Okay. Oh, there it is. Well, we had this teaching event at Greens with very senior people from City Center and from Spirit Rock. So it kind of gave me permission in a way to talk about an issue of diversity for me. So I've decided to not apologize or justify it and talk about religion. Now, I think some people think Buddhism is not a religion and maybe think of it as a philosophy or a practice or a way of life. And I actually think all those opinions about it are good. You know, they're necessary. But I think that often what determines whether or not we're talking about religion is

[01:17]

is whether or not we believe in God. And what's underneath that is actually what or who or what is our projection of God? Is it a being that gives us things or doesn't? How do we relate to that concept or that experience? So just when I came in, I offered some incense and there's a statue of Buddha. You know, we all sort of do that and maybe we think about it and maybe not, but that's an offering and bowing to something. Is it a mystery or an understanding or a hope for ourselves and for everyone else? I think that we don't often think of our chanting as praying to something, like a deity, but we think in terms of Buddha and Bodhisattvas and ask them for things, for comfort, understanding, witnessing.

[02:40]

And what is that about? What are we expecting? What are we giving? Are we making deals with the universe, bargaining for comfort or understanding or something we need or want or don't want? When I was working as a chaplain, I once went to visit this woman who had a real variety of things going on physically. And often when a chaplain goes to visit someone, They're going as the not medical person. So it's much more personal. And often someone would say to me, it described their circumstances, but in a very different way than they would to a doctor or a nurse. And I couldn't really do anything. So about that piece. But this woman was talking about her situation.

[03:42]

And it was very complex. And she had a couple of young children and wasn't really sure how she was going to do through this episode of her illness. So at some point, I said a prayer for her, and she immediately looked up and she said, oh, oh, and thank you, thank you. And I hadn't said that, you know. I had... sort of talked about her situation and her needs, but I hadn't said, thank you, thank you. And that really impressed me and has stayed with me. So how do we, you know, we often don't call on the deities or that mystery when everything's going well. When things, when we get scared or, you know, something bad happens, we pray or we need that witness to

[04:44]

to our experience. But when things are going well, do we remember? You know, thank you, thank you. And when things are not going well, thank you, thank you. So when we, I think that when our understanding of God or Buddha or the bodhisattvas and the deities is kind of based on this sense of magic dependency it's the relationship of a parent of a child to a parent and so we say well if God didn't give me that he's either mad at me punishing me or he's bad and I don't like him or something like that and so we get into that way of sort of projecting the parental idea of that mystery and I think there are many ways of relating to... I experience it myself as a kind of mystery, but I also use the word God.

[05:55]

And I think that when we don't have that relationship of dependency or... sense of punishment or need, then something wider opens up actually about our relationship, not just with that, but with everything and every person. Now, I think it's fairly accurate for me to say that most of the people in this room are from a Judeo-Christian cultural background. And if that's not true, I know it isn't for some people here, but I think for the majority that's true. And I am certainly not up here saying that we should be doing that or comparing it to Buddhism or thinking, contrasting it in any way.

[07:02]

But I think that it's very important for me, and I have been thinking about this for a long time, recognizing who I am, what I come from, and what I'm projecting from my own culture onto my understanding of Buddhism. And not as a negative thing, just a recognition. Who am I? What is this about? And through Dogen, and he's one of the founders of Soda Zen, in the Soda Zen lineage, he says... that we study the self to forget the self. So what that means is we look at everything about ourselves, our assumptions, what we bring to everything, and wonder, well, is this me or is it my safety? Is it my identity that I want to actually hold on to so that everything will keep making sense?

[08:10]

So we study that self to forget that self so that, well, what is new? How can I see this in a new way? I just last Saturday started this Masters of Theology program at the University of San Francisco. And it's been kind of funny looking at myself, why am I doing this? What is it that makes this so exciting and important to me? And one of the things, I had to write a statement of purpose for this program, and what I wrote was, although Buddhism in general and the Japanese Soto Zen school lineage of Zen Center offer profound teachings, I am aware of a cultural disjuncture for me as a Westerner in a Judeo-Christian milieu studying and practicing as a Buddhist.

[09:12]

Many Buddhist practitioners and teachers are quite comfortable adopting the entire terminology and lifestyle of Eastern religions. While I am deeply grateful and appreciative of Buddhist teaching and the Soto Zen lineage and uncertain of my place in that lineage, My instinct is to adapt those teachings to the moral and cultural reality out of which my own assumptions, aspirations, and dreams arise. So it's not like I don't like wearing my robes or I don't like my haircut. I'm very happy to do that and to learn from them, from how they feel and what they represent for me and for others. But it's more about... Kind of what I was saying earlier, who am I? And that was the first question that came up for me when I started to practice. Who am I? And then it became, who am I and what do I think I'm doing? Or what am I doing?

[10:14]

So, and as kind of an interjection and all this, part of my interest in studying theology, since I don't have a strong understanding theological background, is about our interfaith relationships with many different faiths. And I think that Buddhism is becoming more and more viable as a religion, certainly in the Bay Area and in the United States and probably in Europe, so that a lot of us who identify as Buddhists are doing Christian chaplaincy training programs, and now I'm going to go to this USF master's program in theology, and they're interested in Zen Center. The assistant to the department is our tech person's roommate, Sasha, and another person who works in the department is going to come here to do an internship.

[11:23]

And they have a Buddhist studies department as well. So this funny thing happened when I went there, these connections and familiarities. And they kind of got interested in me. You know, at first they were like, what are you doing there? I was talking to Steve Stuckey after our training. I met with him and someone else from a committee. over dinner to try to do more work, you know, to meet and talk about something. And he said he did this spiritual, what is it called, spiritual direction program. And they asked him, they were puzzled too, why do you want to do this? You know, you're a foolish. This is a Christian sort of based program. And they had that same puzzlement. And that was true to some extent when I went to UCSF to be a chaplain. Well, some of you may have read this article that was in The New Yorker.

[12:28]

It was about the religious right and their rising interest in global warming. And they're starting to insist on the politicians who they support to support doing something about it. And one of the pastors who was mentioned is Dr. Joel Hunter, and in their description of him and how he runs his pastorship, I'm not quite sure of the terminology, it said, beginning in 1991, he preached a 10-year series on achieving spiritual maturity, with each year devoted to a single topic. I was just like, wow, let's do that. I wanted to do that, you know. But to see your role as what we would call a teacher, and he's a pastor, as someone who is encouraging this spiritual maturity.

[13:35]

And in order for that to happen, I think, you have to have a certain experience that That was why I went to the chaplain training program. I would like to do some training in spiritual direction, why I want to go to school. I feel like there's something weighty I need to feel in myself for that to develop. There's a sutra called The True Lion's Roar of Queen Srimala. And in it, it's about And the phrase that's repeated in it is, bringing sentient beings to maturity. This was taught many, many years ago when I was at Tassajara by someone who was a teacher in the practice period. And that phrase, bringing beings to maturity, what does maturity mean?

[14:39]

Where are we going? What's the direction? What's the path? What's the meaning? And what Queen Srimala says in part of the sutra is, the embracing of the true dharma is no other than the paramitas, and the paramitas are no other than the embracing of the true dharmas. Why? For those sentient beings... who can best be matured through giving, the good men and women who embrace the true Dharma practice, charity, giving even their own lives and limbs. In this way, they bring those sentient beings to maturity in accordance with their inclinations to establish them firmly in the true Dharma. This is called the paramita of giving. And the other paramitas are discipline, patience, vigor, energy, meditation, and wisdom.

[15:42]

And so she repeats all those. And for those beings who can best be matured through this, the bodhisattvas practice those things to bring them to maturity. So spiritual maturity is a process, and... And it comes about or it's based in something called discipline, which is basically giving attention and consciousness to the teachings and the forms. So many years ago I read a book, I was actually typesetting it, called The Spirit of the Disciplines. And there were two categories of disciplines. So you can see that it's not that negative sense that we have of discipline.

[16:43]

Actually, discipline is disciple. I'm a disciple, therefore I practice discipline. There are disciplines of abstinence, not doing, solitude, silence, fasting, frugality, chastity, secrecy, and sacrifice. And then the disciplines of engagement. which are study, worship, celebration, service, prayer, fellowship, confession, and submission. So however we choose to understand or interpret those terms, I think we can all identify them in a certain way. At Zen Center, we get up in the morning in silence, And we basically practice a communal solitude in meditation. And some of us continue to fast from the night for a few more hours.

[17:46]

And then sometimes during meditation, we actually do contemplation, which is a kind of part of that can be a self-confession. Or we talk with someone like a practice leader and do a different kind of confession. And then in the meantime, somebody's making breakfast that has been planned and often prepared ahead of time by people in the kitchen, and that's a form of service. And so are all the people who are ringing the bells and hitting the ha, and so in a way we all end up in service to each other. And then we come to the Buddha Hall, and we worship and celebrate, make our offerings and prayer. And then, even though fellowship has been all the way through this, we then begin our day of engagement with each other in fellowship. So we are always combining the disciplines of abstinence and the disciplines of engagement.

[18:53]

And I think that we're both grateful for these disciplines and resistant. We have resistance to them. And both of those attitudes are opportunities for self-knowledge and for generosity towards others. So if you have or ever do study the Bible, you'll... notice that the stories often repeat, and they're completely different. They're sort of tone, the tone changes and the facts change. And there are two lines of traditions. One is called the Yahwist tradition, and that's from the southern area of Israel. And there's another tradition called the Elohist tradition,

[19:58]

which is from the northern area of Israel. And on Saturday, our teacher was describing the difference between them. And the Yahweh school, he says, the God of that school is large and he gives these big parties where the wine is flowing and the music is playing. And he said, and then the God of the Elohim school might give a party, but... Everyone would be very well-behaved. And, you know, we need both of those things in our practice and in ourselves and in how we relate to each other. And those traditions actually started to be written down about 3,000 years ago, which I think is kind of amazing as I study some of these things. They seem so alive, and yet they're... from a 3,000-year-old, even longer, but written tradition.

[21:01]

Once a while ago, the senior staff was going to go out to lunch, and someone said, but we shouldn't be spending Zen Center's money that way. You know, that's not right. There's food here. We've already paid for it. I said, well, you know, I kind of know what you mean, but what about celebration? What about making this special effort to do something like that? And I thought about that a lot. Can you hold both? This sense of responsibility and carefulness and frugality and this other thing about celebration and getting together in a different way. context to celebrate each other. So in a way, what is religion? Like, what are we doing here? What is it we want? And for me, it seems to be about meaning in the midst of a human condition.

[22:15]

Practice or religious intention or religious community or faith community life. It gives a context for understanding the human condition or agreeing to be in it. Another piece of this is when I was reading Again, you know, the Ten Commandments and all these laws that follow it, follow those. I noticed how similar the Ten Commandments are to the Buddhist precepts, but also a lot of the laws seem sort of, they kind of hurt. You know, there's the law that we all know, the eye for an eye. And I read this description of it, or an explanation or commentary on it, and it said... Actually, all these rules and laws are in order to establish and hold together a community.

[23:28]

And the reason they made laws about if this happens, then this happens, was to make sure that things didn't develop into these vendettas or these long revenge series of things or feuds that would divide the community. that was the reason that those rules were offered to the community. So they end up coming down to respect for each other, recognition of each other as all being worthy of life and integrity, and also in a way they define Our interactions, whether they're good or bad, or supportive or destructive, they have this context of laws that describe how we relate to each other.

[24:33]

So I think that there's lots of different reasons that we come to practice or to faith. And it often sort of has this beginning in this kind of desire for something, wanting, needing something, and a kind of aversion for what we no longer want. And then we develop. in energy and intention. And I think what we move towards is joy and gratitude. And they're not the conventional, sort of conditional types of joy and gratitude, but kind of giving up almost. And I think that never ends like that. shifts and it continues and it you don't stop in one place the desire and aversion arise again the energy and tension arise again and the joy and gratitude arise again and somehow you if you're lucky you remember them through all the rest of it and but we engage in all that

[26:25]

whatever our reasons or stage or frame we're in at any particular time, with community. We can't help it. And with the variety of people, which can be challenging and also wonderful. And sometimes we're the challenge to others. So what about that? You know, how we just have... remember, desire and immersion, intention, energy and joy and gratitude and all held in this place of mystery that can be very wide and very gentle and very demanding. So does God exist? Does religion matter? I don't think those questions will ever be answered for anyone or everyone, but they're actually ancient questions, and I think that I see them as I try to understand the texts of Judeo-Christian religion.

[27:38]

What? They are asking, they've always been asking, everyone's always been asking those questions. And what do we do? Do we make deals with the gods by making sacrifices? Or do we take this responsibility for how we decide to live our lives and relate to something else rather than these conditional giving and taking relationships with mysterious forces. And I think that the that we continue to care and worry and wonder about who it is we're bowing to and why, whether that's something inside of us, whether it's something we bow to because we share it with everyone. And those thoughts have their own vitality, and I think keeping those questions alive is more important than answering them.

[28:49]

all I have to say because I actually was kind of scared to talk about all this stuff. But I don't know if anyone would like to say anything or ask a question. Yes, Greg. I don't know the answer. But I know that for me, whether or not I admit that there's God or gods, I do stuff that admits it. That's what I meant by offering incense. And, you know, there's this... I don't know anyone who doesn't have some sort of mysterious relationship with how things work.

[29:59]

Someone once said to me, oh, well, scientists don't. And I said, but they're not always right. Their whole point of science is to keep making mistakes until you understand something. And then usually you're wrong. Because a little bit later somebody disproves it. And so you're always in the mystery. You don't know the answer. So in a way, I don't know if it's about... identifying deities or gods or a god, but there's something mysterious. Does that answer your question? Do you have another question? That's okay. Ask it again. It's a yes or no question. Do you agree that it's possible to have religion without belief in God or gods? And I said, I don't know. I think, you know, those are the questions I'm asking.

[31:02]

Does God exist? Does religion have matter? Those are the questions I think we keep alive so we don't say, I don't believe in God, therefore I'm right. Because the God I believe in, I don't believe in. I might say that. It's not in my mind right now. I have looked it up and I can't remember. Someone's saying yes. Thank you. Thank you. to believe it's possible that it has gratitude to something which is unfounded.

[32:12]

It's mystery. Without personifying it as a, of something separate. Gratitude and devotion. There is something possible, but doesn't it have a personification? Do you think God is a personification or that when people sometimes try to relate to God, they personify God?

[33:18]

It's a name like that. Yes. The Eloist. That's the Eloist God. But it's a gift too. I think that's something that I've understood over time. That precepts is a gift that is balanced by celebration and meaning and fondament. I understand the precepts in Buddhism as being anything about thou shalt, but thou shalt not. I understand the precepts as being this is how an awake person lives. And I think that that's how I understand the Ten Commandments. They're very similar.

[34:18]

Yeah, they're very similar, but they come of them, I think. I said that people have different opinions. My opinion is that it is a religion. No, it's not. It's more that there's a doctrine that's associated with the belief system. So there's definitely, Buddhism is full of doctrine, sutras and vinaya, you know, and all that sort of thing.

[35:21]

So I looked it up. Just to make sure you didn't have to ever do it again, you know. But we make them. We have them all up here. You know, the beginning of... in the basic Judeo-Christian religion nothing was up on the altar and same with Buddhism nothing was up there but we need somehow we have this desire for these beings to have be like us so that we can relate to them or something I don't know what it is for each person but I certainly there are figures that move me or touch me And some of them are scary figures, but they, you know, like the Guardian, but they somehow mean something. They show me something. So we put stuff up there, you know, to relate to that one.

[36:25]

Hey, Lou. You say that then... And why does that make me happy? That's what I keep wondering. Why does that make me happy? It always has. Oh, I think that from my experience, particularly with some people at Zen Center who have a hard time actually coming into the Buddha Hall to do service because it reminds them, the incense even, of their experience in church particularly.

[37:39]

And thinking how... We take that experience and then we say, well, that is what that stuff is. Buddhism is different. The precepts are different. Instead of, well, they're actually pretty much the same, but we hear those other ones in a different way. I think that this habit of hearing Judeo-Christian religion as being something oppressive and strict... And, you know, making us feel guilt rather than joy or, you know, meaning or something like that is something we kind of have learned in a way. And now, you know, we think that this is different. And yes, it is. And it's also not. Our intention is just fresher, maybe.

[38:40]

Yes. Thank you for saying that that was one thing that I was really curious about myself and my attraction to this, whether it's a religion or not. But you brought up a talk in the comments of diversity. And you kind of bring light to the fact that within that Christian area, that people want to be considered as kind of a dialogue about it, or to get a power into it being a religion. Well, it's partly in the sense of our intention to have interfaith relationships. And then also from my experience of being someone who is interested in God and religion, that sort of thing, feeling as though I was not supposed to talk about it. And actually hearing people sit in this seat and say, don't worry, there's no God here. Well, you know, maybe you have an interest in including that, you know.

[39:50]

And that's not a criticism, but it's, you know, what are we doing? Can it be okay for somebody to come from that place of wanting that old cultural tradition to stay with them? Should we say, well, this is only for people who don't? have those beliefs. To me, that sort of closes a certain way of relating and understanding religion and why we come together as a community to practice morality and celebration together at the same time. Is that only done in this way? Or can we include the multiplicity of experience of that? So that was... Thank you for asking. Have that not be something, not close that.

[41:01]

That's part of what we do here. Okay. Well, thank you very much.

[41:15]

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