrey Hopkins spoke on dependent arising and nirvana, and Donald Mitchell spoke on God and creation in Catholicism. They were both, as they were stated, giving the philosophical underpinnings of the spiritual practice of the two traditions.

[14:19]

And they're both excellent papers, and I really recommend them. And what I think you'll find if you read any of these papers is the similarities of experience and intention with different language to describe it. For the most part, what happened in the dialogue was that we kept seeing the similarities, the meeting places of these two traditions. And one of the things that you need to bear in mind that Judith Simmer-Brown from Naropa Institute mentioned, she said it helped her a great deal, and as soon as she said it, it helped me too,

[15:22]

to realize in the language that we use that when Buddhists use the word contemplation, it means a much more cerebral process and is very different than what we mean by meditation. And when Catholics use the word meditation, it's more like what we mean by contemplation. And when they use the word contemplation, it is nonverbal and more like what we mean by meditation. And I think that will help you in talking with Catholics about practice and in understanding when you read about practice. So then the next section after setting the philosophical background was a Theravadan monk speaking on meditation practice in Theravada Buddhism.

[16:27]

And then you heard Norman's talk on meditation practice in Zen Buddhism. Those of you who were here for Norman's lecture a few weeks ago, he tried out this lecture on us. And he began, he actually didn't read this whole paper because he had handed it out, and he focused largely on the backward step, taking the backward step that turns your light inward to illumine the self, rather than reading the whole paper and mostly spoke extemporaneously, instead of reading the paper, since everyone had the paper. But one thing which he did read from the paper, which I want to remind you of again, because it's important for us to remember,

[17:35]

says, my favorite Zen dialogue about Zazen, which I quote whenever I have an excuse to, is the saying of Master Zhao Zhou. When a monk asked him, what is Zazen? He replied, it is non-Zazen. The student said, how can Zazen be non-Zazen? And Zhao Zhou says, it's alive. So for us to remember about our Zazen, that however we describe it, it's alive. It's nothing that we can grasp onto. And that would be true of Catholic contemplation as well. So then the next session was a Catholic monk speaking of contemplative life in Christianity.

[18:44]

So what is their meditation practice like? But again, he uses here now contemplation instead of meditation. So what is contemplative life like? He tells a great story about the Desert Fathers, who were sort of the first monks in Christianity. When an elder monk was asked by a younger monk what he could do to keep from being shocked or discouraged when he saw others leaving the monastic life and returning to the world. Rather than give an abstract theoretical reply, the elder took an example from the world of nature to illustrate his point. He said, the young monk should consider the case of a dog who sees a wild hare and sets off in pursuit until he catches it.

[19:51]

Other dogs, seeing the first one running but not seeing the hare, will run after the lead dog for a while, but then give up and go on back to chewing their bone or lying in the shade. And the elder said, only the one who has seen the hare follows it till he catches it, not letting himself be turned from his course by those who go back, not caring about the ravines, rocks and undergrowth. So it is with him who seeks Christ as master. Ever mindful of the cross, he cares for none of the obstacles that stand in his way till he reaches his goal. Until he reaches the crucified, he says. And I think, you know, I've mentioned this before when I've lectured here. I think we're all here because we've seen the hare. Those of us who continue to practice, practice because we have had a glimpse of non-separation.

[20:58]

We've had a taste of non-self. We've had a taste of that moment when self and other are not two. And we know that that's the way our life needs to go. That's the way we want to live. And so it doesn't matter what somebody else does. And it doesn't matter, you know, what somebody else thinks you ought to do or what you think you ought to do. You just do it because your life has been turned in that direction by seeing directly something that has made a difference to you. These are the kinds of things, I think, as you read these papers, you will begin to see the similarities in the life and motivation.

[22:02]

And one of the wonderful things was one day, the Gethsemane monks, we were eating in the retreat house. And one day the Gethsemane monks invited those of us who were monastics, both men and women, to come into the monastic enclosure and join them in the refectory for their monastic meal. And it was so much like eating oryuki, you wouldn't believe it. It was so neat. It was so familiar. It was just delightful, you know. At each place, there were bowls and a cloth around it, and silverware and a napkin around it. And you unwrapped the cloth around them and laid it out as a tablecloth.

[23:05]

And at the end, water was served and you rinsed your silverware. And I went ahead and rinsed my dishes and drank the water and they said to me later, we used to do that, we don't do that anymore. But it was, you know, it was just a delight to see. I mean, this tradition is a thousand years old from Egypt and Europe, and our tradition is a thousand years old from China and Japan, and it all comes down to the same thing. It's just really, it was just, it was sweet. It was a very sweet moment for me to just feel that similarity. Another, well, I won't go off on that sidetrack just yet. Then there was a very interesting, after the paper on contemplation,

[24:13]

there was a very interesting paper on what's called Lectio Divina, which again reminded me, Lectio Divina is reading the scripture but listening with your heart. And I think it might be interesting, she quotes a letter, an unpublished letter of Thomas Merton's, written to a Sufi scholar who asked him, you know, how do you pray and what do you do when you pray? So he wrote actually a detailed account of his day in the hermitage, and I think you might, since it's not published, you might like to hear this.

[25:16]

My very dear friend, I go to bed about 7.30 at night and rise about 2.30 in the morning. On rising I say part of the canonical office consisting of the psalms, lessons and so forth, and then I take an hour or an hour and a quarter for meditation. I follow this with Bible reading and then make some tea or coffee with perhaps a piece of fruit or some honey. With breakfast I begin reading and continue reading and studying until about sunrise. At sunrise I say another office of psalms and so forth and then begin my manual work, which includes sweeping, cleaning, cutting wood and other necessary jobs. This finishes about 9 o'clock, at which time I say another office of the psalms. If I have time I may write a few letters. After this I go down to the monastery to say Mass, as I'm not permitted to say Mass at the hermitage. It is better in a way to leave all this stuff, he talks about you need all the vestments and so forth,

[26:22]

to leave all this stuff at the monastery. It would be hard to care for so many things and keep them clean at the hermitage. After Mass I take one cooked meal in the monastery and then I return immediately to the hermitage, usually without seeing or speaking to anyone. When I speak it is to the abbot, whom I see once a week. On returning to the hermitage I do some light reading and then say another office about 1 o'clock and this is followed by another hour or more of meditation. On feast days I can take an hour and a half or two hours for this afternoon meditation. Then I work at my writing. Usually I do not have more than an hour and a half or two hours at the most for this each day. Following that, it now being late afternoon, I say another office of psalms and prepare for myself a light supper. I keep down to a minimum of cooking, usually only tea or soup and make a sandwich of some sort, thus I have only a minimum of dishes to wash. After supper I have another hour or more of meditation, after which I go to bed.

[27:22]

Now you ask about my method of meditation. Strictly speaking I have a very simple way of prayer. It is centered entirely on attention to the presence of God and His will and His love. That is to say that it is centered on faith, by which alone we can know the presence of God. One might say this gives my meditation the character described by the prophet as being before God as if you saw Him. Yet it does not mean imagining anything or conceiving a precise image of God for to my mind this would be a kind of idolatry. On the contrary, it is a matter of adoring Him as invisible and infinitely beyond our comprehension and realizing Him as all. My prayer tends very much to what you call fana, or in Princess Sunyata. There is in my heart this great thirst to recognize totally the nothingness of all that is not God. My prayer is then a kind of praise rising up out of the center of nothing and silence.

[28:30]

If I am still present to myself, this I recognize as an obstacle. If He wills, He can then make the nothingness into a total clarity. If He does not will, then the nothingness actually seems itself to be an object and remain an obstacle. Such is my ordinary way of prayer or meditation. It is not thinking about anything but a direct seeing of the face of the invisible which cannot be found unless we become lost in Him who is invisible. I do not ordinarily write about such things and ask you therefore to be discreet about it. But I write about this as a testimony of confidence and friendship. It will show you how much I appreciate the tradition of Sufism and so forth. And then she goes on to talk about how she in her monastery teaches and does Lectio Divina

[29:32]

and it sounds so much like how we understand studying scriptures if you study the Abhidharma where it begins with Srutamaya which is hearing and Cintamaya which is considering, studying, reading commentary, becoming really familiar with the text which you are reading. And the third is Bhavanamaya, making it part of yourself, sitting with it and letting it come to rest in the stream of your being, Bhavana. And this is the actual description of how we study the Dharma in Buddhist texts

[30:32]

and her description of Lectio Divina is so similar to that that I was struck by it. She says, most sisters begin with reading scripture and then Lectio Divina is listening to the text as one body and soul. This is listening with the ear of the heart. It is closer to ritual. This kind of reading has to be taught since in our times we read for information. Lectio Divina is not functional but personal. It is closer to ritual than intellectual activity. When done wholeheartedly, Lectio is followed by discursive meditation. Meditation is about the text and moves organically toward the subject of the text. So this is what is called Cintamaya in Buddhist teaching.

[31:35]

And then we come to the making it part of oneself. She talks about then, thus all day long interior prayer and individual periods of Lectio and discursive meditation are punctuated with the common prayer of the divine office. Let me do this. She goes into some steps here that sound so much like the Buddhist teaching. Anyhow, maybe I won't try to pick out the detail of it. But again, if you have... Some people have spoken to me about how...

[32:40]

speak to me in Dzogchen about how to read Buddhist texts and how to study Buddhist texts and how to enter into them more than just intellectually. And I think this is a wonderful description from their tradition which would throw light on our own tradition. Then we had papers on the stages of meditation in the Theravada path of purity and the stages of prayer in the Christian monastic tradition. And then another...

[33:41]

some phenomena associated with the stages of prayer in the monastic tradition in the Christian monastic tradition in another paper. And then we had a tribute to Thomas Merton. So in here will be some excerpts from the tribute to Thomas Merton. And about this time the Dalai Lama started doing his teachings which I'll just have to tell you the titles of and they will come along in due time. So he gave the first one on the Tibetan Buddhist approaches to meditation and then the second was on meditation stages and experiences on the Tibetan Buddhist path. And then one on the role of the spiritual teacher and the place of the Sangha in Tibetan Buddhist meditation. And then we went on to talk about teacher and Sangha

[34:47]

from the Theravadan point of view, the spiritual guide in Christian tradition, the role of teacher in the discussion. You know, we brought up the role of teacher in the various other Buddhist traditions as well. And then we talked about the importance of monastic community in the various Buddhist traditions, talked about the significance of Sangha and then there was a paper from the Catholic point of view of the importance of monastic community. So each of the elements of our life of practice we looked at together, our own tradition and the Catholic tradition

[35:49]

and how they were similar and how they were different. And then a Korean monk, Korean Zen monk from Chicago gave a paper on the relation of Zen awakening to social transformation. And so we got into a lot of discussion about engaged practice, socially engaged practice. And in this discussion in particular, because he brought up some indignation at certain injustices and we got into a discussion of anger and this discussion kept coming up over several of the dialogues because there was a real difference among us.

[36:54]

And in particular, there was this difference of is anger ever a helpful emotion? And among the Catholics, you know, in the Catholic tradition there is sometimes, they have spoken of just wars, you know. And particularly in this realm of the social action, people say, well surely there are times when anger is necessary in the face of injustice, you know, as a necessary and appropriate response to injustice. And so we had this really deep discussion of is anger ever a helpful emotion or is it always an afflictive emotion? And it was a very interesting conversation

[37:57]

and particularly around this question of injustice. And one of the people there was Mahagosananda who is sometimes spoken of as the Cambodian Gandhi. He is a monk of, he sat there looking so peaceful. He was sitting cross-legged all the time with this beatific smile on his face, this very translucent, you may have seen him. He was here last year and stayed in the building when there was this meeting of Theravadan teachers over at the guest house that Jack Kornfield organized. I don't know if you remember him. But he looks completely at peace. And he is, he does these thousand mile peace walks. He is probably in his 80s.

[38:57]

And he is one of the few remaining monks in the Cambodian tradition. Most of the Cambodian Sangha has been annihilated in this war. 50,000 Cambodian monks have been killed. So here is a man who has seen extraordinary injustice. So at some point someone handed him the portable microphone and said, well what do you think about this, Marcosananda? And he said with a smile, when you know suffering, you know nirvana, which is the Pali word, we say nirvana in the Sanskrit, but he being a Theravadan would say nirvana. That's all he said, when you know suffering, you know nirvana. And he handed the microphone back. And there was this sort of long silence.

[40:02]

And this was one of the teachings. This is a pretty intense teaching. And in myself, this had rather a deep effect on me as I began to think, you know I have spoken many times about the deep compassion I personally felt from Suzuki Roshi, which was such an important inspiration to practice for me. And I began to think, you know, and I saw Marcosananda there and the Dalai Lama, and I began to think, and I thought of Esan Dorsey, the people I've known who've been extraordinarily compassionate. And I thought, each one of them has known extraordinary, Thich Nhat Hanh, has known extraordinary suffering in their life. And I felt in myself this kind of tension

[41:13]

between yearning for that capacity of compassion that I saw in these people, and sort of shrinking from wanting to be comfortable and shrinking from the possibility of that kind of suffering that I think may be the most potent source of that kind of compassion. So it was a very interesting insight into myself and my process and just where I am in my life and practice. Not that I think I should go out seeking suffering, but just seeing in myself this kind of tension was very interesting. One of the kind of delightful things that happened,

[42:15]

well, Yi Fa, this woman from China, gave a talk on the bhikkhuni sangha in Mahayana tradition in Taiwan. And as I told you, she ended up, after speaking of the strong bhikkhuni tradition in Taiwan, of making a big pitch to the bhikshus there to take care of business in their own traditions and get the bhikkhuni ordination going again. And then we had a presentation on what makes a Chan master. From Master Sheng Yen, it was delivered by his disciple, who is the head of the monastery in Elmhurst, New York, when Master Sheng Yen is not there. Those of us who were in the practice period last spring here became familiar with, or last fall, familiar with Master Sheng Yen

[43:22]

because we used his commentary on Xin Xin Ming as one of our, the Mind of Faith, as one of our texts last year. So there's a paper from him on what makes a Chan master. And then there was a paper on the ideal of Christian holiness in the contemplative life. And then there's a paper from this person whom I referred to as the Theravada Fundamentalist, who's very active in interfaith dialogue and a Buddhist perspective on interfaith dialogue. And his point of view was, let's not get mixed up by looking at the similarities. We can't make these two things the same, they're different. Let's just appreciate and respect each other and be friends.

[44:23]

And that was fine, too. But, I mean, he was, he didn't have much patience with trying to notice the similarities. Shin Nishimura, who's now head of the, he is at the International Research Institute of Zen Buddhism at Hanazono University in Kyoto. And then the rest are just biographies. Biographical statements of other participants who didn't give papers. So I really recommend this to you,

[45:28]

and I want to tell you one little personal story about what happened to me. There were, in addition to the participants, about 25 invited, or maybe more, invited observers who were mostly Catholic religious or Catholic lay people who were deeply involved in contemplative prayer. And they didn't participate in the dialogue during the week, although they had sort of a meeting among themselves every day to kind of go over the papers of the morning and so forth. But on the last day, the last day was turned over to them, and they were invited to give their responses to the participants and let, just say something of what their experience had been. And one of the last people to speak at that session,

[46:33]

and this was the last session, was a woman of about my age who spoke with a deep Alabama accent. And I liked what she had to say about her experience, but when she said she was from a Benedictine monastery in Cullman, Alabama, which is just about 15 miles from where I was born and raised, I said, I've got to meet her. And she apparently had kind of spotted me. There was something about the fact that I was an abbess that was kind of attractive to many of the Catholic women religious there because there were quite a number of women there who were heads of their communities, but they're called prioresses, and they are not on an equal hierarchical status with the men. So I was the only woman there who was on an equal hierarchical status with the men. And that, of course, is of quite some interest

[47:35]

to many women Catholic religious nowadays. So she had kind of spotted me and wanted to meet me, and so at the end of this session, I turned to look, to seek her out, and she turned to seek me out, and we kind of fell in each other's arms, and we had this wonderful meeting, and we had lunch together, and we were just really enjoying each other's company. And I mentioned that, you know, and as I've mentioned here before, when I was a child in 1932 during the Depression, the public schools in the county where I lived closed because they just ran out of money, and they just closed. And so my parents, wanting to keep me in school, put me into the only private school in town, which was a Catholic school. So I mentioned this to her, and I was down in Tuscaloosa, and I went to this Catholic school in the first and second grade, and she said, Tuscaloosa? Well, those were nuns from, those were from our community.

[48:36]

Nobody but our nuns teach in Tuscaloosa. And she was just so excited. I said, well, it was Sister Mary Antonio and Sister Mary Catherine. She said, well, Sister Mary Antonio is dead, but Sister Mary Catherine is still with us. And so there's my second grade teacher, still a nun down there in a Benedictine monastery in Alabama. I wrote her a card, and I'm going to go visit her. Now, I was thinking all this week that I really wanted to go spend some time in a women's monastery just following their daily schedule with them. But there were these women from Missouri and Iowa and Louisiana and Wisconsin and Minnesota, and where will I go?

[49:38]

And then, well, that was pretty clear after I met her where I would go, and she immediately invited me to come down there. So I couldn't carve out but four days out of my calendar, but I'm going to be going down there in September before the practice period starts and follow their schedule for a few days and see my second grade teacher who did make a big impression on me. When I asked Sister Morris, this woman who was there, she's a very interesting woman. I mean, I never would have expected it from a Catholic nun in Alabama, but she has spent quite some time in India at Bede Griffith's ashram, Fr. Bede Griffith, and she went up and he set her up to do a vipassana retreat with Goenka and Bodhgaya. It was quite a delightful surprise to me, and we just had a wonderful... It seems like such a completion

[50:39]

of a karmic circle somehow because these two women who were my teachers in Catholic school were the first people I had ever met who were living these lives of devotion, which is sort of the basis of my practice. I've said from the outset I'm a faith person and my practice is a devotional practice more than anything else. And these were the first examples I had seen of that possibility in life, and it made a big impression on me and I think has a great deal to do with what I'm doing now. I asked Sister Morris, I said, What is Sister Mary Catherine going to think about the fact that this young woman who said she was influenced by her is now a Buddhist nun? And she said,

[51:39]

She'll be thrilled. She'll just be thrilled. And in fact, apparently she was. When she came back down there with my card, Sister Mary Catherine was very happy. So this is just a little icing on the cake for me. I do hope that you will take the time to read some of these papers. I think you will find them very helpful in appreciating our own tradition and in appreciating the tradition of the Catholic monastics you may have occasion to meet. I mean, we all kind of know and love Brother David, who is the one Catholic monastic that I've really had an opportunity to be close to over the years. But just imagine yourself in kind of a room full of Brother Davids and you'll get a sense of what this week was like. Thank you.

[52:41]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ