Well, good morning, everybody. Good morning. How nice to see so many of you here this morning. Lots of friendly faces, familiar faces. Thanks for coming. So we have the children this morning. That's great. So let's start out with some meditation practice. Are you ready? Okay. So the first thing we have to do is bring our attention to our body. So feel your feet. Feel your legs. Feel your back. Feel your arms. Feel your head. Feel your breathing. Maybe you want to close your eyes so you can feel your breathing. And be as quiet as you can inside.

[01:13]

And see what's there inside of you. See what you're thinking. See what you're feeling. Maybe you see pictures or dancing circles or squares in front of your closed eyes. Be curious and see what's inside of you. And feel your breath. Feel your breathing. Oh, how nice to breathe in. Oh, how peaceful to breathe out. let's imagine something okay keep your eyes closed and let's imagine something together make pictures in your mind so we're going to get on a ship here in the San Francisco Bay a big sailing ship big crew of sailors to help us and here we go sailing out into the San Francisco Bay

[02:44]

past all the other ships far far out to sea now we can't see any other ships or the land at all we're far out to sea and all we can see is the ocean waves and the sky and once in a while a seagull flying by there we are out on the sea in our ship. A long time goes by, oh, we see an island. We're gonna go land on that island. So we land on the island and we get off the ship and oh, we have adventures. Maybe someone captures us.

[03:54]

But we escape and get back on the ship. Then we go to another island. Oh, there's monsters. We have to fight with them. And we win. Back on the ship. And out we go again. We've been on this ship a really long time. Oh, we're tired out. So we try to sail home to San Francisco. And here we come. We can see the buildings. And we come close to shore. And there's our mom and dad waiting for us and our friends from school.

[05:07]

And they're so excited to see us. Wow, there you are. We've been waiting for you. You've been gone so long. Did you have any adventures? Oh, boy, did we ever. We had a lot of adventures. And we're so happy to be home to see you. We missed you so much. Isn't it funny that every day we see our mom and dad and our friends and we don't think anything of it? But today, when we sail home after all of those adventures, we are really happy to see our parents and our friends. Because we were gone so long and we miss them so much. now we're home and they give us hugs and kisses and then we think to ourselves well it wasn't so special before to be home but now we know how special it really is

[06:38]

just to be home. Can you feel that, how special that is? Just to be home. OK, that's all. So how many actually went on that ship? Raise your hand if you actually went on that ship. Oh, more people over there than from here. Did you go on the ship? And did you feel all those adventures? Did you see the ocean? Yeah, you could actually see the ocean in your imagination. Yeah, I know it. I know just what you mean. Any other comments? Eva, what did you think?

[07:44]

Did you go on that journey? No. You just stayed here. Who else went? Anybody else go? Who felt their breath? Did anybody sit there quietly and feel their breath? Oh, you did. Yeah. Was it nice to feel your breath? Did you think? No, no, your son there. Yeah, he raised his hand. Was it nice to feel your breath? It's peaceful, isn't it? Did you feel your breath too? Yeah. And did you like it? Did you find it peaceful? No? Yes? Yeah. You know, when you, I don't know, I think it's not that easy to be a kid. Do you agree? You think it's easy? It is easy, you think? Yeah. But I know when I was a kid, sometimes I would cry and I would be frustrated.

[08:50]

Did you ever experience that? Yeah. It happens. And I would have appreciated knowing when I was a kid. I didn't know it then. I know it now. I would have appreciated knowing that when I was frustrated, when I was angry, when I was upset, that all I had to do was be with my breath, and I could get a little peace. So that's a good thing to know if you're a kid, that just if you're quiet for a minute, you get some peace. So maybe you felt that this morning. I hope so. That's her brother, no? Yes? Yeah.

[09:59]

So, yeah. Anyway, that's all. Why don't you guys go play now? Thank you for coming, yeah. Some people with bad seats. There's a clear up here. So this morning I'm going to give a book talk.

[11:30]

Hi. I didn't notice you before. Thank you for coming. Hi, Jack. Yes, so some of you, I know that every Sunday morning there's a Dharma talk here, and some of you may not have realized that this morning was a book talk, that your typical author tour... more or less so I apologize to those of you who might have been here for the regular Dharma talk I hope that there's some Dharma value in in what I want to present this morning I started doing Zen practice a long time ago and at the time I thought Wow, this is really unusual. I'm doing something really unusual.

[12:32]

Not very many people would do this. Sit with their legs all twisted up like a pretzel for days on end. Going to monasteries. Living in monasteries for years and years. Nobody would do that. That's very unusual. Just me and my cohort. Us guys. We did this. You guys weren't doing this. So I thought that actually for a long time. But after about 30 years, the thought occurred to me, you know, maybe this is not so different after all from what other people are also doing. Maybe everybody else, just like me, is also trying to figure out, you know, who am I and what am I supposed to be doing in this life and how come? I was born, and how come I die, and how come time slips by every minute?

[13:38]

What is going on here?" Which I guess was why I went to the monastery in the beginning, to try to figure these things out, because if you stop to think about them for more than a moment, it's extremely troubling. It's very troubling. So now I realize that we're all doing this, that it's inescapable for all of us to do this. And actually, you know, I'm wearing maybe different clothes from the clothes that many of you are wearing, but how different am I really? And I lived a long time in monastic and semi-monastic communities, but how different is that really that we're all living in? monasteries under very restrictive conditions one way or the other so I realized you know if you're born if you die if you're trying to figure out how to love how to be loved if you want your everyday activity and your work to have meaning and purpose

[14:55]

then this means that you are inevitably on a spiritual journey. And that's your whole life, whether you think so or not. And we're all in that same boat, so to speak. It's pretty unavoidable. And the only question is, how much do we recognize it? What do we do about it? And in one way or the other, we're all doing something about it. We're all, this is our life. Whether we think so or not. So that's what I think now. It only took me 30 years or so to kind of come to that conclusion. Maybe you're smarter than me and you already know it. Some years ago... I was here at Green Gulch leading a seven-day retreat that we do every year around the time of Buddhist enlightenment.

[16:01]

And in the retreat, you know, it's silent all day long, but once a day there's a talk, an encouragement talk. So I was leading the retreat and giving the talk every day, and I would have a certain amount of time before the talk to think of something to say. And I had been at the time reading the Odyssey, just for fun. And so in my talks, during that week's retreat, I would bring in some stories from the Odyssey to sort of illustrate the things I was saying. And people really enjoyed it. They said, wow, that was so interesting to hear about Dharma from the point of view of the Odyssey. They said, because, you know, we really like the Buddha, the Buddha's admirable character. But when we hear about the Buddha, it makes us feel a little funny because the Buddha, you know, left home in a drastic way and, you know, meditated and went under austerities, was a monastic.

[17:20]

And we appreciate that, but we're not like that. We're not... We're staying home, and we're not monastics. We're living in the world, and our life has a lot to do with family and livelihood. But when you talked about Odysseus, who's, after all, just trying to get home to his family, who's concerned about his household and his provisions and his wealth and so on, we could relate to that. It sounded more like us. And also, the Buddha was pretty perfect. He didn't really... you know, get mad very much or stomp around or screw up. And we have to admit that we occasionally do get mad, stomp around and screw up and have many reversals and many, you know, just when things are getting good, they fall apart. And it sounds just like the Odyssey to us. Our lives. It's very similar. So we appreciated hearing about the spiritual path from the point of view of the Odyssey. And then I thought about this and I thought, wow, you know, why is it that all these many thousand years we keep reading the Odyssey over and over again and we can't get enough of it and so many books and stories and movies and everything reference the Odyssey.

[18:35]

We all know the stories of the Odyssey, even if we never read it. Most of us had to read it, you know, when we were in school. I don't know if they still read it in school, but it's certainly a foundational document of our culture. Why? Why is it? Maybe the Odyssey really is and has always been a story of the spiritual journey. Maybe that's why we keep reading it, whether we know that or not. So I kept, people liked this. I said, oh, well, I'll do it again. And I went to another retreat somewhere else. And I, again, talked about the Odyssey. And I became more and more interested in this. And I have a Dharma seminar that meets once a week, and we always study Buddhist texts. But for a couple of months, we studied the Odyssey. We actually read through the whole Odyssey, and I gave Dharma talks about the Odyssey, not only using the Odyssey for illustration, but talking about nothing but the Odyssey.

[19:36]

So then I thought, well, look at all this material. I should write a book. I see it will be easy now. Well, if such a thought ever occurs to you, dismiss it because it's never easy. It's seductive, but you think it's going to be easy, but it's never easy. Anyway, it was quite an odyssey to write this book. But I did do it, finally. And so that's what I want to present to you today. This new book of mine just came out last month, Sailing Home. using the wisdom of Homer's Odyssey to navigate life's perils and pitfalls. What a title! Don't you think? It wasn't my title. My title was Sailing Home Something Something, which I have now forgotten. But the publishers say that it had to have this title. And, you know, as the mere author, what could I do but acquiesce?

[20:42]

Anyway, it does have the virtue, which is why they chose this title. It does have the virtue of kind of giving you a clue as to what the book is about. It's a pretty big clue. Using the wisdom of Homer's Odyssey to navigate life's perils and pitfalls. And it has a wonderful cover, which I'm not going to hold up because it's too far away for you to see. But probably there's copies of the book here. You can look at it. It's a Japanese, probably Chinese or Japanese, brush drawing of a ship. far out to sea anyway so I'll read a little bit from the book and talk about it and the first thing I want to read is the epigraph for the book and it's the epigraph is from a book called metaphors we live by written by George Lakoff and Mark Johnson and I'm sure many of you know George and his work he's been very active lately He's a linguist, as you know, and he's been really active lately in sort of using his linguistic skills to analyze current political rhetoric on the right and left.

[21:54]

And he's started an institute and a think tank, and he's been rushing all over the place trying to make some sense out of current political rhetoric. And he's a wonderful man, a real Bay Area treasurer. He teaches at UC Berkeley. Anyway, this, I think, was his first... book, Metaphors We Live By, written in the 1980s. And it was an analysis of metaphor and how metaphor works in our language. And this is the quotation from the book. It is as though the ability to comprehend experience through metaphor were a sense, like seeing or touching or hearing, with metaphors providing the only ways to perceive and experience much of the world. Metaphor is as much a part of our functioning as our sense of touch and as precious. So this is kind of an astonishing thought, isn't it?

[22:59]

Because we think of metaphor as being an ornament of language. In other words, you could say it, but you put a metaphor on it to make it sound more poetic. But actually, you don't really need the metaphor. You could just say it and eliminate the metaphor. It's just decoration. That's how we think of metaphor. But he's saying, no, actually, metaphor is... And think of that. There are things about our lives, maybe, that we really need to know, but we don't have a sense organ to perceive them. So we need some way of being able to perceive these aspects of our lives that are so crucial to us, and yet we can't get at them. All of our explanations don't... work. Our sense organs don't work. We can't see or hear or taste or touch these parts of our lives. So we need metaphor to access them. And metaphor is like a sense that actually shows us this part of our life that's not reducible to any other sense or any other explanation other than the metaphor.

[24:05]

So that's kind of an astonishing thought. And it kind of explains why Literature is always so important in every culture, and it explains why there's religious literature, which provides strong metaphors for us to be able to feel our lives in ways that we ordinarily wouldn't feel them. So I think that's a very useful and important statement, and that explains why the Odyssey is so powerful in other such texts. So I'm going to start at the beginning with the introduction. Whenever I go to a Zen meditation retreat, sooner or later, by the third or fourth day, if not the first or second, I get the classic feeling of déjà vu. Haven't I lived this moment before? I'm sitting on my meditation cushion,

[25:07]

In my Buddhist robes, I'm delivering a formal Zen discourse. I'm looking out at my silent, dignified listeners, just like I am now. Haven't I given this talk before? And to you, exactly you, same people. Hasn't this happened before? Maybe over and over and over again? And what day is this anyway? What year? What place? Strangely timeless, the deja vu moment seems very real to me. Though it is utterly different from the normal pressured moments of busy clock time that mark the purposeful hours and days of my ordinary life. I have been a Zen Buddhist student priest or teacher for most of my life.

[26:11]

And I have done countless Zen meditation retreats. So it's no wonder I have the feeling that I've been here before. Getting older also might have something to do with it. I've been going around in this body for many decades through many subtle changes of aging, getting up, sitting down, eating meals. going to the toilet, walking, standing, laughing, crying, wondering about the nature of sensation, being in time, writing books and poems, spring, summer, fall, winter, year after year, people dying, new people being born, the daily news always different and the same. Maybe the déjà vu experience just becomes more normal the longer you live. And maybe déjà vu is actually just... The ordinary feeling of being in time. Which is really an astonishing experience.

[27:16]

Though we're so used to it, we take it for granted and we don't even notice. Another thing about this deja vu moment, it doesn't appear to come from somewhere else. It seems to have been there all along. lurking in the background of our living, but only rising into consciousness now and then. Most of the time, I'm too busy to see it. I'm so mesmerized and absorbed by the convincing details and dramas of life that there's no room for it. And it seems to take something radical, like a Zen meditation retreat, or a whack on the head of some sort, or maybe for a lot of us, some shocking revelation, a betrayal, a diagnosis, to wake us up to this moment and bring it forth into awareness. Maybe I became a Zen Buddhist priest in the first place so that I could have the job of frequently going to Zen meditation retreats where I would be bound to bump into this uncanny, wonderful, rare moment, which is oddly at the same time the most common and ordinary thing that there is.

[28:32]

which I would be experiencing all the time without any Zen meditation retreats if only I were paying attention to it, which I'm not. So what a ridiculous thing, actually. It is a ridiculous predicament. And at my talks during meditation retreat, I often share with people this ridiculous predicament. Because everybody in the retreat is just like me. luminously, gloriously, constantly stuck in the deja vu moment, but have forgotten to notice it, and are aware that they're missing something vital about their human life, which is why they're at the meditation retreat in the first place. Something fundamental and important and beautiful about human life.

[29:33]

So like me, and maybe like you too, we're all trying to return home to this uncanny moment, even though we actually never left it. So the mystery and the pain of our lives is that we are where we need to be. We just don't know it. And the spiritual odyssey, life's deepest and most significant undertaking, involves a lot of effort. It leads us on through many disasters and troubles in the inevitably checkered course of our living and growing. And in the end, brings us back where we started from. To ourselves. Only now with a more seasoned appreciation. There's an old Zen saying, Before I began Zen practice, mountains were mountains and rivers were rivers. Entering Zen practice, I found out that mountains are not mountains and rivers are not rivers.

[30:41]

And now, after a long effort, I see. Mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers. So the spiritual odyssey is full of deja vu experience. Full of irony. full of depth, full of strangeness and wonder, full of paradox. In it, everything changes, and also nothing changes. And we will also make this journey, all of us, each in our own way, no matter how much we insist on ignoring it, denying it, forgetting it, or working against it. So here's a story from the Jewish tradition but one time in reading along I found exactly the same story in a Muslim text and you can find it I'm sure in other traditions as well but here's the way it sounds with the Jewish details there's a tailor a simple tailor who lives in the shtetl in the village and he has a dream he dreams that there's a treasure buried underneath a bridge

[31:55]

leading to a castle. So he packs up his bags and he journeys to the capital city. There's the bridge that he saw in his dream. He approaches this bridge, but there's a soldier guarding the bridge. So he just stands there for hours, not knowing what to do. And finally the soldier asks him, you know, what are you doing standing there all this time? Why are you here? And the tailor, who's an innocent, honest person, can't but tell the whole story. And the soldier starts laughing and laughing. And he says to him, what a foolish person you are, believing in the fantasies of sleep. Let me tell you the difference between you and me. I, too, had a dream. I dreamt. that under the stove of a Jewish tailor in the shtetl was buried a treasure.

[33:04]

Now, the difference between you and me is that you're traveling all this way at such tremendous cost of time and such effort, chasing dreams for nothing. I, on the other hand, know a dream for a dream, and I don't waste my time like that. So, the tailor promptly went home. dug under his stove, found the treasure, and lived out the rest of his days a prosperous man. So we all begin with the dream. We all have dreams. And the dream wants to lead us on elsewhere in search of our heart's desire. So maybe we're practical down-to-earth people like this soldier, so naturally we ignore the dream, and we decide we're going to live a practical life, you know, right where we happen to be, in the real world, not realizing that it isn't exactly the real world, it's a world that we manufactured, but we don't know we've manufactured it.

[34:20]

We and all of our friends surrounding us have made this world up, and we all agree that it's real. And we ignore the uncanny vastness of our lives. The weird mysteries that crop up every day. We ignore them all. Because we're too busy. With our to-do lists to notice. Or possibly we're better dreamers than this. We do follow the dream. But we fail to understand the dream. So we're inevitably disappointed when it doesn't pan out in the way we expected it would. So we dust ourselves off and we follow the next dream. And the next one. And the next one. And the next one. Always dissatisfied.

[35:23]

Always seeking something that we never seem to find. Or maybe we're like the simple tailor in the story. We follow the dream, but we pay close enough attention in the process to recognize, with a little help from a soldier, that what we are seeking is right here, under our stoves, but we hadn't noticed before. So we go home and we dig a little. The story about the tailor turns on a traditional Jewish concept, which is in Hebrew called tshuva, return. And tshuva is the spiritual effort that we must constantly make to come back to the depth and truth of our living, from which we are constantly straying simply because we're normal human beings.

[36:31]

living in a normal, distracting human world, as it's always been. So we always have to make that effort to come home. That's spiritual practice. In other words, fall and redemption are not things that happened long ago to characters in the Bible. They're happening all the time, moment after moment, within us as well. And although the Jewish calendar has special sacred times of the year for the practice of tshuva, in fact, the sense is that it's happening all the time. This leaving and this returning is happening all the time, moment after moment. In fact, it's the deeply ingrained structure of human consciousness. And return is also a fact of nature. When you think about it, it's built into nature. The universe expands and contracts. The tides go out and come in. Celestial bodies go round and round.

[37:35]

The seasons begin, endure, draw to a close, and return. The spiritual journey, the human journey, is as natural as this. That's how it goes. We begin at home. We leave home. We return home. And even when it looks like we're going very, very far afield, we're always inevitably journeying on our way back. We have what we need. We are already where we are going. And the spiritual journey is a journey of return. And that's the odyssey. The odyssey is a long journey of just coming home. In the Iliad, Odysseus goes forth, along with the other Greeks, for conquest and honor, as we all must go forth, you know, for conquest and honor, that's part of life.

[38:43]

In the Odyssey, all that's finished, and all Odysseus is trying to do is go home. He's not seeking adventure. He has no quest to fulfill. He's finished with all that. He just wants to go home. And everything that happens is something that happens inevitably on the journey home. You can't avoid it. So I think we'll like this too. Well, I could stop there or I could go on for 10, 15 more minutes. What do you think? A little more? You came all this way, you might as well get a little more out of it. Part of the journey. Part of the journey, yeah.

[39:47]

Okay, I'll read a few more pages and then I'll stop. This is chapter one, The Sea of Stories. Our lives are full of stories, inundated by them. The day begins with the drama of the morning news and continues with stories we hear from friends, family members, coworkers, acquaintances. Popular songs regale us with stories, as do the movies, the internet, the newspaper. Almost all our institutions, from business to psychotherapy, from school to pulpit, organize their messages through story. And at night, we fall asleep to tales told in books, magazines, or television. And even our dreams weave our souls into the spell of story.

[40:49]

You'd think with all this we'd get tired of stories, that we would have heard it all by now. But our appetite for stories is unabated. Creating, processing, and interpreting stories is a major industry. And at any given moment on this planet, there are literally millions of people working on the creation of new stories that we will consume, discuss, fret about, don't over, forget, and remember. This human obsession with stories is as old as language, long before the printing press, or even the written word. People told stories in verse or in song. They were blurted out, blurted out loud during walking or working. They were whispered at night, declaimed from the holy places. People remembered and invented stories, sacred stories, profane stories, jokes, parables, fairy tales. From childhood on, we gravitate toward the good story and its endless fascination.

[41:58]

Tell it again, tell it again. Tell it again, children always say in every culture. And now more than ever, we have access to stories from all times and all places. More stories every day. Think about it. We hear more stories every day and different ones tomorrow. More than we could possibly absorb or pay attention to. So we love stories. But stories can be a big distraction. Immersed in the latest soap opera on television, or in the newspaper, or in the tabloids, or in the lives of our friends, and goodness knows, in our own lives, we can avoid tending to what is most real in our lives, to the real truths and real challenges of our living.

[43:00]

we can avoid the real joys and horrors of our world because we're so obsessed with our soap operas. Many centuries ago, the Buddha noticed with compelling acuity the way in which absorption in stories, even our own personal stories, could and often did function as a powerful avoidance mechanism and that this would have a disastrous effect on our lives. immersed in the passion of the tale, we forget who and what we really are. And heedless of our patterns of thought and behavior, we go on suffering, driven and unexamined lives, hurting ourselves and others in the process. And this is why, really, why the Buddha devised the famous doctrine of non-self or no-self, by which he meant not that the experience of self doesn't exist, But that the self depicted in our stories, in our gossip and in our myths, our personal myths, our own repeating emotional tape loops, that self is not a true self.

[44:16]

Every story, by hooking us into its plot line, shapes us through its narrative structure and says far too much about our lives that's not true. And far too little that is true. So as an antidote to this human obsession with stories, the Buddha taught moment by moment attention to the elements of perceptual, emotional and intellectual experience. He said once, in the scene let there be only the scene, and in the herd only the herd. No extra soap opera. Let go of the story and pay attention. to the actual facts of your life. And when you pay attention to these facts, the Buddha felt, without being swept away by the exciting plotline of your story, you will be able to see what kinds of thoughts and deeds make suffering and trouble. And being a reasonable person, you'll stop doing those things, stop following those things, and you'll be happy.

[45:27]

And then your friends will be happy because you're happy. So I've been practicing with these teachings of the Buddha for a long, long time, and I really appreciate them. And it's certainly helped me to have more happiness and less suffering. And yet, you can't deny stories. You just can never get around them, you know. To be human is to tell your story and to listen to someone else's story. But here's the thing. It would make a difference to know that a story is a story. Not to get mixed up and think, oh, this is me. It would make a difference to know that it's a story. Maybe an important story, but it's a story.

[46:27]

When we take our stories too earnestly, we let them hypnotize us and we get into trouble. So stories are true. as stories, not as life. They require understanding, interpretation. We can draw lessons from them. And stories can teach us through their shapes, their sounds, their structures, their suggestions, their in-between-the-lines content that will speak to us through our souls rather than through our minds or even our hearts. To know that my story is not exactly mine, but is like a wave rising up within the sea of stories is to appreciate my story and everyone else's story in a new way, in a wider and more significant way. And maybe when we look at our stories this way, we can see a whole new aspect in them. Then maybe we will need to cling to one particular aspect of our stories

[47:34]

as if it were the one true story that defines us, our story of victimization, our story of boredom, our trivialization, our story of despair. Maybe instead we might begin to see our many stories as stories of humanness, stories of being aliveness, not just our own small possession. And then maybe, Seeing our stories in this light, we can be inspired by them in a new way. And we can begin to make use of them for the journey. Okay, so let's try a little experiment. The editor of my book, I finished writing it, and she said, I think you should put little meditations in here. So that when people heard all these wonderful lessons, they could personalize them by doing a little meditation on the material.

[48:44]

Well, I didn't like that idea very much. But I thought I'd try it out. And it turned out pretty well. In fact, the book does have these little meditations in them. So I thought we could try one now, if you're willing. And we'll close with this little meditation. And it's on this question of what is our story? What's the story of our life? So if you would, as we were saying earlier, when the children were here, just return to your body, return to your breath. Isn't it interesting that in just one moment you can be in a very different position in relation to yourself if you return your awareness to the body and the breath? have an open feeling about what's inside letting it come and go and feeling the breath now I would like you to if you're willing to imagine something and I'll give some a bit of instructions here but

[50:17]

Don't feel constrained to follow every bit of it. Just whatever seems vivid. So begin by imagining, just letting it come to mind, whatever it is that comes to mind, a moment when you were a child. Maybe it's being in a certain place, hearing something, seeing something. having a certain feeling inside. See what pops into your mind and bring yourself to that place and feel that vivid memory. Okay, now you're a little older, 12 or 13 or 14.

[51:34]

What memory now comes from that period of your life? A feeling? A taste? Something you see? And be with that moment. No, try to tell yourself the story of your life, but don't tell it in the usual way. You know, I was born here, I lived there, went to school here, got married over there, divorced over here. But tell it as if it were a record of these moments. One connected to another.

[52:41]

these not usually noticed moments, and tell yourself a new story of your life. And notice that you could have started at a different place, and you could have told a very different story. So now maybe if someone says, tell me the story of your life, you might say, which one? What kind of story would you like to hear? Okay, one last thing.

[53:47]

Thanks very much for being willing to do that. One last thing. for the next two or three minutes, just very briefly, turn to the person next to you and talk to her or him about what was that like? What did you just find out? What did you just think about? Okay? So we'll all talk at the same time. Let's just talk and see. What was that like? Tell them. Tell them what that was like. I guess we'll need to ring the bell to stop them. I'll give you a signal. Okay. After the end, are you going to say anything? I'll just say goodbye.

[54:42]

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