As an assembly, we'll begin with the opening verses, which you'll see now in your chat window. An unsurpassed, penetrating and perfect dharma is rarely met with, even in a hundred thousand million kalpa, having it to see and listen to to remember and accept. I vow to taste the truth of the Tathagata's words. Good morning, everyone. Thank you to the Tanto, Mary, for inviting me to speak this morning. I will be speaking to the topic of the online practice period on Lojang mind training.

[01:08]

And the second point, the second of the seven points, which is called the main practice, which has two parts, absolute bodhicitta and relative bodhicitta. And today I want to bring up the five slogans of absolute bodhicitta. and in kind of relation or in conversation with Zen practice. And bodhicitta, bodhi is awake, citta is mind, so awake in heart, awake in mind. Sometimes we hear that bodhicitta is the mind that seeks liberation, the mind that seeks awakening, the basic impulse that brings us to practice. And ultimately, This mind that seeks awakening seeks awakening for all. So ultimately it's compassionate or it's compassion and it's all-embracing.

[02:11]

It's the heart that wants to actualize the fullness of reality, the fullness of the truth of our lives together with all beings. And so this absolute bodhicitta, it could refer to our basic nature, our true nature, all-pervading, always available. And as compassion, you could say ultimate compassion, absolute bodhicitta could be a compassion that's totally unbounded or unbiased, all-inclusive. Compassion that's of the wisdom of no separation. Open on all sides. And so absolute bodhicitta is the first half of the main practice, the second point.

[03:16]

And the other half is this relative bodhicitta. And relative bodhicitta gets into how does awakening and compassion actually manifest through our individual everyday lives, our experiences, our feelings, our expression and manifestation. And so the work of relative bodhicitta is how this unbounded compassion of absolute bodhicitta lives through the myriad particularities of our lives, our hearts, minds, hands and eyes. And maybe we could say absolute bodhicitta is like loving everyone, opening our heart to all beings. And relative bodhicitta is how, you know, do we respond in this moment to this person, to whoever we're with?

[04:17]

And absolute and relative can sound hierarchical. But there, you know, in our teaching, they're they're so deeply intertwined and inseparable we we can't say one is more important or more real than the other and so i want to look at these um these slogans of absolute bodhicitta in relation to the practice of zazen and some of dogan's teachings and with a particular emphasis on dynamic inquiry And when we look at Dogen, we find a deep, vigorous sense of questioning, inquiry, and investigation. And so I kind of want to bring that forth as part of our practice. And the inquiry of Zazen is challenging our grasping in all its forms, challenging our limited views,

[05:26]

And it's turning around and challenging our understanding of Zazen and how we grasp a sense of being separate. And part of why it's important to practice together is it's hard to maintain the dynamic challenge of this inquiry on our own. So we need help. We need conversation, relationship. This inquiry works at the limits and beyond the limits of what we can know, what we can experience, what we can feel, what we can express. And so inquiring is a vital part of Zazen. Zazen is constantly inquiring into what is Zazen. is the whole being of this moment, which is totally ungraspable.

[06:32]

And zazen is the activity of the whole being of this moment, inquiring into how the whole being of this moment lives in our particular life. So Dogen says, study the world at the very moment of sitting. Is it vertical or horizontal? At the very moment of sitting, what is sitting? Is it an acrobat's graceful somersaults or the rapid darting of a fish? Is it thinking or not thinking? Is it doing or not doing? Is it sitting within sitting? Is it sitting within body-mind? Is it sitting, letting go of sitting within sitting? or letting go of sitting within body-mind. Investigate this in every possible way.

[07:33]

And I would offer that this is not really like a quiz. And these are not like yes, no, or multiple choice questions. Like, oh yes, yes, no, yes, be. It's, Zazen can't be reduced like that. And Dovin's not looking for answers or solutions. This is inquiry. These questions are engaging Zazen. And the point is not to find the answers, but to open to a deeper actualization of just being this person, this moment, the total relational happening of this. And so this inquiry is not something we use, not something we're using to get something. where we engage the inquiry to open, to open us. And so one of the questions in there is, is it thinking or not thinking?

[08:38]

You know, in Dogen's instructions for Zazen, he also says, think not thinking. What is think not thinking? Non-thinking. This is the essential art of Zazen. So this is Dogen, teaching us about inquiring into thinking. And it's not trying to get rid of thinking. It's not getting involved in our thinking or lost in our thinking. It's an inquiry. It's an investigation. And it's dynamic. It's inquiring through thinking. It's inquiring beyond thinking. It's inquiring into Buddhist thinking. When there's grasping, It's my thinking and it establishes me. When the grasping releases, it's the thinking of this moment. It's just part of the totality of what's happening.

[09:41]

There's no problem. And this is like non-thinking or realized thinking. And that embraces thinking and not thinking and their opposition and not getting caught. So this non-thinking is lively. It's turning. It's dynamic. It's a non-grasping intimacy. So our inquiry, when I bring up inquiry, it can include forms of thinking or bringing up a question, like these questions Dogen offers us. But the inquiry is not limited to thinking. It's a more basic energy or quality of presence. And it's just the questioning. It's curious, and its basic gesture is opening.

[10:46]

And this genuine inquiry, it's creative, and it's exploratory in that it doesn't know what it's inquiring into. It doesn't know what it's inquiring It's actually inquiring rather than seeking, trying to get somewhere or get something that it knows what it's trying to get. And it's dynamic. It's alive. And it opens through or across any way we try to limit it or direct it. For centuries, Soto Zen practices here and there have been criticized for sounding passive, sounding quietest or static. And I think this can be a real pitfall in our practice. And so inquiry is a way to bring out some of the vital dynamism or working of Zazen.

[11:53]

To completely be this moment, is itself a process of creative inquiry, exploring, feeling, opening through all the ways we're not completely this moment. So how be here completely? What is it to fully feel and allow this person to be this person? Can I feel this? And so inquiry and curiosity live at the edge of what we can allow, at the edge of our capacity to see, to meet what's happening fully, and respond wholeheartedly. Becoming calm, settling into our experience, a kind of doing nothing, developing a pure receptivity,

[12:55]

This can all be a part of our practice. But if our zazen is only calming down, it could become passive, escapist, non-transformative. And how does that function in actually meeting the challenges of our life, not just trying to get away from them? And I would say the world does not need a static or insulated piece. the world needs a piece that can engage that has a living function so um the slogans i'm going to go through these five slogans of absolute bodhicitta um so they are regard all dharmas as dreams Examine the nature of unborn awareness. Self-liberate even the antidote.

[14:00]

Rest in the nature of alaya, the essence. And in post-meditation, be a child of illusion. And so I want to explore these slogans in terms of how we can allow them to grow into our life and practice. And I want to approach each one as inquiry. so regard all dharmas as dreams as inquiry examine the nature of unborn awareness as inquiry self liberate even the antidote as inquiry so um so starting with regard all dharmas as dreams or look at all experience as a dream or see everything as a dream see all things as dreams So whatever is happening, how is it a dream? How is it to regard all things we see, hear, feel, taste, value, believe as dreams?

[15:09]

What is this about? How is it true? How is it not true? How does it live? This slogan is addressing a basic a process of delusion. And that is that part of everything we experience is an appearance of reality, a quality of existence or own being, a quality of something existing on its own or separately. And the basic problem we have is we grasp this appearance as reality, and then it becomes our reality. Through our grasping, our story of what's happening becomes a reality. We see a circle of water, and we feel like we know the whole ocean. Our particular views, our opinions, our ideas, they feel unlocated.

[16:18]

They seem objective. We don't see the layers of conditioning and context. They go into everything we think and feel and know. So this appearance of reality, this appearance of separation is kind of like a dream. And so I think it's important to clarify that, you know, when I hear this regard all dharmas as dreams, regard all things as dreams, I don't think it's saying that our experience is wholly a dream. but just to release our grasp and with this appearance of separation as real. So it's inquiring to how we make a world that seems like it's out there, a world of separate things. And so this is not to grasp things as unreal. And so in this meditation or inquiry, this is a intimacy.

[17:24]

And in that intimacy, that arises from releasing the grasping, things become more vivid, not less vivid. And if things start seeing I'm real, I would say that we should let go of this slogan and go back to the training and the preliminaries, the first point. And that's about grounding in what's real or what feels real. that's that's that's vital ground for our practice so the the training that preliminaries has deeply appreciating the preciousness of life the inevitability of death that everything we do is impactful and then being in touch with and being kind with our suffering our pain our fear our vulnerability And then this is our ground. This is the medium of dynamic inquiry. So our freedom opens through what's real, through being grounded in this right here, the stuff of our life.

[18:35]

If contemplating the dream takes us away from that, give up the contemplation and come back here. So looking at experience as a dream is not meant to flip us over. from grasping existence to grasping non-existence. It's releasing the grasping. The dream is just that we're not living in a world of separation. That, you know, that all we see and know is a circle of water, but everything we meet is an ocean. So Dogen says, study the world at the very moment of sitting. Study grasping at the very moment of sitting. How are we grasping? What are we grasping? Is this a dream? How is this a dream? And our patterns of grasping are vigorous.

[19:39]

They're flexible and they're dynamic and always turning. So awakened inquiry Our practice of inquiry needs to be flexible, vigorous, dynamic, always turning. As soon as our inquiry gets static, grasping asserts itself. It's persistent. And the spirit of inquiry is not trying to defeat or struggle with grasping. That would be grasping. I could say intimate, Becoming intimate with the grasping is how the grasping releases. And this inquiry and exploration embraces our whole life. So everything is welcome in Zazen. Zazen is not static. And it's always awake to what's happening in each moment.

[20:45]

Whatever's happening is incorporated, it's woven into the dream, into the inquiry, into our lives. So Zazenitz has this constant working, a constant weaving, an all-embracing activity, a total dynamic working. And you could say it's like a loom and shuttle running continuously, always all-inclusively weaving in the new life of this moment. So dynamic, opening, allowing for greater complexity, allowing for a greater fullness of this life. So the next slogan is examine the nature of unborn awareness. And this is usually explained in terms of extending the inquiry of the previous slogan to awareness itself. the nature of mind, our sense that there's someone who's experiencing the dream and what is happening.

[21:56]

And so this is part of inquiring into the dream and releasing and grasping. Who is inquiring? Are we inquiring into the dream or dreaming of inquiring? And how do we make a self? How do we feel separate? How do we make that a reality? So looking directly at the self, our sense of being a solid I or me, some unchanging essence here, a me that experiences a world over there. And when we examine this, when we take this up in our wholehearted inquiry, We don't find us separately. We don't find things out there. We find a boundless relationship. Dogen says, learn the backward step that turns your light inwardly to illuminate yourself.

[23:00]

And to study the self is to forget the self. And so when we're saying inquire and study, regard, look, examine, observed and these can sound like uh something a self does they could sound kind of dualistic like there's a subject and an object and uh but in our practice these this is intimate study intimate inquiry intimate investigation and the study and the inquiry investigation uh feel through dualistic grasping and so as we become intimate with grasping it releases and as it releases we become more intimate the next slogan is self liberate even the antidote or even the remedy releases naturally or don't get stuck on peace

[24:11]

So what's the antidote? What's the remedy? So sometimes they say, well, the previous two slogans, the ones we just talked about. But we could extend this maybe to all the slogans. And so I'm working with these slogans, any slogans, and working with any teachings on the life and practice of grasping. We don't want to start grasping and clinging to these teachings. Norman Fisher says that this slogan means, forget the last two slogans. We self-liberate the grasping by inquiring into the grasping and feeling it fully all the way through. That's how grasping opens. Liberating grasping is not something we do. It just unfolds in wholeheartedness.

[25:14]

And so self-liberate means we trust in presence. We trust in inquiry, in fully being here. And we do engage teachings. They guide us and they help us, but if we hold on to them, we get stuck. So there's no formula we can rely on Teaching can help us for a time. But if we try to rely on the teaching, if we try to repeat it over and over, we'll kill it. If we build a nest in it, it loses its life. Because it's about release. And so we can't rely on teachings like that. We need to... care for a constant liveliness in our practice. Another way of hearing this slogan is that it relates to what we open to through practice.

[26:25]

So engaging with a genuine sense of inquiry, we can open and we open to something. We open to some illumination, some freedom, some awakening. grasping to what we open through practice is a kind of zen sickness. You know, we can't actually grasp awakening or emptiness or freedom. But grasping is dynamic, and it feels like we could. And the patterns are so deep that as soon as we open, in the background, A dualistic frame of apprehension is like sneaking around and trying to get it. So it's a grasping as a deep and evolving process and it pervades our thoughts, our feelings, our identity.

[27:27]

So that's, you know, we need to keep meeting it, keep feeling it out and don't cling to peace. Don't cling to openness, to wisdom, insight, awakening. How we actually take care of the opening and insight and awakening is we let it go. And this is part of the diamondism of inquiry. It keeps inquiring beyond what it opens into. So awakening is just another dharma gate. It's nourishing, it's helpful, and we keep looking. As soon as we grasp it, we're caught in a dream. And it could be a wonderful dream, but it can become a kind of poison. So Dogen says, going beyond Buddha.

[28:29]

And getting stuck in peace has no living function in the world. We need an active peace. an unstuck peace, a responsive freedom, an awakening that engages the hard stuff of our life, that faces it and meets it. And so there's no abiding in the practice, no abiding in freedom or liberation or awakening. There's no stopping. So the next slogan is rest in the nature of alaya, the essence, the essence of the path, rest in the nature of all experience, rest in the openness of mind, or you could just say rest in Buddha nature. So what is this resting? Part of resting in our true nature is there's no grasping or apprehending true nature.

[29:39]

There's no making it happen. There's no manipulating it. Resting is a gesture of non-grasping. It's giving up trying to control anything and fully being this moment. And we could also talk about this resting as a kind of trust or faith or confidence or a kind of ease or joy. Dovan says zazen is the dharma gate of repose and bliss. And so we're relating to this truth of non-separation, our truth, our basic truth. We're completely relational beings. Inquiry opens this trust, and this trust opens inquiry.

[30:40]

Inquiry opens and trust is opening. Trust is how we rest. It's the joy and ease of non-graspingly living from our heart of non-separation. And we don't use inquiry to make Zazen happen. There's no pushing or pulling in the inquiry. And, you know, Still, this resting, this trusting, this faith in Buddha nature is not to become passive. And in part because the true nature is not a passive thing. What we're resting in is not something static. It's not a thing. It's an ungraspable truth of total relationality living through a human heart. So it's always dynamic. It's always unfolding. So a key point for Dogon is practice based on awakening.

[31:52]

Zazen with faith or confidence in our true nature. And so from our initial impulse to practice, sit as an expression of awakening. We don't sit to make awakening or attain awakening. Sitting as the life of awakening. It's kind of resting. And we seek awakening. We do seek freedom. Because in some level, we know our true nature is awakening. Our initial seeking is like a spark of inquiry, which we want to take care of and grow into a big, big fire. You know, the core of our suffering is we have this life. We're living a life, living a world based on this grasping, this dream of separation.

[32:55]

And part of why this is so deeply uncomfortable and unfun and... isolating and alienating is that our actual being is not separate so this you know living in that dream is out of accord with the reality of our lives and this sparks seeking this is a natural seeking an inmost request and then part of what can go awry is grasping can get involved with this basic seeking and it imposes a frame of separation It says, like, okay, I'm here. Awakening is somewhere separate. And so now I'm going to do what I have to do to get from here to that thing out there. And then that's practice based on delusion. Practice enacting grasping. So Dogen's emphasis on practice based on realization can address this, eat this.

[34:01]

And it's not so much that we inquire into awakening, but resting in our true nature is resting in awakening, inquiring into the actualization of awakening. Our true nature inquiring into how does this true nature live in our life, in our felt, manifest, responsive, expressive lives. So we attend to this flame of inquiry. and curiosity. And any gaining idea misses the fullness of this moment and misapprehends the real point of inquiry. So this resting itself is a dynamic opening. Or you could say a growing patience with or capacity to allow the fullness, the all inclusiveness, the constantly self liberating dynamism of our life as non-separation.

[35:03]

Absolute bodhicitta. So as a gesture of practice, inquiry is an expression of our true nature. Whole being inquiring into whole being. So the last of these five slogans is in post-meditation, be a child of illusion. or in daily life be a child of illusion. And so this is inquiring into how absolute bodhicitta and the dynamic inquiry of zazen live in our lives, in our daily activities. All engagement with these slogans is ultimately about affirming our total engagement in worldly relational life. So being a child of illusion means our practice is about how we give ourselves to this world, how we give ourselves unreservedly to being this particular person, fully allowing what's manifesting here, including our pains, our problems, our limitations.

[36:23]

Any aversion to engaging in the world of deluded appearances, manifests a lack of realization being a child of illusion is completely entering and living and functioning in our lives just as it appears while attending to a flame of inquiry and this being a child of illusion speaks of um you know loving the world loving the world without reservation you know a quality of um devotion a deep sense of belonging. Being a child of illusion is being totally at home, an illusion. And letting go of impulses to be even a little bit separate from this world, a little bit separate from this life, a little bit separate from doing the dishes. This moment of our life, this delusion, this pain,

[37:32]

These particular circumstances, we embrace this as our home. And this is exactly what we're here for. There isn't some other life or some other place where we could be that's actually what we're here for. It's for these circumstances. A bodhisattva is a child of samsara. Absolute bodhicitta is diving into the world of suffering with no holding back. And this is a path of loving fully. Dogen talks about expounding a dream within a dream. And so I hear them, actualizing or realizing our life and all things we experience and know as a dream. And it's not being passive in the dream. It's expounding. It's a realisational practice.

[38:34]

It's actively and dynamically expounding and exerting the dream, inquiring into and investigating the illusion and opening to our whole life. So our life and this world are pouring through our hands. It's totally impermanent. And so we're a child of impermanence. And even as a child of impermanence, it hurts. So we're a child of impermanence, a child of loss, a child of mortality. And in the midst of being a child of impermanence and loss and illusion, to be curious, totally alive in the middle of illusion, impermanence, and loss. Eyes wide open, imagination fully engaged.

[39:36]

Asking lots of questions. A child, you know, always learning, always groaning, tending the flame of inquiry. A student, a student of the dream of separation. A student of grasping and all the ways grasping unfolds. So for me, this slogan kind of opens from absolute bodhicitta into relative bodhicitta and through boundless inquiry into all the points of mind training. And again, we have the absolute and the relative are inseparable, interfused. The absolute invigorates and liberates the relative while the relative grounds and unfolds the absolute and brings it into the world. through our life. Real inquiry involves a kind of comfort with uncertainty.

[40:44]

It appreciates the vitality and possibility and opportunity of uncertainty. And we become interested in what can open at the asking and not how we close with an answer. solution or a resolution so we question and open we question deeper and open deeper question or inquire completely open completely and keep questioning we don't ever get somewhere in practice where the questions And requests of this moment do not need to be met with a fresh sense of presence, aliveness and inquiry. How do we respond to the killing of George?

[41:46]

How do we respond to the systemic racism of which that is a part? And this is where absolute Bodhicitta needs to live and grow through our actions. How do we respond to the individual and collective ethics of caring for life amidst COVID-19? There's a quote from Eric Hoffer I heard. In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists. This practice of inquiry is about how to be a radical learner. And this asks a lot of us. How we show up in each moment matters. And we can feel this as a kind of weight, but it's also a source of endless purpose, endless significance.

[42:57]

Each moment calls for our liveliness. our willingness, our courage, our love, our compassion, our respect, our response. And it's, you know, unending. Always being unfinished is integral to how each of us is irreplaceable. So, you know, there are in this endless inquiry, there are decision points. And actually, in every moment, we are in some way taking a stand. And as we do, it's always in relationship. And so it's always in a flow of inquiry. So thank you very much. So now we can open to

[44:02]

questions and comments. Wonderful. Thank you so much. If you'd like to pose a question or offer a comment, you can find a raise hand button in the participants window and the host will unmute you. Missy Miguel. Hi. Good morning. Morning. I want to say thank you very much for your talk. I really appreciate this. One of the advantages of the Zoom talks is that I get to take a bunch of notes and I can actually relate back to what I just heard. I appreciate you addressing the systemic inequalities in our world, in our society, and relating it back to these points, because this is right now the most challenging part of my practice. the point where it's incredibly frustrating.

[45:06]

How do you remain open to this world, this ceaseless world that is at times hell-bent on hating a person like me for just being me? And the hard part is how do I love that world when that hatred that I take and that vitriol that I bear witness to. It's very hard, especially when I have my nieces and nephews or younger friends ask me, how do you enter this Dharma gate of sickness and racism in this world? And I think for me, the little turning point, especially with your talk, was this whole not sticking to the solution.

[46:11]

So if you could offer any advice to a very, very frustrated practitioner in regards to this, it's like, especially right now, there are multiple protests going on. I have friends out there. It shames me to say that I'm not going to these things because I'm afraid for my health. So I guess, you know, where's the love in this? Well, thank you. Well, the first thing that comes into mind is to be really gentle with yourself. Be really kind and compassionate with yourself. I think we want to love this world, but we need, however we're not loving this world, to meet that with love, to meet that with gentleness, and not hold that over ourselves as something we're lacking.

[47:29]

And I feel humbled by your question. I feel like you had some of the answer there yourself. I feel like the unfinished part of it is really important for us. There's no simple solution. And so we are called moment by moment, day by day. We can't put this aside. And I think our practice is to, in our sitting, it's not getting away from this stuff. It's welcoming it in. And when we welcome it in, when we welcome in the challenges of our life, that are sitting consistent to meet those challenges.

[48:35]

Please take care. Another question or comment. Ah, I see you on here. Hi. Thank you so much for your talk. I have a general question about practice, and you kind of addressed it, but you sparked a lot of questions from me about self-inquiry in practice, and I'm relatively new to the practice. So I'm still learning a lot. But my idea of what practice was, Zen practice is just sitting and approaching it that way.

[49:44]

And I still wrestle with what that means. But yeah, if you could offer some advice on what that means and how to incorporate inquiry into that, I would really appreciate it. I hear it. And just what you said, that wrestling with what it means is part of the inquiry. And so just sitting, just completely being this moment. And for me, that kind of brings up the question of how am I not completely this moment? Where is the holding? Where is the holding back? Or where is the trying to get something out of it? Am I trying to push my way to this moment? Is there anything to push into? You know, so just, I think that, you know, we have an idea of what sitting is, and then we put a just in front of it, but that should make, you know, that's all in quotes, and we're interested in the reality of sitting here, the total reality, and that is ungraspable.

[50:54]

So any way we're grasping it, try to feel that. Any way we're limiting what's happening in this moment, try to feel that limiting and just we feel our way into the grasping and it can release. If we try to fight the grasping, that doesn't work. That's kind of grasping response to grasping. So I think in some ways, you know, what you said is actually what I'm saying, which is we have this, it's a really basic practice, just sitting. But then what that actually, the fullness of that, being ungraspable, it's an endless inquiry. Okay, thank you. Yeah, I never really connected inquiry to sitting and I've read about inquiry practice and I was like, how does this relate? And so, thank you. You're welcome.

[51:56]

Cristina. Thank you, Charlie, very much for your talk. I had a response coming up when I listened to Miguel. And if that's okay, I tried to chat, send it to him by chat, but that's not possible. So I'm saying it here. Please. Miguel, I found your question actually was an expression of love already. It's coming from love. It's coming from wanting to find a way. And love is not the feeling. We often think it's a particular feeling we have to have, but love is basically, or unconditional love, what this practice is aiming for is an attitude.

[52:56]

It's the attitude you just demonstrated of... feeling your frustration, feeling your suffering, and keep questioning and keep trying to understand deeper. So I just wanted to say that back to all of, to you particularly, and it was also nourished by how you spoke, Charlie. So I just wanted to thank you so very much. Thank you. Miguel, you may be muted. Did you want to offer a follow-up? Thank you. Thank you very much, Christina. I love how this all circles back to what we just, the Dharma talk, where seeing love as a static thing, as this force, as this MacGuffin that you get at the end of the quest,

[54:01]

That is, you know, just staying in the peace and solution. But I hadn't thought of expressing this as a form of love. And it makes me laugh because this is what I tell my godchildren. It's like, you can tell me. You can tell me you're frustrated. Go ahead. Use the big keeper words. I'm not going to tell your parents if you drop a couple of that bombs. Tell me how you're frustrated. And I'll continue to hold and pose these questions as a testament of love. And thank you very much. Andrew Lacy. Andrew, I think you're unmuted.

[55:19]

Oh, there may be a microphone difficulty. We can't hear you. If you'd like to type your question in the chat, I can post it on your behalf. While we do that, let's hear from Zach, and we can circle back. Thanks so much, Charlie. That was tremendously helpful for me right now. I really appreciate it. I had a kind of a technical question. I love the trajectory and the slogans that you covered from regarding all dharmas is a dream to living as a child of illusion, right? The big question, so I'm currently teaching a class on the five ranks, which addresses something like this as well, right?

[56:30]

The big question is, what's the practice of developing that trajectory? What would you say about that? How do you work with that so to bring to fruition that trajectory? Well, I think in some ways that kind of the basic force that I was kind of offering today is this energy of inquiry and questioning. But I also feel like all along the way, you know, grounded in the pain of our life. If that's from the beginning, grounded in the suffering, grounded in the... the impact of everything we do, then that's what the practice needs to live through. And so I feel like those are the two things that come up for me, that kind of basic grounding and inquiry.

[57:35]

Yeah. Could I just add one thing? I mean, from a technical perspective, my experience has been that initially while the relative feels visible and present in the absolute, the absolute does not feel visible and present in the relative. And that the process of developing that, and because the the kind of, you know, the term you used was grasping, but because the grip that the relative has on our mind is so powerful, it's so attention-consuming, it's so energy-consuming, and so on, that it's initially quite hard to see that that thing is true. And so the questions may not even arise for years, actually.

[58:38]

So is there any way to make that go... more smoothly or what do you think? Giving rise to that inquiry? Yeah, exactly. Oh, I feel like, I feel like, you know, if we've, if I don't know what we can do for people with that. I mean, I feel like anyone who comes to a, to a practice has some question. There's some inquiry. There's some, right. I feel like, and then the people, you know, I don't, I, if someone doesn't have that spark, I don't know. I don't know. I think it comes up for people. I don't think there's a way to get involved personally. Yeah, I mean, I feel like, I mean, I think, or anything, you know, any way we get involved with it, I think it's just, I think it'd just be laying something on people, which is not where it comes from. It has come from inside.

[59:41]

Awesome. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Time enough for one or maybe two more short questions. If there are no further questions coming forth, perhaps, Charlie, an invitation if you'd like to offer a few closing words and then we can do the closing chant together.

[60:56]

Thank you very much. May we, with all beings, endlessly inquire into actually living a life. Thank you so much.

[61:21]

@Transcribed_UNK
@Text_v005
@Score_95.72