Morning, everyone. Is this the right time to say that? I can't hear anybody. Excuse me. So, today is the 4th of July, and they usually ask me to give the talk on the 4th of July so that the seniors in... can take a day off. Well, I'm happy to do this. No problem. It's a good time to talk. The 4th of July, Independence Day. You know, I remember many, many years ago, I thought, Interdependence Day, that's what it is. That's what we should be celebrating. I have no problem with Independence Day. Independence Day is very good. You know, we're independent from the tyranny of being under the thumb of a distant country over the waters.

[01:21]

And a king. Of course, democracy, you know, and we developed something called democracy. People are calling it an experiment. I never thought of it as an experiment. I always thought of it as, that's the way it is. You know, we're a... When I was born, 1929, I only knew one president until I was in junior high school. Roosevelt was the president and he promoted democracy. And that's what I thought we were all about. I thought the military was great and the presidency was great and what he was doing was great, restructuring the country, bringing back so-called prosperity.

[02:27]

And then everything changed after the Second World War was over. And democracy has been fighting for its existence ever since. And right now we're at the great crossroads. I don't want to tell you who to vote for. Just vote. Please do that. That's the only way that we can make things move without creating a revolution. There are two words. One is revolution. The other is revolt. So when we talk about revolution, we're usually talking about revolt. A revolution is where you start somewhere in a circle. and go around the circle and return to where you started. Anyway, this morning I looked at my mail, and I found a letter from Daihonzon Eheji, from the Abbot of Eheji.

[03:39]

He didn't say anything about the Fourth of July. He did talk about interdependence. He was talking about, I have it right here. He sent us a prayer, a prayer for all of us uniting to take care of the coronavirus. And it's quite nice. I don't want to read the whole letter. It's not terribly long, but I don't like to read the letters when I'm doing a talk. But here's the prayer. I have to do everything backwards there. That's a really nice thing. Looks like somebody's brain. So that's the prayer.

[04:43]

So let me hang that up in Zendo. And I just want to read you a little bit of this letter. It's very sweet. He said, in the 20th century, I've got to put on my glasses. In the first century, our world seemed, through globalization, to have achieved so much in progress and development. And now, in a short period of time, a virus has spread over the entire Earth, revealing a fragility we had not imagined. So then, he says, Master Dogen... The founder of Aheji taught that the realm of birth and death is the life of Buddha. This teaching means this life received in this world of inconceivable interdependent affinities must be lived to the fullest as the life of Buddha.

[05:56]

So... At the Heiji, at the Kosodaishi Honho, the Assembly of Ceremonies, expressing gratitude to the eminent ancestor, Master Dogen, we dedicated our wisdom in order to transform these great difficulties into small difficulties and to pray that the world return to peace. We hope that with all our hearts, that in all countries this pandemic will pass, that people will recover from their illnesses, and the spirits of those who have lost their previous lives will be at peace. May we join our hearts and walk forward together as people who enjoy their lives as the life of Buddha. So that's kind of like their prayer. And sharing that with us is very sweet.

[07:00]

So, birth and death is the life of Buddha. Of course. So, how do we walk in the path of the Buddhist past during a time like this? Or, actually, any time. You know, before the pandemic, We're all sitting zazen in a zendo, doing service, you know, relating to each other, serving meals, having sashim, blah, blah, blah. Wonderful. And then suddenly, we're out on our own. Under strict rules and regulations. And at Pace Street, All of us are, I got these explosions going on in my head, sorry, living under one roof.

[08:15]

But in Berkeley, where my Zendo is, we have eight or ten residents who live under more or less a roof. And we have everybody else living outside. And so the people living outside have to find how to practice without all the accoutrements that we're so used to. We're thrown out on our own, so to speak, which some people lament, but I find really good. Zen is just Buddhism, of course, but it has a certain way of practice. That's why we call it Zen. It's just a word. Our practice is to find our way under all kinds of conditions, to recognize the conditions, to face the conditions, to embrace the conditions, and to be free from the conditions at the same time. So I'm really happy about, I'm not happy about the virus at all, but I'm happy that everybody is thrown out of their usual conditioned way of practice.

[09:32]

and finding their way by themselves, by ourselves. Of course, we Zoom each other, which is fine. I like that. But basically, our day-to-day practice is individual practice, which is very common in the Buddhist world. People have solo retreats. So I look at my life as having right now as a solo retreat, which we don't usually do at Zen Center, which is frowned upon actually by the Japanese. Japanese Zen practice is together practice. And individual practice is conceived sometimes as ego practice. You know, you're doing something for your own benefit. We should be doing something for our own benefit.

[10:36]

But what we do for our own benefit should benefit others as well. So we should be included. You know, sometimes we say, I just devote my life to everybody else. But you should also be included in everybody else. There's a story of the 10 monks, and they were counting to see how many there were. And they said, Joe, will you count us and see how many there are? And he started counting. He said, nine. There are nine of us. And then everybody got scratched their head. He said, do it again. And he counted again. And there were only nine. And then some little guy said, what about you? So, although our practice is for the benefit of everyone, we are also included.

[11:37]

And when your practice is... What we do, actually, is dedicate our individual practice to the benefit of all beings. That's called the difference between Hinayana and some other kind of practice, which I don't want to call Hinayana. People take umbrage when you say Hinayana, you're prejudiced. But that's not so. Our practice, as Suzuki Roshi used to say, is Mahayana. Hinayana practice, actually, was a Mahayana attitude, mind. Hinayana practice. Hinayana means... small, but I think of it as narrow, where you're limiting your practice to a certain kind of bare essential, barely essential practice.

[12:47]

To me, that's what jnana is. It's narrow, not small. And Mahayana practice-wide and more inclusive of various things, people and attitudes and so forth. So both are important and both are necessary for a complete practice. So this leads me to what I really want to talk about today. Master Dogen says, I don't want to lay it on him, but he says, without a teacher, forget about practice. That's pretty strict. I would say without a teacher, you're just kind of wandering around. So I remember back in, I started to practice in 1964 with a sokoji on 1881 Bush Street, an old synagogue.

[13:48]

This is Japanese I bought. right after the war, the second order of the war. The Japanese who were in internment in America saved their money and bought the old Sokoji Temple, which was maybe the first synagogue in San Francisco. Sokoji. So means San Francisco. San Francisco temple, Soko-ji. Ji is temple. And so the Japanese bought the old Soko-ji temple, and when they needed a priest, and to make a long story short, Suzuki Roshi became the priest. That's why he came to America.

[14:51]

The other reason is that he was very interested in seeing what was going on here and if he could maybe do something. There are a lot of Jewish boys and girls who turned the Jewish temple into a Japanese temple. Interesting. And also Pastry was a young Jewish woman's hostel. And so we tend to inherit these temples. So anyway, So Suzuki Roshi was our teacher.

[15:55]

And he attracted people. He didn't do anything. Because of who he was, somehow, people were drawn to his teaching. And what he taught was Zazen. And he didn't really teach anything else. He wanted to keep our practice as simple as possible. Nowadays, you know, after Tsuguroshi died, his American descendants expanded Zen Center. We actually bought this San Francisco Zen Center, while he was still alive, of course. And there was a lot of hustle and bustle, and everybody was energized.

[17:01]

When you're building something, people get energized. I always noticed that when we needed carpenters, they appeared as Zen students. And some of them continued, and others, when they finished their carpentry jobs, kind of disappeared back into the woodwork, so to speak, no pun intended. So, Suzuki Roshi was our teacher, and the way he taught was this kind of apprenticeship. This is pretty typical of Japanese Zen practice is apprenticeship. Master Dogen says you should have if you're a teacher you should have at least one and a half students.

[18:07]

My understanding of the teacher-student relationship is a teacher It's like, you know, when we have dharma transmission, the student who is being transmitted takes the place of Vajrajana Buddha. I am now Vajrajana Buddha. Oh, that's pretty egotistical of you. I am now Vajrajana Buddha, seated on the lotus throne of a thousand petals, and all my students. are seated on, each one is seated on the leaf. You see that expressed in magalas. So the teacher is like a rotating vajrayana, in a sense. Not really doing anything.

[19:14]

Just emitting light. Just emitting light. And the light is picked up by the students. And apprenticeship, the nice thing about the apprenticeship is that you live with the teacher. I mean, now it's difficult to do that, but in the olden days, it was easier. But still, it's possible. I always felt that I was an apprentice to my teacher, Suzuki. And he recognized that. And he did teach a lot. He gave talks about Buddhism and so forth.

[20:16]

And we learned that way. But the way we really learned from the teacher was that we watched how he moved, we watched how he sat down, how he stood up, how he handled his robes, how he put on his zoris, which we call flip-flops now. He never wore shoes. He didn't tie his shoes. Never wore shoes. And we received the teaching through our pores, through the way we interacted and so forth. The teaching, teaching, which is like speaking about the time, that's all good stuff. But the main teaching was always how you interact with your teacher and with your surroundings. how you interact with your teachers, with your main teacher.

[21:23]

And we also had other teachers as well. We had some good teachers in those days, back in the 60s. Suzuki Roshi passed in 71, December. The way he passed, you know, I always like to talk about this story, is that he had cancer and he was ailing. And for the last, in 71, it was not so easy to have contact with him. Especially in Tassahara. And because he was unable to move around like that. So, we had to run things by ourselves, pretty much. But we had, people came to help him. Chino Roshi, Chino Sensei, we called him. I call him the mystic.

[22:24]

Suzuki Roshi, you know, loved him. We all loved him. He was a great person. He was a mystic. Suzuki said, in our practice, we don't pay much attention to mystical stuff. because he was very pragmatic. But actually, Suzuki Roshi was a mystic too, but he would never admit it. He had mystical tendencies. Which is actually, his underlying persona was like that, but he would never admit that. So, and then we had Katagiri Roshi, who was Katagiri Sensei, and Yoshimura-sensei, then each one of them had a different way of teaching.

[23:27]

And so you could see that they were exemplifying their teaching, you know. Suzuki Roshi would come out of his little, at Sokoji, he had his office next to the zendo. which is a very nice room at Sakochi, 1881 Bush Street. You can walk by there sometimes. And he would come out of his office every morning, offer the incense, bow, sit up on the altar, which is quite a wide altar, and Kadigiri would sit on the opposite side. And... They went exemplified, although they both had Dharma transmission, but Scott Aguirre had Dharma transmission from a different teacher, different lineage. He came the year before I did to help Suzuki Roshi, and he did this every day, every morning, and every afternoon.

[24:41]

And you got the feeling that he was sustained by his routine, which I later called his mantra. His mantra was not repeating some word over and over again. Of course, our mantra is the heart chakra, which we repeat over and over again. But his mantra was in his actions, the way he moved and the way he... did his kind of routine, but you never felt that it was a routine. And his formality, you never felt that his formality was formal. It was always an informal formality. So it was a living thing and not a dead thing. And Suzuki Roshi's attitude was always to bring everything to life.

[25:43]

Everything you do bring it to life. And that way you yourself become, bring yourself to life as well. And you felt the same way about precepts. You know, we have 16 precepts and how you keep those precepts alive and not just dead stuff. not just following everything by rote or by, you know, don't do this, don't do that, don't do this, do that. But how you, we bring the precepts to life as our way of expression from inside, not from following rules. He understood and respected the rules that we call precepts.

[26:46]

But for him, real precepts are not dead precepts, but the live precepts, which he called our inmost request, that the precepts come from inside. I wouldn't say not from outside, because inside and outside, they are inside and outside, but they're also one thing. Inside and outside are one piece. So to let our attitude, our attitudes, our precepts, not just following rules. He also said that if you just follow the rules, that's called heresy in my honor. Heresy is kind of an extreme word.

[27:51]

There could be other terms, you know. Big mistake. So, the teacher, getting back to teacher-student, the teacher is like, well, I would say, I like to talk this way, that our body is a solar system. We are copies of the solar world. We're cosmic beings. The way we're constructed is like a small universe. Each one of us is like a small universe.

[28:52]

There's the sun called the solar plexus and all the satellites of our body and mind. Our hands and feet and arms and legs and body and so forth. These are the planetary satellites that rotate around the solar plexus. And the teacher is at the middle of our solar plexus called practice. And we are the satellites moving around the teacher. And that's how we get the understanding. So it's really good to have a good teacher. People, sometimes young students will come and they'll practice practice. for a month, you know, trying to get their legs in place. They say, can I teach? We're all teaching something, right?

[29:56]

Sometimes good teaching is like, don't do that, you know, don't follow that guy. So, what are the qualities of a good teacher and what are the qualities of a good student? qualities of a good student should be the same as the qualities of a good teacher. So when you study the qualities of a good teacher, you start to embody those qualities. The teacher can't give you something. The teacher can only show you something. So you observe the teacher. That's what our practice is, always observing the teacher. We talk about the teacher. And when we talked about Suzuki Roshi with each other, it was always with us. Great wonder and great respect and awe, because he didn't do anything spectacular.

[31:00]

He really didn't do anything spectacular. His ordinary activity was spectacular, just like our ordinary activity is spectacular. but we don't realize it. This is the problem. So when Suzuki Yoshi narrowed his practice down, it was very narrow practice, but it was very expansive practice at the same time. The more he narrowed down his practice, his activities, the greater and more expansive he became. That was the mystery of Suzuki Goshi. The simplest, you know, he was never in a hurry. He never felt that he was in a hurry to do anything. He was always right in time. Right in time. Always in time.

[32:02]

And always in good humor. He would scold people, but he'd always laugh at the same time. So everything was very serious and nothing was serious at all at the same time. So because everyone trusted him, Zen Center expanded greatly from sitting in the pews They had a big auditorium at Sokoji. They had a big auditorium. And he started sitting in the pews, in the auditorium, until they gave us a room upstairs for Zendo. Because people wanted that. He just did what people wanted. He didn't initiate stuff.

[33:08]

People said, well, can we do this? Can we do that? You know, can we? What about a monastery? Well, you want a monastery? Okay. It just inspired people. You know, I was thinking about, well, what is the main thing about our practice? Where does that come from? And I thought, inspiration. Without inspiration, it's just kind of dead. You're just doing stuff. It's hard, you know. Young people today are looking for something, of course. And we were looking for the same thing back in the 60s and 50s and 70s. Our teacher, you know, the way the practice was set up was the teacher, and if you wanted to practice, you came to Zen Zen Her, which was not, you know, it was not a business.

[34:25]

It was not a corporate business at that time. You come to Zen Zen Her, and you practice with the teacher and his students. And that's how you got the understanding. So nowadays, I'm not sure that young people are so attracted to a teacher. They have to be inspired by somebody to stay with the practice. Because there's so many practices now. At that time, back in the 60s, Zen Center was the only thing going. But now... There are more and more various kinds of practices. So in order to have a viable practice, for me, I like the teacher-student relationship, the apprentice style of relationship with a single teacher, which doesn't mean that there are not other teachers.

[35:31]

We used to talk back in the 60s about, in the 70s, about shopping. You know, you have your basket and you go to this center and you get some of those eggs, you know, and you go to that other center and you get some stuff, you know, and you put it all in your basket. But when you look in your basket, you don't really have anything. The only way you can have, really have the true Dharma is to do one thing thoroughly. And the more I've practiced over 50 years, over and over again, it's proven to me that to stay with one thing and do one thing thoroughly without adding stuff to it. People always want to add stuff to it because we have this expanding mind that wants to, that's curious and wants to add stuff to our practice because our practice is so bare.

[36:36]

Real practice is really bare. It's always that way in Buddhism. The monk's practices are really, in India, you know, you own, monk owns nothing except it's your own. A little to strain your water from the bugs, you know. And in India, you could not carry any money. You could not dig in the ground and grow crops and stuff like that. You just had to, because your practice depends on your virtue. Virtue and value. She talked about virtue and value. Value is comparative. It's like going into the dime store, and this thing is more valuable than this thing, and so we pay more and less, and so that's not practice.

[37:46]

I mean, it's included in practice, but practice is virtue, which means the incomparability of each individual with the source. No one can compare to you. You and the universe are what you are, and there's no comparison. So when you can find that, then you can teach. You don't have nothing to do with value. No matter who you are, you yourself are totally invaluable. And one person cannot be compared to another. This is called horizontal wisdom. Vertical wisdom is when you compare yourself to others.

[38:51]

We can't help it. We can't help comparing ourselves to others. That's life. Dualistic life. But our non-dualistic life is horizontal. Everything is equal. We're all equal. And at the same time, we're all different. So if we say, well, we're all equal and not realize that we're all different, honor the differences, that's dualistic. We're both equal and individually different. So our equality is our virtue. But so is our individuality. And the less we have, the possibility of true joy is possible. In order to practice, you have to have food

[39:58]

have to have clothing you have to have some place to rest your head and um a teacher maybe a teacher or a sangha you know people that you practice with buddha dharma sangha right three legs of the pot. You know, we have three legs of the pot. Buddha, Dharma, Sangha. If you only have Buddha and Dharma, the pot lists. If you only have two of the legs, or one, you know, if you have none of the legs, you fall into the fire. So the legs hold us up, you know, and then there's the fire,

[40:58]

underneath cooks us. We say the cauldron cooks sages. So you've got to get into the pot and get cooked. And the pot is a practice. Putting ourselves into the pot is our practice. And the legs that hold the pot up, the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Sangha. So without all three, it's not complete practice. So the other aspect is called commitment. This is the problem of our age with young people now, is commitment. Because there's so many eggs to put in your basket, yet you go from one egg to another.

[42:06]

You go from one practice to another, and you play with that for a while. When I say play, it means do something. I remember when I was in grammar school, we used to have these fire extinguishers on the walls. in a little glass case, and there was a sign that said, turn upside down to play. We were laughing. So, the cauldron is very important. That's the confinement from which you are cooked. You put all your eggs in one cauldron and hard boiled. Take them out just in time. Anyway, the good teacher does not hang on to his students.

[43:10]

The purpose of the teacher is to help each student define themselves. As soon as a teacher wants something from their students, that's a bad situation. the teacher is, you know, expressing the light of the Dharma. And as soon as the teacher wants something from the students, the relationship is over. So, you can't want anything. And a good teacher, you know, has a mind like a mirror. Somebody walks by and they may stay for a while and then they leave, but there's no, the mirror is not attached to any of the reflections.

[44:12]

The mirror just does what the mirror does. The teacher just does what he does or she does. And if the student's are attracted to that, that's fine. That's good. For as long as it needs to be. But nobody can say how long it needs to be. I mean, the teacher may say, well, you left, but you weren't ripe yet. But that's life, you know. You can't save people. We say, we vow to save. sentient beings, right? That's good. But actually, it's not me that saves them. So you can rest easy. Some people don't like that. They say, I take this vow to save all sentient beings, but I can't do that. So I'm not going to practice.

[45:15]

They do say that, some people. But that's a big mistake because you vow to save all sentient beings. That's enough. You don't have to go out and save them. Everybody has to save themselves. That's Buddhism. Everyone has to save. So the teacher is an example for people. That's why the teacher has to be pretty good. The teacher has to exemplify what they're talking about. And nobody can do that perfectly. Suzuki Roshi did it very well. But he also made mistakes. He always acknowledged his mistakes. And so we didn't see them as mistakes. We just saw them as practice. When we acknowledge our mistakes, we're always forgiven.

[46:18]

Because our life is life of mistakes. Mistakes. We live in a world of mistakes. No, if you look at it, one mistake after another. So we live the life of one mistake after another. But we forgive each other. If we ask for forgiveness, you always forgive us. And we're starting over all the time. But gradually, even though maybe one step forward and two steps back, little by little, something works. If we stay with practice through thick and thin, that's called practice.

[47:21]

People say... Oh, I don't feel so good today, so I think I'll sit Tha Zen. Or I feel really great, so I'm going to sit Tha Zen. It has nothing to do with your feelings. It does have something to do with it. We're not saying that feelings are bad or wrong, but Tha Zen is beyond our feelings. It has to be something beyond our feelings because our feelings are very fickle. And we get ruled by our feelings and our thoughts. We get... We become the victim of our thoughts and feelings. If you think about it. That's why we have something called psychiatry. So Zazen is beyond. We have this wonderful practice called Zazen, which is to let go of everything. Come back to zero. And then from zero... We can add 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10.

[48:29]

But the bottom line is zero. So that we don't, we have the opportunity to not be victims of our thoughts and feelings. We think we're going to think our way out of this. We're not going to sink our way out of this at all. What happens after you die? Well, bullshit. You don't know. We don't know anything. You know some little things, you know. We have to know certain things. And some things are very profound. No doubt. But the profundity is in the simplicity. There's a koan. Everything is one. Where does the wood go? Anyway, I don't know what time it is.

[49:50]

It seems like it's time. So thank you for inviting me to give this talk. There's so many things to talk about, but, you know, it all comes down to just this. Simplicity. very much sojourn roshi to cap the dharma talk we'll do the closing chant and then we'll move into a bit of q a if anyone would like to participate in that way you can raise your hand in the participants window but let's first do the the closing chant which you'll find in the chat window here in just a moment

[51:12]

May our intention equally extend to every being and place. Yet the truth will be in all of us. Weems are numberless, I vow to save them. Illusions are inexhaustible, I vow to end them. Dharma gates are boundless, I vow to enter them. Buddha's way is unsurpassable, I vow to become it. Great. So, our scheduled time, we've got about 12 minutes, and I see it's here first. Does anybody have... Hello?

[52:25]

Hi. So, Jim, thank you so much for your beautiful talk. Can you hear me okay? I can hear you well. Okay, great. One question. Good, thank you. How are you? Thank you for discussing in the beginning of your talk the pandemic. Definitely, every day is in our hearts and minds. And for a lot of us, the pandemic of racism is in our hearts and minds too and has been for a long time. And I'm wondering if you could speak to what predominantly white sanghas can do to do no harm to people of color, you know, given that in America, Most sanghas are white, and a lot of people of color, like myself, want to practice in those sanghas.

[53:34]

And I'm just curious if you had reflections on that question about how could you no harm? Yeah, I do have, you know, we talk about white privilege, you know, and so forth. I really don't like that term, although I understand it very well. You know, right now we're trying to legislate integration, right? That's good. I have nothing against trying to legislate integration, but that's still two things, us and And then an integration, right? So what is the integration? We should talk about what is the integration? What does integration look like?

[54:34]

So that's very personal. It's easy to talk about this and that, but it's really hard to actually interact in a personal way. with the dark and the light. How do you bring the dark and the light together? This is Buddhism. What is dark and what is light? There's no such thing as dark and light, even though there's dark and light. We're always looking at everything dualistically. If we want to see something in an enlightened way, we have to integrate the dark and the light. You know, if you, there is no such thing, really, but superficially there is. So we have to take into account, we can't say no, there's no difference. There's a big difference. But how you actually interact with each person is the way you bring everybody together.

[55:47]

In our small sangha in Berkeley, we have We have. See, that's dualistic right there. We have. We have them. The way we think and the way we talk are always dividing. So how do we bring all that together? How do we bring the dark and the light? Within the dark there is light. Within the light there is dark. This is our sutra. Light and dark is... really important how do we breathe within the dark there's the light and within the light there's the dark that's our koan so this is great you know it's a wonderful koan that we have how do we actually embrace right that's the point you can talk about about

[56:54]

legislation, which is helpful. Of course it's helpful. But the heart of it is how do we embrace? How do we really embrace? And that will take a long time, and it's very difficult because it's embedded in our psyche. The division is embedded in our psyche. But we have to get over that. We have to get over that. You know, this has been going on for so long. I mean, there's a lot to say about it, but I don't want to go beyond that. I just, for me, that's how... Because in a dark room, we say it's dark, but that's...

[57:55]

if we've been living in the dark, it's light. So it's all comparative. It's not... Dark people are light, and light people are dark. I never thought of myself as a white person. I have to tell you that. I'm Jewish. I'm not a white person. I'm not Irish. I'm not Scandinavian. When I was a kid... I lived on the beach, Long Beach, and I wanted to get as dark as I could because that was beauty to me. When I looked at people who would come to the beach with their shoes and socks on and their trunks and their white legs, it was repellent to me. their shoes and socks and their white legs.

[58:56]

So, and people thought I was a Mexican because I was so dark. And so I know what it's like to be treated as a Mexican. I was never treated as a black person. But, you know, I never had that problem. Mel, could I ask a question? Yes, please. Okay. Excuse me for jumping in. It's Nancy. I'll jump in. Please jump in. Okay. Okay. You know, in the sangha, we've been having so many really hard, difficult conversations And there's been this kind of request for feedback, as you said, to the mirrors.

[60:06]

So I see how I really, this is a conversation. This is a big conversation. And even the terminology of dark and light is very tender for so many people who actually, even when we celebrated Pride and someone was saying, yes, it's wonderful. It was a practitioner of color, a friend of ours. And she said, it's wonderful that you are able to come out of the closet, but we've always been out of the closet. We can't hide. when we are black skinned. So I think that even for you to be mistaken as a dark skinned person, that's not living an entire life of having hatred come your way. So, you know, this is the other conversation that's been coming up is living in this absolute realm and then what it is to live in this human realm where there is so much suffering

[61:24]

that white-skinned people have no idea of. So anyway, it's this wonderful, painful, difficult conversation. And I love a Tears question. How do we, predominantly white-skinned, white culture sanghas, where are we in this right now? How do we wake up? So anyway, thank you for letting me jump in. I wanted to see how a tear actually felt to your question, rather than me, the white-skinned person jumping in over her question, you know? So excuse me, a tear. Excuse me, Ojin. And I would say a tear Can we hear what you have to say?

[62:25]

Yes. Thank you. You know, I lived through the 20s. I lived through the 30s, the 40s, and so forth. And when I was back in the 30s, before the Second World War, I lived through the whole thing because I was born in 29. And, you know, I was persecuted as being Jewish in California. That was always hanging over my head. All the time. I mean, not all the time, but that was always there. You know, you see the people going to synagogue Saturday, you know, with their yarmulkes and their children and so forth. You couldn't do that back in the 30s. If you wore a yarmulke in the 30s in public? you'll be persecuted. That's why the men wore snap-brim hats.

[63:30]

Zen and Judaism are kind of opposite in some ways because the monk shaves his head as a sign of submission or a sign of non-attachment. the Jewish people wear hats because the Lord is humility. Humility. That's what that means. So, you know, even though I'm not black, I have experienced all this, a lot of stuff. Children, when I was I remember walking across the schoolyard when I was in grammar school, and a gang of kids said, you Jewish? And I said, well, yeah. Should I say so? I had to make a choice whether to say yes or no.

[64:37]

And they said, you killed Jesus. I said, I did. That's the kind of stuff that I had to go through. So it's not the same as being black, because you can't hide. I agree with that, totally. I'm trying to get your name. Yes, it's here. Thank you. Thank you both very much. I appreciate each of your comments. Yeah, I mean, what came up for me when Sojun was talking about dark and light is Zanjia Earthly-Emmanuel, from her writings and talks where she reclaimed the dark, you know, there's all the symbolism about dark and light, like, you know, like black and white. So that's what came up for me. And, Nancy, what you mentioned about, you know, the experience for a brief period, I also felt the same way.

[65:40]

Okay, that's maybe for a short period of time. I mean, I've been a member of CAKE for a long time, the Diversity Committee at the SESS Center, so I've contributed some suggestions myself. But coming into the SESS Center for the first several times, I mean, what struck me, Some things struck me about maybe the culture, like how there's just one acceptable culture, or maybe two, like Japanese culture, Japanese men, and then white upper middle class culture. And it's not okay to be loud or wear colors or express your individual culture in whatever way they need. So those have been things that I've been questioning or that have been hurtful for me or others. Yeah, there are many other feedbacks that I think we've provided, but I'm curious what the teachers... I also agree with what Sojin said about individual interactions, but also I think institutional, very intentional change is...

[66:59]

really necessary. So yeah, I was just curious about that. Thank you both very much. I appreciate your concern, I call it, about your background. For me, the thing that I really love the most is the diversity of a sangha. Once in a while, I go around and we ask everybody that's present in the sangha at the time, talk about their background, where they're from, what country their inheritance comes from. And it brings people together. It really brings people together.

[68:01]

This one's Irish and this one's from German. This one's Japanese and so forth. And we get to see, we get to feel somehow reveal this background, which is, I think, really important because each one of us comes from a certain background. And they're all, some of it are similar and some are really different. And to be able to all backgrounds and where everybody is is really important. That's what brings us together. And we have to learn how to, you know, not look at people in a funny way that are different from us, but to see, well, where is it that we can connect? Where can we connect?

[69:01]

And use that as a way of bringing us all together. To me, that's the most important thing. I just love it. The more diverse the sangha, the more I love it. If we have that kind of attitude, People will feel that. They have to feel it, you know. People are very sensitive, especially, you know, my experience with, I don't know what to call it, people of color, brown, black. I'll use the term black because that's what, why not? But My experience is that, why would anybody want to be white?

[70:04]

We don't think, you know, we have to get around from the other side. What's so good about being white? You know, we say, including people in the white community. Well, what's so good about that? So we don't question that. We just think that, well, we're white, and then we have the advantage, some kind of advantage. We do have certain advantages. White people have certain advantages. That's true. Absolutely. And until you feel that you are acceptable and have all the things that are you've been deprived of, it's hard to let go of yourself. Because the populations of the Zen Center, white people, have had the advantage of the dropouts.

[71:19]

The dropouts are the children whose parents... had everything, right? And so they were able to drop out. But if your parents don't have everything, my parents didn't have everything. But then you need to get up to that point where, before you can drop out. I talk about it. So, hi. We've got a handful of folks that still have questions. I want to acknowledge the time and make it fine if anyone needs to step away. I appreciate that. It also seems like there's a conversation still going here right now, so I'd like to...

[72:22]

Giusepina has had a hand up for quite a while, as has Carla and John. So if that's possible, I'd like to give Giusepina a moment to pose a question. Soja, is that okay with you? It's fine with me. Great. Hi. Can you hear me well? Yes, I can. Hi. This is Gi. The name is a little confusing sometimes. Say the name again. ghee, like the butter or... Ghee, yeah, okay. Yeah, yes. I don't know where ghee is. Yes, yes, yes. Exactly, that's the easiest way. But I just wanted to sincerely thank you. I found your talk to be truly inspirational. And now once we moved into the questions, I also wanted to thank Nancy and and Kodo as well so much because I'm sort of just been watching, you know, everything, the dialogues and the interactions, and I feel like the openness of being able to question, of being able to interrupt if you feel the need to, Nancy, or even if you consider it an interruption or not, I feel like that is...

[73:46]

that that really speaks to me if if that makes sense i feel like that's where that's where um how these conversations can actually be had had and not sort of um you know kept under the in in the dark if that makes sense i know that i i i definitely um at least the comments for for dark and light i definitely didn't necessarily uh see it as as something of the color itself. I viewed it differently. But once Nancy spoke that way, it almost brought it up in myself as well, where it's such a difference of perspectives and being able to always be so open to being challenged and to questioning and to learning. I just want to thank you all for that so much. But it was really a really powerful talk, a really important conversation. And like you said, it's very hard to talk about. And I think that there's never enough learning that can be done, especially because of what you said of where everything is so relative and sort of stepping away from that experience, if that makes sense.

[75:07]

But really, what I really wanted to do is just thank you. Thank Nancy, thank the San Francisco Zen Center, Kodo, everyone, because it's been truly inspirational, just watching everything, participating in the practice. And I'm extremely grateful, honestly. So thank you so much to all of you. And a tear. And a tear, yes. Right, exactly, for starting the conversation. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to leave that out for sure. Are your background from India? No, I'm actually Brazilian. Oh, Brazilian. Yes, Guy is just easier for mine. It's Guilherme. It's William. That's beautiful, Eddie. Yeah. Thank you, Guy. Carla. Hi, Carla. Hi, Susan. Nice to see you.

[76:09]

Can you hear me now? I can hear you. It's very high-pitched. How about now? Good. Better? Okay. Well, it's nice to see you. So, Jen, maybe I'll see you another time soon at Berkeley. But, you know, and I really do appreciate all of the dialogue and so forth. And I do want to acknowledge that people's cultural perspectives and background do play a part in what they hear. when you hear words like dark and light and whatever. But my question is around the teacher aspect. Yes. And, you know, what kind of... For folks who are not of a light-skinned body, what would you suggest in terms of finding a teacher? I mean, I think I have a good teacher, but... You know, connecting with a teacher and talking with them about issues like this and how to move forward with that would be a question I'd like to hear maybe your thoughts on.

[77:21]

Well, yeah. Challenge your teacher. You know, it's not like the teacher's filling your cup all the time. Challenge the teacher. If you have something that you feel is really vital, bring that up. And the teacher has to be able to deal with stuff, you know. A good teacher has nothing in their mind. If somebody comes to Dokusan with me, I have nothing in my mind. My mind is totally empty. And then I'm able to take in what they're saying without... distortion of my own cluttered mind. So I would say challenge a teacher.

[78:23]

And then see what the teacher's worth by challenge. I don't mean, you know, like bring out your sword. That's not what I mean. But present what you... The teacher will really appreciate what you are, what's vital to you. Don't, you know, put it out there and see what happens. And if you don't feel the teacher, the teacher should be able to bring you or give you the koan that is yours. If the teacher is just, you know, giving you answers, That's not good. It's okay, but it's not good. It's not teaching. Teaching is the teacher gets you to see what your actual koan is because our koan is our life. The dinjo koan is our practice.

[79:27]

A koan that comes up for you each moment. And what a koan is, is understanding the oneness of duality and the duality of oneness. Otherwise, it's just talk. So, thank you for that. Are you saying that we do not have to have a teacher who looks like us to help us with the Dharma, Sangha, and Buddha? You know, Dogen says... When you meet the right teacher, don't worry about what color they are or what sex they are or all that stuff. Just get the Dharma. Thank you. You have beautiful skin, by the way. That's what I look like. Thank you. Thank you, Sergeant. You're welcome.

[80:28]

And one more. John. Thank you, Kuro-san. Souza Roshi. Wow. Thank you. Good to see you. Thank you. I asked a question of Abbot Steve, and I never got a response. So I thought maybe I would try to ask of you too. Suzuki Roshi, I think he, towards the end, he said something like, oh, I have cancer, so now I can eat anything. I remember that. I was there when you said that. What does that mean? I don't understand. I thought we always did anything anyway, so I didn't know why. When you have cancer, sometimes you have a certain diet. And he did. I think the doctor, I don't know what he told him, but he said, you should eat these things, don't eat those things. And Suzuki actually liked eating. And so Wendy said,

[81:31]

I can eat anything I want now. That was his telling us that he was going to die. He said, I'm going to die. Don't worry about what you want to eat. This is what doctors tell you when you have cancer. If they think you're old and you're going to die, they say, you can eat whatever you want now. Like me. So I'm sure that's what he meant. Yeah, so Steve arrived when Suzuki Roshi died, so he never did have the opportunity to practice with him. So he practiced with me instead.

[82:33]

Thank you, John. Thank you, Sojin Roshi. Thank you, everyone. And thank you for everyone who stayed on for the conversation. I appreciate you being here, celebrating the holiday with San Francisco Zen Center. Sojin, if you'd like to offer any closing words, since the closing chant has already been done, we can all say goodbye. And everyone should be able to unmute after that and say farewell if they like. I just want to say, you know, I have been avoiding conversations about race. Because they're always... But I would be happy to do... Sorry, Sojin Roshi. Let's unmute you again. I was too soon with the unmuting everyone, so there was an echo.

[83:44]

Okay, I did it. But I have been avoiding conversations about race because they're always about comparing the whites to the blacks. And I don't want to get into that. I just want to... I just... I just... You know, if you are genuinely, if love is your genuine mode, just expressing love is when you meet somebody to just allow that love to be expressed, then people will be able to find each other. That's really all I can offer, you know. I keep looking at this picture of Carla.

[84:54]

That's about that to me. Just treat people decently. Thank you, Sojournoshi. And thank you for hanging in there with the conversation. And if everyone would like, you can unmute and say farewell if you wish. Thanks so much for being here. Thank you, Sojin Mel. Thank you. Thank you, Sojin Roshi, yes. Thank you, Sojin Roshi. You're welcome. Hi, Sojin. So good to see you. You too. So long to everyone. Bye. Okay. Time for lunch. I'm going to tune out.

[86:03]

Unmute. Unmute. Thank you, Sojong. Thank you. Thank you, Sojong Roshi. Thank you so much and thank you to everyone for this really important conversation and living teaching. struggling with teachings and living teachings. Thank you so much.

[87:06]

Nancy, and I'm not sure how to say your name. I've been, is it for you? Who? Yes. Okay. It's, I mean, I was going to say that hearing you and Nancy talk and hearing you every Sunday, it's truly, truly inspirational. I understand that it must be, it seems as though it's a challenging time and challenging conversations and I just feel like the approach, if that's the right word, in general, from the first conversation, I forgot who had done it, and I remember Tova had challenged his entire conversation, and just that interaction and the understanding that there's more to learn from, I forgot who the speaker was, and it really did. Paul. Yes, Paul. I'm so terrible with names.

[88:09]

I'm really sorry. But it was the moment where it was like, wow, this is almost like this is the place for me in a way, if that makes sense. It's like, wow. To have that sort of ability to be challenged and to understand that there's... It's never... You know what I mean? We're never there, if that makes sense. So I'm... And this talk with Sojin really inspired me. And I wanted to actually talk with all three of you to try to find a teacher and to try to, because I feel like this was the sort of moment where, you know, I want to get in the cauldron and be cooked, if that makes sense. Yay! Seems like the right fire, you know, if that makes sense, or the right cauldron. I'm not sure how. I still have so much to learn. So I would love to just start it. to start a dialogue, to have some guidance and to just, you know, be part of it.

[89:09]

I was lucky enough to start this with reading Beginner's Mind. And then I saw the list, you know, entering the stream is what I'm currently on now and just trying to, but I feel like it really is in the practice itself. And Beginner's Mind also talks about it too. So I'd love to... to contact. I feel like there's a contact on the website, so I would really love to continue the conversation with you because I feel like there's just so much to learn and so much conversation. Welcome to the podcast. Welcome to the podcast. I need a space here. Good for the flavor. Exactly. Coming back. Of course, no. Thank you for having these for free every morning. It's honestly been it's been life-changing. I mean, that everything felt like this. I mean, I just recently graduated and we're sort of found with all this time at home. And it's like, it's unbelievable how it all came together.

[90:12]

And, you know, there was just this drive to find out more about Zen specifically for some reason, because I've always... help me if that makes sense and then i wanted to see where is where does the meditation itself come from so i was lucky enough to already almost come from zazen and now i'm looking to to understand it more if there is if that's the right look right here yeah yes exactly um Yeah, I'm sorry. I talk a lot. That's another thing. Well, I'm sorry. That's okay. That's a big part of our culture, actually. No, but that's part of it as well, you know, not filling in with words and understanding that silence is okay. And that's what I... One of the...

[91:14]

many things that I know that I have to learn and to practice. So I'm really looking forward to finding that, you know, to finding a... Well, you come close when you can. And Fu, the class that you and Kyoto Angel Williams are teaching is public, isn't it? So you can sign up on the website. It's going to be a wonderful class. It begins July 24th. Yeah. I'll tell you about it. Yeah, so look at online programs. I think it's called Radical Dharma. Is that the name of the actual class? Yeah. Yeah, it's already on right now, so don't forget signing up. That's great. And we're lucky. Very lucky. She likes us. Okay, I'm going to leave so we can let the host free the host. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Great to meet you. Thank you. Everyone was great.

[92:14]

Everyone still is on here. Yes. I know. Right. Thank you so much. There's a dozen people. They're hanging in there. These are real practitioners. Okay. Have a great day, everyone. Soon. Yes, for sure. I'll see you tomorrow. I'll see you tomorrow. Is it G? No. G. Oh, like the butter. Okay. Exactly. Yes. Yes. Thank you so much. Take care.

[92:45]

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