This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good evening. Good evening. Sound system working okay? Yes. Good. Good. As with many of you know, but maybe some of you don't know, Brother David Standal Rust, a Benedictine monk for over 50 years, and myself, Richard Paul Heller, are teaching a workshop right here next door on the spirit of practice. We hadn't upon that title, it quits suddenly and quickly without much thought.

[01:02]

But we've taught the workshop many years now with the same title. And it is one of those utterly apt, inexhaustible titles. And it's utterly apt in that whatever road leads us to explore the spiritual in its many forms. It draws us into a sensibility of intimacy and exploration and discovery. A renewal and an inquiry in and dipping down. Anyway, that's what we'd like to talk about this evening. And what we'd really like to do is have you do most of the talking. We would like to... say a little and try to respond a lot to your questions about practice, about spirituality.

[02:09]

So here's how we'd like to get. We're both going to read a poem by Yuri Oliver, the same one. And we're going to make some brief comments from our traditions. Although I do need to let you know that Robert David was a student here at Tassahara, quite soon after it became a Zen captain, and came away with one of the greatest compliments you can get in Zen, which was that he was acknowledged as a good dishwasher. Just so you know, if you come here as a student and someone says you're a good dishwasher, You can stand up a little straighter. You've just received quite an accolade. This poem is called Pray. It doesn't have to be the blue eyes. It could be weeds in a vacant lot.

[03:14]

Or a few small stones. Just pay attention. Then patch a few words together And don't try to make them elaborate. This isn't a contest, but a doorway in the thanks and the silence in which another voice may speak. Sometimes in our exploration of the sacred, we want to find the extraordinarily pristine ideal transcendent experience. But in the language of Zen, everything is sacred and everything is nothing special.

[04:20]

So we Zen practice in an ordinary way We attend to everything as if it was both something special and something ordinary. And to my mind, this is what Mary Oliver is alluding to. It doesn't have to be some exquisite flower. It could be something much more modest. In fact, it could even just be a few stones. And then you don't embellish it into something extraordinary. You can just relate to it as a few stars. And in that, the ingredient of attention, we give attention. And something's received. This giving and receiving. In the language of Buddhism,

[05:22]

direct involvement in the interconnectedness of all we. In out of this arises a sensibility. And then traditionally the word prayer would not hear. But this sensibility of giving and receiving of Actualizing the essence of the spiritual in the activity. I was still going to send you the finder of this show, let's say. Actualizing the fundamental point. Just pay attention. And in that paying attention, notice, acknowledge, experience. But don't get carried away. Just a few words.

[06:24]

It's not competition. You're not trying to prove a point. Prove how wonderful you are or whatever. Commonplace is wonderful. In fact, it's sacred. And let the experience undo the incessant narrative that's declaring its preferences, what it has to say about the past and the future as well as the present. To let that be unarmed by the activity of now. A silence. An out of that silence, the sound of the crooked part of everything.

[07:32]

And the crickets are offering us their evening chorus and praise of everything, including us sitting here. Thank you. Paul and I like to use hold. We also found that it's always helpful to read a poem more than once. And so I'm going to read it once more before I get my own little comment on it. It's called Praying. Praying. It doesn't have to be the blue iris. It could be weeds in a vacant lot. Or a few small stones. Just pay attention. Then patch a few words together and don't try to make them elaborate.

[08:41]

This isn't a contest. It isn't a contest, but the doorway into thanks and a sign into a silence in which another voice may speak. That seems to me that ending, that paying attention is a doorway into a silence in which another voice may speak. That seems to me helpful to lead us into an understanding of what preap means. It is paying so much attention that we get silent, and in this silence, listen to what life is saying to us.

[09:47]

It doesn't have to be a blue iris. Life is obviously very splendid. A few weeds will do, or even just a few stones will do. The important thing is to pay attention. And when we are paying attention, then this very paying of attention is a doorway into a silence in which another voice may speak. Another voice means another voice from our soul. And what is that other voice? That is life speaking to us, mystery speaking to us. Iris is obviously mysterious and glorious, but so are weeds and so are few stones.

[10:47]

And anything that we pay attention to, this very paying of attention can become a listening, to what it wants to say to us. And there we have already two aspects of prayer, the silence and the listening. And prayer is also a doorway into meaning, to finding meaning. And whenever you have meaning, whenever you speak about meaning, you speak about something that speaks to you something that has a message for you and we could call that a word but in the widest sense an iris or weeds or rocks or anything that you pay attention to becomes a word that speaks to you and that word comes out of silence so silence is also important for meaning because without silence there is no word and without word there is nothing that has meaning

[11:57]

And then there is a third thing that is necessary for us to find meaning, and that is understanding. Because if there's word and silence going on somewhere and you don't understand, then still you don't find meaning. So those three. And the understanding is a process by which you so deeply listen to that word that it takes hold of you and leads you back into the silence. And when it really understood, you're back there in the silence. And therefore, this is a general human experience. Everybody can have that. And in the different traditions, you have different ways of speaking about these dimensions. There's a lot of talk about silence in Zen, of course. In the Christian tradition, it's called the prayer of silence. Very similar.

[12:58]

But it has different forms, it can be very similar. Basically it's the same, letting yourself down into that silence. Then in the Christian tradition we call it living by the word. Living by the word of God. That means tasting it, smelling it, listening to it, hearing it, touching it, seeing it of course. with all our senses being nourished by this word that is that great mystery that we find in the iris and in the beads and in the rocks. And then the third world is the world of prayer is the understanding. And that is called, with a rather fancy name, contemplation in action. Because you understand by doing it. Before you do it, you're not understanding, you're overstanding.

[13:59]

By doing, you get into the thing. Every teacher knows that when you tell the students something, it was in one ear or the other. When you show them something, there's a little better chance that they will remember it. But when you let them do it, some action, then they will really understand because they get into it. And that is the third world of prayer in the Christian tradition called contemplation action or understanding the love of God from within. You act lovingly and you understand the love of God from within. God is loved and you understand God from within. It would be interesting since you have the Silence, so obviously, if there's anything that comes to mind that corresponds to the other two, I'm sure it's there, but if it has a special name or is specially cultivated.

[15:02]

There's a couple of particular notions, and Dogen liked to use the phrase actualizing, and then, as I said, he would say actualizing the fundamental point. That in the doing, in the doing, something is actualized. which is maybe a more helpful word than understanding, because in English, understanding is almost implicitly a cognitive process, whereas the doing is an embodied experience in the widest sense of the word embodied. It means the same, but it's a better, more useful word in the context. Yes. And then the other particular notion in Zen, you know, if we say form and then... rather than use the word emptiness, I'd rather use the original word, which is shunyata, which can be involved. It's so utterly dynamic, there's nothing in it that's fixed.

[16:07]

But it's filled with aliveness. It's hard to get that from the word emptiness. This is filled with aliveness. So if you think, a particular form of a moment And then this abundant dynamic aliveness. And is that the fullness, emptiness and fullness? Yes. The emptiness and the fullness. And as we've been saying, in Zen the interaction between the two is the koan. And the koan is actualized. and realized. So it's not so much that it's understood, but the dynamic relationship is experienced directly. And in the approach to that full experience, the word koin means obvious example.

[17:10]

Life is an obvious example of the interplay. And since we agree on this as being the interaction with the mystery, and that's really what prayer is, it's so different from what people usually mean by prayer. Like the little boy whom the mother asks, have you said your evening prayer? And he says, well, mom, there are certain evenings when I just don't need anything. Right. Because we always think that prayer is asking for something. And if you don't leave anything, what if you pray? But in this context, it's life. Yes. In all its aspects. Yes. So that's our core proposition. And we'd be very happy to hear you. Of course, we could sit here and expound it. And if you don't say anything, we won't.

[18:12]

But we much rather hear how this registers for you, what it evokes. Yes. Maybe you don't like this definition of Zen or Christianity. And if you could, please, if you could speak a lot, then the mics will pick it up and also we'll hear it. What is the... Is it useful to have certain structures around prayer? Like rituals or something to follow? Or... And on the other hand, what's the balance between... Following a structure of how to pray, like learning how, or just kind of making it up.

[19:21]

Like the freedom of whatever comes intuitively. Wonderful question. Can you summarize it? Okay. The function of structure within the relationship to prayer and I guess also in the relationship to Zen practice. Maybe say something about Zen practice, sir. Okay. Zen practice, we often talk about formal Zen practice. And when we talk about formal, we mean it's formed. It has a particular structure, and within that particular structure, there's a very intentional, detailed way of engaging. Enter with this foot. Stop here and bow like this. And if you're still listening, we'll say, and here's exactly how you bow.

[20:21]

Here's where your elbows are. Here's where your fingertips are. Here's how you move your body. And that's just getting in the door. And then... And then this structure of Zazen, it has within it certain descriptions that we can say are anatomical, and then certain descriptions that we can say are dispositive. And balance is a great notion. The body can be balanced. The weight of the body is over the sit bones. on this position, can be balanced. Similarly upright, open.

[21:22]

P.K. S.I. Ngo, I've got recently a quote from him, and he said that without an appreciation for shunata, that asana cannot be thoroughly engaged. So for those of you who go here doing a yoga retreat, this is, I'm sure you know who the K.S.A. Edgar is. So for him, even in the structure, in the form of asana, and so within the structure, but paying attention. And in the paying attention to the details that are offered, something that goes beyond details. And this modality of corrective attention, receptive experience, this place itself out all throughout the very modalities of Zen.

[22:28]

That distinction between formal prayer and informal prayer is also always there in the Christian tradition. And formal prayer is sometimes the ritual, so it's not yet words, but the ritual, as you describe, but within that ritual, within that ritual, very frequently a form-related prayer. There are advantages to saying your own, putting it in your own words that can also be ritualized, like a circling, we can see a circling sitting around or a church, the convocation, and then everybody's invited to say, express their thanks in some words, and then everybody responds

[23:34]

thanks be to God, or something like that. So it is formalized, but within it, there is room for your own expression. Or you have very old prayers, like the Lord's Prayer, that goes really back to the first century, and has a state form. And that's the problem then, that after so many centuries, the words don't quite fit anymore. So they have to really think what does that really mean and how but it's almost like putting on a garment that has been worn by your ancestors several generations and you put it on you feel differently and you walk differently and so even though it's not very comfortable or it doesn't even exactly fit you and that could be also with those former prayers, like the Lord's Prayer or the ancient prayer.

[24:36]

I'm just thinking about affiliation and the importance of affiliation, the danger of affiliation, and how that affects, how that relates to prayer, if that's something you can speak about. When you think of affiliation, affiliated with With what? Well, so with a certain way of praying, with a certain... So how major religious traditions traditionally are centers of affiliation for a lot of people. Is that important, the preservation of prayer, something like that? The place of affiliation. Yeah, yeah. In other words, if I understand correctly, There's a certain way and certain times and certain forms in which Muslims pray. And by following these forms, you are associated with the Muslim community?

[25:44]

Yes, I mean that. And I also mean the loss of affiliation, because I think there's a trend toward people being wanderers without affiliation. Yes. We are in this I think in some respects enviable position nowadays that we know many different traditions and can come to know many different traditions and so we can take from them whatever helps us in the basic human task of interacting with that great mystery into which we are immersed as human beings, with which we are confronted. That is the basic human spirituality. And that expresses itself then in many different forms. And so, those of you who are in yoga, I don't know to what extent you're just practicing hatha yoga for almost gymnastics.

[26:50]

More likely, you are also entering into the spirit of yoga and with Christian prayer you are entering into Christian spirituality but we have the opportunity to pick and choose it's a great opportunity but it's also a problem because it can become uprooted And uprootedness is terrible. It's terribly difficult. So the wanderer has great difficulties with many, many more people than not have these days. The original meaning of the word Catholic meant universal. And it's a affiliation we would hope

[27:52]

in its most functional, helpful sense, it allows us to benefit from the wise and compassionate practice of the generations before us. And so we take that as a guide, a support, a suggestion, and we are affiliated in that regard. Because if we don't give ourselves to it, We don't touch the depth. And then we need to pay close attention. Is our relationship to it exclusive? It can be exclusive from others. We are the right way, and those who are not us, and we decide what that is, are not the right way. And in this exclusive way, causes all sorts of problems. Now, if we see that this is a way that for a whole set of reasons we're personally drawn to and in full engagement opens us to a way that is foundational to always.

[29:14]

And such the title of our workshop the spirit of practice, in the way we're using language, always have practice. And we're trying to explore, discuss the spirit of them all. But I assume we know the particulars of the religions. We're trying to touch what you might call What is religious or spiritual, but not reclaimed to knowing the particulars of the great religions of the world. And so many people today, for instance, people come out of the Jewish tradition, they are ethnically Jews, But uprooted from the Jewish tradition, they say, well, they are not connected with that spiritually.

[30:21]

And with many other traditions, also many, many Christians, baptized Christians, the Christian thing means nothing to me since Sunday school and so. And that's some difficulty. But the positive aspect is that it kind of forces us to go a little deeper to the general human level of spirituality, from which all these different traditions are only expressions at different times. But the common ground is, as you said, Catholic in the sense of all-embracing, and way back in the fourth century already, they defined what the Catholic faith is, and they said, The Catholic faith is what has been believed by all, at all times, and in every place. Well, of course, they were only talking about Christians, but we can take this and say, our faith is what has been believed by all human beings at all times and in all places, and faith isn't believing something, but is...

[31:35]

Trust is existential trust, trust in life ultimately. And life is that mystery, total mystery to us. It comes from, we have to grapple with women, we belong to it, we have a relationship to it. And that is really the basic faith, this trust in life. Yes, I wanted to get back to your commentaries on the poem. And you took exception to the word understanding. And what I wanted to find out is, it seems that there's a, based on what you were both saying, that this whole concept of understanding is a distinct difference between, this is a question, between the two religions, the two spiritual paths. On the one, we're talking about prayer being silence and paying attention.

[32:41]

And then on the other one, we're talking about prayer being silence, paying attention, and understanding. It seems as soon as we get into this area of understanding, that we're popping ourselves out of our hearts and into our heads. And then we get back to this, in the Bible, of course, it says, in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God. And that whole thing of getting into liturgy, and into understanding, intellectualizing the whole process. But it seems that, based on what you're saying, that no, that's not what Zen is about. That there's a whole different way of assimilating that information. And it goes beyond this. It's on an entirely different path than that of understanding. So I want to try, is this, in fact, a major distinction between these two paths? If you take that, I call it the Alman traditions, it's Judaism, and it's Christianity, it's Islam, they are the Western traditions.

[33:52]

All of them together have this emphasis on understanding. But if you get stuck in the intellectual aspect, all three of them will tell you that is only a path, that is only a stepping stone. The real thing is the immersion in the mystery. And the mystic aspect in all three of these traditions, the rest of the religion, the mystic aspect is, can't say anything about it. It's beyond words. And that is really the core of it. So, you are right. This is very much emphasized and stands very much in the foreground. But if you really get into it, it's meant to lead you beyond. And in the beyond, we meet again. Or below. In the beyond, we meet again. And this is why we would both say,

[34:56]

action. Because the living of it, something is made manifest. And if you just think of that simply in terms of the body, mind, the energy of being are all given over to this, then in that giving over, there's full reception, too. The immersion is fully involved. And so, in both traditions, the actualizing is a very significant part. Yes, you specifically took exception when he said the word understanding. And I find in total alignment with what you're saying, because, yes, of course the goal of these is the same, but it seems that the path is really distinctly different.

[36:03]

Well, let me off with this. So, as we were discussing this, Brother David took the word understanding, and then he played with the word. And he quoted another spiritual teacher as saying, well, usually we think of understanding as like we're standing over it, understanding it. But how about standing under it and being settled down into it? So both paths, even in the Christian tradition, there is not knowing that And silence is one aspect of not knowing. So it's not usually experienced.

[37:04]

And I fit it into the context of the world I formulated with my thinking. Step out of that world and in Christian terms, be born again, enter the kingdom of heaven, enter the now of being, and a similar proposition or dynamic is proposed within Zen. Always we have to be cautious with language. As we move from language to language, we would look for a term, a verb, an adjective, a word that fully represents the sensibility that was represented.

[38:11]

Just the very same way, earlier on, I qualified the traditional, the usual Western word, English word, of emptiness. And I said, not quite. Let's put emptiness and fullness and then we get closer to the term in Sanskrit. So I would suggest to you, similarly in Christianity, the English word understanding is in the service of a sensibility that maybe it doesn't fully represent. But we do want to maintain that in practice the two concepts can be quite different. And that's your main concern. They are very different from one another. But only in the form. And only in the form, not in what is really at work.

[39:17]

And what is really at work, ultimately, in both traditions, is always that basic human trust in life. And that is faith, the universal, what we call faith, everywhere. And whatever we have in differences, if it doesn't lead to that basic trust in life, and in the mystery, in the action within, It's miserable too. And of course, especially with all these doctrinal points and emphasis on doctrine in the Christian tradition, right so far that one can call it, in many cases, aberration. And as you go back from it, that's true with every tradition. It has to renew itself again and again from its sources. So after you have all these very sophisticated theologically notions, you say, wait a moment, let me start.

[40:20]

And then you go back, what's the basis? So I have a question about shimika. And I really like the word, because I grew up in India, and I see two words in the shimya, which means zero, and ta, which means nest. So it's zero nest. I wanted to get your perspective on what exactly is Shunyata and how can one get there? That's for me? No, that's for both of us. Is it different for different people? First of all, let's take the easy part.

[41:25]

I can't want to get there. So we can relax. Say first of all what it is because it's a technical term, no? Yes. Are you familiar with the term Marx? The characteristics that are significant aspects of it. And so the characteristics are dynamic, interactive, and without a fixed unchanging being. That's the quality of Shunika. And constantly in our human experience, we're formulating a fixed notion.

[42:26]

Actually, we're always formulating notions, and then our tendency is to grasp them and make them fixed. And when we make them fixed, we're denying, we're ignoring the dynamic nature. And we've been ignoring that this is a momentary compound of conditions and circumstances. Thich Nhat had coined this wonderful word, interbeing. It's always the interplay of many characteristics and many conditions and causes. And this is Fibritan. And when we talk about silence or stillness in the Zen world, what we're really talking about is not grasping at the constructs that our human consciousness is prone to create.

[43:26]

It's not even stopping the construct. It's simply not grasping at it. And if we don't grasp at it, Clarity arises. And the clarity that arises is chosen. It becomes evident. It becomes what is seen in the moment. Those three aspects, the dynamic, the interactive, and the non-fixed, but fluid, fluid, That is very strongly present in grateful living. And for Benedictine monks, that is kind of the center, you know, grateful living. And we always express it in three very simple words. Stop, look, go. First you have to stop because otherwise you will be sort of drawn into this automatic...

[44:37]

running of everyday life. You have to build in little stop signs. Every so often you stop just for a split second. Before you open your computer, you put your hands on it. That's long enough, just like that. That was stopping off. And then the second thing is you look. And what are you looking for? That means not only looking, but listening, being open with all your senses. What is it that life is at this present moment offering? Life is offering you an opportunity. We can't be grateful for everything. We're grateful for living. There are dozens of things that everybody of you can think of at the moment that nobody can be grateful for. For world hunger or degradation of the environment. personal unfaithfulness, all these things.

[45:37]

Nobody can be careful. But in every moment, we can stop and look for the opportunity. Because the opportunity is the gift within every gift. The opportunity. What opportunity is life offering me? Most of the time, it's the opportunity to enjoy. And we overlook it because we haven't stopped. So we're rushing on and there are all these opportunities. Enjoy breathing. Enjoy feeling that you're standing with your bare feet on a cool floor. Put a little sense behind in your backside and feel that you're sitting comfortably and sort of things. We forget that. The opportunity to enjoy what often is when something is offered to us for which we cannot be grateful it's the opportunity to do something about it or to learn something from it or to grow by it that may be very painful but it is a gift for which we can be grateful and how do we show ourselves grateful by goal that's the first thing do something with it and right then and there

[46:48]

because they stop, look, go. It's also what you tell the children when they cross the street. So first stop, because otherwise you run into the traffic. Then look, is something coming? And if nothing is coming, go right away, because if you stand around by the blind door, there's the next thing coming. So after we are at what? And look for the opportunity, and then avail yourself. You show yourself grateful by doing something with the opportunity that life is offering you. Someone over here? So, I'm curious about the last song of the poem, The Voice. So, Brother David mentioned a little bit about it, and my sense is that this voice is God, divine, something that is, I mean, everything. And I'm curious about what the Zen tradition would say what this voice is. And if you could, if Baba David could explain more about the voice.

[47:52]

Has everybody heard this? Can you summarize it? A reference to the last line of the poem, and a silence in which another voice might speak. And Brother David said something about the Christian perspective on this and that I seemingly But here's what I'm gonna say now actually if you think about it. Can you talk about the crickets? Thank you. What did you say? You talked about that. Well, I didn't talk about the crickets. First of all, I just pause and let us all hear the obvious. And that's what I would say. When we stop imposing our version of reality on what's happening, what's happening happens.

[48:52]

As if it was another voice. I mean, what's happening is always happening, but we're imposing something upon it, and when we stop imposing upon it, it's like, there's a revelation, there's a realization. And I offered the symphony of this crickets. And I would say to you, the more we attend to it, and the more thoroughly we try to hear it, and we hear the different rhythms, and how they move, and how they interact, and we hear the tones. or the different sounds, it speaks more loudly. But I would also add the giving of attention invites.

[49:59]

So maybe we can say subjectively It's like another voice speaking, but really it's more intimate than that, and it's more abiding in that. The Krishna vision has developed this with greater tension, and that is actually where the word God comes from. God is originally, is not masculine or feminine, it's a neuter word, and means... That which is called upon, that's really what it says, or that which calls us, you could also say, that with which it can be in dialogue. And that is an aspect of this mystery of life that the Christian tradition has particularly developed, or the three Amman traditions, the theistic traditions have developed that very much.

[51:06]

that you can be in a relationship with that great mystery. You can be in relationship with it. And listening is the most important aspect of it, being open and listening. But it is a real I-thou relationship that Martin Buber has developed. And it's not the generic aspect of all our human relationships, but it is something that constitutes us in our being human, being... When I say I, this is what Martin Luther, for instance, says, when I say I, presuppose a thou. Just to say I means that presuppose a thou. And then somebody could say, yes, but that is the mother originally, and then it's already other the house that we think, reading during your life.

[52:07]

Yes, but there's more to it. And you can find this more to it when you think of the fact that you think of your life not as a hodgepodge of episodes, but as a story. Every one of us can't help. We think of our life as a story. And if it is a story, we are telling it something. We are living our life by telling step-by-step our story to someone. And when we fall in love or otherwise come very close to another person, we want to tell them that story. No, we can't say it in words, but somehow we want to get it across. And we never get it across. We can never get that full story across to anyone. And that is why we say... It's more than all the human relations. It's that relationship, the ultimate relationship.

[53:11]

And that is what we call God. And that is the voice that speaks to us when we become very silent. But St. John says in the New Testament, how can you say that you love God whom you don't see if you don't love your neighbor whom you see? And so we can say, how can you claim that you're hearing God's voice if you're not even listening to that cricket? Maybe one last question. Mentioning where Mary Oliver says, just a few words.

[54:30]

Remarking on the choice of just a few, rather than 15 paragraphs. And asking for a few words. Well... I think I've already mentioned in passing that a real word, it comes out of the silence. If it doesn't come out of silence, it's just chit-chat. And we make a clear distinction. We know that if it's an exchange of words, that's one thing. I met somebody in the hall and we had an exchange of words. That's a very different thing from saying we sat down and we had a real dialogue. We really talked with them. Very different. And the dialogue is not really an exchange of words, but it is an exchange of my inner silence with the inner silence of the other.

[55:39]

And we're using words because it helps. And if it's not necessary, only to the extent to which it's necessary, we use the words. And when you really have a friend whom you deeply understand, you can sit there And just be quiet and say nothing at all. And these words, that's why she says just a few words, no more than necessary. And if you don't need any at all, order better. I think that's how it could be understood. And I would add to that. As we keep talking, as we add more words, we're inclined to... we're talking more about the world according to me. When we're offering commentary on the experience, it says more about me than the experience. And in that precision of few words, we can't stay close.

[56:49]

And sometimes even When we want to say something that's deeply important to us, the few words. Once I did a funeral, and it was for someone who was a poet and a writer, and his friends came, and they quoted beautiful pieces, and they read poems, and they made these wonderful articulate eulogies. And then his mother stood up, and she took a deep breath, And she was silent for quite a while. And then she said, he was a good son. And the room just went deeply silent. Those words said so much, you know. They had depth, you know. So that kind of few words, you know.

[57:54]

The few words that we can give our whole life to. Thank you very much. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

[58:30]

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