Good evening. So why don't we sit for a few minutes and we'll talk about Bodhidharma. Whenever I sit, I remember how much I like to sit.

[06:02]

Sometimes I forget. It's like, oh, yeah, that's really nice. Stop. Take a break. I hope you all do that now and then. So. I have been really enjoying reading about the beginnings of Zen or what. in China is called chan. I don't know if I've said this before, but maybe you already know that the word chan, which comes from a Sanskrit word, jhana, jhana are meditative trances. So there's lots written about jhanas, jhanas are states that you can enter during meditation. Pagodas that you see with these rings, that those represent the different, more and more refined states. So in India and many parts of Southeast Asia, those practices are very actively cultivated.

[07:10]

Certainly lots of folks here entertain the various practices of the jhanas. So jhana, when the teaching of jhana arrived in China, they pronounced it chana. So jhana was jhana. And the school became Chan. And then when the Japanese monks arrived in China and heard Chana, they pronounced it Zena. And so then in Japan, the name became Zen. So basically, it's really all kind of a mispronunciation of this word Chana, where we got our mysterious word Zen, you know, not quite so mysterious, perhaps. So I had planned to start... Tonight with this koan from, there's two places where the koan about Bodhidharma can be found easily. One is in the Blue Cliff Record, which is a koan collection that tends to favor the Rinzai perspective, Rinzai Zen perspective of understanding or energetics, perhaps.

[08:18]

And then the other place you can find it is in the Book of Serenity, which is a bit more in the Soto Zen. Although these distinctions are becoming less and less significant. And the more I look at them, it's like, wow, that's interesting. And that's interesting too. So you can read both of those, those koans and compare them. There's quite a bit of difference, essentially not so different, but a lot of the commentary is different. Different writers wrote the commentary for these two koans. It's the first koan in the Blue Cliff Record and it's the second koan in the Book of Serenity. So before I spend any time with the koan about Bodhidharma and Emperor Wu, I thought I would help myself and hopefully you too, by providing a little context for where this story happened, how it happened, how it came to be, you know, the beginnings of Zen and became very dominant.

[09:21]

as the religion of China and also in Japan. And now we've got a little bit of a foothold here in California, we're working on it. So I really have found this text by Dr. John McRae to be extremely helpful in sorting out my own, you know, like bits and bobs of Zen that have come to me through, we're not very systematic in the way we teach Buddhism at Zen Center. fact, quite the opposite. Everybody gives a talk and is like, where are they coming from? I'm not quite sure. It could be almost anywhere. And that's okay. But at some point, each of us maybe finds ourselves wanting a little bit more of a linear progression. And I certainly did at some point in my time at Zen Center. I think, where'd that come from? How'd that start? So I began my own inquiry quite a number of years ago now by looking for, well, what was the first thing the Buddha taught? What's the first teaching and it was very exciting to find there was a first teaching called the first sermon or the first turning of the wheel of the law in which the Buddha following his enlightenment gave some lessons to the five ascetics who he'd been practicing with and in that first sermon are found very interestingly the first sentence includes the term middle way the non-duality and

[10:48]

find the middle way, avoid the extremes. And later on in that same sermon, it's very short, it's only about two pages long, are the Four Noble Truths, which are about causality. This is caused by that, and suffering is caused, and the end of suffering is caused. So one half of the sermon is causality, and in the very beginning of the sermon is non-duality. And these persist as the most important concepts throughout Zen or throughout Buddhism. That this is basically the pivot on which our understanding, our effort to understand the Buddhist insight spin. Non-dual, can't say much. Non-dual is the ultimate truth. And causality is the narrative that we are all caught up in that is called the relative truth. The truth about relationships, how things are related, including how the ultimate truth is related. the relative truth. And I did talk quite a bit about that over the months, you know, the passing, the few months we've spent together, those of you who have.

[11:53]

So we'll be referencing those over and over again, because those are significant threads that basically follow all the way along, right? Up until our most, you know, latest teachers, the latest articulations of the Buddha Dharma include this pivot between ultimate and relative truth. So going back to Dr. McRae and Bodhidharma and Zen coming into China. So I thought rather than starting... off with the story of Bodhidharma coming into China, from where we will then go to the students who followed him, became teachers, ending up with the sixth Chinese ancestors, a very big name in our family line, Huynong, the sixth Chinese ancestor. And from there on, we no longer have a single linear succession of names.

[12:56]

the, you know, this person, then this person, then this person, it all splits. And we get a number of different major teachers and all the different houses of what's called Zen. The five houses evolve after the sixth ancestor. So up until number six, it's kind of a, at least the story is, it's a straight line. So what I found really helpful about how Dr. McRae has framed... his own studies of the history of Zen, the history of Chan. I'm going to call it Chan while we're in China, Chan, in his texts, Seeing Through Zen, which I have held up a few times, Seeing Through Zen. And this is Bodhidharma. It has this dual meaning, seeing through Zen, looking through the lens of Zen at the Buddha's teaching, and then also seeing through Zen. Well, what's Zen up to? What is it? We can see through it. It's got a little trick that it's playing, this wonderful trick, but it's interesting to explore how this narrative, the Zen narrative, came into being and how it was kind of intentionally, almost like a potter would make a shape out of clay.

[14:10]

The Zen tradition kind of shaped its narrative through the use of these various named teachers like Bodhidharma. It's pretty clear there was no Bodhidharma. You know, there's no historic being called Bodhidharma, but they needed a Bodhidharma. So they made a Bodhidharma. They gave him a certain appearance. He doesn't look Chinese. He's got big eyes and earrings and a beard. And yeah, see, like in this picture. And... And he sat in a cave for nine years. And all of these stories about Bodhidharma are significant to the formation of what is it? When we say Zen, what are we talking about? Well, meditation. Right away, you've got somebody in a cave for nine years meditating. That's a pretty big piece. And also transmission. He had a disciple who he gave transmission to. So we begin the lineage going from this teacher to this teacher. That's an important part of Zen. So Dr. McRae points out a very interesting thing, which I hope you find as interesting as I do.

[15:15]

It's called this string of pearls fallacy. And he said that a lot of scholars were really misdirected in their efforts to understand Zen by trying to explain it through this named... So you've got Bodhidharma, then you've got so-and-so and so-and-so and so-and-so. And he said that this string of pearls fallacy, which is one that many of us make, I certainly made it myself. There's nothing about it I didn't believe, you know, that that teacher was with that student and they said those things to each other. And then they became teachers and said those things to their students. And that was true. And this was true. And it was all true as far as I knew. You know, every morning at Zen Center, we chant the names of the Buddhas and ancestors. And I know them by heart. And it starts with Shakyamuni Buddha and it ends up Suzuki Roshi. And it's very satisfying. You get all the way home, you know, through this list of names. So this is called the string of pearls fallacy, you know.

[16:18]

And he likens this to, I think, what in history is called the great man fallacy. So a lot of ways that I think most of us learned history, certainly I learned history, was there were these great men like Alexander the Great. They were the great. And well, you know, their names, Napoleon. And, you know, and that's the history is the story about these great men. But actually, it was all kinds of stuff going on. You know, they had nothing to do with them. Most people never met them, saw them, or even heard of them. There was all kinds of economic and religious and great movements that were happening. And lots of people were doing all kinds of things. But we have tended to take these kind of written records of these conquerors as being the dominant story of history. Well, this is the same thing that's happened with Zen. And it's certainly what's going on in the transmission of light. the book that we're looking at, where Kazon is literally naming the ancestors and telling their stories.

[17:23]

And it's a beautiful book. I mean, I love it. I've studied it for years and I enjoy every one of the stories. And they're pretty much apocryphal. They're pretty much mythic. And they're poetic and they're beautiful. And they are transmitting the Buddhist teaching like this clay, forming these clay figures. Each one of these teachers is creates another little shape that helps us to understand what's meant by awakening. Because each of these stories is about their awakening. And so that's not apocryphal. You know, that's like, oh, that makes sense. I can see how that little twist in understanding would help you to drop some of your old prejudices, you know, and help you to actually get closer to reality, you know, if that's ever... actually possible that we could actually get in touch with reality. That's the effort that these teachers and all of us who study Zen are making. So anyway, the string of pearls fallacy. It's very interesting.

[18:24]

And he said the challenge of it isn't so much that it's bad. You know, it's not bad. It's no... it's not bad. Like fairy tales aren't bad. They're wonderful. All kinds of religious celebrations aren't bad. They're wonderful. They're based on, you know, very unlikely that such and such a thing happened. Those kinds of miracles probably didn't really happen, but they're wonderfully inspiring and we celebrate them and so on. So, but the problem isn't so much that the problem is that we're missing out on the context. We're missing out on all the other wonderful things. that were going on at the same time. Each of these names really actually represents the Sangha. So each of those teachers had enough energy and knowledge and presence to bring other people in to study the Dharma together. So really what's still alive and has been alive since the Buddha was on the earth is the Sangha, is the community of practitioners who are really grateful

[19:27]

To have people who've taken up the study, who are willing to, you know, maintain the temples and talk to the donors and do all this kind of stuff. So, you know, these great, literally they have been men in most cases. These great men have done a great thing of providing an opportunity for others to study the teaching. And so it's really the context that McRae is saying we're missing out on. We're missing out on the beauty of what was going on in China at that time. So, you know, he says, you know, if we just instead of looking at the string of names, we just look at Chan basically... as a fascinating subject matter from all different angles, not just this line, but look at it historically, look at it economically, look at it in terms of written records, look at it in terms of the likelihood, archeological evidence and so on, and how much more rich and full that way of looking becomes.

[20:27]

So what Dr. McRae has done, and I wanna share with you this evening, is to create a very different way of looking at Chan. Instead of looking at it by virtue of each name, like starting with Bodhidharma and his student and so on and so forth, which is one way of doing it. He looks at the history of Zen by creating a chart of phases or trends that have taken place in the tradition that also includes these names. It's not like they're left out, but it also includes what was going on at that time. You know, what was happening? Where were the monks living? How were they living? and so on. So basically one of the things that's happened in China that's kind of outrageous really is that the ancestors or the Zen masters and their deportment and how they behaved and kind of somewhat outrageous in many cases, this idealized enlightened individuals in a very real sense replaced the figure of the Buddha.

[21:35]

So up until then, the monastics were basically in the temples and they were having their rituals directed toward the figures of the Buddha. And they were directing their study toward the texts written by the Buddha. All of a sudden, we have a tradition in which the attention of the monks is toward this person, this Zen master, who is basically sort of an icon. iconic way is sitting in the place of the Buddha as a living representative. And that's the myth that this Zen master is an enlightened avatar, you know, and is basically has the same enlightenment as the Buddha. So you're basically talking to the Buddha. So. Isn't that great? So this was a very juicy, pretty juicy opportunity for actually not just having some. dead wooden statue to relate to, but this kind of living creature, you know, like Bodhidharma with these big eyes, who could talk back and who could say things to you and could check your understanding and could study with you and all that kind of stuff.

[22:44]

So that shift is a big part of what makes Chan or Zen unique in Zen history. Now, there are, I've actually heard some... very sincere practitioners of the Buddhadharma from, you know, like particularly Theravadan cultures saying, you know, not to be mean, but saying, you know, they didn't really think Zen was Buddhism. I can see how you can make a case for that, you know. But anyway, too late for me. So this is one of the things that's come about and how the transformation of Buddhism as it went into China is it got... personified, you know, became people. And their spontaneity, the spontaneity of the people, this kind of what was characterized as enlightened, spontaneity of the Zen master, included such outrageous things as shouting at people, hitting them, pouring water on the monks, you know, pouring cold water on them while they're out in the cold trying to get into the monastery.

[23:49]

The guy goes out with a bucket of water, pours water, and it's just outrageous stuff. I've reflected myself. Fortunately, Soto Zen is not into that so much, but this one characterization of a type of Zen is really enactment of breaking up the set and breaking up the fixations that the monks have and their preciousness around deportment or whatever it is. It's like whack. So that's a big part of Zen that people know a lot about. So I wanted to go through these phases and where that one came from. That actually emerged much later on. It didn't start with Bodhidharma. He's not well known for shouting or whatever. He was maybe more of a quiet teacher. I'm not quite sure. He sat for a long time by himself in a cave. So that would quiet you down. So anyway, Dr. McRae says that the first phase, so there's four phases that I'm going to

[24:52]

Just to kind of run through briefly. The first phase, he said, is proto-Chan. Proto, P-R-O-T-O. Proto-Chan or proto-Zen. And it's not quite Zen yet. It's almost like this little homunculus. And this proto-Chan was between 500 and 600 centuries, the centuries A.C.E. after the Common Era. And this is the time that Bodhidharma has arrived on the scene in China. And from there, his successor, whose name is Hueca. So this is the first transmission in the lineage. The idea of a lineage is beginning to be formed in Proto-chan. The most important document of this period of time is the one I went over with you, I think it was last week, called the Treatise on the Two Entrances and the Four Practices, which is attributed to Bodhidharma. And does exist. So there was this document, whether there was a Bodhidharma or not, who looked like that picture, that's not known.

[25:57]

But the treatise is known. And it is, you know, it is from that era. So it's the first Zen, truly Zen document. And basically, that document is about these two entrances to practice, the first being through insight, through understanding, you know, penetrating insight, like aha. You know, you kind of get it. And the other is through practice, through deportment and through skillful means, which skillful means are expressions of your insight. So someone who has, you know, pretty good insight tends to be, you know, able to express that and the way they behave and the way they treat other people and the way that they take care of themselves and take care of the things around them and so on and so forth. attention to fine detail. That's what characterizes Soto Zen is called mimitsu no kafu, meaning attention to fine detail.

[27:02]

we're a little bit more on the fussy side of things and wanting things to be, you know, like things on the altars. I'm always straightening up things on the altar, like, no, that's not straight. Try to get the incense in there, like right up and down. So that's a pretty much a characteristic of how we train at the Zen center is this attention to detail. And that's both insight and deportment or practice. So proto-chan is, had multiple locations in northern China. And the practice was primarily based on the Lankavatara Sutra, the mind-only teachings, which we have talked about quite a bit. There was no lineage theory. Bodhidharma wasn't bringing with him a lineage theory. That was produced later. There was no such thing as lineage. And the practitioners of Proto-Chan were basically... out there by themselves. They were ascetics and meditators, mostly hermits.

[28:03]

So they didn't think of themselves as a school. They had no idea that later on, centuries later, they would be called proto-Chan or the beginning of Chan. They were just out there meditating and practicing asceticism as the Buddha had in his efforts to awaken. So it wasn't the Chan school yet. And it's only in this looking back. that it becomes the possibility of a stream that followed. So basically, McRae says that it was only a shadowy image of a shared group esprit. There really wasn't much solid there at all. So this is a proto-chan. And that's where Bodhidharma shows up. Then the next phase is called early-chan. And that's from 600 to 900 after the common era. 600 to 900. So during this phase, Chan has developed into an actual school. There's actually a self-conscious school.

[29:07]

They call themselves that. And the major names during this period of time are Hongren, which you don't have to remember. But Hongren is the fifth ancestor from Bodhidharma. So you have Bodhidharma, Huayka, and then there are two more. And then there's Hongren. Hongren is a very important figure because... By the time Hongren comes along, there are actually temples and there's much more of a location. So these Chan practitioners are in a place. They're no longer scattered around. They've actually crystallized into locations. They're practicing together. There is the beginning of a succession story. So Hongren is the fifth ancestor from Bodhidharma. And Hongren is an amazingly important transitional character because Hongren, The fifth ancestor. This is called the East Mountain School. It's at his temple where the sixth ancestor, who is said to be an illiterate woodcutter, shows up and has a very, very important encounter with another major student of Honrens.

[30:21]

And the sixth ancestor ends up winning, but is a very important competition. that I will tell you about when we get to him. But anyway, it's that point where Chan starts to split into factions. But up till there, the fifth ancestor, we have a pretty straight line, teacher, student, not too many people. And now we have temples forming and monks living together who are Chan monks. They're meditators. That's the primary activity. And they have somewhat different ideas about meditation, about contemplation of the mind. They all agree on meditation, but there's kind of an ongoing debate about technique. People ask me all the time, how do you meditate? It's a great question. I don't know. I don't know. I'm working on it. So anyway, again, the famous names during this period of time are Hongren, the fifth ancestor, and then also the sixth ancestor.

[31:22]

is about to show up. And there's another monk. And again, you don't have to remember any of these names, who does the PR that makes the six ancestor into the famous guy that he becomes. So the six ancestors may have been just kind of a monk who happened to live in the monastery. They take him and make him into this big presence. So he's got this PR campaign that happens after he's gone that is kind of interesting how this all works out. Anyway, so this important text that is connected to this phase, which is attributed to the sixth ancestor, Hui Nong, is called the Platform Sutra. And the Platform Sutra, which... I'm very happy we'll go through that because it's a wonderful sutra, is basically this turning toward the dominance of the Zen master. You know, the Zen master and the platform of ordination becomes a very significant reality of the Chan school.

[32:24]

So that platform sutra is wonderful. It's basically the emphasis now is on the Prajnaparamita. So we've Up until the sixth ancestor, we've been carrying the Lankavatara Sutra, the mind only teaching. So for a long time, these five up to the sixth were called the Lankavatara monks. There's another name for the Chan school was the Lankavatara monks who studied mind only. With the sixth ancestor, they switched the dials to the Prajnaparamita, like the Heart Sutra. So now we're going into a kind of a different emptiness teachings and all of that. So this is a huge sea change in the history of Zen. So that's early Chan. And then the third phase, again, Dr. McRae is called middle Chan, and that's 750 to 1000 A.C.E. This takes place during the Tang dynasty.

[33:26]

And I remember when I first arrived at Zen Center, there's much talk of the golden age of Zen. And the golden age of Zen was the Tang Dynasty. And that's when the really big names, you know, the ones that were much was written about, many stories, many koans, many, you know, greatly admired around the Zen camps were these names like Matsu, Shito, Rinzai. all of these are the major players that showed up as Zen masters. And this is the bursting forth of Zen into what became known as the five houses. And each of them had their own style of teaching, their own ancestor line, and so on. Some of those houses died out. The two of them that are still running strong, one of them is the one that I'm sitting in, the Soto Zen, is still going forward. going strong through Japan, and the other is Rinzai Zen, which is also going strong.

[34:29]

So both of these have been imported to America or California or wherever, you know, it's all over the place now. But these two schools have lots of interest, lots of followers, lots of teachers. And there's a really interesting, significant difference in the style of these two houses. We'll be talking about that too. So this is middle Chan, the golden age of Zen. It's during this phase that there emerges this very important characteristic mode of practice. It's called the encounter dialogues. So the encounter dialogues are what basically creates this master-disciple dynamic. Now, instead of facing outward, you're facing outward. another person directly face-to-face. So face-to-face transmission is actually a real thing during this phase. The master is basically holding the space for the student to come and meet them and be challenged as to their understanding.

[35:32]

So we're not turning toward this altar, really not any longer. It's really toward the Zen master himself or herself. And this is the period of time when Chan really became Chan. It really became the Chan that we know. And much as we know it now, I would say that the hallmarks of this phase are still present in how we set up our Zen center, how we practice here, how Suzuki Roshi, what he gave to us, which he received from Japan and Japan received from China. So this importation of Chan is pretty much intact from this particular phase. So McRae says that the locus of religious practice was firmly removed from individual effort in the meditation hall and replaced by a demanding genre of interrogation that sought to destabilize all habitual, logical patterns of thought. Spontaneity was the rule, and iconoclastic behavior was the norm.

[36:36]

So that's kind of the zen of the... you know, shouting and hitting and so on and so forth, that I think a lot of people think of that as Zen, more so than they do the school that we sit in, which is called the Silent Illumination School. You know, we're sort of the dullards in the Zen world. But basically, what it's saying is it's no longer about you going into the meditation hall and becoming awakened. It's you... That's fine. You got to go do that work. But basically, it's you meeting with someone who's been doing the same work for a long time and finding your common ground, finding the ways that you can actually move together, you know, finding harmony in your relationship to one another. And this actually happens. I mean, I think a lot of students arrive at Zen Center and they're Don't know what's going on. I mean, that's not a surprise. It takes a long time to even get comfortable with the fact that you don't know what's going on.

[37:42]

So, you know, not knowing what's going on can create some anxiety and some kind of feeling of like, well, you know, I mean, I think maybe, you know, I'm the abbess here. So I sit up in this seat and I've got all these brand new students there in front of me. And they're wonderful. And I'm so happy they're here. And then I don't know what they're doing to me. But I think I make them nervous. I don't mean to. But I'm wearing the clothes. And I've got the seat. And I've been doing this a long time. So I can sit there for a while. And it's hard for them. So when we have our conversations, it takes a while for there to be some trust or some willingness to be exposed. And to really, to kind of be willing to say, I don't know what's going on here. Can you help me out? And I go, yeah, of course I can. You know, I'll do my best. So that the ability of the students to be taught is really, you know, that takes some time, you know.

[38:44]

Say, what was that saying about somebody saying, do you want to, oh, yeah, somebody's saying, did you, are you here to learn? I said, that's not really the question. Are you here to be taught? Are you willing to be taught? Is that possible? Can you stand it? You know, can any of us stand it to be taught something? There was a young woman. She's memorable to me because it's unusual. She was a new student and Reb, who you all may know, Reb Anderson and I were standing together talking at the entryway to the Zendo. And she came in with her shoes on and we pointed out to her that she needed to take her shoes off before she stepped onto the wooden part of the floor, which is kind of a thing that we do. And she looked up at us and she said, thank you. And I was like, oh, that's so nice. You know, she wasn't offended. She wasn't scared. She wasn't sort of feeling like she'd been criticized, which she wasn't, you know, just giving her information and she could receive the information.

[39:51]

And I don't remember her name. She's long gone. But I thought there's a little right there is a little bit of the secret sauce for what it takes for any of us to be able to to learn something, particularly something as strange as Zen and all of that it entails. So. You know, one of the interesting things about the Golden Age of Zen, again, this is the Tang Dynasty, Golden Age of Zen, is that most likely, according to the historical record, that the entire Golden Age of Zen was a retroactive attribution of the dynasty that follows. So we have the Tang Dynasty and then there's the Song Dynasty. So these are historic, you know, dynasties, different emperors, different families. the Tang Dynasty, called the Golden Age of Zen, was actually, as it turns out, a creation of the Song.

[40:53]

So during the Tang, it's kind of vague what was going on or who these people were, and there was some written record, but it wasn't really put together very well, and the little bit of biography of any of these teachers was very thin, couldn't say too much about them. By the time the Song Dynasty literati got a hold of these stories. They just made them into the most beautiful, poetic and gorgeous, like extravagant descriptors and writings and songs. So beautiful. So when we received the teachings from the Tang Dynasty, like when I first came to Zen Center, what do I know? I was just like, oh my gosh, the Tang Dynasty is where the magic happened. Well, actually, as it turns out, as the historians are finding out more and more, This writing was from the song, and it was retroactive attribution, meaning you attribute these characters back in history.

[41:55]

You make heroes out of those warriors. You pick somebody, let's pick George Washington and make him really tall and make him whatever we need him to be so he can be our avatar of our new nation. So we're always picking people to do that too. And this is what the Song Dynasty did. They made these really big Zen figures who then were there to ancestors, right? So that if I, I want a really good ancestor for myself. So I'm going to make sure that that person that I'm descended from, it's a really big deal. You know, people do that with their family histories too. Oh yeah. My great grandfather, man, he was something else anyway. So this is very human. It's very human thing to do. And it's also, it's creative. It's, it's like, we write, we write novels, we write poetry about things we love. So these devotees, of Chan in the Song Dynasty loved Zen. They loved the teachings. They loved the Buddha Dharma. And so they basically used that love of the Dharma to do these poems and these portraits of these amazing ancestors.

[43:06]

So, you know, even though this is apocryphal, it's fantasy, it's no less inspiring or enlightening. It's just not based on historical fact. That's all. It's just not true, you know, but it's okay. It's okay. What's true? We don't really know. So the next, the fourth phase that Dr. McRae offers to us is the Song. This is the one, the very famous Song dynasty, which is 950 to 1300. So now we're getting up close to Dogen. and some of the more modern Zen teachers whose records we do have and whose portraits we do have. And we do know where they lived. And we do know much more about them as actual living teachers and masters and so on. So during the Song Dynasty, this is the mature pattern of Chan. evolved then. And it pretty much is what exists up to the present day. It's sort of like they got this stamp.

[44:09]

They got their formations all in line. They've got the story down. They've got the teachings. They have the emptiness teachings and the mind-only teachings. That's all infused in there. And now they have this genealogy and they have ritual. So everything has kind of come into focus. And this is the mature Zen, or what McRae calls the climax paradigm. You know, he's using the example from ecology, a climax ecosystem. So at this point, Zen is now fully matured. It's got its full formation. Really not too much happens from there, although it may be changing. It's going to be hard not to with its exposure to California. But basically, up until that time, California... you can see a lot of this. If any of you have been to Japan, you can see the climaxes and it's beautiful. It's amazing how the ritual and the teachings and the care of the tradition is taking place, you know, right now, right now and being transmitted.

[45:14]

So one of the big things that happened during the song that really had a really huge impact on Zen was the development of Koan or Kana Zen. And this is a teacher by the name of Da Hui Song Gao, the 12th century. So he's kind of a parallel character with Dogen. You know, Dogen is the Soto Zen primary. And then this Da Hui and Lin Ji are the Rinzai Zen. So Da Hui basically developed this meditative introspection on words. So the koan or taking what's called the head word from a koan, like moo. So some of you may have done practice, Rinzai practice, where you basically meditate on a phrase or a concept. Does a dog have Buddha nature? Moo or no. And you just stay with that day after day, year after year. You work on this koan.

[46:18]

And that's the primary practice. And then if you get that one solved, then they give you another one. And you go through this whole curriculum of koans. I haven't done them, so I don't know. I certainly like koans, and I've studied koans, and I enjoy them very much. But I haven't done the systematic study of koans with a teacher. And so you bring, for those of you who know something about that, you bring your answer into the teacher. And you've got a little bit of time to get that done. So the teacher's in there ringing the bell, bong. And you go in and you go, bong. And then they go, no. And then they throw you out. And then the next one comes in. And little by little, at some point, apparently, you pass. Or maybe, if you're lucky. And then you get another one. So this kind of practice of presenting your understanding. And apparently it's a lot more about enacting your understanding than it is expressing it verbally.

[47:21]

You know, just show me, you know, show me, move, show me your understanding. So there's a lot of theater involved in, in Koan practice, which I think probably is a lot of fun, except most people aren't having that much fun because they really want to pass. So they're going in there and give it to me, give it to me. And that's, that's tough. So. So we're the silent illumination chan, which comes through another teacher by the name of Hongzhu. And he writes the most beautiful Zen poetry. If you haven't read Hongzhu, Dan Leighton, Taigan Leighton has written a beautiful book. I forget the name of it right now. Oh, Cultivating the Empty Field. It's beautiful translations of Hongzhu's Zen writing, which is quite accessible and quite beautiful. And Dogen, He quotes Hongzhiu quite a lot. He really respected Hongzhiu. Hongzhiu was well-educated and had a lot of knowledge of Chinese poetry.

[48:21]

And so when he wrote Zen, it was really appealing to urban students and the intelligentsia in China. So let's see, where are we? McRae points out that these two styles of Zen practice, so Rinzai, let's say, is one and Soto is another, are actually not separable. I mean, I think our minds tend to go like, you know, blue states, red states, right, wrong, whatever. We tend to be very dualistic in our preferences. So, you know, I'm a Soto Zen priest, so then I'm going to be lined up with... the Soto Zen folks, and I'm a little suspicious of the Rinzai Zen folks and that kind of stuff. You know, it's human nature to do that. And McRae is saying, and I think we all should hopefully be old enough by now to know that this is not really a very helpful way to see things.

[49:23]

Actually, what's helpful is to see how these two approaches are complements as with the E, you know, they complement each other. Just as light and dark is a compliment and right and wrong are compliments. They're not separable. They basically inform each other. And there was a great debate in the Zen tradition between sudden awakening, like that's the only kind you can have, and gradual awakening, which is cultivated over a long period of time. So you spend a lot of time practicing and you do all this and you read and you study. And then at some point, kaboom, you know, you wake up. And then the other school is called the sudden awakening. And wait, you just right now, you just go pop. Don't wait, you know, just do it now. So these two schools, you know, I think most people would be more appealed to the sudden, you know, not having to go through all that trouble. But those two are also compliments. You know, whatever you're doing in your devotion to practice.

[50:24]

Somewhere along the way, you have all kinds of realizations. They happen all the time. They're just popcorn. It's like, oh, that's really great, or that's really great. And some of them feel a little bit more inspiring. And so you get some encouragement to keep practicing, and that's part of the deal. I remember there was a Japanese teacher, an older man, who we were asking why so many of these young Japanese priests, I mean, in their 20s, you know, had brown robes, which means they had dharma transmission, you know, somewhat indicating they had some pretty good understanding of the dharma. And he said, oh, that's just to encourage them, to keep them going. That's good. That's kind of helpful. Don't make a big deal out of these things. So, yeah, Dr. McCray says that all of these various conflicts or doctrinal disagreements that have taken place in Zen history, such as the one I just mentioned between the sudden and gradual, and also the ones that occurred when the Sikh ancestor has this little competition at the monastery.

[51:43]

These are really important for us to not... turn into two sides, but to remain as one coin with two faces, and each one being equally important and required for the other. And Dr. McRae uses this French word, dual, D-U-E-L, dual, which he said, you know, nicely, dual in English and dual in French, it really helps to understand the way these complements work. So one side, dual means there's two, and also dual means they they work on each other. There's this dueling thing that's happening. It's like, really? That's not what I think. Well, that's what I think. So we have this chance to really refine our understanding by being in a kind of contest, but not with anger or not with violence, but really with a deep wish to understand that we come into this kind of... what they call, you know, combat, Dharma combat, which is this deep wish to find out, like, what's the highest meaning of the holy truths?

[52:50]

You know, that's what Emperor Wu wanted to know from Bodhidharma. Tell me the highest meaning of the holy truths. And Bodhidharma, you know, instead of giving him something he can chew on, he gives him vast emptiness, nothing holy. Like, poor guy, you know, he's been working hard to build temples and to understand the Dharma and to translate texts and so on. And all of a sudden, he's just kind of like, what? Vast emptiness? Nothing holy? That's what you got for me? You know, you've traveled all the way from India to tell me this? You know, so, but his love of the emperor, who wasn't able to recognize it at the time, was to not fool around. Yeah. You know, it's like, what are you thinking? Was all the holy stuff's over here and the not holy stuff is all over here? Like, what are you dreaming about? There's nothing holy. Everything's holy. You can't just make something holy and then leave everything else out. It's all this whole reality is holy and how we live is holy.

[53:55]

And, you know, so don't try to, you know, divide it into preciousness and parts. better and less good and all of that stuff that we do. So these are liberative. These responses are to bring liberation to the places where we're caught. Dual. So there's a dual. And there's a dual. It's close. It's intimate. Bodhidharma and the emperor were very intimate. And it was dangerous. I mean, the Bodhidharma is talking to the emperor. You don't talk to the emperor that way without some risk. And I guess he was amazing enough in his presence and his simplicity that he wasn't threatening. And the emperor said, well, who are you? Who are you? Bodhidharma gives him another. Don't know. Don't know. And that was the truth. He wasn't playing games. He said, don't know. How would I know?

[54:55]

What would I say about who I am? You know, there wouldn't just be fabrication, some kind of mental, emotional story that I made up that I've learned to say about myself to make you comfortable, your highness, you know. So the emperor knew who he was or he thought he did. So let's see. Maybe that's enough for now. And I will next week. I will. look at these koans, which really have a lot of stuff in them and a lot of what's in them. Both versions are good. The Book of Serenity is great. And the Blue Cliff Record is really great. And they have these phrases that are, if you've spent any time around the Zen camps, some of these phrases will be very familiar. It's like, you know, it's like our lore. It's our... our hometown kind of way of talking.

[55:59]

So I think it's good to expose yourself to some of the vocabulary of Zen. And certainly these two cases are rife with Zen vocabulary. So that's all I have for today. I'd be very happy to hear whatever you'd like to offer. And thank you for being here. I'm going to get rid of my speaker view. There we are. I can see you all. Great. OK. Hello. Hello. Hello. Please, please feel free to. to do something. Oh, great. Thank you. Thank you. Hi, Kelly, Bill. Hello. Hello.

[57:00]

Thank you. That was great. I'm wondering when you had this realization that these stories were created later and then they were metaphor and fantasy, Did it cause any sort of crisis in your way you thought about what you were doing? Because it is kind of shocking to realize it. I know it is. And fortunately, I think most of us probably at our age have been, you know, well, I don't know. I don't want to say that. I'll just say for myself, I've been practicing for about 20 years when I found out there wasn't a Santa Claus. So, you know, I was kind of a late bloomer. It's like, what? So I already had memorized all this stuff and was just a believer. I didn't have any doubt about any of it. And I was a gung-ho Soto Zen. So it was really kind of fun.

[58:04]

I found it to be like, oh, this is great. This is a whole new, like this whole cabinet. of information opened up and all the books came falling out. You know, it was like, this is great. And I love McRae. He's very, very friendly. He loves Zen. So he's not being disrespectful at all. He's just saying, it's just not true. It's beautiful, but it's not, it's not what we throughout the Zen history have believed to be so. And Dogen didn't know this wasn't true. You know, I don't think Suzuki Roshi knew it wasn't true. So, I think we're the first generation, perhaps. The Dong Wan Caves, which I'm sure you probably know about the Dong Wan Caves, they were found, if you haven't read The Devils on the Silk Road. Is it White Devils on the Silk Road or something like that? Anyways, there's a great book about these. Before there were airplanes, so these guys went into the desert. Mostly English, German, they're Westerners.

[59:05]

And found these caves that were full of sutras and texts and drawings. Thousands and thousands of these caves all sealed up that were from the 8th century, 7th and 8th century, these materials. So they've been spending the last 100 years since this material was stolen from China and brought to Europe and put in museums. I think some of it's been given back, but a lot of it was just taken on camels and, you know, and brought out of China. And these scholars had been spending their lives reading through this material. And one of the things McRae says is they kept reaffirming the lineage stories with what they'd find. And then finally, they started realizing, oh, these are stories. And they began having a much more interesting understanding of it from a much more of a scientific and bringing all kind of modern ways of studying literature and texts and so on to bear.

[60:13]

And I think the fruit of that has been just thrilling. So I would say I lost something and I got something that in many ways I find thrilling. And I didn't have to give up the other stuff. I still know the ancestors. You know, I still chant them with a lot of enthusiasm. Would you say that in a way they are truthful, but not that they actually happened? Yes. Maybe a way to think about it? Yes. They're truthful in the sense of the Dharma. It is the Dharma. The Buddha, you know, we don't even know if there was a guy. I mean, we don't even know who that was either. 500 years after he died, there wasn't any writing. So... That's a little bit of apocrypha. Right? But it's okay. I mean, I think the stories that come through, the Dharma, the truth, can be confirmed by you. You get to confirm if these teachings are insightful and enlightening for your life.

[61:21]

And certainly that's why I'm excited. It didn't hurt my... love of meditation or of study or including this, you know, it's still as more alive, perhaps, than when I was kind of a sectarian Zen person, a little rigid. Thank you. Yeah, you're welcome. Hi, Debra. Oh, Debra, thank you so much. Oh, okay. didn't know if you even got it but i'm i [...] did i had every intention of getting right back to you and i found a beautiful spot for she sent me a wonderful sky painting it's just amazing i just do these little studies and i beautiful i just do them and don't change them beautiful i was hoping to thank you in person so here you are trying to practice, if I think of doing something generous, just do it, you know?

[62:25]

It's great. It's beautiful. And yeah, thank you so much. Could you say something about Taoism and its influence? Can I? Well, I mean, it just seems like it changed so radically when it came to China. And I know that Taoism, I mean, even the fact that we say the way, you know, that we follow the way of Taoism. It just seems like it has such a profound, does he say anything about it in the book or? No, not this book, but you know, there's lots written about that. I am not someone who's done much study of Taoism or Confucianism, but I do know that there was huge influence and particularly around, you know, in China, you don't mess with the family and Zen was a big threat. to the family system. And because they were taking the sons, just like in India, too, you're taking our sons.

[63:27]

And so they did some interesting things. Historically, one thing I do know is that there's a story, someone just sent me an article about it, of I forget the name of the monk, but his mother had died in this story. And he tried to make offerings for her because she was in hell, she was burning in hell for some reason. And But his offerings weren't enough. So he called on the sangha, the community of monks, to make the offerings. And that saved her. That got her into heaven. So the idea that these monks praying for your family members, because this is a really important thing in China, is that your ancestors, that those monks can increase the merit and can actually bring much greater benefit to your family. So there was some of that kind of thing that was done. to make it palatable to have monastics, male monastics living together and not raising families, not creating, you know, dynasties, the family dynasties.

[64:34]

But beyond, you know, as far as the philosophy and so on, I'm really not a good person to ask about that. But I know there's a lot written on it. I sit with a group that's been reading the Tao Te Ching. Uh-huh, uh-huh. things about the philosophy of Taoism, when you read the Taoism, so much of it is how the ruler should rule. And we just read one section where it said that you should keep the people dumb. And I read these things, and there's a lot of things about women, too. And I read it, and I think, wow, I didn't come to Zen, you know, for this. And it's not what I think of Taoism, and yet I... So I'm just curious because when you read the philosophy of absence and presence, which is part of Taoism, it sounds so much like. Yeah. Yeah. And it doesn't sound to me like that. I mean, there are parts. So much. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe I'll spend a little time looking at that, but it's really not something that has pulled me yet, but I know you're right.

[65:41]

I know there's a huge, maybe somebody here knows more about Taoism and, and if you, Got some of that to offer? No? Somebody? Well, we'll all look into it, Deborah, if we can. If some of us gets a chance. I know Confucianism too. Of course it did. Those were the dominant traditions. A lot of shamanic. Buddhists have been very adaptable. They're willing to kind of take up the local shamanic practices and then try to retranslate them into Buddhist practices. terminology or understanding. I have another question, but it's okay. Yeah. In China, women didn't practice in Chong. Did they? Well, there were nuns. There were nuns in India. They were separate. And they had their own monasteries.

[66:42]

And at some point, the women's lineage died out. And that was pretty challenging. But There were lay women and there were also I think there were not fully ordained monastics. And this has been quite a challenge to try and bring that lineage back. I think they've done it, although some people say no and other people say yes. But, you know, for us, we kind of ignore all that. We just went ahead and ordained women and turned them into teachers and priests and so on and so forth. Suzuki Roshi actually was pretty radical. And his first impulse was to have an all-male practice period at Tassajara. And then maybe the next time, all women. And the hippies said, no way. We're not going to separate. You have to have us all together. So he said, okay. So men and women practiced together in California. And that was radical. Yeah. So we've actually had our own, in a way, if you talk about lineage or splitting streams, branching streams flow in the dark, you know, Zen center is kind of a whole new beast that's coming out of the tradition.

[67:53]

And we're finding our way as we have kids, we have, you know, I raised a child, I live here with other people who have children. Well, you know, you were here. So this is a hybrid situation that we're still trying to sort through. for ourselves, but I think it's got some pretty good chance of going forward for a while. Thank you very much. You're welcome. Thank you again. Hi, May. Well, since I've read somebody talk about China. Oh, great. Thank you. I have a I can't speak anything because I spent half my life in the United States and I was born in China. But my influence, my grandma practiced Tibet Buddhism. I have no idea about the monastery.

[68:58]

I know nothing about that. But it is actually in America, I... I met someone from India. It's very interesting. And then I said, hey, you know, this Buddhism is all from India. And he said, you know, I never paid attention to it when I was in India. You know, same as me. I never paid anything because I was young. Anything about parenting doing, I'm totally on the opposite. I'm against that, right? And now I feel like, whoa, I feel like I'm in... I go back. I feel lucky that here I'm able to find the source because in China, there's a Dao, there's one layer. I think the Buddhist is made in Indian, right? Originally, but Dao is in China. Now they mingles three things together is a Dao and then Buddhist and then Confucius together.

[70:02]

And then after many years, there's a German, there's a, right now there's a German, there's a Russia. I don't know how many layers. I have no idea what is a contemporary China is. And then, you know, and all of this practice. And I just want to share something, which is very funny is if I, if I tell my folks right now that I'm learning Buddhism and then, you know, I can, and they will say, what's wrong with you? And then they said, let me cook some food for you. That's their reaction. I don't know. I'm just so hilarious. And then the other day, I see some people in the car has a bumper sticker. He said, don't trust anything you think. Cook good food. So I'm like, oh, I started to appreciate Chinese right now. But for me, when I would grow up and never, you know, I, I want the freedom, you know, and then, then now I started appreciate, you know, my grandma.

[71:14]

So that's lovely. Thank you. So you can trust what you eat, but not what you think. I think they, I, oh my God, they just so obsessed. with the food. You just had New Year. Did you celebrate New Year with your family? Yeah, it was really light. Yeah, they're just, and I was, I tried to, you know, stay away from, because that was too much. See, this is interesting. And now it's just too polarized, you know, and then, but it's glad that, especially also women as well, I feel like if I was in China, people might think, because there was such hierarchy about Buddhism, you said, oh, you're too, maybe you're not qualified to learn something like this, such as a diamond sutra or, you know, women or something.

[72:18]

Even though they didn't say it, but you can tell they kind of like, well, you're not, but I'm glad I'm here. And then I was able to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, me too. Me too. It's not much better here for, you know. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for coming on. Okay. Well, Guy, do you want to say something and then we'll all go home? I mean, we're home, aren't we? Yeah. No way out. Hi, Guy. Oh, there we go. I was trying to unmute. Hi. Thank you so much for... I... really felt like the talk was really, really important. And I wanted to say in terms of my perspective with what Bill and Kelly was saying is that I started when I first heard about it, I think one of the first talks, the approach that you gave was already with the understanding that these were stories.

[73:20]

And I think that was almost the sort of thing that was extremely liberative in a way and in a way it made me feel like wow is there any more a sort of uh you know the best thing i could say is walking the walk and talking the talk when even this is a story i feel like that was the heart of it is that that's what you are holding on to is that belief and then once you realize it's a story and it's okay because isn't that what it all is in a way. And it was sort of a thing where I was like, okay, any other, if you can call it a religion or whatever it is, is under this concept of belief and of history and of knowing where this approach of like, no, no, it's about not knowing. The less you know, it was extremely liberative. So I'm really grateful that that is the that's the the approach and and i'm grateful for the talk and everything like that so thank you so much you're so welcome everyone as well right now it's a nice gathering isn't it yeah okay well thank you so much for your coming and being here and and um i hope you all stay well

[74:40]

I hope you get your shot soon. I just got my first shot. It was amazing to get a shot. I know. It's just like, it's so exciting. It's just, I didn't even know I was afraid until I got my shot. I go, oh, we need protection. So please, I hope you all can get that soon and that we'll all be able to meet someday for real. Yes, yes. This is pretty real. I don't mind. So take care. If you want to unmute and say goodbye, you're welcome to do that. Thank you, Fu. Your teaching is deeply appreciated. Yes, yes. Thank you so much. Thank you. Bye, everyone. Have a great week. Thank you, Fu. You're welcome. Thank you. Take care. Take care. Bye-bye. Thank you, Fu. Peace. Yeah. Peace and love. That's fine, I don't know. Good night, Phu.

[75:44]

Thank you. At least we're going to see you soon. Yes, take care. Great, great. Look forward to it. Hi, Kate and Paul. Thank you, Phu. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you for the lovely letter. You're welcome. We all worked on that. And we said, can we leave anything out? Actually, there is something that was left out. What? And it was not a problem, but it's a big deal. And we were very honored to be able to be part of it. It was the land fixing the road. The entrance road. Sarah worked so hard on that. She did such a great job with the contractor. It was such a major unsettling project. And she worked it all out. But we agreed to fund that because we thought the road into the And green gulch was important. Well, yeah. But it was so low priority. That was why we were the ones working on it, because it's completely invisible, and it still is.

[76:50]

We're going to get you another letter. By the way. Yeah, so we're not saying that. We were so moved by that. Yes. You know we love you. I mean, it's just like universal. Yes. Thank you. Well, this changes everything now. Your talk today. Oh, good. I hope for the better. Thank you. I'm never quite sure which way it's going. See you next week. Yeah, good. You take care of you guys. Can you get your thoughts yet? Yes, actually, we got our second one. Great. Oh, wonderful. Two weeks ago. She just got her first one. Just now. That's where I was. Oh, and we did have somewhat of a reaction. Did you hear the second one? And actually, we were feeling good that we had a reaction because Amanda was doing something. That's what I read. It's a good sign if you're feeling woozy.

[77:52]

That means it's working. Your immune system is functioning. It's not to be avoided. It's to be welcomed. They got two shots. Did you get Moderna? We happened to get Moderna. In the sequence of things, most people here are getting Pfizer. In the cohort we were in earlier on, that was what they had. That was what they had first. Yeah, that's what I got, too. Did you get Moderna? I got Pfizer, and apparently Moderna gets a stronger reaction on the second dose than Pfizer. So did you get Moderna food? I did, yeah. And I went to bed. I went to bed. Oh, and that was the first one. Yeah. It's actually a higher dose. Yeah. You know, it's a tradeoff between not wanting people to be afraid of it because there's so much stories of reactions versus having an effect.

[78:55]

And Moderna erred a little bit or, you know, chose a little bit on the more higher dose side. I'm okay with that as long as it doesn't. No, it doesn't seem to. All right. Well, thank you for the extended chat. Welcome. Nice to have you both in my house. Bye-bye.

[79:22]

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