This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. As you know, in Zen temples all over the world now, there are Seshins coming alive. And these Seshins are often called Rohatsu Seshins. These Seshins, to some extent, are like celebrations of the historical Buddha attaining the way in India. 25 centuries ago.

[01:02]

And the day that's often used to celebrate it in particular is December 8th, which, as you know, was yesterday. So yesterday was the traditional day, and now we start a sashin, which we can dedicate to the historical Buddha, Shakyamuni. Maybe we'll have a big ceremony later in this session to celebrate this great attainment by the Buddha. Now as we come into this seshin and sit on the threshold of the end of this practice period.

[02:09]

I thought I might just give a little summary, even though some of you remember what I said before. I'll give a summary and say it again. The theme of this practice period is zazen, as face-to-face communion. We sometimes use the expression, Bodhidharma came from India and transmitted the Buddha mind seal. But another way to say it is, Bodhidharma came from India. and transmitted face-to-face transmission. Bodhidharma came and transmitted face-to-face transmission.

[03:17]

Face-to-face transmission is the Buddha mind seal. Bodhidharma came and transmitted zazen. Suzuki Roshi came and transmitted Zazen. They came and transmitted face-to-face transmission. They came and practiced face-to-face transmission with us. And we feel so grateful that we had this meeting with Bodhidharma, and Suzuki Roshi. If we would say that in the Zen school, the practice of the Zen school is Zazen, that would maybe not be such a controversial statement.

[04:29]

I had this memory that I was going through the American Heritage Dictionary with my daughter when she was a little girl, looking at the pictures and looking at the words. And she said, what's Zazen? And I turned to the end of the book and looked up Zazen, and it actually was in the American Heritage Dictionary. And it says, Zazen is the religious meditation of the Zen school of Buddhism. And there's an American Heritage Dictionary over in the Abbott's Cabin, but maybe it's an older edition. It doesn't have Zazen in it. It's kind of a travesty that in the Zen temple, our dictionary doesn't have Zazen. But anyway, that one did. And it said Zazen is the religious meditation of the Zen school of Buddhism. To say that zazen is face-to-face transmission, when you heard me say that at the beginning of the practice period, did I say that at the beginning of the practice period, that zazen is face-to-face transmission?

[05:48]

Did I? Were you surprised to hear that? No. Two people were not surprised. Anybody surprised? Well, I was. I'm surprised that I'm mentioning this because But I feel like I mentioned it because I thought it would be surprising. I didn't think everybody knew already that Zazen is face-to-face transmission. So I guess I waste my time. Waste my breath, as they say. Because you already knew. Well, that's great. And thank you so much for putting up with me, telling you over and over what you already knew. That's wonderful. That's real face-to-face transmission. that you patiently listen to somebody say over and over what you already know. Great. You probably have also heard that zazen is dropping off body and mind.

[06:52]

That's another thing we say. Zazen is dropping off body and mind. And so I'm saying that face-to-face transmission is dropping off body and mind. So I'm preaching to the choir, but I'll just tell you again, Dogen Zenji says that the treasury of true Dharma eyes The subtle and wondrous mind of nirvana is nothing other than face-to-face transmission. It's nothing other than giving of a face and receiving of a face.

[07:55]

That's the whole treasury of true Dharma eyes. That's the whole wondrous mind of nirvana. And in this giving of the face and receiving of the face, there's not a single thing that's given and not a single thing that's received. This is right out of Mahayana sutras, like a diamond sutra. When the Buddha attained the way, not a single thing was given, and not a single thing was received. This is basic Mahayana Prajnaparamita teaching in the context of a fully engaged meeting of the universe with the universe in the form of each one of us.

[09:01]

Still, as human beings, we sometimes aren't sure we want to have this face-to-face transmission. We're not sure we want to have this dropping off body and mind. So I ask you over and over, are you ready? Do you want to meet the true dragon? Bodhidharma came to India and transmitted the true dragon. Suzuki Roshi didn't tell us, he was more quiet about it, when he came and transmitted the true dragon. But when people realize the implications of this dragon, they may, what do you call it, fight or flight, or faint. Now, are you ready in this session?

[10:15]

Do you want to meet the true dragon? Are you ready to meet the true dragon? Am I ready to meet the true dragon of the face-to-face transmission of the universe? every moment of life every moment of experience is the whole universe meeting the whole universe giving rise to the whole universe all over the universe as each person as each tree as each rock as each drop of water The whole universe meets the whole universe and gives rise to the whole universe in every single form in the universe.

[11:23]

During the first two sessions, I told stories from a text called The Transmission of the Light. Transmission of the Light. In other words, transmission of face-to-face transmission. Transmission of Zasem. There's about 50 stories in the book. of the transmission of Zaza. Now, during those two sessions, we went through the first eight Indian ancestors of our lineage. And the first story, the first meeting, is the meeting that

[12:42]

we're celebrating in this session. The meeting of Shakyamuni Buddha with all beings and the great earth. Sitting on the earth, looking at the stars in the sky, and waking up to the face-to-face transmission of himself with all beings and the great earth. It's the first story and it's a success story. It's a story about somebody who was ready to meet the true dragon and he met the true dragon and now we have this now we have this true dragon to receive and give for the rest of our life. And in the next story, the Buddha is meeting a group of people face to face and he raises a flower and blinks.

[14:12]

His face blinks or winks. And another face smiles. And so we have the next generation of the transmission of Zazen. No sign of hesitation. Maha Kastipa is ready and willing to meet the Buddha. And the Buddha says, okay, this is the treasury of true Dharma eyes with the wondrous mind and nirvana. I now entrust it to this person, this human being. Success. And then we went through, I guess, seven more generations of people meeting and pretty quickly accepting the meeting.

[15:12]

And another successful face-to-face transmission historically arose. tell the truth, I was intending to continue just to sort of march down through history, through the stories of these ancestors. And I will, but I'm temporarily taking a little somewhat pause in that particular storytelling because I heard a strong request for stories about women practitioners. And so I have some stories. And one I prepared you for the other day.

[16:15]

It's a story about a man and a woman meeting. And the preparation for it was to discuss the teachers of this man and this woman. So the man in the story is, his name is Guang Zhixian. Actually, Guang Zhixian. And the woman in the story is named Mo Shan. Lial Ran. Their teachers, Jurxian's teacher was Linji. And Moshan's teacher was Dayu.

[17:25]

Gawan Dayu. And again, I alluded to the story of Lin Ji, the founder of the Lin Ji school, his face-to-face transmission with his teacher. And I think it's good to tell that story because it's a story of where a really sincere Zen monk was in a monastery where there was a great compassionate teacher, and there was also a great, she saw a great head monk, and his name was Mu Jal.

[18:32]

And I'm pulling the reins back on me, on myself, to not tell you stories about Mu Jal. So Mu Jia was the head monk of the monastery where Lin Ji was practicing and everything was going fine in a lot of ways. And Mu Jia said to Lin Ji, how long have you been here? Lin Ji said, two or three years. He said, have you gone to see the teacher yet? And he said, no. I feel fine. I don't need to. Mu Zhou said, I really recommend you go see him. I really recommend you go. He said, just see him. I'm saying, no, I'm saying, I really recommend you go and practice face-to-face transmission with this teacher who happens to be right here in this monastery with you.

[19:39]

do you realize you're in a monastery with a guy named Wong Bo? And so he said, well, what should I say? He said, well, ask him what's the essential quintessential true Dharma. So he goes and asks Wong Bo that and I guess he's standing pretty close. because Wang Lo reaches out and gives him a slap. It doesn't say where. Anyway, it gives him a slap. And, yeah, that's the first meeting. But you might say it was unsuccessful. Later, the head monk asked Linji, how did it go?

[20:42]

And he said, well, I asked him the question and he slapped me. That's what it says in the books. But in brackets, I would say, he slapped me and that didn't really seem like a really good thing. That didn't seem like what I'm practicing for. That didn't seem like... the treasury of juridharma eyes, subtle mind and nirvana, totally, this is great kind of thing. It just seemed like a little bit uncomfortable. And that's that. And then the head monk said, well, you should visit him again. Ask him again. So he did. And Wang Bo slapped him again. They had face-to-face transmission the first time, but Len Ji didn't think so. So Wang Bo gave him another face-to-face transmission.

[21:42]

They did it again. And then, again, after the second time, the head monk said to Lin Ji, how did it go? And he said, well, it's pretty much the same. He said, you really should ask him again. And he did. And Wang Bo slapped him again. And then he again saw the head monk and the head monk again said, how did it go? And he said, he slapped me a third time. And I'm out of here. I don't want to do this anymore. This, whatever this is. This is not for me. So three times what you might call face-to-face transmission was not appreciated. Then she got to meet the true dragon, but he didn't want to.

[22:48]

He had some other idea of what it would be. And so he had enough and he was going to go someplace else where there wasn't a head monk like this saying go visit him. And the head monk said, well, at least go say goodbye before you leave. And brackets, you can stand farther away this time. Out of reach. And then also brackets, I'll go tell him not to hit you. Anyway, the head monk went and told Wang Bo, this is really a good student. Help him out one more time. And Wang Bo said, I know. I know. Why do you think I'm so nice to him? Close brackets. So he goes and sees Wang Bo and says, thank you so much.

[23:53]

See you later. And Wang Bo says, okay. But, you know, I think it might be helpful if you just wanted to visit a Dharma brother of mine who lives over that mountain, quite nearby. And Lin Ji did. Even though he didn't want any more of Wang Bo for the time being, he followed his suggestion and went over the mountain to visit Da Yu, who is the teacher of Moshan the Aran. Maybe Moshan was there, I don't know. Ah, here comes Lin Ji. I'll let the teacher take care of him. Although I'm tempted to head him off. Anyway, he goes and visits Dayu and tells the story. He said, I don't know if I did something wrong or not. And Dayu says, oh my, [...] oh dear.

[25:01]

He's amazingly kind to you. And Linji woke up to the face-to-face transmission. And then he said, there's not much to Wang Bo's Zen. And then Da Yu says, a few minutes ago you're going, I don't know if I'm right or wrong, and now you're saying that there's not much to Wang Bo's teaching. And he grabs him and he shook him and he said, speak, speak. And then she punched him in the ribs three times. Boom, boom, boom. And Da Yu let him go and said, okay. Okay, all right. You got it. I can see. But Wang Bo is your teacher, not me. So then he goes back to Wang Bo.

[26:09]

And Wang Bo says something like, will this again, or you again, will this never cease? And Lin Ji says, Lin Ji tells him what happened. Tells him about the Great Awakening and what Da You said. Wang Bo says, that guy is too talkative. If I see him again, I'm going to give him a spanking. And Linji said, you don't have to wait to see him again. We can have one right now. And Linji spanks Wang Bo. And Wang Bo says, attended, take this madman out of here, back to the Zendo. Unsuccessful meeting. But then, successful meeting.

[27:13]

Unsuccessful, unsuccessful, unsuccessful. And then, finally, he's able to accept this, the intense version of reality. The intensity of reality. And then people come, and then he, eventually his teacher dies, and he's on his own, and students come to him, and one of the students that came to him was named Jershian. And he saw Jershian coming, and just like Dayu grabbed him, he grabbed Jershian and held him. And Jiaxian said, it is understood.

[28:21]

Or, I understand. Got it. And Linji let him go and said, okay, you can have lunch. Now, this is one of the quick face-to-face transmissions. Jiaxian just immediately hit it off with this Amazing Bodhisattva. At some point, and became his disciple, and at some point he left Linji, and again, I don't know if Linji said, you know, there's a teacher who helped me named Da Wu, and he has a disciple named Moashan. I recommend you go visit her. I don't know if you said that, but anyway, Linji did go visit him. to check her out.

[29:27]

Oh, here's a disciple of a teacher of my teacher. I'll go check out this disciple. This abbess of a monastery. And the mountain, the monastery is called Moshan. There's a mountain called Moshan. And she's the abbot, so they call her Moshan. She's the abbess, so they call her Mwashan. So he goes up to the monastery, and before he enters the hall, he says, he doesn't say, he doesn't say, I'm coming to have face-to-face transmission. He doesn't say that. He says, If there's somebody worthy here, I'll stay here. If not, I'm going to tip over the meditation platforms. And he says it out loud.

[30:31]

I don't know who hears it, but that's what he says. Then he goes into the hall and one of Moshan's attendants sees him and goes and says, Reverend Sir, are you sightseeing? or are you here for the Dharma? And Jiashin says, I'm here for the Dharma. And then the guest attendant goes back and tells Moshan, and Moshan comes and sits on the Dharma seat and invites Jiashin to come and meet her. And he comes into the hall, into the room to meet her, and she She says to him, Reverend Sarah, where do you come from? And he says, I come from the intersection on the main road.

[31:37]

And she says, why don't you take your hat off? And he is silent. Finally, he bows to her in a respectful way and takes his hat off. And he says, is wash on and she says the summit is not revealed michael do you know the word summit the summit is not revealed sir

[32:44]

And he says, who's inside Moshan? And she says, it's not the form of a man or a woman. And then he shouts, and says, well, then why doesn't it change itself? And she says, it's not a wild fox spirit or a ghost. Why should it change into something else? And then Gershon admits the meeting and bows and stays with her for three years, serving as her head gardener.

[34:00]

And so Gershiyan, like his teacher, upon meeting the teacher, had some unreadiness to accept, fully accept the meeting. Some hesitation to let body and mind drop off and accept the treasury of true Dharma eyes. But, like his teacher, He tried again and again and finally he could accept the teaching. Later when he became an abbot and had his monastery, he said to his students, I receive one ladle from Papa Linji. And I received another ladle

[35:21]

No, maybe. I received a half a ladle from Papa Linji. And I received another half ladle from Mama Moshan. Together, I am now fully nourished. So that's the story I offer today of the mind-to-mind, face-to-face, body-to-body transmission. That's the story of Buddha Mind Seal that I offer today. And maybe that's enough. Yeah. Who knows?

[36:23]

It might be. Yeah, that was three stories, right? That was three. Lin Ji and Wang Bo, four actually, Lin Ji and Wang Bo, Lin Ji and Da Yu, and then Jiu Shen with Lin Ji, and then Jiu Shen with Mo Shan. I'm sorry, I don't have a story of Mo Shan with Da Yu. I can't find any stories about her, how she worked with her teacher. have that story about how she worked with her student her male student who initially wouldn't take his hat off and tomorrow I'll tell you a story about a female who wouldn't take her hat off can you wait?

[37:46]

there's anything you would like to express there's an expression station here that everything and every moment is face-to-face transmission.

[38:59]

It can always be realized. It sounds like it doesn't matter so much. I mean, there is the story of the Buddha who has realized face-to-face transmission as a star, and there's the story of Bodhidharma realizing face-to-face transmission meeting the wall. Most of our stories are realization of face-to-face transmission between teacher and student. Bodhidharma, by the way, is in the book too, The Transmission of Light. And in the book they have a story of him having face-to-face transmission with his teacher in India. His teacher is Prajnatara. So he... he had face-to-face transmission with Prajnatara. That's the only story in the book where it's not like another human teacher facing the student is the first one.

[40:11]

Which is why a lot of people say, in Zen, do you need a teacher? Because Buddha didn't have a teacher, right? Well, he did. But anyway, Bodhidharma then continued the face-to-face transmission from that moment that he participated in it with Prajnapar in India, and he made this long trip to China for some reason to transmit this face-to-face transmission. And he did it with the emperor, and then he did it with a wall, which means he did it with a mountain, which means he did it with the whole earth. And then he did it with Huayca and other people. What's your issue? My granddaughter says, I have a tissue for your issue. My question is, if the universe is always meeting the universe, what is the role of the teacher?

[41:16]

The role of the teacher is to find a student. that the teachers find students. As a matter of fact, they're wannabe teachers. They're not really teachers until they find a student. So what does a teacher do? A teacher finds a student. That's the role of a teacher. And the student's role is to find a teacher. That relationship is a performance in the world of something that's a visible performance of an infinite, invisible reality. which is how the universe is meeting with the universe, it's to bring it into our life because people are living in little visible, tiny little visible universes and suffering there. So the teacher-student relationship is a way to open our egocentric enclosure and let the whole universe in, stop resisting the whole universe, that we're actually

[42:24]

totally pervaded by it. So that's a student-teacher thing is to... We need that. We need an other. And the other needs us in order to realize this while still having a human consciousness. One more issue. I'm still resisting. Congratulations. You've held out quite long. Huh? It's hard to resist? Once again? It's hard to hold out so long? Yeah. And I hope you hold out as long as you have to. You have my full support to keep resisting. I'm not trying to control the rate at which you stop resisting. And I think it's good that you have just confessed to everybody that you're resisting what you came here for.

[43:40]

I did too. I came here to study with Suzuki Roshi and then when I got a chance to study with him, I said, thanks, that's enough. See you later. Who knows what would happen to you if you stopped resisting? Huh? Yeah, it could be scary. You might turn into a fish. Or something. We don't know what will happen to you if you stop resisting. You might turn into a nice guy. No, I wouldn't. it wouldn't but then that might change into something else if you kept not resisting anyway it's these great ancestors some of them resisted so it's not what do you call it it's not hopeless you might actually give up like they did and your body and mind might drop off and that will be that will be Zazen

[45:01]

in this world. And that's going to happen with the help of somebody other than you. You're not going to be able to do it by yourself. And the other that's trying to help you, you have admitted in public and it's recorded. Doubting Valerian. You know, a real live example of doubting person. Doubting face-to-face. That's wonderful. Thank you so much. And, Reverend Sir, where did you get your hair cut? At the barbershop. Tazahara Barbershop? Lower Barn Barbershop. Wonderful. Thank you for coming to Upper Barbershop.

[46:06]

We cut hair here too sometimes. So there's a lot of stories about face-to-face transmission that you've told. And the transmission of the light ends shortly after Dogen. What happened to face-to-face transmission after Dogen? There seems to be no more stories. It's just all of a sudden Suzuki arrives in the United States. What happened to face-to-face transmission?

[47:09]

Well, there are more stories. It's just they're not in that book. I've never heard any. It seems like there's this big missing chunk. I'm so much looking forward to you hearing more. Can you tell me one right now? Yeah. I already did tell you one. But I'll tell you again. This is just one that pops up in my head. There's a lot of them. So once upon a time... So Dogen's in the book, right? But Tetsugikai's not in the book, right? but I told you stories about Tetsugikai, didn't I? Yeah. Yeah. What about after him? Because, like, that's kind of like, that seems to be worse. Okay, well, I also have stories of Tetsugikai and who? Dogen. Well, I told you the stories of Tetsugikai and Dogen. And then I also have stories of Tetsugikai and Keizan.

[48:11]

And then I have stories of Keizan and his. And I have stories of Ga-san, Jou-seki, Dai-yo-jo, and Maizan-bon-pom, Dai-yo-jo. And Yuki and I did the rest of them. So we have all of them right up to Suzuki Roshi. And then we also have stories of Suzuki Roshi to Zen-tatsu, Myo-yu, and with me. other people. And then we have stories of me and so on. We do have stories. And so if you hang around, you're going to hear them. And I'd be very happy just, as I said, march through the stories. If I have time, I'll do that. And if you're around, you'll hear them. But there are the stories. And it's important that we take care of them.

[49:12]

But I'd want to just... I'm trying to tell stories about the women for a little while, okay? But yeah, we do want stories of this transmission. Some of us find it helpful. Interesting, too. Yeah, they're interesting, too. say zazen is face-to-face transmission, what do you mean?

[50:22]

What do I mean? I mean that zazen is something that you do together with an other. It's not something that we do by ourself. Zazen is a relationship. And the other is, you know, actually infinite and beyond our ideas that we're doing zazen with. That's a little bit of what I mean. And other things I mean I've been talking about for a while, and other things I mean I will say later. But basically it's zazen is not what I'm doing by myself at the cushion. Zazen is... the same practice of me and you. Zazen is the same practice of you and everybody.

[51:25]

That's Zazen. And that's face-to-face transmission, is how you are practicing together with everybody, including your personal effort. Thank you. And what would you say... to Uchiyama when he when he says that Zazen is the only true teacher he says what would I say to Uchiyama saying Zazen is the only true teacher I would say I agree Zazen is you could say the only true teaching but you could also say Zazen is the storehouse of all true teaching. It's the shobo genzo. It's the storehouse of dharma eyes. That's what zazen is. And it's not just the storehouse of true teachings, it's the transmission of the true teachings.

[52:30]

So the true teachings, which are zazen, are not just them sitting there in a treasure store, it's the transmission of them. So Zazen is the true teaching, and the true teaching is the transmission of the true teaching. So I would agree with him, and I'm expanding the teaching into being not just a teaching over there, but the teaching as it's being shared and lived together with the whole universe. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you for your face. Reverend Sir.

[53:48]

Roshi. Where did you get your haircut? I'm not sure. It was a while ago. It was a while, seven years ago. I'm so full of hope. What should I do? When you exhale, you know, give the exhale completely so you can inhale completely. Yeah. Then you'll be able to, I would say, endure being so full of hope. Can hope be a companion of awakening? Well, you know, Part of the word hope means to wish for something.

[54:56]

But another part of the word hope, which I have a problem with, is to expect something. Because I am a normal human being, I pick up language habits from people. So I often say, I hope you're well. But I try to let go of that and say, I want you to be well. I wish that you're well. So when people are sick, I say, I pray for your good health. I don't say I hope for it. Because I don't expect people to be healthy. I want them to be healthy. So actually, I'm full of hope. No. I'm full of wishing. I'm full of praying. But I don't expect that what I pray is going to come. Even though I believe it will. Show me a gesture without expectation. There it is right there. No, no, that's yours. Wait, are you showing me?

[55:59]

I guess so. Why, thank you. You gave me a gift I wasn't even asking for. It's amazing. Thank you. Now you're giving me some more. It's so nice of you. Gesture upon gesture, bestowing upon me. Yeah. Welcome.

[57:09]

I really appreciated your story about Miao Xin. And... It's not Miao. Miao Xin. Mo. Mo Xin. Mo Shan. Mo Shan. Mo Shan. Miao Xin is that other teacher who was studying with Yang Shan. Is that what you're talking about? No. With the 17 guys. Yeah. That's Miao... Shin. This is Moshan. Moshan. Moshan, yeah. Moshan Liao Ran. Liao Ran. Moshan Liao Ran. And you appreciate the story? Yes. Okay, great. And it's hard to understand. It's hard to understand. I appreciate some commentary. And any particular point? I think towards the end of this story, with the hat. Can you take off the hat?

[58:12]

Yeah, that portion I'd like a little commentary on. The hat business. Yeah. Well, anyway, he comes in with his hat on usually when you go visit a teacher. When you come into the room, usually you take your hat off. But there's a number of Zen stories where the person doesn't take their hat off. It's a kind of I'm resisting you gesture. I don't know if you deserve my respect gesture. Anyway, he comes in with his hat on and she doesn't say, take this guy out of here. She lets him come in a little bit disrespectfully. He doesn't come in right away and bow to her. Even though he's just come to her monastery. So usually you go to somebody's monastery, you go visit the teacher, you bow. Some kind of gesture of respect. He comes in with his hat on, and she doesn't say right away about the hat. She starts by saying, where do you come from? And he tells her.

[59:16]

And she says, why don't you take your hat off? And he doesn't say anything. So basically, it looks like he's resisting submitting to being respectful to this teacher. He's checking her out, but not sure if he's ready to bow down. this teacher. His teacher is kind of like Dharma cousin. That's how I understand not taking the hat off in this case. And she asks him, why don't you take it off? She doesn't say, get out of here, you disrespectful monk. She doesn't say, attendants, drag this guy out of here, she says. Why don't you take the hat off? And then he doesn't say anything. He's thinking about it. He's looking at himself. And then he says, okay.

[60:27]

He's getting more ready for the meeting. And not the meeting with somebody less than him. Somebody that he can bow down to. Bow down, not so much to the person, but to the meeting. Bow down to face-to-face transmission. That's what I would say is going on at that point. And then he's ready and he bows and takes his hat off. And then, now, he's going to really interact with her, but from a position of respect. So he says, what is Moshan? That's one understanding. Do you have another one of what's going on with the hat? So that's sort of, it looks like resistance. Resistance is something that he really, that's very important to him.

[61:27]

But again, the way he approached the monastery was, you know, if there's somebody worthy here, I'll stay. He was actually considering the possibility there might be somebody worthy there. to be with for a while. Because he knew this person was his teacher's cousin. He was, you know, recognized there was a teacher there, but he wasn't ready to really open his heart to this teacher. And the rest of the story, you have a commentary on... A commentary on the rest? Yeah, he says, so what is Moshan? What is this thing? What is this monastery? What is this person? What is reality? And she says, its summit is not revealed. The summit of reality is invisible. You can't get a hold of it. That's what she's saying.

[62:29]

And then he said, well, who's inside this mountain that the summit of which has not been revealed? And then she tells him, which now she says, it's beyond the form of male and female. It's not me a woman, you a man. It's beyond that. This mosh on here, this meeting, is beyond my form and your form. And he's probing. He says, well, why doesn't it change itself? Why is it like, why does it appear this way or that way? Well, he already said it doesn't. But he's also saying, well, if it's beyond that, why can't it just change? Why don't you just change into a man for me? You know, do a little transformation for me.

[63:31]

Let Moashon, which is beyond female, change you into a male. Or change me into a female. come on, let's do something here. Make me pretty. And she says, I'm not a fox spirit. Fox spirit means somebody who like, who, the fox spirit is like somebody who says that when you're a Zen master, you don't fall into cause and effect. You're, you know, You're beyond cause and effect. I'm not that kind of person. I'm not trying to get out of karmic causation. I'm not trying to be something other than like a woman who's an abbess who's talking to you. I'm not, you know, I will change, but I'm not like trying to be something else. And then he says, oh, okay, thank you.

[64:39]

He opens. and happily stays with her for three years. For three more years of face-to-face transmission with her. And he's now a male in a monastery. I don't know if there's other men in her monastery. I don't know how that works. Maybe that's why he was the gardener, because he couldn't be in the female monk's hall. So maybe he was living outside the monk's hall you know, in the garden there someplace. So he could be near the monastery even though he couldn't be a matriculated nun. Thank you. You're welcome. If you came to meet me again someday,

[65:41]

and asked me for, did you say interpretation of the story? I might be able to make another one, and then again another one, and another one, and another one, and another one. That was just today's story. Okay? You're welcome. Is there someone lurking back there? Uh-huh. You look like a dragon. One second, please.

[66:41]

I hear these stories and then I wonder what brings people to take these long journeys to find this answer, non-answer, non-ground. And when I think about the stories that I've heard of some of the women practitioners, and I don't know if it's Moshan. I would be very curious to hear the story of how she actually was able to earned the privilege of meeting a teacher. Some of these women, there are stories about, like Hueca, women who had to disfigure themselves in order to reach the end of suffering through this kind of interaction. And somehow I, maybe I just completely miss

[68:05]

interactions and satisfy that. You miss how the stories of these interactions satisfy what the person came for? Yeah. Well, in the story I just told you about, in this current story, Jir Shien missed how the interaction was satisfying. He missed it, but he kept at it. He came to the monastery. He didn't immediately feel satisfied. Do you understand? He came to the monastery and he said, if there's somebody worthy here, I'll stay here. He wasn't satisfied. He had been satisfied with Lin Ji. In that meeting, he was satisfied. That was a happy, satisfying... He said later, that was nourishing.

[69:16]

That meeting was nourishing. But he said also, I got half a ladle from Papa Linji. He wanted another half ladle. So he traveled and went to this other monastery. And he said, if there's somebody worthy here, I'll stay here. He was still not fully satisfied. even though he did have a good lunch at Linji's place. He had a hunger, which wasn't fully satisfied, even with that great teacher. So he went to another great teacher. And when he arrived, he's basically saying, I'm hungry, and if there's somebody here worthy, I'll stay here and eat here. And then he walks in, but actually his mouth is kind of shut.

[70:21]

His throat is tight. So even when he meets her, he still isn't satisfied. And they interact. And he hangs in there with her, and she hangs in there with him. And by that process, that effort, his throat opens, and he receives the nourishment. that he's been yearning for. And then later he said, with what I received from the two of them, now I'm fully satisfied. But as the story progresses, he wasn't fully satisfied, then he was. What is satisfied? Reality is satisfied. Reality is the whole universe is meeting itself as you. And if you don't accept that, you're going to be hungry for what you are.

[71:27]

You're going to be hungry for your position, your true position, which is where you are. But if you resist your position, then you're just going to keep being hungry and stressed because you don't accept that the universe is meeting itself through you right here, not someplace else. What is the experience of accepting? What is that, accepting? It's nothing in itself. although it's nothing in itself, it's not trying to be someplace else. Or, if it's trying to be someplace else, it's doing it so fully that trying to be somewhere else drops off. Your body and mind are released. You're not trying to control what's going on now.

[72:32]

You're just responding to the calls of the world. You're not trying to shut them up or get them to talk louder. You're fully settled here. But what that is is nothing in itself. It's just you are fully settled and body and mind has dropped off and you are meeting the whole universe with no resistance. But that's not something. Transmission, there's nothing like there being transmitted. It's just like you're not someplace else. You've given up being someplace else. You're here, and then you're here, and then you're here. And you have no plans of escape. Or if there's any plans of escape, they're given away. They're released. And if there's any plans to be here, they're released too.

[73:35]

You don't need a plan to be here. Seems like there's an awful lot to manage to be here. It is. It's the whole universe. But you're not managing it like controlling it. You're tolerating it. You're enduring this universal pressure on you to make you here. You're accepting the entire field of experience, meeting the entire field of experience in this way. You're learning to accept that. And you have a mind which says, I think I'd like a slightly less intense life. Yeah. But again, that can be accepted, that you want something less intense. I just thought of this woman who told me she was really depressed and she was working in her garden down in the dirt and suddenly she realized that the plants were green and the sky was blue, etc.

[74:56]

She accepted being there and life came alive again. But it's hard to accept being depressed and not try to get away from it. To be wholehearted about being depressed is not easy. But when you're wholeheartedly depressed, you give up trying to control your depression and body and mind drop off and the plants are green. and the sky is blue, and you're alive. But we have to train to do that wholeheart deadly. Thank you so much. You're welcome. That was two.

[76:12]

Did I get one extra or did I get one short? That wasn't my experience of dropping body and mind. The experience of dropping body and mind allowed the appropriate response.

[77:25]

When body and mind drops off, that experience allows you to reach out and turn the fire on the stove off, or it allows you to take a glass of water and drink, or it allows you to say, thank you so much, bye-bye. So that was not face-to-face? It was face-to-face transmission, yes. But before that, before I heard, I love you, Rebbe, I was resisting meeting this situation. Mr. Green side. Mr. Green got it? The face-to-face transmission because two-face. He was there. But it wasn't just him. It was also... How do I know? Well, I think it may be difficult to know because it was many years ago. I don't know if Mr. Green will remember.

[78:27]

We don't have Mr. Green there. That's why we reenact these stories. And then we ask questions of people who aren't here anymore. So I can say to Mr. Green, when you were there and he said goodbye, what did you experience? And he might say, yeah, I was compulsively talking because I was afraid that if I stopped talking, something terrible would happen. And then he said, thank you very much, and I felt released. for my compulsive talk. It was so wonderful. I'm just telling you, that's the story today. That's the story. You can tell another story. The thing about face-to-face transmission is, like other things, all explanations of what's happening are equally valid

[79:31]

face-to-face transmission, one side satisfies, oh, my body and mind drop away, but other side, what? Yeah, well, that's these stories. The slap and I don't get it kind of. Yeah, Wang Bo is dropping off body and mind, and from his dropped off body and mind. But Linji didn't get it. Right. But from his dropped off body and mind, he gives Linji something. When your body and mind drops off, then you are constantly giving people gifts. When your body and mind drops off, you're listening to people. When your body and mind drops off, you listen. And when you listen, you respond. And you're enjoying that. Mongbo's enjoying. Here he comes. But before that, here he comes. He's asking me a question. I give him an answer. He asked me a question. I give him an answer.

[80:35]

He's enjoying this. He's loving this boy. He loves this boy who is now asking him, please give me a gift. And from his dropped off body and mind, he gives a gift. But the boy is having trouble with the gift. So the boy finally says, that's enough for me. And he accepts that. And gives him the gift of letting him go. But gives him another gift. of suggesting some place to go. From his drop-drop body and mind, or from the drop-drop body and mind, Wang Bo is just giving gifts, giving gifts, giving gifts, in response to the calls of the world. So the previous interaction question that accepting is just a... dropping body and mind, it's not a suggestion two people, whatever happened, just take it, but the two people are... intention of giving gifts to each other then dropping body and mind happen or two people giving gifts to each other wholeheartedly body and mind drops off that is body and mind dropped off but Lin Ji looks like from the story he did not understand that he was giving Wang Bo a gift looks like he didn't get that

[82:00]

I'm giving the teacher a gift and now the teacher's giving me a gift. He didn't understand that. Then later he saw, oh yeah, I was giving him a gift and he's giving me a gift. So then he went back and he gave Wang Bo gifts. Amazing gifts and Wang Bo happily accepted them. It was very generous. At the beginning of the story, Linji doesn't even think, I want to go give Wang Bo a present. He doesn't think that. He says, I'm fine, I don't need to go give the teacher a present. A gift of me? He doesn't need me. I don't need him. This is not true, but people think like that. People think, oh, that person doesn't need me, and I don't need them. I'm fine. That's the beginning of the story. Then a great teacher comes up to him and says, why don't you go and give the teacher a gift? And then Jesus says, well, I'm fine. He said, you should go give him a gift. What should I give him? Ask him a Zen question.

[83:03]

He likes them. So then he goes and asks his Zen question. He gives the teacher a gift. But he didn't maybe understand, I'm going to give the teacher a gift. Right? We're always giving a gift. we're always giving a gift. We're always giving a gift. But if you don't think you're giving a gift, then you're not on the gift-giving boat. You're on the land, watching the gift-giving boat go off into this ocean. You have to get on the gift-giving process. Even if there's something mean to the person, can be that it's a gift gift? Well, that's what the story's about. Juan Bo is doing something, that Linji doesn't think is a gift.

[84:05]

He's not... What? Wangbo knew he was giving a gift. Wangbo knew, yeah. But Linji didn't. But if I don't know, I'm giving a gift just to say mean things. It's not going to be a gift then. No, it's still a gift. You're just blind. You're blind. Wangbo didn't think Linji wasn't giving him a gift. Wang Bo says, here comes a gift. He's the Zen master. When the people come to him, he knows, oh, here comes a gift. Oh, wow, here's the gift. What's it going to be? Another stupid question? But that's a gift that's coming. Student comes and says, you know, somebody put me up to this. I don't really want to ask you. The teacher's kind of like, okay, let's have it. So Wang Bo's sitting there. dropped off body and mind, the next person that comes is going to get a gift, whoever it is.

[85:07]

Well, here he comes. Now, here's his gift. What is the quintessential meaning of the true Dharma? That's the gift. Does Linji understand he's giving a gift? It doesn't look like it. Looks like he thinks, I'm just asking him what Mujiro told me to ask. It's not like, I'm going to give Wangbo a gift. if you wholeheartedly give somebody a gift, you will understand that what they respond to you is a gift. One day I was in China. And I was, it was the morning. I was in a hotel. And I was going to, I was walking out the door of my room to go visit the monastery of the sixth ancestor. And as I walked out the door, my wife said, you're going to meet your ancestor.

[86:08]

And the tears started flowing. And then I got to the monastery, and when I walked through the gate, I was going to meet my ancestor. I was going to meet my ancestor. I didn't know what my ancestor was due, but I was going to give myself... to this ancestor and I walked in there and I just cried and cried and I bowed and I bowed and I bowed and what happened there all was a gift to me. I gave myself to the ancestor and the ancestor gave herself to me. If I go to visit Wang Bo and I'm not giving a gift, then I might not see that Wang Bo is giving me a gift. It looks like Linji did not understand. Even a great teacher like that did not understand that everything we do is a gift. That we're giving and it's being given to us.

[87:11]

The whole universe gives this and this gives to the whole universe. That's reality, I say. But if I don't say this is a gift to you, I miss it. that you're a gift to me. But Wang Bo's the master. He's trained. He knows he's a gift all day long. He knows that everybody that comes to him is the gift now. And then he responds in that space and gives gifts. And he doesn't control the gift that's been given. He doesn't always hit people. But he made me see, oh, here's a gift. And the gift is, this monk is coming to me and this monk does not think she's giving me a gift. That's the kind of monk it is. So I'll give a gift that would be appropriate for somebody who thinks they're not giving me a gift. If they are thinking they're giving me a gift, then I'll give a different response.

[88:16]

But not because I'm thinking of it, but I will naturally respond according to the gift they give me. If they give me a gift, A diamond, I can hold it in one hand. If they give me a boulder, I need help. Depending on what they give, my response will be different. But I always will be receiving gifts and responding. I will always give my gift. That's always the case. The question is, do we join it? The nature of wind is permanent and there's no place it doesn't reach. Why do you fan yourself? The nature of generosity is permanent. It's always the case, and there's no place it doesn't reach. But if we don't practice generosity, even though it reaches us already, we don't realize it. a really long time ago.

[90:19]

I never even heard it. Are you giving a gift right now? Thank you. Did you hear that? She said, last week I asked her, have you eaten? In Chinese, when someone meets you, when you go to their house, instead of saying, how are you, they say, have you eaten? So I asked Kika, have you eaten?

[91:21]

experience for me to feel awkward. Oh, there was a gift that I didn't open up right there and enjoy. I enjoy it later. Yeah. If you hesitate, you fall into retrospective regret. Tell me more about that, because I think that's part of my retros. Yeah, so we're training to learn how not to hesitate to receive the gift. To be... What? Yeah, mindfulness. Mindfulness, the basic meaning of the word sati or smriti is remember. So remember to be mindful. Remember to be here to receive the gift. Remember to be here to receive the gift. Remember to be tuned in to the giving practice of reality. to the generous process of creation learn to do that then there will be then we won't be hesitating we'll be in the mode and when the thing comes we can say thank you very much or not but just feel like thank you very much everybody we meet we give and we receive and

[93:01]

being mindful of giving, of that process, it's our practice. Just to walk around remembering I'm giving and I'm receiving. I'm giving to the universe, I'm receiving the universe. And then I'm not going to keep missing noticing that the pebbles on the ground are gifts to me. In my first practice period, it was raining all the time, almost all the time. And those pebbles were like... And so when it's raining, you don't necessarily look up and get rain in your eyes. So I looked down almost the whole practice period when I was outside. And I was walking through fields of jewels, giving them to me. But I gave to them. I gave them my eyes. I gave them my life. And they gave me...

[94:02]

They gave me beautiful colors. Did you say aware of the breath in the belly? Yeah. I give my attention to the breath in the belly. I receive the gift of a belly, of a body. of a breath. I receive the gift of my breath and I give myself to my breathing. We're close friends. We're giving to each other, breath and I, body and I. My breath isn't trying to control me. My body isn't trying to control me. It does make requests of me, but it's not trying to control me. It's just saying, would you please sit down? Would you please stand up? Would you please eat? would you please go to the toilet? It's calling to me.

[95:04]

It's giving me information. I'm receiving it. I'm calling to it. Would you please stand up? Would you please sit down? Would you please go to the bathroom? We're doing this together, giving to each other all day long. We need to train to tune in to that fully intense, generous life, which there's no pause in it. with yourself all the time no positive positive no we all are that way all the time but if we don't train ourselves to join it it's like we think we're there sometimes I think I'm there sometimes yeah if you hesitate to be there then it's like it's almost like you're not and then you say well I missed my chance but now that I say I missed my chance I'm not missing this chance I'm fully here being generously saying I missed my chance I'm with it I'm in it. So for the rest of seshin, we're all going to be giving ourselves to the seshin, and we're going to be receiving the gift of seshin.

[96:14]

That's going to happen for the rest of the seshin. And the whole universe is supporting this, and we're training to try to be present and not get distracted from the full intensity of our life. For more information, visit SSCC.org and click Giving.

[96:53]

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