you. joining us, the Saturday Dharma Talk with San Francisco Zen Center.

[05:30]

Speaker for the day at the invitation of our head of practice is Doshin Mako Vocal, who began practicing at SFCC in 1997 and in 2002 ended a teaching position to enter 10 years of monastic practice at Tassahara. Doshin was ordained by Ryushin Paul Haller in 2004, Shuso in 2009, and then Doshin landed at Austin Zen Center in 2013 and now serves as the head teacher there. We will begin with the sutra opening verse, which you can find in the chat. Please follow along with microphones muted. An unsurpassed penetrating and perfect Dharma is rarely met with even in a hundred thousand million kalpas, having it to see and listen to, to remember and accept, I vow to taste the truth of the Tathagata's words.

[06:42]

They seem to be spotlighted. I'm wondering if I can, can I view a gallery? Yes. Okay. I'd rather not look at myself when I'm giving a talk. It's so wonderful to be here in this Zoom space with all of you. I see many familiar faces and many more unfamiliar faces. It's just a sign that has been far too long. since I've been in the halls of San Francisco Zen Center. I'm very happy to say that I will be coming in next week to Sitsashin at Tassahara with my teacher, Ryushin Paul Haller, and with my Dharma friends there in the valley. And hopefully maybe I'll run into some of you when I'm in the city before and after. Today I want to talk about the ceremony that I believe that you all just performed maybe last night?

[07:59]

Maybe, yes, last night? The Sejiki ceremony. And I wanted to talk about this ceremony. It's one of my favorite ceremonies that we perform. We perform it here in the West, in Zen centers in the West. Oftentimes it's performed around the time of Halloween. But traditionally, the ghost festival ceremony is performed on the 15th day of the seventh lunar month of the year. So I wanted to say a little bit about the history of the ceremony and what it means to perform it, what it means to take up the practice of setting up an altar preparing offerings, making offerings, invitations, chanting dharanis, embodying mudras, and maybe most of all, embodying an open-hearted wish to welcome all beings in all states.

[09:13]

One of my favorite things about the ceremony is this welcoming without any discrimination. It feels very much in alignment with my own vow and all of our vows as bodhisattvas. A very powerful ceremony, the roots of which I think there are several mentions of the Buddha speaking of how to perform this ceremony. And maybe the first that I've known sutra that describes this ceremony is the Ulumbana Sutra. in which the story goes that the Buddha's disciple, Madh Galyayana, was sitting with the Buddha and the assembly and had attained, just gotten to a point of attainment of the higher knowledges. And he wished to repay the kindness of his family, of his parents in particular.

[10:19]

And so using his powers, he... visited his family, his mother and father, he went to visit them, and much to his dismay, he discovered that his mother had been reborn in the hungry ghost realm. And some of the stories I've read about this suggest that she had, in her lifetime, as the mother of Moggalyayana, had been kind of skimming off of offerings that he had sent to her so that she could make offerings to the Sangha and to the monks and nuns of the Sangha, that she had been kind of pocketing the change instead of passing those offerings on to the assembly as they were intended, which was seen as maybe the root cause of her being reborn in such an unfortunate realm as the Hungry Ghost Realm. I'll speak a little bit more about the realms in a moment. But he was very distressed and he tried to feed his mother who was in a terrible emaciated state, being reborn as a gaki or a preta, a hungry ghost.

[11:32]

When he tried feeding her, the food that he gave her while she was able to accept it in her hands as she brought the food up to her lips that turned into hot burning coals and burned her mouth. and the water that he gave her to drink turned to pus and blood. So in no form that it could be in any way nourishing to her. So he went to the Buddha and asked for his help. How do I help my mother? How can I repay her kindness in raising me and help to alleviate her suffering? The Buddha told Madhagalyayana that even the deva kings, the wheel turning kings, no one by their own power had enough spiritual power to actually save her. That actually what was needed was the sangha, and it's referred to as the awesome power of the sangha in the ten directions.

[12:48]

was needed to be brought in for this effort. The Buddha also told Madhgalyayana that the best time for this ceremony was immediately after the rains retreat. So after the three-month retreat during pravarana, the monks all participated in a confession and repentance. ceremony where they ask for forgiveness to their Sangha members and to maybe all beings for any unskillful actions they may have committed during the retreats. So tying this Pravarana day, this day of asking for forgiveness with the ceremony that later was developed into a Seijiki ceremony. There's something really beautiful about that.

[13:50]

The time of confession and repentance is an inward-looking time, and it's a time of really being open to the causes and conditions that lead to our both skillful and unskillful actions and behaviors. So a turning inward time is the time of giving nourishment to these hungry ghosts and to all suffering beings. So the Se in Seijiki means nourishment. And the term Seijiki, I think, started being used pretty recently. It used to be called Seigaki, but the term Seigaki of a hungry ghost is... The gaki is considered a slur, so we now use the term Seijiki instead of Seigaki. So the Sangha was implored to make offerings, and the offerings that are given to these hungry ghosts and all suffering beings are ones of light, incense, food, food of many different kinds, food from

[15:12]

the rivers and mountains from the plains from the oceans so when we select the foods for the offerings it's it's always in a warm-hearted way I would say we gather these these foods that may provide succor and nourishment to these suffering beings So that's the Ulaambana Sutra, where the Buddha gives Madhgalyayana some instruction on how to go forward to save, to help save his mother. There is another story in the early canon found in the Buddha's discourse on the scripture of the spell for saving the burning mouth hungry ghost, where Ananda, the Buddha's disciple Ananda, Has these terrible visions and it's while they're While they're practicing in Kapila Vastu and he has these terrible visions where a hungry ghost that by the name of young coo or burning mouth comes to visit him and Tells Ananda that he has three days that his life force only has three days remaining and at the end of those three days that he

[16:38]

his life force will become exhausted and he will fall into the realm of the hungry ghost. Ananda, hearing these words from this burning mouth hungry ghost, Yang Ku, trembles in fear and goes to the Buddha and implores him, how can I avoid this awful fate of being reborn as a hungry ghost? And the Buddha in this discourse as well also gives him instruction in dharanis or incantations, various magical incantations that are designed to do a number of different things. I'll go over that a little bit when we talk more about the actual ceremony. But not only these dharanis or these incantations and mantrams, but also what offerings to make on the altar, how many... clean vessels of food and drink of 100 different flavors are to be provided.

[17:42]

So it is a time for really finding one's own generosity and bringing it forth to provide nourishment. In terms of these offerings, I wanted to say a little bit about offerings. The offerings that are given are sometimes not the traditional offerings. There's a story of Milarepa as well, who when he, Milarepa, being a saint in the Tibetan tradition, was by himself in a cave meditating. And it was getting cold and he decided he needed to go collect some firewood. So he left his cave in search of firewood. And when he returned to his cave, he found that five demons had taken up shelter in his space and were kind of reading through his books and making themselves food and tea and kind of lounging on his bed.

[18:47]

And he got there and he tried to kind of, how do I get these demons out of here? So he went through a number of different things that he thought might help. He tried flattering them. He tried praising them. He tried... preaching the Dharma. He tried feeding them. And he ran through all these different ways. He's trying to get rid of them, make them go away. And they were becoming more and more menacing towards him. So they gnashed their teeth and advanced upon him and salivated and, you know, showed him their claws. And one of them went up behind him. And he realized, As he was trying to dispel them through these various means, none of them working. None of them worked at all. They just seemed to bring these demons closer to him. He had a realization that these demons were none other than his own mind.

[19:53]

And that what is there to do with these demons? They're not separate from... from my own mind is the realization that Milarepa had. And in that moment, in his realization at how foolish it was to try to dispel them, he sang a song of realization. And the end of the song of realization, it ends with the words, I now welcome you and receive you wholeheartedly. Please stay the night. You are welcome here. And as the story goes, they kind of got confused looks on their faces and all five kind of turned into one and disappeared. So out of Milarepa's own realization, he was able to turn towards these demons. Now, demons are not the same as hungry ghosts, but sometimes they're confused for one another. Sometimes the hungry ghosts in the realm of hungry ghosts, they're characterized by often by having

[21:00]

huge, huge bellies and tiny needle-thin necks and small mouths. So they can't, even if they have food that they can put in their mouths, they can't get it down. And this, of all the six realms, the three higher realms are the humans, devas, and human realms. And then the three lower realms are considered the hungry ghost realm, the animal realm, And the hell realm. And oftentimes, you know, we may think of ourselves as being reborn in some of these realms on a day-to-day basis. I'm sure many of you have had this experience of being in the hungry ghost realm, where it seems like nothing is satisfying. That realm is characterized by a feeling of not enough. of complete, utter lack.

[22:02]

And so in the ceremony, one of the first things that happens after the altar is set up... Oh, let me say something about the setup of the altar while we're here. The altar is set up traditionally as a reverse position of the main altar, which has both Buddhas and Bodhisattvas on it. The altar with Buddhas and Bodhisattvas is covered for the Sejiki ceremony. And a reverse altar is set up across, if it's in the Zendo, across the Zendo, or maybe across the Buddha Hall. I realize I've never been to a Sejiki ceremony at City Center. But the altar is set up as a reverse altar. And it's curious, like, why is that? And one of the reasons I've read about is that the Dharma, that the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas on the main altar, that hungry ghosts and unsatisfied suffering beings may not be able to access.

[23:11]

They may actually be afraid of the Dharma, which is really interesting, right? And how many times have we felt that in our own lives? Well, we know the Dharma. We know what... the path is, and yet we find we can't step forward into it for whatever reason. So in this sense, having this altar set up as a reverse altar and covering the main altar, a lot of the preparations of tzajiki are about making these wandering, confused, dissatisfied, angry, forlorn, abandoned orphaned beings, like giving them what they need in whatever form they can accept it. And so sometimes you might even look at some of the offerings on these altars and say, why is this on the altar? Why would somebody put this on the altar?

[24:15]

This isn't necessarily satisfying. Well, maybe these are the things that are needed to satisfy these wandering spirits. Interestingly, when I first moved into San Francisco Zen Center years ago, there was a practitioner there who died in maybe the first few months that I was living there. And he was a wonderfully introverted fellow who spent much of the time on the roof of the Zen Center smoking cigarettes. back when I think that happened. And he apparently liked M&Ms as well and ate lots of M&Ms. So he was very known for his M&M eating and his chain smoking. And after he passed, a little altar appeared outside of his room and people would leave offerings there.

[25:16]

And I remember walking by the room and seeing packs of cigarettes and M&Ms and thinking, I really like this practice. The fact that this is being offered, even if it's like, of course you shouldn't be smoking and eating tons of M&Ms. And yet this is one way to give some feeling of what's asked for maybe, even if it's unhealthy. And so Sujiki has that sense for me as well. It's a time when normally we, you know, It's not about cultivating unwholesome states. It's about turning towards them in ourselves and in others and in all beings, the universal karma of suffering that all of us share, but to turn towards and offer whatever is nourishing in that moment. So in the setting up of that altar, not only is it, there are certain, as I mentioned, to try to select foods from different regions.

[26:29]

So to make it as inclusive as possible, we find, you know, sometimes you might find seaweeds from the ocean and tubers from the ground, from the plains. Maybe... vegetables, sea vegetables, or items that are only found in different regions that you would try to collect a whole assortment of these items as a way of making offerings. And in some ways, even honoring, honoring the existence and giving our presence. So the ceremony consists, as those of you who have participated, in the opening segment is one of inviting these spirits through the practice of instruments. So there's an instrumental section that both calls the spirits and then at the very end of the ceremony dispels them.

[27:34]

So it's welcoming them and then sending them on their way. As part of the ceremony, there's the Durrani's that are chanted for each of these steps along the way. So the first Durrani is the summoning Durrani to bring these deceased spirits to the great assembly. And there's a mantra that goes with it, which I'm not going to chant right now. And a mudra, so the officiant of the ceremony is offering the mudras while the whole assembly is chanting the Durrani together. And then also the officiant, the doshi of the ceremony, is also doing visualizations. There are visualizations that are happening as the mantras are being performed. So it's a whole embodied effort on the part of the doshi and the assembly.

[28:34]

And after the summoning happens, then the breaking down of the gates of hell happen. And then the opening of throats. So these Gakis with their long needle-like throats, the Jurani is to open the throats. Then there's the Jurani of blessing or increasing the amount of food offerings. So you might say, and this actually was part of what happened with Ananda when the Yangku, burning mouth hungry ghost, told him that he was going to become a hungry ghost in three days. he also told Ananda that the only way out of this was if he were to be able to somehow feed all the spirits, feed all of them, bushels and bushels of food for each of them. Each of them got something like five bushels of food. So Ananda, of course, how can I do this? How can I do this? And so there's a Durrani, it turns out.

[29:38]

A Durrani that is... where the doshi is visualizing the food expanding to fill the entire universe and being made available to feed every spirit who happens to come by. Then there's a jirani of visualizing water or chanting for the water to expand to fill the entire universe to satisfy the spirits with sweet dew. Amrita. Further on in the ceremony, there's a Durrani for encouraging the spirits to realize the emptiness of their suffering and the emptiness of the succor that they're receiving as well. And then the Durrani encouraging the spirits to take refuge in the five cosmic Tathagatas. And then visualization and chanting to arouse bodhicitta, followed by the receiving of the bodhisattva precepts, followed by bringing forth to reside in the pure land of the great jeweled pavilion.

[31:01]

And then finally, the Duranis to empower and initiate the spirits into Buddhahood. So we have this ceremony, as I mentioned, at this particular time of year. It's a time of year where in our hemisphere things are getting colder and darker, the days are longer or shorter, and the night comes sooner. The ceremony is performed in the evening. oftentimes around the turning of from day to night, so dusk time. And actually in Buddhist temples in Japan and elsewhere, I believe this ceremony, the ceremony of the Khan Ramon, maybe not the entire altar set up, but the chant is done every evening. Every single evening there's a ceremony to feed the hungry ghosts.

[32:04]

In our tradition, I believe at Tassajara, at least during practice periods, every four and nine day, the ceremony is done. The Khan Ramon ceremony is done. Again, for the purpose of inviting these hungry ghosts and feeding and nourishing them. So in terms of the... In terms of how we approach this ceremony, I think the Milarepa story of his Song of Enlightenment, which came only after his realization that these beings are none other than our own mind, that is the meditation. That is the practice of putting together... And it takes a lot of effort to put together a ceremony when we do all the...

[33:04]

you know, all the things. So the ceremony is not only for the suffering beings, the ceremony is also to honor all of our departed ancestors. So people are invited to give the names of those who have departed, at the very least in the past year, but even beyond the past year. So parents and grandparents and loved ones who have passed. And it's a little odd, right, to have this ceremony where we're inviting hungry ghosts and rough demonic spirits from the untamed wilderness. We're inviting all these kind of like karmic beings who are trapped in suffering realms and our own ancestors, right? They are invited too. Oftentimes, the way the ceremony is performed, at the end, all of the offerings are then fed to the sangha.

[34:11]

They aren't thrown away. They're fed to the sangha. Again, this is a nice way of representing that these beings, oftentimes we may think of these beings as, oh, those scary beings over there somewhere. But no, like how do we find those beings within our own bodies and minds and hearts? And what does it mean to turn towards them as opposed to turning away? Often with this ceremony, I think of, I recall the great teacher, Mjogan, Steve Stuckey, who studied the system of internal family, internal family system psychology. which I'm not sure how many people are familiar with, but I think it's a pretty radical approach to a psychotherapeutic method where rather than pathologizing what's happening in one's life, even if it feels like, oh, this must be a path, there's something wrong with me, this isn't okay, right?

[35:24]

We like to say, you know, just this is it. But then there's this, like, well, not that. We want to bifurcate. We want to compartmentalize. We want to even exile the things, the parts of ourselves, the parts that we see in our friends and sangha mates, right? We want to somehow turn away from those. This is an understandable impulse. But as Milarepa found, it doesn't work. So thinking about this internal family systems in which rather than pathologizing those parts of ourselves that we wish would go away, the practice is actually turning towards them and offering space for them to speak. We provide them a space at the table, these exiled parts of ourselves that we'd rather not have. This is a courageous practice. It requires.

[36:25]

deep compassion. It requires some courage, confidence even. It requires a calm mind to be able to turn towards those parts that we'd rather not see. Other forms of practice around this include maybe the practice of Cho, which is the practice of feeding one's demons, the visualization of feeding one's own flesh, of giving over to. The ceremony brings up this opportunity to really deeply connect, to deeply connect to things and states, mental states, that mostly we may be terrified by. So the other practice that I think comes out of this, because Sejiki, it is a time of, you know, coming along with the confession and repentance ceremonies.

[37:35]

It is a great time to reflect on karma. And the way that we reflect on karma, how? How can we reflect on our own karma, especially, I'd say, especially the unwholesome karma? How do we have the strength to turn towards our own unwholesome karma with a curiosity, with a welcoming attitude? It's not something that we can fabricate, maybe. Or maybe we can try it, we can fake it till we make it. But really, like... spending some time to, you know, look deeply inside at our own, you know, the feeling tone of, you know, aversion or grasping or neutrality. How do we feel towards our own suffering? I have a personal story that I would maybe would like to end with that –

[38:39]

Here in Austin Zen Center, we had our Sajiki ceremony this past Wednesday, and we did it outside so that we could invite people to come in person. And during the day, I had gone shopping for some items. I had picked some eggplants that were growing in my own garden and brought them to the altar and setting up the banners and... the bringing out the bells and, you know, basically re-erecting a Zendo outdoors from the inside, bringing everything out. And as I'm preparing for the ceremony, it was a very windy day. And so like the flowers kept falling off the altar and the banners, it wasn't, you know, time yet to string the banners up because they were, you know, they would just get tangled up in the trees. So I'm spending the day with my, I have an assistant who was working with me. She had a few hours to spare, so she was helping me. And then she had to go, and someone else who could come in for Doka-san ended up helping me for a little bit.

[39:42]

But for the most part, it was just me doing the preparations and the setup. And at one point, I realized that I was feeling kind of grumbly, maybe even a little resentful. I have to confess, there was a little feeling of like... why aren't more people coming and helping and i realized in this that this feeling of distress in myself As I was doing this great work of setting up the ceremony, I was at the point at which I was making the rice offering and chopping the vegetables, and I was kind of selecting different vegetables, and I was like, oh, I'm going to put a little wakame in there and maybe a little bit of this root vegetable. And so I'm chopping, and I'm feeling a little grumbly. And sometime through the act of chopping the vegetables, something in me was like, Oh, I see. I see what the ceremony is about.

[40:45]

I need to welcome this uncomfortable feeling, and rather than externalizing it, how do I take care of it with the big Buddha heart that I know I have? How do I make that space? And something with the, you know, just the tactility of... you know how it is when you're working in the kitchen, the tactility of the vegetables and the smells of the seaweed. And this brought me back. Just this act of making this offering brought me back to, oh, the problem, the problem is not out there. It's right here. And I have the means to transform it through this presence. So a small, a small, event to occur, but for me, it really embodied the spirit of Sujiki, that these hungry ghosts and demonic spirits are not out there roaming around, maybe they are, but the interconnection of all beings and how much of this, how I can see in myself these unsatisfied places, these places of fear,

[42:07]

and distress and how I can turn towards them. So I think I'm almost out of time. I wondered if there were any maybe questions or comments. I'd love to hear from people about your own feeling of the ceremony and maybe share that And each year that this happens, the ceremony happens, I think people go away from it feeling a little bit more connected, not just to their departed ancestors. Maybe they feel like they have the weight of letting go, letting go of their own attachments to those loved ones who have passed. maybe they feel a little bit closer to their own, their own heart of compassion.

[43:08]

So I wonder how it is for all of you. Thank you very much. May our intention equally extend to every being and place with the true merit of Buddha's way. Beings are numberless, I vow to save them. Delusions are inexhaustible, I vow to end them. Dharma gates are boundless, I vow to enter them. Buddha's way is unsurpassable, I vow to become. Thank you so much. Mako, nice to see you. Thank you to the assembly. And now, as Mako mentioned, it's time for a conversation. Questions, comments, and responses to the prompt, if you like.

[44:12]

Feel free to raise your Zoom hand and I can help join you. Mako, thank you so much for your talk. It's great to see you and your space in Austin. So we had a sujiki ceremony last night. And for me, there was something special about it because last year we didn't do it due to the pandemic. And this year we were able to gather in the Buddha Hall. Some people wore costumes, which is a city center way of doing sujiki. And I just wondered for you and your sangha, how was it? Was there something, I mean, for me, it had much more meaning because we were, you know, we were so close to death. this past year and a half in some ways. And so it seemed particularly poignant to me to be able to do this ceremony together this year. And I wondered if you could speak to that.

[45:14]

Absolutely, Tova. Yes, I completely agree. At the Austin Zen Center, we did do Seijiki last year. We had it as an outdoor ceremony with just a few people, but then we streamed it online as well. So we had a number of people who came online. But absolutely, you know, I think it's during the reading of the names, you know, just the act of, like, we ask people to write the names of those who've departed on these strips of paper, and we hang them around the space to kind of, so that basically the doshi, and this year I invited Kokyo Henkel, who's here visiting this fall, I invited him to be doshi, so he was sitting in the chair and all these names were kind of around him and leading up to the altar. And so afterwards, you know, just the chanting, the reciting of the names of those who have passed. And, you know, Austin Zencener has had a number of people who have passed in this last year.

[46:16]

And for people to hear the name and then to go and, you know, to see the name hanging there, string strung up on the, you know, to create this space, Afterwards, we took the names down, and as is customary, we had a little bonfire, not really a bonfire per se, but a fire, and we put the names into the fire. And so that alone is just the act of writing down the name, invoking this person's presence, honoring them in the ceremony, and then taking the names down and putting them into the fire. You know, that's why one of the reasons I tell people, like, yes, you can think of the names just in the last year, but don't let that limit you. Anybody, actually, that is departed, that you have some, you know, connection to, maybe some unresolved karma with, like, to go ahead and add their name to the ceremony as well.

[47:21]

And then this year we had... know it was as i mentioned it was also outdoors it actually makes it quite nice to do it outdoors i kind of wonder whether we'll continue to have it outdoors it's at that time of year where we could have it and it's you know it's getting darker and darker we we purchased some like string lights and and then we had two fire pits going and then candles on the altar um but the acknowledgement of so many who have um so much suffering this past few years and and so even the ones who have not passed on the people who remember them and who have taken care of them and all the the grief associated with loss and death and illness and not being able to go in to be with your loved ones i think that's the ceremony embodies or it it invites all of that feeling of despair and provides a space for it.

[48:27]

Thank you. Thank you. Matt? Thank you for your talk. When I was at the Sijiki ceremony here yesterday, when we were offering incense, I offered some tobacco. I had an old friend of mine in mind. He kind of lived a hungry ghost existence. What I'm wondering is, when I think about hungry ghosts, they seem like the epitome of craving. They're not the most extreme end of the spectrum of existences like demons. But they do seem to characterize the problem that we face more than any other sort of entity in the Buddhist cosmology.

[49:29]

All they want is satisfaction. That's really all they crave. And that's really what all of the realms crave. So I find what you said about covering up the Buddha statue because it's. scary it's almost like too bright to even look at i wonder do you think that there is something in hungry ghosts that can teach us about our practice or there is a way in which they embody what our practice is in a certain sense yeah you know the there's this Story, I think it might be hungry ghosts. It might be hell beings. But you've probably heard this or seen this image of these beings around a table. And there's food, plenty of food on the table.

[50:34]

But they've got these chopsticks that are too long, right? These chopsticks where they can pick up the food with the chopsticks, but they're too long. They can't feed themselves with the chopsticks. And so they're unsatisfied because here all these riches are there for them, but they can't access them. But the practice here, I think maybe this is an answer to your question, having these long chopsticks, they can't feed themselves, but they can feed the one across from them. And in that way, this is a path to everyone becoming nourished that can't happen if everyone's in it for themselves. It can only happen with all of us together. And if I feed you and you feed me, then both of us are nourished. So in that sense, I think the hungry ghosts or the... It's just like there's this... Oftentimes there might be even this small shift that needs to happen.

[51:46]

that it's not that far away. So when you're in the hungry ghost realm, it seems impossible to find nourishment. You know that feeling when, and maybe your friend had this, you know, when you said he had a hungry ghost existence, right? This feeling of even if help is right around the corner to somehow just not be able to see it, right? There could be something that is just a minor a minor movement that opens so that just the small turning towards may be just enough to open the door to what seems inaccessible. So that's what comes to mind with your question. Thank you. I guess one thing that I have in mind as well is just do you think that their desires are different from, like, do you think that they, that there's sort of like, that there are disconnected desires or do you think that at the root this basically is all the same thing?

[53:11]

That's a great question. You know, I think that the desires are pretty much the same. The desire for belonging, the desire to be seen, to be loved, the desire to be free from suffering. I think the desires are all very much the same. What we turn to to satisfy those desires, that's where the differences come, right? Until we turn to, again, until this turning happens where we let go of seeking outside of ourselves, that's one starting point. When we stop seeking outside of ourselves for that nourishment and learn to be with the suffering and find a way to allow it, it dissipates.

[54:13]

It has the ability to dissipate. Whereas if it's always something that's actually external to us, we're seeking for somebody else to be a certain way for, you know, the right conditions to appear. That's inherently disempowering. Right. So the desires may be the same, but the way we go about satisfying those desires. There are such a spectrum, some of those being highly unskillful and only through our continuously banging our head against the wall, trying to satisfy these deep desires in these unskillful ways. Only when we keep doing it at some point, maybe we can take a seat and say, okay, that's not working. How do I be open to what might be of benefit? Thank you very much. Thank you for your talk.

[55:21]

I was struck by your use of the term harm reduction. And I really love this as a framework for helping people who are new to working with for example, people on the street who are in great distress. And there can be a real resistance to using harm reduction methods, as you know. It can seem like giving up on people. And I really love using this framework, you know, which is a very long ceremony and a beautiful sutra, the gate of sweet dew, as a... as a teaching tool and a tool for compassion for myself and others who are working with harm reduction, not only as a sutra for when someone has passed. So I just want to thank you for that. I've always loved the Gate of Sweet Dew.

[56:23]

And this is another way for me to use it with myself and with others. I don't know if you want to expand on your use of the term harm reduction. I was struck by that. Thank you. I'm not sure what I was specifically meaning when I said harm reduction. However, in terms of the, I think to find this question of like, well, what's the skillful action here? There needs to be a wide open space to ask that question in, right? If you go towards asking that question, what would reduce harm with a fixed view, you're going to come up with, you know, a couple things maybe, but you're not going to see a lot of things that might be there. So, again, this feeling of how do we rest in our own not knowing and thus and then curiosity.

[57:26]

what would actually bring uh nourishment here and to not go in with that with well i know what will bring nourishment and what should bring nourishment right but actually what will help here in this particular case in this with this particular person with these particular karmic causes and conditions and of course we can never know at least not until you know supreme awakening But we can do our best from a settled space to bring up that question with an open heart. Thank you. Zach? Sister.

[58:33]

I'm a brother. I think it's fascinating that all the questions seem to be circling around this crucial point. It's quite wonderful, actually. And what stirred it up for me to start with was the Milarepa story. That's a great story. And it... The problem is that it kind of glosses over or skips lightly, let's put it that way, over the moment of realization, right? So, I mean, I know, I'm certain you've had this experience and, you know, people, I think a lot of people have this experience of being in a connection with someone who, has hungry ghosts or demonic attributes and seeing the way in which the setup that's traumatic or difficult or debilitating environmental or life factors have put them in this state and just

[59:59]

puzzling endlessly over what it would take to make that tiny shift. When you look at it from the point of view of Milarepa, it's like, oh yeah, I got it. This is my mind, right? Woo! Okay, everyone, you're cool now, right? Good, right? But because the... Because, you know, the metaphor that you've got to cover up the Buddha statue because it's just too shiny, right, is really accurate. It's like a lot of people come to practice because of the shininess of the Buddha. And it turns out, actually, that that shininess is both maybe it's scary, but also it has a kind of attraction that continues to obscure the nature of the shift that you need to make. So how do you manage that? That's a... it's a puzzle for me. And, and I've, you know, and sometimes it seems like when working with somebody like that, I've, I sometimes feel good about it.

[61:06]

And sometimes I feel like I haven't been able to help at all. So anyway, what do you think? Absolutely. No. And, and, and sometimes you may not be, it may seem like you're not able to help at all. Right. And. it may very well be that that's a seeming and you don't know what your efforts bring to this being later, right? But I completely hear what you're saying with the, you know, how did you get from point A to point B? Remember, he tries a bunch of different things that all fail. Right, right, right. That's right. He goes to these things. He's like, these are his tools and his toolkit. He's like, okay, we're going to try this. Ah, I didn't worry. This one, no, but this. You know, these demons are getting more and more ferocious, right? And rather than getting, you know, again, it's like this is ultimately the question is one of how do we be with fear?

[62:11]

Right. So something about in the ceremony with the five demons, you know, cosmic Buddhas that are invoked in this ceremony or they're called upon these wisdom Tathagatas, right? The last one is a Moghasiddhi, freedom from fear Tathagata, right? And how do you become free from fear, right? Really, it's, you know, especially living together in Sangha, like, we get to be with not just our own fear, but the fear of others, which can be very triggering for people. Even if I feel like I'm good, I'm contained and I'm doing all right, and then I run into somebody who's having a really hard time and their suffering itself can scare me. The vastness of another being suffering can scare me, right? Much less my own suffering, right? When my own suffering, if I'm completely hijacked by my own state of fear, then maybe the, you know, the solve there is to just, you know, find stillness, to stop trying to do anything, to just rest in my own awareness without trying, so-called trying to practice with it.

[63:38]

just allowing it to be there and just giving it presence right and that's you know that sometimes can even be a tall order just to do that but this freedom from fear to target i i i swear during the ceremony i think every time the hairs on the back of my neck stick up when i i'm like yes freedom from fear to target to come come down and be here with all of us, like for all of us to have just even, you know, a little bit of an opening to being able to, Oh, look, here's fear. How do I, how do I be with it? Maybe not. How do I serve it? Tea and cookies and welcome it. You, maybe that's going a little too far at the beginning. Maybe it's just, how can I let the free, the fear and all of its associated mental and physical, you know, uh characteristics how do i allow it to be there without thinking that i need to do something i need to fix this i need to i need to move out i need to stop being a resident i need to stop practicing you know all kinds of ideas can show up at that moment when we're gripped and here how do we say oh oh wow look at that there's that impulse there's another impulse and um oftentimes when when this comes up in

[64:58]

when I speak with people who are working with some kind of an afflictive emotion that they feel overwhelmed by, you know, I'll ask them, you know, maybe take that feeling of fear and bring it down into your cosmic mudra, just to give it a little bit of space between it and your sitting body, right? So that you can rest, it can rest in your hands really close, you can stay close to it, but it's not kind of, you know, completely infusing the cells of your body. And also pulling in your whole attention, right? When it pulls in your whole attention, then there's not much you can do, right? Yeah, breathe. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you so much. It's great to see you. From the siblings, Shannon. Good morning, Marco.

[66:00]

Good morning. First, I actually really wanted to thank you because I've always had an uncomfortable relationship with Sijiki because I didn't want to accept the loss of my parents. I wanted her to be alive. So I never really wanted to participate. And so your talk, I was like, oh, okay. So thank you because you've actually welcomed me into a ceremony that I really probably need to go to. But I also was really struck and I... After hearing Zach talk, I'm like, maybe I don't understand. But if I understand the talk, it sounds to me like Sajiki is a time where we're turning everything on its head, like our traditions, because there's an awareness that our traditions aren't accessible. And if we throw them on their head, the ghosts actually are able to access practice. which I also had, like, I was like, it's not a Buddhist temple, it's a Zen center, right? And that allowed me to access practice. And I've also understood a very strong tradition and like, we need to stay true to the tradition.

[67:08]

And yeah, I'm hearing that like part of our, we have an entire ceremony where we throw out the tradition because we recognize that the tradition can be a barrier. And I'm just wondering, like, that's so encouraging But I also wonder, like, is it only at Sajiki that we look at ourselves and ask, are we keeping out? Oh, I hope not. Yeah, so I'm curious, because like Sajiki seems to be saying, let's turn it around, because in its tradition, it's not meeting the needs of the hungry ghosts. Yeah. The turning around is. So I'm just, yeah, I don't know. Interesting. Yes. Thank you. Thank you for sharing about your own hesitation with the ceremony and the roots of that. That makes complete sense to me. So traditionally speaking, morning services are dedicated to Buddhas and Bodhisattvas.

[68:09]

We do that in the morning and we bow, we do full prostrations for Buddhas and Bodhisattvas. Now, evening services are traditionally done to uh those who have departed those who need help right and and uh and in you know in zen temples that are uh that have more ceremonies than maybe we do they do they do a sujiki ceremony every evening at dusk again at the time that is most conducive for these these uh wandering lost souls to come out right Apparently, you know, in the Madgal Yoyana story in the Ulaanbana Sutra, it's the seventh day, sorry, the 15th day of the seventh month. Apparently, in the story, he goes down and through his powers, he breaks into hell. He breaks the locks on the gates of hell. And all these beings come out of the hell realm and start wandering around.

[69:14]

So it's like the whole month is seen as this month that you kind of have to be a little careful. Right. And then on this, you know, the ceremony takes place, again, acknowledging them that these, you know, whether they're part of our, you know, our familial karma, right, part of our cultural karma, that all of these are maybe you know, having a certain time of year, like, you know, this weekend also is the, maybe not this weekend, but right after the weekend is the Day of the Dead ceremonies. And, of course, Halloween and All Hallows' Eve, these are all times when there are many different, you know, many different cultures are using this time to kind of turn towards the underworld, so to speak, right? So this is one way to participate in it, but I would not say that it is only like, only do this once a year.

[70:21]

Actually, I think our practice of Zazen is really to sit down and see what shows up. And if it's hungry ghosts that show up in our Zazen, that's who we turn to. So it's whenever that happens, not just on this specific night. Just that's when we take out our costumes and our fancy instruments. Thank you. Thank you. Any lingering questions or comments or is it time for our closing word? Mako, would you like to offer something to close? Well, sure. Maybe I will close by saying that I hope that our conversation here in some way lightened your day and made you feel more curious to those parts that normally get shoved into the closets or into the basements of our minds.

[71:43]

There's a little bit of spaciousness that we can offer to welcome, especially those parts that we don't like to post posts about on Facebook. Yeah. And I just want to thank you all very much for your attention and presence. It's really lovely to join you. Thank you, Kodo. Thank you so much. Tosha and Marco Vocal, thank you to the assembly. You should be able to unmute now if you like. Please take care. Thank you. Thank you very much, Marco. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you, Marco. Thanks, Marco. Thank you. Thank you, Marco. See you soon. I hope to. Thank you, Marco. Take care, everyone.

[72:46]

Thank you. Thank you, Marco. See you later. Thank you.

[73:05]

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