Thank you. Welcome to the Saturday Talk at the San Francisco Zen Center.

[02:38]

Today our teacher is Reverend Leanne Schutt and Leanne trained at San Francisco Zen Center for many years and is a Dharma heir of our former abbot Blanche Hartman. She currently lives and teaches in Oakland at Access to Zen and also online and all around and you can find her teachings and workshops that she's leading at access to Zen.org. And I'll put that in the chat later as well. And the mission of access to Zen is just that to remove barriers to Zen practice and ideas about Buddhism as being sort of not for everyone. And so I will offer the opening verse, and then Leanne may begin. An unsurpassed penetrating and perfect dharma is rarely met with, even in a hundred thousand million galvas, having it to see and listen to.

[03:58]

to remember and accept. I vow to taste the truth of the Tathagata's words. Thank you, Brian. Of course, thank you to City Center Abbott, David Zimmerman, Tantos, who invited me, Nancy Petran, and Anna Thorne, and Of course, do my teachers pass as a gay blind Tartman and Vicki Austin and Gil Fronstell. Otherwise, I wouldn't be here. And thank you to you all. Ryan, is it possible to unmute everyone? Because I thought everyone could say hi to each other. And do you remember Hollywood Square people are old enough? Without the misogyny, we'll do the high to the rectangles.

[05:00]

And then don't forget the bigger rectangle, I like to say. So go to the other pages and say hi. And let's use names. And that way, you know, we can kind of have more connection, even though it's online here on Zoom. All right, let's do it. I'm going to go to gallery view for a minute here. All right. Hello. Hello everyone. Hi. [...] All right. The best part of the Dharma talk is done.

[06:18]

Feel free. Thanks again. It was great to hear all your voices. All right. My pronouns are she and her. I'm zooming in from Great and Rancheria land, otherwise known these days as Monterio or Guerneville area. And thanks to Sangha member for the access to this place. And just to clarify, because it sounded a little odd to me, and I don't think that was intention, but my mission of access to Zen is to break down barriers to Zen, not necessarily. It sounded a little bit like we're for the barriers, but no, the Dharma gates are open to everyone. All right. to talk about how we could practice together in difficult times, because for many of us, it's still difficult times. I think with the rise of COVID again and just the shifts in transition, I think it's a hard time.

[07:25]

And of course, with everything that's going on in our country and in the world, the wars and the cultural wars also and the political wars that we're having. conflicts if you want to go all the way to war. So there's still, I think, a lot of suffering in the world. And so I always think it's my job to provide some kind of encouragement. So I know that for many of us, myself included, I just came out of retreat and I was really happy to be doing it. Because in difficult time, I'm like, I need more meditation, I need more zazen, I need to practice more. And I think it's a useful practice for sure to find more grounding. And I really want to bring in that, how do we balance the sense of personal practice and a sense of stability for ourselves?

[08:29]

And how can we also get that in interaction? I wanted to talk about that today. So this is from Gil. He says, this is from the IMC site. He says, it can be easy to think Buddhist practice is individualistic and solitary. Teachings on being mindful of oneself and taking responsibility for one's actions can seem to emphasize a focus on oneself. The practice of sitting in meditation with one's eyes closed in their tradition, open in hours, can also suggest that Buddhism is about separating oneself from society. And certainly an important part of practice is personal and inwardly focused. This is only a part of what Buddhist practice is about. A much more significant part of practice is interpersonal. It concerns the rich world of our relationships with other. In fact, the interpersonal teaching and practices of Buddhism create the context and the foundation for the inner personal practice, such as meditation.

[09:35]

So I think it is true that in Western convert Buddhist centers, we focus much more on meditation, on the mind and mental development, otherwise known as bhavana. Whereas in a lot of Buddhist countries and Buddhist communities, heritage Buddhists, the emphasis is much more on actually on dana and generosity as the beginning, excuse me, dana, generosity and sila or virtue or ethical conduct as the beginning of practice. And we actually see it on a lot of lists that the Buddha give for ways of practicing. So the three practice for lay people or otherwise known as the three basis of merit is giving or dana and then virtue and then mental development. 10 virtues of a ruler. Giving, virtue, altruism, honesty, kindness, self-control, non-anger, non-violence, patience, uprightness.

[10:41]

Sometimes I wonder if we had a Buddhist leading the country or in the halls of powers in this country, how it might be different. And maybe that's just a hopeful wish on my part. To continue the list, there's 10 wholesome actions to cultivate or to purify one's karma. And again, giving virtue begins that mental cultivation, another way to put meditation, humility, service, sharing merit, rejoicing in the merit of others, listening to the Dharma, teaching the Dharma, straightening out one's views. And then of course, in the six Paramitas, It's giving virtue, patience or tolerance, diligence, contemplation and wisdom. So of course, in the Zen tradition, we focus on six paramitas as ways in which it's really as a character development of a bodhisattva or Buddha.

[11:42]

So Robert Aiken in the practice of perfection, the paramitas from a Zen Buddhist perspective says. So again, most let's begin with dhāna. So generally, dhāna is the spirit and act of generosity. This dhāna is intimately tied with karma, cause and effect, while its neglect too has inevitable consequences. It is the dhāna paramita that the Buddhist teaching of universal harmony is put into practice. Mutual interdependence becomes mutual I'm going to repeat that. Mutual interdependence becomes mutual intersupport. It's practice that is not only Buddhist, but perennial as well. The earth itself flourishes by what Emerson calls the endless circulation of the divine charity. The very stars hold themselves on course through a mutual interchange of energy.

[12:47]

And he goes on to say, From a personal perspective, you will find that it is easier and more natural than the word sacrifice implies. Because sometimes we think of dhana as giving up things, right? Also, it is important to take care of one who gives. Otherwise, the flow dries up. Recreation, or you also put re-creation, is important for the bodhisattva. Finally, is it compassion, he asks? Yes. but specific kind of compassion that arises with gratitude. The English word gratitude is related to grace. It's the enjoyment of receiving as expressed in giving. It is living, vivid mirror in which giving and receiving forms a dynamic practice of interaction. For receiving too is a practice. Look at the Japanese word arigato, Japanese for thank you.

[13:48]

It means literally I have difficulty. In other words, your kindness makes it hard for me to respond with equal grace. Yet the practice of gift-giving lies at the heart of Japanese culture. The word arigato expresses the practice of receiving. Lastly, he says, dhana brightens and clarifies the dharma, the Buddha way, and with continued unfolding, it brings natural authority for more brightening and clarifying. You see its power in those who are acknowledged as leader in traditional society. In Buddhist history, it is Tao Shua, forgive my pronunciation, relinquishing his role of master and returning to practice as a monk. In relinquishing conventional power, he found the authority of the timeless, passes it to us, and with each gift of empowerment, The strength of dhana in the world is enhanced.

[14:52]

The wheel of the Dharma turns accordingly. Gil, continue from the other part that I started with, says, though many people don't start Buddhist practice this way, traditionally is said to begin with creating healthy relationship with others. This part of the path is usually called training and sila virtue. Excuse me while I move, the sun is reflecting there. All right, so we begin with Donna, with this mutuality as a basis of our practice, right? Not that it's only my power that makes practice happen, but how do we make practice accessible to everyone and how do we practice together? And then what supports us to do that in a skillful and wise way is Xila for sure, which is the precepts. So traditionally, Sheila is translated as ethical conduct and the precepts.

[15:55]

Other translations are Kamala Masters, who I just finished sitting with online. She's part of the Vipassana Mehta Foundation in Maui. I call it non-harmful living originally. And just now I realized that she has changed it to harmonious living. And I know that Blanche talked a lot about harmony. And of course, the Sangha is harmony from Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. And I think we do talk a lot in Zen about Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. And then we don't actually say a lot how to practice in Sangha. And I think that certainly Dana and the precepts and Kalyanamitra or spiritual friendship, which I'm going to talk about mostly today. our practices of Sangha. So to go back to the precepts, I'm not gonna say a lot about it as I just did a whole spiel on it at the end of April at City Center when there was the Jukai and in general, I am calling the ethical conduct section these days, I'm calling it compassionate connection to very much highlight that this is about our interaction with each other.

[17:17]

And the guidelines of the precepts supports us to live in harmony and compassionately with each other. And the precepts as a practice is for us to actually protect ourselves from our unawareness of our behavior, our habitual patterns and how that impacts others. And so when we practice the precepts, we're actually not only protecting ourselves and how we interact with the world, we're also giving a message to other that we are safe people as we're upholding the precepts as a place of refuge for others, right? And it's the same ideally with communities or sanghas that they can be thought of as safe places for others. And so the third way is in this talk is Kalyanamitra or Kalyanamitta in the Pali.

[18:25]

And the translation is usually of a good spiritual friend or beautiful or admirable friend. Trungpa Rinpoche calls it friends in the virtue, which I think certainly ties in with the precepts. And so it is about how do we live in community together. And that's the precept and Kalyanamitra intertwined. So I'm going to talk about it and mostly in the framework of as Gil puts it, which is that we're going to talk about it as an example or how to demonstrate Buddhist teachings as support and encouragement. including feedback and then as how do we have interaction with each other talking about the Dharma. All right.

[19:27]

Additionally, he says the idea that good friendships are the precursor for the path of practice was particularly important in the pre-literate times of the Buddha. No books that would introduce people to the teaching and practice. The introduction always came in person through a good spiritual friend. You know, I just call it a retreat at IRC with Bruni Davila and certainly a lot of people who come to practice. Perhaps, you know, it's true that many of us read books and stuff before and how you actually get to a practice place is often very much through another person. talking about a place. That's why for most of us, that's why we're interested in trying out a place. And so the sense of someone as an actual person introducing you or being the conduit, you could say, for you to come to practice is certainly part of spiritual friendship. So again, the first is by example to demonstrate how Buddhist teaching can be practiced and expressed.

[20:36]

And for me, it actually started out with the Women of Color group through Spirit Rock. It was Dr. Marlene Jones, who has since passed away, and Dr. Margarita Loinas. The Women of Color group met at the Harriet Tubman Building in Marin City Community Center, which, by the way, housed African-American shipyard workers during World War II. you know, and in some ways, the setting one chooses and provides a certain kind of historical access for sure. And not as a self promotion, but I will say I did just get to interview Margarita Loinas on the opening Dharma access the podcast that we've started. So you can find that on the website, really interesting conversation I had with her about both of us being around for the last Of course, herself much longer, but in the Bay Area, Brutusine since the late 90s.

[21:41]

So that's an interesting conversation if you want to listen to that. And then I wanted to talk a little bit about Marlene, because it just has brought up in me how much gratitude I have for the people that has brought me to practice. And Marlene has passed, and so... It's actually from a talk she gave at City Center in 2009, it's called Savoring. And she talked about her practice, how in the 1970s, she started on yoga and meditation, as in many people. And she would sit like three minutes, then five minutes, then 10, 20, until one day she said that, a still place in my spirit arose. And there was no desire to get up, by that she meant to move, right? And she said that at first, you know, the background in church for her really brought up in her that it wasn't okay, meditation wasn't okay.

[22:49]

And so, as for many of us, she started out with books, she sat by herself, and then she missed community. you know, like at church. And so finally, that's how she came to Sangha and to the Monday nights with Jack Cornfield. And she said that some of the difficulty she had was that at tea time afterwards, you know, people would come up to her and say, what are you doing here? I thought black people like Baptist church, right? Or dancing. And so she would sit with her back to the wall a lot. And several times she would get up to leave. until one day Jack came up to her and he never talked to her before and said, try to stick it out. And then she said, and now I teach his class on Monday night. So that has been a big accomplishment for her. And then the two things that she brought up as what she thought was that she had gotten as guidelines or supports of practice,

[23:54]

is that it's a time for silence and stillness, and that that was an individual practice for sure. And then it's also a time for forming and relating to communities for oneself, and then, or to a specific community, and then to, of course, to the bigger Sangha we like to say, the community of all beings. So how do we balance these two, right? An individual time, for silence and stillness and how do we relate to each other? And of course, to me, having started on Vipassana, our insight, American insight, actually I find Zen practice much harder because to me Zen practice is community practice. You know, most of our practice isn't about we're doing this ourselves only, we're doing it together. I know when I was taught, as an instruction uh in the days when we still took people down to the zendo and i certainly um you know shadow blanche as as um my my training and and vicky also um you know we talked about how when you bow to the cushion you know we're bowing to okay this is how the time in which i'm going to commit to practice um and then when we turn around and we bow to

[25:23]

the room, we're bowing actually to everyone at this moment, one, that's practicing together and everyone in the zendo. And then we're also, in both of those, really acknowledging all the people who sat on that cushion and that spot and all the beings that have sat with us and at the same time in the zendo as practicing together. And so much of our practice in Zen is about interaction, right? The bowing, we walk in a quadrant and it's not, when I teach meditation these days, I do teach Vipassana, walking meditation, and then I teach also Zen. And I say it's not about how slow do I go, it's about actually keeping that space equal between the person in front of you and the person behind you. It calls on us to be aware of ourself in relation to other as a community practice.

[26:27]

It's not about how slow do I go and then everyone backs up. And it's about sometimes you can take big steps. You can hurry up a little just to make sure that space between the person in front of you and behind you stays the same. So I think how do we... really find examples to help us. This goes into the first part of Kalyanamitra as an example. And of course, the ultimate, well, I would say one of the ultimate example of a Kalyanamitra is the Shuso, the head monk, who shows up. Actually, when I became Shuso, Blanche said, your most important task is to show up. right, is to show up and take your seat and be an example. And we go and we clean the toilets, you know, or do the compost at, well, people do the compost at Tassajara.

[27:33]

So you do the dirty work, so to speak, or, and another way you can think of it is the place where everyone has to go. And I don't mean, I didn't mean the pun. You know, everyone uses the toilet. So you're there cleaning the space that everyone is interacting with, right? And then of course you serve tea to people. You're here to find out about others and to connect with others. And it is a way in which we, in a way we practice, start practicing, leading practice discussion. But again, practice discussion is really about the interaction. You know, when people, because I do teach in the world mostly and not at temples, people aren't quite sure what a practice discussion is. And I often say, well, one, the tangible is that I'm here to support your practice. And so you bring up questions about, you know, Dharma points or how does it relate to your life?

[28:36]

How does practice can be part of your life? And then the intangible part is that it's an opportunity to know that two people are meeting completely, which the secret, of course, is that we already are, and how do we know it is the container of a practice discussion. That's my take. And I will say that, as I understand it, in the North American convert community, a teacher is seen much more as your Kalyana Mitra, like your spiritual friend. Whereas in the Zen tradition, and certainly as I understand it in Japan, when I practice there, is that your teacher is your master, right? And while you can be friendly, there certainly is that whole sense that this master is someone who, there is authority there, and it's someone who has mastered the practice and therefore is an example to you.

[29:42]

and helps lead your practice and supports your practice. And then as my understanding in the Vajarana tradition, the guru is very much another step. They are responsible for you for all your lifetime. That's how committed that relationship is, right? So of course, now that I'm a teacher, I look back at again, Dr. Marlene Joan and Margarita Loinus, and Riamon Gutierrez-Bauderquin, certainly, and Blanche, Vicky, Gill these days, really were good examples for me of ways of teaching. So Khyana Mitras also support and encourage, right? They share the same values. And that can make all the difference in whether we're practicing or not, certainly. I know that a while back, while I was at a retreat at IRC, excuse me, at Spirit Rock, you know, there was a question and answer at the end.

[30:56]

And in that tradition, they actually suggest that people, when they go back, start a little Kalyana Mitra group as a way to keep on practicing. And a man in a small town in Texas, you know, literally was crying when he's saying, it took so much time and effort for me to get here and I'm isolated in this small town. So it's so wonderful to hear that, you know, this is something that I can find other ways of practicing with others by literally, you know, just putting up, in those days, we still put up little signs on boards to say, hey, there's a sitting group, come, Come sit with us. And of course, in Zen, it's very important to have teachers. And so Vicki, she's on Vicki Austin and Gil Fransdell, of course, are my support and encouragement. So the support and encouragement can also be feedback. And two ways that Gil talk about it.

[31:59]

One is about mirrored by others. And I think that's really important. that the mirroring happens to see others like ourselves reflected up in the teaching seat or in key roles in the Sangha. And certainly, I remember one of my, I think it was my first practice period back from Tassajara at City Center when Janna Draka was the Shusau. And it really, The one thing that really resonated with me and has stuck with me is she said that we ordain to live a life of transparency. We ordain to live a life of transparency. And this also ties in with the precepts. As we practice more and more, we realize that our conduct and we actually teach most by example. And the precepts certainly support us to do that.

[33:02]

And so when we're incongruent with our values, it's kind of a natural thing to say, I have nothing to hide, do you know? I'm transparent here. Which doesn't mean we don't have privacy. It just means that our conduct is in accordance with our values. Personally, that's how I would frame it. Of course, the Sangha can provide support and encouragement. I want to do a call out to my co-caretakers, we called ourselves when the Buddhists of Color started, which we met on Sundays at City Center. Jessica Tan and Lauren Leslie and Evelyn Shin were the original caretakers of the Buddhists of Color, one of the first people of color group in the Bay Area in the 90s. And then, you know, I just finished teaching Lotus Rising from the Mud. class series at Spirit Rock online for people of Asian American heritage.

[34:10]

And originally originated from originally from as a response to all the Asian American hatred and at the beginning in particular at the rise of it or another rise of it at the beginning of the pandemic. And then as I was saying, I was just co-leading a retreat with Bruni Davila, the LGBTQIA2 plus retreat at IRC. And, you know, I know that when I, you know, we do like this opening circle there, and I came in and I, you know, I have taught that retreat one other time with Bruni, just before the pandemic. Even since that time, actually, the A and the two plus got added to the name because I remember the feedback last time was that, how come asexual is never included?

[35:13]

And so that's how, and then I don't know the history behind the two plus, but my sense is that it's to be more inclusive. And so I started out by saying, you know what, I might, you know, I've been out as a lesbian for, gosh, almost 40 years now, but I think I might be coming out on another level because of this retreat. And that is that they part, I have been really, as you can see, you know, today, I said I'm a she and a they, and I have thought about being a they before. And for me, the sense is not so much as a binary of gender, though I do think You know, in the 80s, we didn't have the non-binary, so we said androgynous. However, it's much more about that I've always felt like I've been gender non-conforming, and that's certainly part of the inclusiveness of the deep refuge group.

[36:14]

You know, in the EBMC, this is what they call affinity groups or deep refuge. And I think that really reflects the sense that because of the depth of our connection, it's important to have these groups in which we can really have a deeper and deeper sense of safety, of not having to explain ourselves or really being questioned. And though I will say ironically that even at this last retreat, there was some talk among the teachers about when we introduce the use of pronouns as an option, that there are still people out there, even within our community, that say, well, whichever. And it isn't really about whichever, which I'll talk a little bit more in a few minutes here. So the feedback that we get can also be explicit. As Gil puts it, by developing friendship, we can create the trust and goodwill that allows for frank discussion

[37:26]

our behavior, our practice, and our understanding. And I will also add a structural sense of whether the practice is accessible to all beings or not, or how it can be more accessible to groups that we have been unconscious about, or that our unconsciousness has brought less access to. Gill continues, it's quite common for others to see things about ourselves that we don't see, this is back to a self thing, having these things pointed out can be extremely helpful. An example I have is when I was back at Tassajara and I was head of the garden. I was coming out of our two practice period, And I was there for six practice periods, so I can't remember if it was the second year or third year, but definitely into it. And you know, when you come out of practice period, you're very tender.

[38:28]

And as head of the garden, we actually, you know, we had started starters and then we put them in the ground. And then it was a lot of work because we're in the forest. you know, so all sorts of animal eat our starters and we would have all sorts of protection. So it was just like a lot of work and a lot of effort for sure. And so one day, you know, so doing Soji as the garden crew, we would go and turn on the other water so that there will be some watering right and a lot of it has to do with if the head of the grounds goes down to the in those days I don't know where it is now to the bathhouse area to turn on the pump right and that's how we got the water from the river to through all the pipes so that it would go into the in particular my memory of this experience into the lower garden and

[39:36]

So I had gone to turn it on and there was no water. Greg Fane was the head of grounds or head of whatever they call him of the, he was supposed to turn on the pump and he had forgotten for whatever reason. And I was so upset because I was like, These plants will die, because you know how hot it gets at Tassajara, right? Water is like precious to these plants. And I was so mad, so mad that I took it into a practice discussion with Leslie. And my whole thing coming out of practice is like, these plants... these little young plants, they will die, Leslie, without water. Like this is like a huge thing that Greg has done because these little baby plants will die, you know, and that was where I was coming from. And that was like my reasoning why I justified to be so mad at Greg for forgetting to turn on the pump.

[40:41]

And you know, and Leslie reflected back at me that what am I doing in my anger about killing my friendship with Greg. Because luckily I had enough practice to have the discussion with her before I went and yelled at Greg. I think I did leave a note, if I remember correctly. But I restrained myself. And you know, she reflected back. Like, what about your friendship with Greg? That's also part of what's important here, right? So that was really a really great reflection back about where we might have or I have a sense of justifiable anger that when I opened it up and included all beings, including Greg, as my Kalyana Mitra, then certainly it's another place to see where restraint works really well and to brighten up our sense of understanding.

[41:43]

And so, you know, this support and encouragement, you're not seeing what we would call positive efforts. And here's from Roshi Wendy Ekyoku Nakao. She's the Abbot Emeritus of Zen Center of LA. And this is on spiritual friendship. She wrote, Kanyanamitra is the Sanskrit word for spiritual friendship. This friendship is something much more than someone to hang out with, but rather connotes a person or even a thing. that becomes our guide, a teacher, and serves to inspire us along our path to awakening. There's a common Zen expression that when the student is ready, the teacher appears. Ready or not, teachers are constantly appearing in our lives, but sometimes it is difficult to recognize because we are looking for someone that meets our image or idea of, quote, teacher, end quote.

[42:49]

or we regard this person or thing as an obstacle in our life rather than as something that can awaken us to life's meaning. For instance, we could say that illness is Kalyanamitra. The death of a sibling can be Kalyanamitra. The birth of a child can be Kalyanamitra. Falling in love can be Kalyanamitra. In short, anything which shakes us out of our ongoing slumber and creates an opening to a vista beyond our narrow image or experience of self-ego, is a spiritual friend worthy of our gratitude. So part of spiritual friendship is actually finding people that we can have Dharma discussions together. And you know, I will say that one thing is when I went to Tassajara, I suddenly realized in the student dining room one lunchtime that I found my people.

[44:00]

Because in the summer in particular, we talked about movies. Because people got to go out on their day off, you know, to go do a laundry at a laundromat and eat somewhere and then go to the movie because it was air conditioned. Right. Many of us went to the movie and then you come back and tell people the latest thing about the movie. And we talked about my memory. We talked a lot about movies and a lot about Dharma points. And so it was just like a place in which I felt like, oh, my two favorite things get to come together. Of course, it can be a much more deeper kind of. of interactions. And in fact, at this LGBTQIA2 plus retreat, you know, that the great thing there at IRC is that, or my experience of it as really something to uplift, is that everything's volunteer to start with. And for the affinity retreats,

[45:05]

They ask that all those, what they call service volunteers, the manager of the retreat, the general manager of the whole retreat, the head cook, the people will help. If they're not part of the affinity group of their retreat, that while they're there at the opening circle, then actually then they move back and they don't even... they're asked not to even attend warning zazen, which is part of the schedule for them, right? Because it then gives this really clear container for the affinity group to practice in the place of safety. And so of course it brings up for people like, hey, you know, what about me, right? And, you know, a lot of it can be in a sense of, from a place of not, that I'm being excluded, but really, you know, I'm questioning this myself, right?

[46:08]

And especially I think these days, at least in the Bay Area and in my, and I would say, you know, in the country, in the world, LGBTQ rights have really blossomed, you know? And so it brought up a lot of, for people about, oh, well, I'm questioning too, right? And someone came to have a discussion with me And on one level, I really celebrated that they were able to say, oh, is this true for me or not? Because I have a lot of friends that are queer. In fact, all my best friends are queer and all the best discussions I have about the Dharma with these. And I said, well, I think that's great. And I think it's great that you're questioning. And we wanna really... think of this or view this on two levels. One is that on a personal level, I really celebrate that you're questioning and that the environment of our culture these days is that it's really big these days for people to say, oh, you know, maybe I'm queer too or I'm not binary or I've been gender nonconforming all these years, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[47:21]

And so I can be a they or I can be in this retreat, right? And I, you know, And I really see it a lot in younger and younger kids, right? For instance, some friends, I know a 20-year-old that my partner is kind of like her auntie. And, you know, there was discussion about, you know, what do they identify as? And they said, oh, you know, we don't use queer anymore. bisexual, we're pansexual. That's the new term, I guess, for 20-year-olds now around gender identity and sexuality. And I think that's great that the culture has been really open, right? Which also, by the way, one level is great on another. I think certainly homophobia and heterosexism is still around that we even have to kind of

[48:26]

as opposed to it being something that we don't have to question per se, but we can just explore openly, right? However, I think the other piece I want to really point out is that on a personal level, that's great. However, there's real responsibility to claiming a identity of an oppressed group. because for those in the oppressed group where it isn't a choice or it doesn't present itself as a choice, right? Where your whole being has been oppressed about this, right? And so it's a fear. It's a life, literally life-threatening for, you know, the suicide rate is super high. in the trans community, especially for trans youth, right?

[49:26]

So it's a very different thing, right? And one way that we can frame that is on the individual level, and this is very supported by the capitalist, by patriarchy, by our bigger dominant culture, is that I should have the freedom to, I should have the freedom to do whatever I want, call myself whatever I want. I think it's, you know, on one level, that's... There's validity to that. However, freedom from is what Buddhist practice is about. And freedom from that includes freedom from hatred, greed, and delusion. And so from inside an oppressed group, it's the freedom from. You know, when I assert myself as a fey from inside the community, it comes with it. To me, part of my struggle these years have been because I understand how important it is in the identity, right? Not just as like a self-referencing, but as from the fact that it comes with it.

[50:33]

Am I willing to be responsible? And this is what I was talking with this person. Do you understand that, are you willing to be part of this community and not hide, not pass if you need to, or to assert it when they come for you? It's not just a matter of self-identity, right? So it's a real freedom from hatred, from inside in the press group. Oh, I'm gone beyond my time here. So I'm gonna actually go past a little bit here and just, I'll just go to the ending. I have a few more things to say, but I'm just gonna go to the ending here. Because I really do wanna have... some interaction with you all. So here's the end of Roshi Wendi Igeoku Nakao writing. I believe it's Shushishi, so I say, she says, Kalyanamitra, as anything which shakes us out of our ongoing slumber and creates an opening to a vista beyond our narrow image or experience of ego self,

[51:45]

He says, the Great Wisdom Heart Sutra is truly one of the great expression of spiritual friendship. In this sutra, Shakyamuni Buddha expounds the truth of emptiness of all phenomena for his disciple, Shariputra. He points Shariputra to prajna wisdom, the unsurpassable wisdom. Anything and anyone who points us to this wisdom is a spiritual friend. But the Heart Sutra does not stop at our own realization. It concludes with the great mantra, the vivid mantra, the unsurpassable mantra of gate, gate, paragate, parsam gate, bodhis vaha. It means gone, gone, gone beyond, together go beyond. This together speaks directly to our most basic vow to save all beings. A realization only truly comes alive when it is used in the service of others and helping others awaken to life's essential nature, to recognize and appreciate the spiritual friends in our life, you yourself serving others in this way, and others and things continually befriending you, pointing to the unsurpassable wisdom that is our life.

[53:11]

Thank you for your... attention and your patience as I went over there. And I'm happy to take any questions, reflections, discoveries. I like to call them Q&D these days, discoveries. Anyone in the Zoom room can. Raise your Zoom hand and I will call on you if I may just offer the closing verse, which is our custom here. Sorry, Brian. Okay. May our intention equally extend to every being and place with the true merit of Buddha's way. Beings are numberless. I vow to save them. Delusions are inexhaustible.

[54:17]

I vow to end them. Dharma gates are boundless. I vow to enter them. Buddha's way is unsurpassable. I vow to be committed. Thank you very much, Amy. You should be able to unmute and anybody else please join the queue. Thank you so much for putting expression words to what I am just now beginning to experience. So my Kalyana Mehta is illness and it's put me in this wonderful place of being in front of the unknown and watching myself alternate between feeling that it is an unbearable discomfort to stay in front of the unknown and there's all these pathways of imagination

[55:32]

I could go down. And I think it's my spiritual friends, you know, my actual sangha at city center and my oldest spiritual friends who are making, who are allowing me to look again and question, is that true? Does the unknown make me, you know, have to move away from it or, Is it possible to see that space not as a cold void of unknowing, but a warm space of boundless Dharma gates? And question, you know, is that true? And it hadn't occurred to me really to think of the unknown itself as a special friend in some sense.

[56:39]

And can you say something more about that? Thank you. Thank you, Amy, for that sharing. I'm not sure I can say more. You did it so well. Gosh, I think, you know, actually, let's bring up tears because I realized like, And so much of our practice is about getting closer and closer to our suffering, you know? And life sometimes presents us with very clear suffering that we don't have a choice whether we need or not. And actually every moment is doing that. And so, so much of our practice is that how can we keep on including this as a friend? And I will say, you know, This is why many of you know, I also teach Vipassana as a way of accessing them. And not really, I mean, by that I just mean the path that goes both ways, right?

[57:44]

And I go to these Vipassana Ruchitta to hide now that I have a lot of responsibility. I've just become another yogi. And I will say that the one thing that practice really is supportive for me is the sense that we keep opening up to what is here. We are not so specific about that. You know, this is what I like about Vipassana practice. They're very specific. They don't leave a lot of things to imagination on a certain level. They say, just pay attention here and then can you just keep including here? In Zen, we do that by our expression. right, by the container. And so it's implicit in Zen, but it's not explicit. And sometimes that explicitness is really useful because it reminds us, oh yeah, oh yeah, this is also practice, oh yeah.

[58:46]

You know, because what are we practicing for? To live, right? And we keep thinking, oh, living will happen when I've done suffering, or when that suffering's gone, or that person's gone because they're suffering, then I get to have my real life, or which person can I bring in to have a real life? That's the other part, of course. And so much of our practice is about this too, this too, this too. We say practice, but we're really saying, we're practicing to live. That's what we're practicing. So we keep saying, oh, this is life. This is life. This is life. How do I keep opening up? This is life. This is life. This is life. I don't know. I don't know. Like I said, you did it so well. I'm not sure if that was useful. Thank you, Amy. Miguel, my friend. Hi, how are you? I'm well. Good to see you. I appreciate I really appreciate your talk.

[59:46]

I think that one of the things that resonated with me is one, the notion of affinity groups and the spiritual friend. And I think the hard part for me has been that a lot of my spiritual practices boiled down as coming from a negative place, for lack of a better term. In other words, back in the old days when I was a chef, I used to give the best advice to all my little nieces and nephews about approaching the grill or approaching the stove because my arms were littered. in burn marks and scars. And it was very easy for me to point at a mark. Like I had the most infamous one was a burn that went from the base of my thumb to about the fold of my elbow, a long black mark. And I would just show it to the kids like, this is why I don't want you by the grill. And I'd let them poke at it. And they're like, oh God, like, yeah. And I've noticed that that had become kind of my, over the last 10, 15 years has been kind of like my impetus for practice something bad happens and then i strive to be good and i'm finding that incredibly draining because it's it's um it's like i'm looking for water only not only when i'm thirsty but when i'm parched i'm looking better only when i'm sick i can only empathize when someone is completely hurting i can only come from that point of empathy uh there there is a kind of a

[61:12]

lack of sympathetic joy so one thing that like is difficult for me especially within buddhist practice within religious practice within people practice is that i keep seeing people like knocking down the idea of a safe space or why do you bring your identity into this practice and it's infuriating because it's one of these things where like i Don't have the privilege of leaving it at the door. When I walk into the building, I'm a six foot three Mexican who has been identified by police as the possible threat. I don't go outside with a toy gun. I can't leave that. But I'm tired of coming from there. So. How do you. Yeah, no, no, please, because I'm like, yeah, I'm just surprised at this point. My main point is, it's like, especially in Zen, Vipassana, and just Buddhist practice in general, is one, as a teacher, how do you make space for folk who are coming in with this hurt, with this negative impression of the world to relieve their suffering?

[62:30]

And two, how do you... live before you die for lack of a better description like the whole idea of dropping the suffering is like once this is gone once this is dead then they can live how do you do that as for yourself how i mean what i mean for your personal experience because you're never evolving being i mean hell this is like fifth edition i'm looking at here sure okay thank you miguel let me let me see if i i uh so the first question is how do we make it how how is it make it accessible for people with specific affinities to practice. Is that your question? Yeah. So the answer is, everyone of us has an affinity. The problem with dominant culture is they don't see their affinity. They assume their affinity is a non affinity, and yet they assert it all the time. And that's why they stay in power. So one, on one level, we all come with burns.

[63:32]

and things that need to heal. And so I think in general, that's what spiritual, I'll speak broadly. Spiritual practice, therapy is another modality. Volunteerism could be another modality. So these are the way in which how do each of us come to heal our healing or our wounds. So that's one. Two, I will say that And a great talk, not everyone can access probably, but from Dr. Margarita Loinus I heard recently at the BIPOC Voices, which is through Spirit Rock. And while she started in the Vipassana, now she's in the Vajarana tradition more. And she talks about as the three bodies of Buddha. So the Dharmakaya is the dharma or life, I'm making broad, Briefly, I'm trying to be brief here.

[64:34]

So it's the energy of life and so of nature, right, of life, the dharmakaya. Then the nirmanakaya is kind of like the personal sense of how the dharma comes together, right? The Buddha is a nirmanakaya. Ourselves are a nirmanakaya. And if we really believe that Buddha nature is in all of us and each of us are... or, you know, a Buddha happening, or I like to say, you know, Buddhas are arising like this, if we're appearing. So, which relates to Roshi Wendy's thing, right? Basically, anything that arises can be a Buddha. Are you aware of it as a Buddha? That's another way to understand Buddha nature. We all think, oh, I have to become aware of my Buddha nature, but it really is a Buddha. If we're willing to, relate to it as such? What is it that it's gonna teach us about life and about living?

[65:37]

And we do that through some bodhikaya, which is the bliss body, which is the energetic and the connection of how that coalesces into, you know, and the kind of pathways of it. So on a certain level, we actually practice to see the process, see. We keep on paying attention to the nirmanakaya, which has importance without a doubt, right? But there are three bodies of Buddha for a reason. And I should actually say, when you're not acknowledged, if your nirmanakaya is not acknowledged as a Buddha and is put down and is oppressed, then it's very hard to see that, oh, this is an expression of Buddha-ness. This is an expression of the Dharma, right? And this is what we practice.

[66:39]

We practice to see every phenomena as Buddha, right? Illness is Buddha. This wound is Buddha. And so what we need is other mnemonicayas that can reflect us and say, oh, Miguel, you know, I relate to that in a way that is authentic, not as a, you know, like, oh, I just, oh, yeah, I know, I know what you feel, you know, but someone who reflects you closer and closer, that's how we have more safety and trust. And so it's just as important for the nimaunakaya to reflect you, you know, so on one level, as a person of color, I'm reflecting a certain safety for you, right, as another similar nimaunakaya, but the closer and closer, the less you have to explain. Right. So and so then the bliss body becomes much easier to relate. That's my take on it. All right.

[67:39]

How's that? All right. Is that Benjamin? Is that you? It's hard to tell with the mask. Oh, hi. I'm glad you recognize me. I was going to take off my mask. It's so good to see your face. I'm in the account here in the building. I'm a non-resident. And I really did appreciate your talk. I was hoping I would see you actually here in person, but then I told you it's going to be Zoom. It's really frustrating for me. I'm going to say I really appreciated your talk, and I really appreciated the story you told about the water at Tassajara with Greg Fain. I hope you're still friends with him now. Good to know. He's my brother, for sure. Sure. Great person. The reason I... that story really perked up my eyes is because I'm angry. I'm angry at San Francisco Zen Center, and I'm here being recorded telling you about this right now.

[68:39]

That's why I wish it could have been an in-prison talk. I am a non-resident. I've never been a resident of San Francisco Zen Center. I think you probably have more experience being a resident than being a non-resident, but you might understand the perspective that I have as a non-resident. And my connection has been frequently as a volunteer to help San Francisco Zen Center be a public service venue for the public. And that has helped me because that was my initial introduction to San Francisco Zen Center and to a practice of meditation and to these many things. I'm angry because I feel like San Francisco Zen Center has tossed that public service under the bus. That we're in our third year of this pandemic and we have so many ways to keep people safe that it doesn't seem reasonable or logical to me that we can't serve the public. So that's where I am.

[69:41]

And I... reflected on many parts of your discussion of sangha and in-person relationships. And then the story about the anger, that's like, that hit me. It's like, I'm dealing with anger around this. And I think you also understand to some degree the importance. And so I don't want to say I hate San Francisco Zen Center. I think the people here have an understanding of service, but for some reason, It's not happening. I'm just wondering, you know, would you have been here in person? Could you have been, or would you... The Zoom thing to me seems like this consolation prize sort of connection that I lost patience with. And I think you might understand that because I have a friend

[70:43]

who is one of your students that I sat at Sashin with years ago, who tipped me off to another meditation venue in the Castro being open to the public. And it's like, oh, great. I'll go there when I can on Saturdays. So what's your question? My question is, how do I deal with this anger? It makes it difficult for me to be here. And do you think that, I mean, what can we do to make San Francisco Zen Center more open to the public? Do you think that's a reasonable request at this point in time? I mean, at the beginning of your talk, you talked about how much it is... the trouble and the crisis that society, that everybody is going through and how much you enjoyed the retreat that you were at and how the meditation, how much that helped you.

[71:50]

Everybody is dealing with that. And San Francisco Zen Center can be a vehicle for that kind of assistance too. Yeah. So, so first Benjamin, I would say that I don't know all the, I think you're talking about like, Can it be more open to the public? Is that the specificity of your saying? Okay. Yes. Okay. So I will say actually that I was asked if I was going to be in person. It's because I'm up here doing some work that I couldn't be in person. And I'm personally happy that I was able to be able to join by Zoom. Okay. So that's one. Two is that, do you know the LGBTQIA? two plus retreat, I co-led. Now one year that I was asked, the two years, 2019, when I was asked to co-lead was at the last minute because the other co-leader got a cult.

[72:51]

And because they know that how sensitive, especially to immune compromise, the LGBTQI two plus community can be that they, would not come, even though they had been a teacher for many, many years of it. And in fact, I think Belit might have started the group. So they moved back for that. I'm trying to use more ability. So they moved back because of that. At the retreat, there was an option as a teacher for me to take off my mask whenever I However, my co-teacher has parents that they will go back to who had cancer, who was really, really sick. So they said, you can do it, but I'm not going to. And I myself kept saying mass as a support for them. So I don't know the specificity, and I hear what you're saying certainly, Benjamin.

[73:58]

And so I don't know what it is at City Center. You know, I know that, I think that can be different ways. I don't know the specificity, and I can hear that you want access, and I can hear, and I see you there, so you must have some access. I was curious myself if, and I meant to ask Ryan, if the public could come for Dharma Talks now, you know, and I don't know. So I think it's all, you know, this is like unknown territory for so many of us. And I know that now that I'm a teacher and is in charge of a group that sometimes I have to think about the whole group and not just the individual. So I think you're expressing yourself is one way of working it out. I think I would, you know, the hard thing. I think the hard part about San Francisco Zen Center, and it's very hard to talk to people who make decision for the whole, and that will be carried out, because you can talk to an individual and they could agree with you, but they have no power, or they have power, but they won't use it, or they have power, but it's limited, or people...

[75:21]

agree with each other on the side or even in meetings and then later they all do their own thing. So, you know, like it's really hard when there's no central sense of what is going to happen. And so it's hard to interact with an organization in which, you know, you have no sense of accountability or responsibility and that actions will be taken and follow through or are limited. And that's very limited. So I can share with you in that frustration on this issue. I don't know the specificity. And so I, yeah. Thank you for making the effort. And I will say, you know, I mean, the other thing to think about is that, you know, when I practice in Japan and Vietnam and Thailand, we did close the door in Japan at 9 at night. We opened it at 3. But, and... In most of Asia, the temple doors are never locked.

[76:21]

We closed the door, but we didn't lock it. So, but Anne, you know, I think it's about who we, there's a lot of issues about the door at Zen Center throughout the year. So I don't know all the answers, Benjamin. I can share your frustration and I can see a lot of layers. And I'm going to move on because of the time. I do want to get to Shirley. And I know I'm noticing the time, Brian, but I just really I think their hand went up actually a lot earlier. So I want to make sure. All right, Shirley. Thank you, Benjamin. Hi, thank you so much for the talk. There was so much that I wanted to cover, and I'm so glad like that the other Sangha members were talking because the burn mark thing really I guess it describes how I feel. Earlier, when you were talking about people of color, like I'm Asian and I'm a woman.

[77:26]

And it's funny because I don't like to show my face on Zoom because I actually don't want people to identify, oh, she's Asian, she's a woman. And then I go into some category. And this has been something that I've felt ever since I was a very little girl, because my parents were immigrants, that you get put in a box and then whatever options there are in life, you don't get those because people will tell you what you can have. So it's like you see the market and you see everything you want to look, but you can't because they pull you away and they say you're in this section. And so... I guess I've spent my whole life like really like even my last name being Lowe, L-O-W-E, I would be very happy sending out resumes before because I think, oh, good, they can't tell whether I'm Asian or not. And the interesting thing is that now I'm 50 years old.

[78:27]

I'm going to be doing a career change and going into the tech track and all the things that it. The part of my life that it's coming to now is that I've resisted for so long that I wouldn't want to go into the people of color groups because often I would find or I would make up in my head, oh, those people of color groups are going to be angry. Then they're going to talk about the power establishment. I don't want to talk about that. I just want to get whatever I'm here to get. So I don't want to fit anywhere. And what I'm finding with tech is that it's so vast and it's so big that all the frameworks and little bridges and things that I made up in my mind to bypass all these kind of barriers and obstacles and things that I saw around me. Tech has the industry. They've already like finished the toys. They finished that bridge. They put them in separate rooms.

[79:28]

So it's amazing. And then finding this place, you know, like with like rediscovering Zen Center it's almost like it's like I've been going on my own for so long that to finally find communities where I actually feel like I fit without having to cut myself up it's amazing and it is it's you know like I don't know. I guess maybe you could, I don't know if you could speak to something about that part of the journey when things shift, you know, it's beautiful. And it's, I just realized like, it's just tiring at the same time. Like I realized like how tired I am, you know? Thank you.

[80:30]

Yeah. I'm very grateful for Buddhism. I'm very grateful for Zen. Thank you. I'm so glad you found a place of refuge or places of refuge, it sounds like. I think this is the thing about differentiation is that, you know, it's happening anyways. So for each of us, it's a journey, certainly. about when do we take it on and when do we not. And I will myself say that when one has to defend a differentiation, like, you know, in general, differentiation doesn't have to be a bad thing or an oppressive thing. The problem is when it becomes oppressive, right? And

[81:32]

And especially when it's oppressive, actually quite consciously, however as structures usually very consciously, unconsciously perhaps as individual. And at the same time, I think this is why practice is so useful, is that we keep waking up to where we did not see. Buddha-ness, when there was always Buddha-ness. The differentiation that is Buddha, right? And part of what is harming in the world is that we say, well, that's Buddha, but that's not Buddha. You're Buddha if you're like this. And so how we respond, when we keep being told you're not Buddha, and this is what Buddha is and you don't, look like this at all or behave this way or you know or the way you behave is considered not Buddha then that's really hard then and I think there is that it takes a lot of energy to defend and say I'm Buddha too because I personally think that each of us know that we're Buddha and that in fact we're practicing to become more and more confident that we are Buddha

[82:56]

And then the harder part, of course, is to be confident that you're a Buddha too, because especially the you that have been keep telling me I'm not Buddha or not just telling me, but you have the power to make my life a hell as not Buddha, right? Or what you think is not Buddha. Now, the key is how do we go beyond just surviving to thriving? And I think You know, I have been doing a lot of writing, so I will say that this is what I come to, or here's my thing for today, see if this is useful. I think in the area of differentiation about race, I might just use that and you can say clearness, you can say other oppressions. And I do say oppression on purpose, because it's not just about any differentiation. But suffering comes when there's power involved.

[83:59]

Otherwise it's just, this is different from this. There's no problem here. When there's power to say this different is worse than this different, then that's where the suffering happens. And so I think there's different practices And of course, different practices varies in different contexts. So take those broadly. And one thing I've come to, or I'm holding these days, is that the response of, so we can't deny the location. We can't deny that oppression systems are happening. We can't. And in fact, to deny it is delusion and therefore perpetuate more harm and harming in the world. So it actually is about knowing your location and understanding all the responsibility and accountability of that position, right? And so it's one thing on an individual level to assert oneself and then to understand that because of

[85:08]

if I'm in a position of power, I don't have to assert that. It's an assumption that I don't have to. That's called privilege and entitlement. And so I think that the practices are different. Whereas in a down power position, our practice is to heal. How is it that we need to really assert ourself? as Buddha in a way that's not dependent upon outside conditions. So on one level, we say that we practice so that we find the groundedness, we find, I know that I'm Buddha, no matter what the outside condition says. So that's at one level, certainly. And so the other practice is to say, where is it, right? And people know about the matrix of domination. So in the matrix of domination, in the race matrix, certainly I'm in the down power position, but in the ability matrix, I'm in the up power position. So when I'm aware of that in that way, then my responsibility changes, right?

[86:12]

So my responsibility in the up power position is therefore to not heal myself, because I already have... unconsciously the wholeness of my position doesn't mean that I don't suffer because of racism, excuse me, ability, because I have up power, mind you. Because I deny my humanity, or as long as I deny my humanity that I have power, that's part of your humanity and up power, that you have power. And to say, oh, no, no, no. I can't do anything about this, you know, is to actually to live in delusion and to not be responsible that the healing that you need to create is a structural healing. So it's a very different thing. And so because we, we, we keep shifting our identity and therefore our, whether when that band down power or the up power position. And by the way, we're not going for equal. There's no equal as long as there's oppression,

[87:16]

Systemic oppression, none. And to think that it's just interpersonal, you and I will be equal when the system makes us not equal, that's a delusion. I'm really sorry, but that's a delusion, right? And so when you inhabit the up power, whether you want to or not, whether you think it's really true or not, structurally it is true, right? Then, Your responsibility is how to change the structure. If you're in the down power position, I think it's what we need to do is most is to heal our personalness of it and then make it available to everyone. So I don't know if that answered your question. And I'm well aware that it's way past time. All right. Thank you so much for that difference distinguishing between the personal and systemic. All right, Ryan.

[88:19]

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your time. And everyone, we already said hello, but anyone who wants to can unmute and say goodbye. Thank you. Thank you, everybody. Bye. Thank you so much. Thank you, Brian. Great to see you. Thank you. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye, everybody. Bye. Bye. Bye. Muchas gracias. Hey, Vicky, stay on. Sorry, I got your email just before I came on. No, it's okay. I'll call you in a little while. Okay. All right. Okay. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. See you. Bye-bye. Thank you. Bye. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Alice. Okay. Bye-bye.

[89:27]

Thank you so much.

[89:28]

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