This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfcc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good morning and good morning to those of you online. weeks ago at the central abbot of Zen Center gave a talk and in his talk he recounted an exchange he had with Suzuki Roshi and I've heard him say that two or three times that exchange and each time I've been struck by how significant that exchange seems to have been for Ed.

[01:07]

For those of you who don't know the exchange, here it is in brief. Ed tells it much better. He was a new student. He'd just come to Tassajara, the famous Zen monastery, and he was going to be able to study with the famous Zen teacher, Suzuki Roshi. And it was bath time, so he knew he had heard there was a hot springs bath, beautiful place, and you got to bathe in it. So he went to the bathhouse, and when he went in, you take a quick cleansing bath before you get in the hot tub, which everybody shares. So when he went in to take his cleansing bath, Suzuki Roshi was there naked. So he said, well, obviously, the great Zen teacher is naked.

[02:13]

That's the thing to do. So he started to take his clothes off. By the time he had his clothes off, Suzuki Roshi had put his clothes back on. And it struck him. Oh, I just... elbowed out the great Zen teacher out of the bath so I could use it. And before he could say or do anything, Suzuki Roshi started to walk away. And then he paused, Suzuki Roshi paused, and he said, don't worry. Last time I heard Ed talking about that story, recounting that story, I thought, oh, and that's when you fell in love with Suki Roshi. That's when you felt deeply, this is someone I can trust.

[03:23]

Even when I totally screw up, They want to make sure, they want to reassure me that that's okay. They're still, even when I have pushed them aside from having a bath, they still have the capacity to be considerate. of how it is for me. And in thinking about that story, I was thinking, what makes a story significant for us? Of all the things that happen in our lives, most of them we've forgotten.

[04:29]

And then there's ones that recur for us or we rethink them or we reflect on them because they have a certain kind of significance. There is a phrase in Zen, it's called, A turning phrase or a turning experience. Sometimes the experience turns you. Sometimes you turn the experience. Seems like Suzuki Roshi saying, don't worry. Turn something in at. Another reflection I had was that without Ed's humanness, without his flash of, oh no, look what I've just done.

[05:54]

I've just elbowed the great Zen teacher that I've come here to study with, whose book I've read and I feel a deep connection. just elbowed him out of the baths. That moment of whatever it is, whatever that oh no is, shame, fear, will I be rebuked later? Am I a worthy person to be here? And then how the simple phrase, don't worry, was a wonderful antidote to his own inner world, what was arising for him. It turned something in him.

[07:00]

And it's a curious notion because what it's saying is that our very humanness, the very way we respond to a situation enhances its capacity to turn us. And then if we think about it a little bit longer, well, sometimes it enhances its capacity to turn us. Sometimes we're just so engrossed in how it is for us. That's the whole story. It's almost like a reinforcement of our narrative. So brings up the question, is there a way in which We can make ourselves available to be turned.

[08:12]

I remember at Zen Hospice, when it was across the street, there was someone who was dying, and her brother was in Texas, and they hadn't spoken for 17 years. And the brother was coming from Texas, to see his sister before she died. And we were thinking, oh, how shall we mediate this exchange? Should we talk to him first? Should we coach her on how to address him? And he came in the door. And we all stopped breathing. And he walked straight over to her bed and gave her a big hug. And the moment, the occasion, the circumstances turned 17 years of not speaking and just allowed it to disappear.

[09:31]

Sometimes the moment turns us. Can we facilitate that? Someone earlier this week asked me about ritual. Anything that I would recommend they read. And what came to mind was a Japanese phrase, kanodoko, which usually kanodoko. Is it not loud enough, Chuck? No. Could you turn it up a little bit? Oh, yeah? Yeah. How's that?

[10:42]

Really? Oh. All these years and I didn't know that. Okay. So if you can't hear, just put your hand up. I said to them, in response to their inquiry about ritual, I said, explore this phrase. Tanodoko. One translation of it is mystical resonance or communication. I think of it as when we touch the most important thing, When we feel the most important thing, when we engage the most important thing, something is turned.

[11:49]

Something connects. Some lesson is learned. But it's an experiential process. It's not, oh, and then I've just figured out something. No, it's something more immediate. Something touches our hearts. Something... Something, some way of being, some sensibility has a potency in that moment. Whether it's someone saying, don't worry. someone coming the whole way from Texas to meet a sibling they haven't spoken to for that many 17 years, or whether it's something that arises as the fruits of our practice.

[13:06]

You know, we're complex creatures. There's layers of being within us. I sometimes feel like the reason Zazen is so utterly obvious and at the same time so utterly mysterious is that we're always being exactly who we are. And that's complex. Zazen, Zen practice, is just a very straightforward proposition. Do what you're doing. Be what you already are. What is there to understand in that? What is there to figure out? And yet, we spend a lifetime discovering, as Dong Shan said,

[14:15]

appropriate response. Appropriate response is not something we figure out or that we read in a book and now we're determined that that's how we're going to behave. Not to say that what we read in the book, what we heard in the talk, what Suzuki Roshi paused and said to us before he left the Bath Heights. Not to say those canternas, yes they can. But in some ways, their power comes from their kanodoko, their capacity to connect deeply, is an interplay. Something in us is available and the moment becomes potent.

[15:33]

So this practice period, I've been teaching a class on the Eightfold Path, the Noble Eightfold Path. a very basic teaching in Buddhism. You could say that the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path are the two most basic teachings in early Buddhism. And it's interesting because in the Eightfold Path, the common translation is, you know, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood. right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration. But the word right, the translation of the word samma, just as right, it misses something, you know, because in our language, if there's a right, there's a wrong, you know?

[16:40]

There's an intrinsic duality. I reflect on that story about Ed being so moved by Suzuki Roshi's comment, I think of it as Suzuki Roshi indirectly saying to Ed, it's not about right and wrong. when I was training the Dohans at Tassahara, I said, you can't do anything wrong. It might not be the appropriate way to do it, the appropriate time to hit the bell or hit the Mikugyo, but you can't do anything wrong. Which is maybe a clumsy way to try to catch the flavor of what Suzuki Roshi did.

[17:45]

However, I would offer you that as a notion in relationship to yourself, in relationship to how you're assessing others' behavior. Each of us is complex. Each of us is multilayered. Our actions, our thoughts, our feelings, the way we give, some experience significance or don't. It's a product of many factors. It's trite to say right or wrong. So Samma, the Pali word that gets translated as right, you know, it can also be translated as to be,

[18:50]

in harmony with, or it can also be translated as appropriate response, appropriate view, appropriate intention. And to my mind, these early teachings and then This, honestly, to my mind, I often think of it as poetic disposition. There's something poetic in that exchange between Suzuki Roshi and Ed. There's something poetic flowing through our lives.

[19:51]

Appreciation, gratitude, savoring. If we start to think of awareness as more having those qualities, it helps us to sort of let go of the notion, I should be doing the right thing. I should be avoiding doing the wrong thing. Yes, there is an inquiry. How do we discover? How do we realize appropriate response? And I would say to you, it's the product of experiential learning. That really...

[21:03]

That's what Zen is about. I would say that's what practice is about, experiential learning. And if you think of any experiential learning you've engaged in, it's a learning by doing. you think of something like learning to drive, and you think of your initial intention based on your ideas, based on somebody else's ideas in instructing you, it's cerebral. Our minds are, this is how they take up a learning process. We think about it.

[22:06]

We conceptualize it. We figure something out. We create an intentionality. And then in the experiential learning, we engage in a way that goes beyond our thinking. And to my mind, this is the process of Zen practice. This is the process of realizing appropriate response. Something has a structure and then we engage it. Maybe we could even say we immerse in it. And I think learning to drive, learning to swim, learning how to play a musical instrument, there are many ways in which we engage in experiential learning.

[23:27]

And interestingly, we give over to the activity. And when we give over to it, it teaches us. Even on that mundane level, the Kano Doko is still functioning beyond our figuring out. me the clock out of your sleep. Thanks. So beyond, going beyond our thinking. And interestingly, in early Buddhism, in particular, in the Noble Eightfold Path,

[24:34]

both aspects of this experiential learning. One part of it says when you engage with attention with some aspect of human existence, when you engage it with intention and attention and experience it, it will to illuminate the complexity of being the person you are. And it will start to create the capacity to meet each moment as an opportunity to turn. And maybe this just reflects my own practice history, where my first in-depth training was in early Buddhism.

[25:58]

And then I came to Zen, even though I was very interested in Zen before I went to Theravadan Buddhism. That was my initial training. And one of the examples I'd like to... talk a little bit about is this third step. First step is right view. Second step is right intention. And they're intertwined. I think of Ed meeting Suzuki Roshi. In my mind, describing it as falling in love has a kind of accuracy to it. All these years, 40 years later, I can't remember a talk that Ed's given where he doesn't, one way or another, reference the teacher he fell in love with.

[27:14]

Those teachings are still guiding him, influencing him, still how he is conceiving practice. Still inspiring him. And I think it speaks of something within us all. it's a very fruitful exploration what what nurtures that affinity with practice how do i not get caught in should and should not be do relate to others you know and that that

[28:22]

right view that appropriate view that in harmony view stimulates that intentionality sometimes we feel it more than we formulate it conceptually Once there was someone who moved into this building and became a resident. And she said to me once, she said, you know, when I go to lectures, it doesn't make any sense to me. But when I just do zazen, it feels like the most important thing in the world. Is that okay? And I thought, Science is okay to me.

[29:23]

Each of us creates a path. Whether we intend to or not, we add something to the heritage, to the lineage of practice. We could say, in our experiential process, we actualize the Dharma, the practice, as we move along. So that intertwining of view and attention, and then the third step is right speech. If you think about it, wonderfully tangible you know what do we do a lot of the time we talk sometimes we're just talking to ourselves we're sitting in zazen with this free flowing narrative within us i would suggest you sometimes try on

[30:53]

just thinking of it as a free-flowing poem. I'll just recite an extemporaneous poem about being what I am right now. This thought, that thought. Some of them direct it to a person. Some of them just, what's happening? with no particular notion as to who's listening or who's not. And then when we talk to others, you know, if you think about it, it's fascinating. But when we talk to each other with the kind of charge of annoyance or negativity,

[31:54]

in one way or another. Usually that's much stickier. That tends to dwell with us much longer than when someone expresses gratitude or a compliment. But either way, it's tangible. And so in early Buddhism, there are five factors. There is a sutta, where Shakyamuni Buddha says, and here are the five factors of right speech. And the first one, and I don't know if these are in order of priority or would, I think of them as all pointing at a certain sensibility.

[33:01]

But the first one is, is it timely? Is this the time to say this? The second one is, is what I'm about to say accurate? Is it honest? Is it true? And then the third one is, sometimes, the different translations I've read of this factor are, is it skillful? Is it polite? And I would say, is it respectful? Am I respecting the sensibilities and the dignity of who I'm talking to? And maybe we could add, is it respectful of myself?

[34:14]

But so often, there's a residual charge that's... giving energy and motivation to speak out loud some way, in some way. As I was saying a few minutes ago, usually when it's negative, in a strange way, it has more impact. Maybe it's not so strange. None of us like to be hurt. So it has an impact. Yeah. And it's a great practice to pause as we're about to speak and check in. Is this the time? Is this being said with honesty? Is it respectful? And then the other two factors are, is it beneficial?

[35:20]

Even if it's all those things, Is it really going to help at this point in time? Is this going to facilitate some positive outcome, some harmony? Does it have the potential to be a turning word for ourselves or for others? And then the fifth one is close to the fourth one, which is beneficial. And then the fifth one is goodwill. Is this coming out of me with the notion of being of help, being of service? May this reassure others.

[36:23]

Why did Suzuki Roshi pause and turn back to Ed as he was walking away and say, don't worry. To my mind, just to reassure him. It's okay. We're not going to ask you to leave. It's okay. We all make mistakes. When you've been here a while, you'll know the appropriate behaviors in the different situations. And I think the very interesting thing is that as we engage these points, these pointers on right speech, as we engage them in the process, of experiential learning, they engage the complexity of our being.

[37:34]

As an experience, they evoke from our being the turning phrase. Sometimes one of the most important content of what we're seeing is our tone of voice. That we speak to something in the person we're speaking to. The tone of voice we're using has a kind of consideration, a respect. a generous okayness to it. And we feel it.

[38:41]

And maybe it's more significant for us than the content. This is okay because of this. Like we feel... disposition through their tone of voice. I remember once I was teaching a class inside a prison and I used the word prisoner and they all went to Oh! And I looked at them and said, that's a bad word here. We don't use that word. But it was a very lighthearted exchange.

[39:45]

They weren't rebuking me. They weren't finding fault. They weren't criticizing. They were just saying... We have a convention here, you know? That's how it is. Once I was going into a prison to teach a class, and the guard at the door said to me, you're wearing a white shirt. And I thought, yeah, take it off. Fortunately, I was wearing the sweater as well. I had to go into the prison without that white shirt. We live in a world where we construct norms. We live in a world that's tangible and palpable. How can that very same world...

[40:50]

an opportunity to turn this situation from a fixed set of ideas, a fixed orthodoxy to the fertile ground of awakening. And I would suggest to you that when we look at right speech, as it's laid out by the Noble Eightfold Path, as it's laid out by these qualities, that they invite the very same experience to be demonstrating what it is to be in the moment, to demonstrate the samma, the appropriate response, The way in which when the moment's engaged like this, something's revealed.

[41:57]

Something's turned from a fixed world to an energetic interplay that lets us see the kanodoko. of the moment. And of course, our conceptual mind, our mind that wants to figure it out, will be thwarted by the moment. The moment has energy. It has layers of interaction. It has the heritage of all the conditioning that created it.

[43:02]

And it's just itself. What is appropriate response? And early Buddhism says, well... We're not saying this is it, but we are saying, here's some pointers. If you go through these five characters, timely, true, respectful, beneficent, and benevolent, that they can ripen something. They can call forth a way of engaging. A way of experiencing. And it's interesting in the Eightfold Path. Right view and right intention come first.

[44:07]

It's like, it reminds me of the Zen notion. It's wisdom seeking wisdom. Something in us initiates the process. And as we engage the process, something's ripened. But it doesn't diminish the wisdom that's seeking wisdom. It's part of the genius of Suzuki Roshi's beginner's mind. The mind that's exploring and discovering and appreciating what's happening is always meeting the potential of each moment.

[45:21]

of each interaction. And it's not that our minds grasp it. It's that in giving over to it, something's revealed, something's realized. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma Talks are offered free of charge, and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, please visit sfzc.org and click Giving. May we fully enjoy the Dharma.

[46:12]

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