Unknown year, September talk, Serial 01885

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that's one of the strange thing is this mom
this experience of identity with what until the almond had been
conceptually the opposite of me
and i felt this unmistakable
ah feeling of identity with what until that moment had been the opposite of me
and it was mind boggling i couldn't understand how a riot squad and policemen and i could be identical
but it was you know it was the experience of self couldn't be argued with
no later as i studied i've heard the expression self another are not to
i'd never heard such a thing before
but it was something like that i suppose that experience i don't want to conceptualize at too much the point about it was that it was clearly more real than any experience i've ever had in my life before
ah and that's what i brought this for now i was trying to know what could i print for this is i ran across
the other day own watches what is this this is it now i don't know how many people
here have are familiar with me lecturing but it's kind of a joke how often my fame is just this is it
and here's this book which i never heard of by alan watts called this is it
but he has this coat that's interesting
the most impressive fact and man's spiritual intellectual and poetic experience has always been for me the universal prevalence of those astonishing moments of insight which which richard book called cosmic consciousness there is no really satisfactory name for this type of experience
to call it mystical is to confuse it with visions of another world or of gods and angels to call it spiritual is or metaphysical is to suggest that it is not also extremely concrete invisible while the term cosmic consciousness itself has the and poetic flavor of oculus jargon
but from all historical times and cultures we have reported the same unmistakable sensation emerging as a rule quite suddenly and unexpectedly and from know clearly understood cause
to the individual bus enlightened it appears as a vivid and overwhelming certainty that the universe precisely as it is at this moment is a whole as a whole and in every one of its parts is so completely right as to need no explanation or justification begun but it simply
it is
existence not only ceases to be a problem the mind is so wonderstruck at the self evident and self sufficient fitness of things as they are including what would ordinarily be thought the very words that it cannot find anywhere in strong enough to express the perfection and beauty of the experience
it's clarity sometimes gives the sensation that the world has become transparent or luminous
isn't that has pervaded and ordered by a supreme intelligence at the same time it is usual for the individual to feel that the whole world has become his own body and that whatever he is has not only become but always has been what everything else is
it is not that he loses his identity to the point of feeling that he actually looks out through all other eyes the coming literally omniscient but rather that his individual consciousness and existence is a point of view temporarily adopted by some something immeasurably been greater than himself can he
goes on
they have i read that murtha gee that's
that's i've never read anything about one wants for actually surprisingly the
and just found this up in the third floor you know where all these books her stash for somebody who wants to peruse them
and brought it down to read
this is sort of the unofficial lending library and since and where people put their discarded books and other people but take them for a while cervix book exchange up on the third june
so this experience with the riot squad policeman it was totally
unfathomable to me i mean i actually didn't
can i talk about it i can remember talking about it that your vision i know i've mentioned it before but and talked about it today cause i wanted to be on the state because this is my way seeking mind talk in this was a very important then but what
what happened was it whatever boundary i thought i had just expanded and expanded and expanded to include everything
what was that on i guess so
but working
well this worries me because i wanted to be recording
well that's the thing that's the yeah
i just told him
you know i thought the world is not like i thought it was i don't understand this you know how can i in the right squad policemen be identical
who knows about this
and then i started looking for who knows about this and some months later i went to the berkeley all ah both some months later actually i went to a friend's house whose son ah
had been my gardener and who was now at tassajara
and he told me about the berkeley zendo
and i thought zen buddhism for that's weird
ah hmm hmmm
so that was actually in may and i didn't actually go to the out july
but i had doesn't instruction july third nineteen sixty nine and i started sitting zazen daily
that day
and i could not understand
what i was doing or why i was doing it he was really weird because you know my father than an atheist i adored my father that i think that probably came across
and clearly this was some kind of religious experience i was having
and zen buddhism and i didn't know anybody in nineteen sixty nine i didn't know anybody and nino the said sam
but i went to my friend's house and her son paul disco was up from tassajara and he had been my gardener when he was fourteen and he told me about the berkeley zendo in may
and i turned it over in my mind until july third i went over there and had meditation instruction and started sitting daily from that day
all the while four months' kind of
what and i'll send buddhism this is weird i don't know anybody who does this ah i just just all this kind of argument in my head but every morning at four thirty i'd get up and go to the sandal five o'clock thousand
and after a while i thought well i know but there's somebody here who wants to do this because i was arguing with it all the time and getting up and going to the zendo every day
that's where i met suzuki roshi used to come every monday and give a lecture
when lou came home from connecticut and he was sitting zazen to
i invited him to come to present her with me and he said that's your trip i am tired of having women run my life and he made us and do at home
first it was my mother and there's my school teachers know my first wife now it's you now
but he came down on monday i said well you know suzuki roshi is going to be lecturing to they wanted to come down today so he came down met suzuki roshi and then that it was kind of irrelevant ah who's trip it was or whatever he started sitting there too
so we sat there at berkeley for three years coming over to first to so koji temple suzuki roshi would give a lecture every wednesday night so we came to that and then every saturday morning there's a half day sitting know like if you did
if you did morning and breakfast nine twenty five says and the lecture he would be sort of like what they did to periods the xhosa but to be subtle like what they did it and so koji every saturday morning was kind of a half day sitting lot of people who live here don't go to nine twenty five thousand and anymore
which is a pity that you don't have to sitting here we we shifted
so is what i heard him every wednesday night and every saturday morning and then every monday morning he came to berkeley and gave a talk came to berkeley on monday morning he went to mill valley on tuesday morning and talked it but bill kong's little sandow he did as wednesday night talk at so cookie
temple and he went once a week to en los altos which is where he gave the talks literate and set mind beginner's mind those talks and send my beginner's mind that have affected so many people over the years were given sometimes only two or three people in someone's living room
ah it's just an amazement to me
so there he was doing one to the four or five lectures every week
to amazing
he really really wanted to give us
what he thought was the most important thing he had to offer which was don't send your teaching
and he knew he didn't have a long time to do it and so he just pour himself into us and such a total totally unselfish way it was really amazing

so i'm blathering on you have any questions or anything to curious when you ask the experience of not to that
listen what you said in a lecture would politics but that you went under the school and stuff like that the what if you can say partly i'm curious about what you did in the next two minutes but you stayed there with your body between well i kept you know backing up slowly saying don't rush
you know because they were people behind us and there are buildings behind us and they need to be time for
and one of the interesting things that happen which was probably purely coincidence but i don't know because i was in kind of an altered state
when i ducked under the hands in front of me to to be between police and students that was the moment that whoever was guiding that phalanx of policemen blew a whistle and they changed from poking to whole
cutting their sticks this way whether there was a relationship between the two events i have no idea it seemed to me at the time that there was but it could have been totally coincidence
yeah i went on you know to a meeting to form the parents committed to support the strike and so forth but ah
that event became the most important thing for me to understand that event you know something like oh
it was
i have to find someone who understands this
and the close thing i can say is when i met suzuki roshi since he looked at me like there was no separation
i thought he understands what happened that was some months later
between fall it was the beginning of school and sixty eight fall of sixty eight that the thing happened at state
and it was sir
on july third
nineteen sixty nine that i went to the berkeley zendo in the meanwhile i had tried a bunch of other things somebody and the way i heard about the perfect center was some one where i was working ah was doing this yoga cleanout diet they weren't yoga and they were doing this sprinkler
nina diet where you didn't you well it's kind of crew there it you took these animals and then you didn't eat anything but raw vegetables for a week so i was in the middle of that when i went to my friend's house for dinner where she served coquille saw a shark
and i said i'm so sorry this is where paul disco was it's time his mother i'm so sorry i you know don't like i can't eat this i'm i'm in the middle of a spring clean diet yoga cleaner diagram i'm just eating raw vegetables i brought with me and she and pulsar that's all right ali years and his big guy or and
how many of you know paul disco is a carpenter and one of the securities early students one of the early people you are dane he's to be my gardener when he was fourteen
and then lose that while i'm on this diet with her and he said okay i'll eat yours too
ah but somehow in the course of the conversation he told me about the berkeley sandal
enough accident tourism boom and that was may i didn't actually go to july
meanwhile this friend had given me this book on the same person
so i just was curious enough finally and then and hurting enough i me just really my life was
and ahead to understand how to live my life and the face of the impermanence that experience with my friend and myself
and more you know nagarajan it says
seeing into impermanence is bodhicitta
ha is the mind of awakening
and so that experiences
i'm gonna die it isn't just
people die in or shrill die some day or something it's like became very personal that everyone dies was not personal to me until until those to exude parents of pat dying and experience with me almost dying
you know my doctor came in the morning after i was admitted to the hospital said point my glad to see you
and by wish i understood that he actually hadn't expected me to survive the night
a man
so that was a real wake up
many oh yeah i'm curious if when you looked the on the guy just a person or more like the image that he forgotten
rejected on what did i see what i looked into his eyes
well what happened was that
what i saw was somehow identity and what i felt was the sort of infinite expansion of any boundaries that might exist between so that what i felt was identity
ah i didn't have any thought
i just i felt an identity
that was
i had no words for me later on i said well you know he was he was defending all he thought was right and good from others that he thought were going to to racket and i was doing the same thing but that was just that was just trying to get some concept that would explain what happened but that didn't really explain what happened
you know
it was just what it was you know we're not too
and it was mystifying and yet
i knew there was more real than anything any ideas i had
and as i say when i met as the hiroshi and looked in his eyes somehow i had the feeling he understands that somehow the way you're looking at me there was no separation
it was a more experienced that idea
i mean there wasn't any idea i kept looking for an idea that wood and composite
and as i say later the idea of self another i'm not to us at all that's what they're talking about what did you feel
i felt time stands still i felt whatever might have been the boundary of of myself just expanding to include everything
i think this is what our wants is trying to describe in this paragraph when i read that i thought oh he's trying to describe something like what i felt my son wants went up to the sierra with some friends and he came back and
i asked him you know how the trip a pity said it was virtually said i saw god
and i think was an experience like that of losing all sense of separation between self and other or self and not self the moment water loss of the yes yeah yeah just expanding boundless lee you see a recognition
and for no reason i can't say one wherein the other people have asked me what what happened to him i don't know
i don't know i do know they stop poking and started hauling the this way but i don't know if there was a connect me
but i i really did start searching at that point for who understands how arrives court policemen and i can be identical because right squad policemen in that kind of political atmosphere was
sort of a symbol of the opposite of me
you know so how can i be identical with what i think it's opposite and it was clearly more real than my thoughts
mean i had no doubt about the veracity of the experience i just could not stand the meaning of it
or what what the consequence was for my life but i knew my life had to change to include that reality
or to really be based on that reality
of course you know these moments of clarity are very clear but our habits of mind that we are separate you know our our habit of self clinging is very strong
it's the habit out of which all suffering arises
and certainly that experience undermined it but it didn't
eradicate it
the idea of a separate self keeps returning the the illusion of a separate self keeps returning
but i think that's what's meant by shunyata or by
dependent core arising that we rise whatever this is it arrives arises fresh on each moment
in response to all of the causes and conditions surrounding it there isn't some permanent thing here that goes around that has all these experiences there's no substantial self visible to put us all
but this idea of a separate self is very persistent the delusion of a separate self as very persistent
but you know in the moment that it dropped away the reality of that experience was totally undeniable
and that so that's the kind of thing that part stays with you
when you get caught up in your delusion of a separate self began again and again you know at some points so yeah but i know that this is just my idea of self
but you didn't you getting you know grab and run with it for quite awhile before you say lips caught again
your hand up
who's wondering
was that
i don't know
geoffrey yeah i don't know decrease i'm not evil
or debris
riot policeman is not a don't like
i'm thinking of a story i heard the holocaust five i'm she was given a choice by an ss man we had one glass i am my meal
he or she can guess which i was real i eat would allow one episode with the other we have a
and she wanted his glass lot
he said why not i said why you wouldn't yet
so i mean is there a point at which human he comes in set a that
not absolutely
i don't know
i don't know
i think if i allow myself to be taken over by hatred i will be capable of what the assess people were capable of
so my job is to not get caught up in hatred and separation
my job is to take care of my practice and to see all beings as buddha
ah and to act to conduct myself in such a way
ah i think that there is
ha dreadful suffering
that comes about by separating ourselves from other human beings
it isn't that
ah i don't get caught by it
but as soon as i notice i'm caught by it
i say suffering is that way
that is the road to suffering
i've been there i don't want to do that
how can i
how can i for example it before peace
rather than against war
man i was fighting for peace
and at some point i i had both before this thing with the right squad policeman i'd already had that experience of noticing that i was fighting for peace but there was no peace in me so there was some real contradiction there about fighting for peace
and i was hating the people with whom i disagreed and wishing them dead
and that's just what happens when you come up with the conviction of i'm right and he's wrong
ah so how do i work toward the world that
that i think is truly human
without falling into hatred
of those who
who view the world differently i don't i can't always do that but on
i think that's that's where my practices

i know my husband's experience with a traditional german upbringing when he was small
and i presumed that adolf eichmann and a himmler and that cetera et cetera had such an upbringing you know the first thing is break their spirit early
so i could imagine a lot of anger and hatred as being built into someone with that kind of upbringing
ah a lot of fear

so i have to you know when i find myself caught up in anger than the next thing is to try to see
try to experience how that connects me with all the people who are suffering in that way
rather than letting it become something that separates me from everything the function of anger separation according to the abbey dharma
and you can see how that is when anger arises you push things away
so in a how can i see instead the connection rather than the difference
the connection and the suffering
you know it it's it's not just to kind of lie down and let
injustice walk over you
but it's how to meet it without hatred that version
how to see yourself in the other person
you separate
kennedy's worth that
i don't know you know i've of
it depends on whether the intent is harm or not
what the attack
if i can deter evil without without myself
engaging in evil that's one thing
you know is best quite a way
but when people and work
people just like
if if there is evil is is a very good question
if there is suffering there is suffering
ah if suffering sometimes produces a harmful eggs
ah because of some unskillful response to it
is that evil i don't know i mean what is evil
is there good and evil
someone said the i have been older i was mad that an evil i have one sovereign
a day and what else we know what okay
he was
and yet i don't know what evil is a i don't know if it's a
if it's a conceptual thing or a real thing there certainly is is suffering there certainly is harm in the world there's certainly is suffering i believe that that harm is done by people who have also suffered harm
which doesn't excuse it but ah
to say that it is evil
i'm not sure
i can say there is suffering i'm not sure i can say there is evil
per se i don't know
i can say i have done i have done harmful things i have certainly been overcome by hatred
you are night
who knows i am capable of evil however i'm capable of evil acts i think that that's the point that i discovered that i was fighting for peace and that i was wishing my political opponents dead and i was shocked by it
and so where's the difference between them and me
you know
i think we're getting in the way of people who want to eat their lunch i'm sorry to say but because this is i'm enjoying this is more important glacier
i don't know but i'm i'm enjoying and thank you thank you very much
thank you