This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. I want to begin by bringing up the last sentence of the instruction given by Nanyue to his disciple Matsu one way to put it is if you grasp the marks of sitting you're not reaching its principle if you attach to the form of sitting

[01:01]

you have not attained the principle or you have not reached the heart of the matter of sitting. One more way to say it is, if you are identified with the sitting form, you have not reached the heart of the matter. I've noticed that it seems that when we come to a particularly intense verbal expression of truth, or a verbal attempt to express truth, this kind of expression

[02:38]

It's like poetry. It's very intense. And when it gets translated, it often goes all over the place. If you give an instruction like, open the door and step in with your left foot, that often gets translated the same way by everybody. But when it comes to this kind of thing, when we're at the essential pivot, enlightenment and delusion, and somebody manages to express something about that, and then people try to translate. At the end, the language has so much energy that it's hard to. It doesn't go in the same direction. So here, Dogen comments on this. The translations of Nanyue's Chinese are quite simple, quite similar, I thought. I just read them to you.

[03:40]

The comments by Dogen, however, you can hear are quite different. So commenting on this teaching that when you attach to the form of sitting, you don't reach the heart of it or the principle of it. Dogen's first way of saying it and comment on this is, to grasp the form or the mark of sitting here means... to reject the mark and to touch the mark of sitting. Does that make sense to me? So you've got this form of sitting, this posture, which you're devoting lots of energy to during this asin and during this practice period, enacting this ritual form. So, This teaching says, you know, if you attach to it, you won't reach the essence.

[04:45]

So in a sense, the form is being rejected, but also the form is being touched. Another translation is, another comment is, to be identified with the sitting form here, is to have let go of and touched the sitting form. That's kind of saying something a little different. It's saying when you're really identified with the sitting form in this situation, you let go of it and touch it. Or you could even now say, when you're really intimate with the sitting form, you let go of it and touch it.

[05:47]

And then another quite different comment or translation is, this quotes to be attached to the sitting form means to reject the sitting form and to defile the sitting form. One translation says reject, the other one says let go. And the reject harps back to two sentences ago where Nanyue said, in the non-abiding Dharma there's no rejection or grasping. No rejecting or grasping. So here, in a sense, there's a rejection of the form of sitting Buddha and a touching of it.

[06:59]

And you can soften the rejection but lose the illusion by saying let go of the form. I feel a strong attraction or pull to the understanding that to be intimate with the sitting form of sitting Buddha is to let go of the form and to touch the form. The principle behind this is that In being a seated Buddha, we cannot fail but grasp the mark of sitting. In being a seated Buddha, it is impossible not to be one with the form of sitting.

[08:09]

since we cannot fail to grasp this form of sitting, though our grasping of this form is crystal clear, we are not reaching its principle. However clear The sitting form is the heart cannot be reached because it is impossible to be one. Excuse me. It is impossible not to be one with the sitting form. because it is impossible not to be attached to the sitting form when you're practicing sitting Buddha.

[09:32]

Though the attachment to the sitting form is brilliant, it may not be. It may not it may be not. It may be not to have reached the principle of that sitting. So this situation is one where you're practicing sitting Buddha and you cannot avoid the form of sitting Buddha and you're devoted to the form of sitting Buddha and you're totally intimate with it and you're not reaching the principle of it. You're not reaching the essence of it, the heart of it. And then this is the part that I really appreciate, Dogen says, this kind of concerted effort is called dropping off body and mind.

[10:43]

Penetrating this situation or effort like this is called dropping off body and mind the kind of sitting which is totally includes giving ethical discipline patience diligence and concentration and is also unsurpassed complete perfect enlightenment. Buddha sitting is like this. It has this quality of dropping off body and mind, which is realized in the effort, the intense effort, to totally identify with something and understand that in this total identification, you don't reach the principle.

[11:48]

And in this way, you transcend reaching the principle. Because you might think, well, wouldn't we want to reach the principle of it? Quite a few people would like to reach the principle, the heart of the matter, of the practice. Isn't that what we're doing here, to try to reach the heart of the matter? For some people, they might feel like, if I can be somewhere in the neighborhood, that's fine with me. I'm not trying to reach the heart of it. I'm not trying to reach the principle of zazen. No. I am, however, trying to practice, this person might say, seated Buddha. And I understand that it is impossible to avoid the form of seated Buddha when practicing seated Buddha.

[13:00]

We must use the form. The form must use us. And if we use the form, we will not reach the principle of what we're doing, which doesn't sound good. But if you're willing to do that, you... accidentally will fall into what's called dropping off body and mind which is similar to the previous sentence called killing Buddha which is going beyond Buddha if you reach the principle you might stay there because it's a nice principle it's seated Buddha principle who would not be tempted to hang out there for at least a little bit I've recently heard from somebody who actually got there for a day or two and he liked it very much. Didn't you? Hey, I understand.

[14:01]

I mean, I've never been there, but I understand. No, I'm not that kind of guy. I'm the kind of guy that totally grasps the form of sitting Buddha. and therefore I don't reach it. However, I do get to transcend it. I get to practice seated Buddha and transcend seated Buddha, which I heard that's what seated Buddha does. Right? Seated Buddha is like totally seated Buddha, and totally seated Buddha is totally transcending seated Buddha and not getting anything out of it. It being what? The Buddha way. But, yeah. You can't transcend it unless you're totally dedicated to it. Anybody can say, yeah, well, I don't mind not reaching the principle.

[15:03]

I don't mind not attaining anything. I don't mind not getting the seated Buddha heart. How much time do you spend sitting? I don't know. I actually don't sit. I don't need to. But if you're really devoted to it, totally identified, completely intimate with it, you will naturally not reach the principle and naturally transcend the principle and naturally transcend Seated Buddha, which is what Seated Buddha does. You attain it, again, without grasping or rejecting. you don't reject the form, you totally embrace the form and thereby let go of the form. And yourself too, by the way. And your body and mind. So there's no body and mind that gets to hold on and get and reach it. That's it.

[16:11]

That's the teaching that the ancestor gave the ancestor. They're not in our lineage, but They are wonderful teachers for us. Sometime soon, I would like to go back to the beginning of the story and go through it again with you. Maybe even now. That didn't take too long, did it? Anyway, that's it. That's it. That's the wonderful punchline of this teaching. About all this thing about helping us to practice Siddha Buddha, when we really are totally intimate with it, totally devoted to it.

[17:14]

We have to use the form. and using the form and being devoted to the form, we cannot reach the heart of the practice. Because the heart of the practice is not to be concerned with getting the heart of the practice. And once again, you cannot, excuse me, not being concerned with getting the heart of the practice doesn't mean much to somebody who has not made any effort in the practice. For a mother that doesn't take care of her children, not reaching the heart of motherhood doesn't mean much. For a father that doesn't take care of his children, not reaching the principle of fatherhood doesn't care. But when you're totally devoted, and then you hear that using some form to exercise your total devotion, you're not going to reach the essence, the essential matter of fatherhood,

[18:18]

you might think, well, why make the effort? Well, that's the point. That's when you kind of have a question about it. And if you can do that, you are dropping off body and mind. So my pages are numbered. I just read you page number five. Page number six is, and I can't stand too much of this kind of talk, but I'll just say a little bit, and that is like this. Know that the seated Buddha is that which Buddha after Buddha and ancestor after [...] ancestor have taken as their essential necessary pivotal activity. And

[19:20]

Just a little bit more I can stand. To say that the Dharma of the Buddha has been transmitted from the western heavens to the eastern earth. Isn't that nice? That's what they call India and China. The western heavens. And the eastern earth. To say that the Buddha Dharma has been transmitted from the western heaven to the eastern earth. earth implies the transmission of guess what seated Buddha for it is the essential function of the seated Buddha for it is the essential function of that Dharma and where the Buddha Dharma is transmitted seated Buddha is transmitted and unfortunately where the Buddha Dharma is not transmitted seated Buddha is not transmitted and our great answers then just palms that in for another paragraph or two you can read it if you want to in Shobo Ginzo Zabzan Shin so that's the

[20:47]

Then he goes on to some poetries about this essential pivot of zazen, which we recited that his poem earlier in the practice period, this pivot, the essential pivot of Buddha after Buddha, which is called Seated Buddha. It's that place where... The eye of practice facilitates the eye of Dharma, and the eye of Dharma facilitates the eye of practice. So that's page six, and now I go to page minus one. And on that page I wrote the question which Nanyue asked Matsu when he found Matsu sitting. sitting and sitting and sitting he asked him and I ask you too worthy ones virtuous ones what are you intending to do sitting there in meditation or worthy ones what are you thinking

[22:16]

in sitting meditation what are you aiming to do partner in sitting meditation what are you figuring to do in sitting meditation this is the way that Nanyue talked to Matsu according to the story this is a successor in this lineage and the teacher's asking him about what kind of thinking he's doing when he's sitting. Part of practice is to focus the mind, the attention, on the part of the mind that's not thinking, just the mind itself. also part of the practice is to focus the attention on the part of the mind that's thinking in this case we have somebody who's already trained his mind very well in looking at the unthinking part of the mind and has become calm now he's practicing seated Buddha and his teacher says what kind of thinking is going on there what kind of intention is there

[23:43]

What kind of figuring is there? And he says, I'm thinking to make a Buddha. Like that American spiritual, I think I'll make me a world. That's what God says. I think I'll make a Buddha. I intend to make a Buddha. I'm aiming at that. So I may, I'll ask you again probably if I have a chance. Worthy ones, what are you intending to do when you're sitting? What are you thinking about doing when you're sitting? I'm so happy to hear that.

[24:44]

Then Dogen's energy says something like, we should calmly give concentrated effort to the investigation of this question. Zenji says quietly ponder this question what are you thinking of doing in Zazen we should quietly consider and investigate this question some people think that in Dogen Zenji's Zazen or Bodhidharma's Zazen or Buddha's Zazen or somebody else's Zazen There's no thinking. Well, here Dogen is saying investigate the question of what you're thinking in Zazen.

[25:51]

Not only investigate thinking in Zazen, but investigate. But he also says... and concentratedly investigate. It's not just to sit and think about what you're doing. It's from a concentrated mind. And you don't have to be outside the zendo to do this. You can come into the zendo and enter into a deep samadhi, and then in that samadhi, investigate, analyze your mind, and see what's going on there. Find out what intentions are there. It might be quite simple. You look and you say, oh, I'm intending to make a Buddha. That's very simple. You might find that. Or you might find other things, apparently. I've heard some other things have been found. And along with those other things that you might find, which I won't mention, but they apparently get into the Zendo,

[27:04]

Dogen's suggesting, in addition to the other things you're thinking about, add this topic. Put this on your shopping list. Now there's only six days of practice period left to look at this question. What's the question again? What are you intending to do when you're sitting there? What kind of thinking is going on? Investigate that question. think about what am I doing here? What do I want to do here? What's the point of this? And I comment, such effort is necessary for the realization of, guess what, intimacy. And such effort is necessary for the realization of seated Buddha. same thing.

[28:09]

And notice that, yeah, oh, there's more questions. More questions that he raises. Now, he says, does this question that Nanyue is asking Matsu, does it mean that there must be some Thinking in Zazen. Does it mean that there's some thinking above and beyond Zazen? Does it mean that is there some path to be thought of outside of Zazen?

[29:30]

Should there be no thinking at all in Zazen? What... Does it ask what kind of thinking occurs in Zazen? Does it ask what kind of intending... occur, emerges in Zazen. So this question about Matsu's, Nanyue's question of Matsu, this question refers back to our more familiar question that the monk asked Yaoshan when he was sitting.

[30:32]

What kind of thinking is going on there? Without going into detail at this moment, I would suggest that if you look at this situation and you look at the situation of what kind of thinking is going on in Zazen Yaoshan, and Yaoshan says, I'm thinking of not thinking. How do you think of not thinking, non-thinking? So non-thinking is this kind of thinking. It's thinking of making a Buddha. It's thinking of making a Buddha. How? By grasping the form of sitting Buddha and realizing that you're not reaching the principle and transcending the not reaching and the reaching.

[31:45]

So the ancestor Ehe Koso is suggesting to his lineage, to his disciples, that in a state of concentration, of tranquility, you investigate what kind of thinking is going on in Zazen. You investigate what kind of thinking occurs at the very moment of sitting meditation? What kind of thinking occurs in the very moment of seated Buddha? Suggesting not only is there thinking in seating Buddha, but there is thinking about investigating thinking. All this occurring in serenity and brightness and buoyancy and relaxation and gentleness and energetic application careful enthusiastic inquiry into what's going on what's emerging in sitting

[33:26]

in this way, realizing the unconstructedness and stillness. After recommending this intense investigation and study of what kind of thinking is or is not going on in the tranquility, he then goes on to bring up something which I've brought up to you many times before, a very dear teaching to me where he says, rather than love the carved dragon, and I kind of want to add in, rather than love just the carved dragon, You should go on to love the real dragon.

[34:34]

You should cherish the true dragon instead of the carved dragon. More than love the carved dragon, we should love the real dragon. So there's some different ideas about what the carved dragon and the real dragon are. So one idea would be, if you have a nice Buddha statue on your altar, that's a carved dragon, and you, well, we have one here. You might love that statue. You might love the carved statue of the Buddha, carved in some kind of stone. And, oh, and there's a manjushri. You might love the manjushri. And then there's a lovely avalakiteshvar on the back of the altar. You might love that carved statue. dragon actually and Avalokiteshvara is standing on a carved dragon you might love the carved dragon she's standing on I feel like that I love those dragons but we should go on not get hung up on loving the carved dragons and develop a love relationship with the real dragon the real Avalokiteshvara

[36:01]

By the way, would the real Avalokiteshfar please stand up? No, not here? Oh, good. Will you be my teacher? Thank you. And they were surprised in China, too, to find Avalokiteshfar with a beard. It happens sometimes. Or can you imagine Abelokiteshvar with a shaved head? Usually we think, oh, Abelokiteshvar's got a top knot with lots of jewels in it, but it could be a shaved head. Could be a beard with a funny accent. Could be a foreign barbarian. possible.

[37:02]

Let's move on, shall we, to the real Avalokiteshvar, the real carved dragon. I mean, the real dragon. That's one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is that the carved dragon is this explanation of Zazen. I kind of love Dogen's explanation of Zazen, to tell you the truth. I love it as much as I love those carved statues. But let's move on from the description of zazen to the actual real zazen, shall we? Some other people interpret it as that the carved dragon is the meditation practice, the ritual. And that the real dragon is the fruit. But I think that's slightly... could be misleading to think that the fruit is something separate from the ritual. So the ritual form of zazen is the carved dragon.

[38:13]

You say, well, that's closer to the real dragon than just hearing about the description of the practice. But I say it's on the same level. The description of the practice is another form of zazen. talking about zazen is a form of zazen working in the kitchen is a form of zazen sitting cross-legged upright posture is a form of zazen and I think it's okay to love these things but again he goes on to say that both the carved dragon and the real dragon have the ability to produce clouds and rain and then he says this part is the important part, I think. Do not esteem. Do not value or treasure that which is far, but become intimate with it.

[39:17]

Do not belittle or despise what is near. Rather, become intimate with it. So the form that we're using, or the teachings, the explanations that we're using, these are near. We have them. Every period of Zazan we have our posture. Don't esteem or despise that posture. Love it, but not like or dislike. Love it means be intimate with it. And also, while you're at it, be intimate with the seated Buddha, which transcends the form of Buddha and transcends the reaching essence of Buddha and uses the form. So let's become intimate both with our karmic consciousness experience of practice, without liking or disliking it, without valuing or devaluing it, and let's also move from there

[40:30]

without moving, of course, to become intimate with the real dragon. And Professor Bielfeld says that traditionally Soto Zen people have understood the car dragon as, again, the form of practice and the real dragon being the realization of the point of the practice, which is the realization of not getting the point. But he says it could also be seen as the way to read his end text. When you're reading it, become intimate with the text and also become intimate with what the text is about. I'm not saying that there is thinking or isn't thinking in zazen.

[41:42]

I'm just saying we are being instructed to think. I'm not saying there is thinking or isn't thinking. I say we're being instructed to look and see what kind there is. If there isn't any, fine. You've done your job. You looked and you found nothing. But the instruction is don't just do it once. Do it thoroughly. see if there's any intention in your in your samadhi apparently there was an intention in yashan samadhi he was thinking of not thinking he was practicing non-thinking and what is non-thinking it is to be authentically who you are and you are a thinker sentient beings are thinkers Yashon was a thinker, Matsu is a thinker, Nanyue is a thinker.

[42:42]

But they were authentic thinkers. They were thinkers who became intimate with their thinking. And they were seated Buddhas who transmitted to seated Buddhas. we receive and practice the transmission of seated Buddha.

[43:57]

May we realize seated Buddha together in order to benefit this world of boundless suffering. May we neither esteem nor despise this great treasure, but become intimate with it. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma talks are offered free of charge, and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click giving.

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