This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfcc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. So hello, welcome. When I was preparing for this talk, I had the thought of saying, hello, my name is Dana, and it's been 10 years since my last Dharma talk. And then I realized it sounded like, I don't know, like I was in AA or maybe in the confession booth or something. But yeah, it's been 10 years since I've been up here. That's a long time. I feel very brand new right now. A little raw in that. But we'll see. What happens? So why has it been 10 years? It's a...

[01:01]

combination of a few things but it's certainly not that I was addicted to Dharma talks and had to give them up cold turkey it's kind of actually the opposite I have a pretty I have a bad case of stage fright I guess is the easiest way to put it Getting up in front of people and talking is difficult for me, and I get very nervous. And I lose something, or I often feel like I lose something. Words that for weeks beforehand flowed from my mind and my mouth just crumble when I get up in front of a group of people. But then I was in the hallway a couple months ago, the tanto, David Zimmerman, came up to me, and he had those big David Zimmerman kind, compassionate eyes, you know, and he looked at me and he smiled gently, and he charmed me into saying yes to doing a Dharma talk.

[02:13]

Actually, that's not 100% true. I had been thinking about this whole thing with me and not giving talks, and... And I was curious, you know, what's going on? Why is this a problem? It really shouldn't be. I mean, yes, of course, everybody gets nervous before a talk, or many people do. It's common, but it still didn't sit right with me. And so I thought, well, I better say yes, because the only way I'm going to figure it out is to do it. is to put myself in the middle of it. And so that's another reason why I'm here. And another thing I wanted to bring up is something I've been working with and another reason why I said yes, which is I've been looking at how I keep myself safe and protected.

[03:17]

And I'm trying to challenge myself, not... to hide. So certainly being up here is not hiding. I feel very exposed right now. David told me it's a sea of love out here. So thank you all for that encouragement. So again, my name is Dana, and I know some of you know me, but a lot of you do. don't. I used to live here many years ago, but I haven't been around so much lately. So a couple people asked if I would give a way-seeking mind talk as my talk tonight. And I thought that I had some things I wanted to say, but maybe it would be good to start with that. And for those of you who are new and don't know what a way-seeking mind talk is, it's simply a talk of a Zen student gives looking at their life and trying to figure out what brought them to Zen practice.

[04:26]

What are the things that happened in their lives that brought them through the door and onto a cushion? So for me, the first time I sat Zazen was at Green Gulch Farm in the early 90s, and I had no idea what I was in for. I had come to Green Gulch from the Midwest as a guest student for five days. And I was, why was I there? You know, this, in some ways, this is the theme of my practice. It's very more instinctual and kind of comes from my gut and from my heart, not so much from my head. Not so much... something I've thought about or even remember making so much a conscious decision to do, but more of this kind of instinct that I followed. So how I got to Green Gulch was I had taken a walk there several months before with a friend, and there was something about Green Gulch.

[05:36]

There was something about the... There was a feeling. It was beautiful. I felt a deep affinity, and I wanted to be there, and I wanted to come back. So this was before the Internet, and I picked up a brochure, and I filled it out, and I applied, and they accepted me. And then several months later, there I was at Green Gulch, having actually no idea what meditation was. No idea what zazen was. I had picked up a book or two, so I kind of had an idea that it was important, but I had never done it. At that time, Green Gulch, they were retrofitting the zendo. This was in the early 90s. So they had put a big white tent in the middle of the green.

[06:38]

And that was the zendo. And I got up really early in the morning because I was nervous and I was anxious. And whenever I'm nervous and anxious, I get somewhere early. And I got into the zendo and I sat down. I was probably the first or second one in there. And I was going to sit zazen. And about 10 minutes into it, I was not doing very well. My legs had fallen asleep. Big waves of claustrophobia were coming up over me. And there was all this anxiety. I mean, it was just, my whole body was just percolating with it. It was really, really hard. I didn't know how I could not move. And I had no idea how long I'd been sitting there. And I had no idea what time it was and what was I doing there. And somehow I hung on and the bell rang. And I stood up, and I noticed some people were leaving.

[07:41]

It's the classic thing that people leave for kinhin, but I didn't know that at the time. I was so new, and I thought, I can leave. So I followed them out, and I got outside, and then I didn't know what to do. And I turned around, and I looked, and I remember... To this day, it was just that color, that deep blue when the sun's just about to come up but hasn't yet, and the white tent, and that golden rectangle of the door. And I knew that no matter how hard it was in the Zendo, it was harder not to be in the Zendo. Something told me this. Something told me to stop avoiding pain, stop avoiding discomfort, and go... figure this out so I went back of course I was a guest student and the guest student manager was a real this is a person that kind of takes care of guest students and he was a wonderful man by the name of Jordan Thorne so Jordan Thorne introduced me to Zaza and for those of you who don't know we're going to be celebrating Jordan's life on Sunday because he died a couple months ago in his funerals this Sunday

[09:05]

He was quite the amazing teacher for me in many ways. He was very abominable and he loved life. But when he talked about the Dharma, I could always feel him, I could feel the strength of that in him too. So he had these two ways of being that I found very delightful and inspiring. So somehow I managed to make it through the five days. I really loved my time at Green Gulch. I loved being in the kitchen. Ed Brown gave the Dharma talk, and he was funny and inspiring. And I went back to my life in the Midwest, ready to explore Zen practice. And I did. I was living in the countryside with my husband. And... we found a Unitarian minister who wasn't that far away, and he had a Zazen group.

[10:10]

His name is James Ford. Some of you might know him. So I would go once a week and sit with his group, and that's where I was introduced to koans. He comes from a koan study lineage of Zen. And not the kind of koan where it's a teacher-student, one-on-one, more the group discussion. And it was there that I... discovered and fell in love with koans. Eventually, I moved out to San Francisco. My husband and I had no jobs, nowhere to live, but we packed everything up in a truck and we moved out here. And we ended up in an apartment not far from Zen Center. So almost immediately, I started sitting here in the mornings. By then, I had started to kind of work, find my Zazen body. I started to settle, and I could sit. I was sitting in a chair at the time.

[11:10]

Eventually I found the cushion and sat on the cushion. But every morning I would get up before work and walk down the hill and sit and then go to work. I worked the early shift at Whole Foods Market. I went over on... Frank was the only one in the city at the time, so it was super busy. It was this kind of intense job. I was a checker. But I loved my mornings at Zen Center. And then that led to more time at Zen Center, coming in the evenings and taking classes and studying with Paul Haller and getting a rakasu, and then eventually going to Tassajara for a couple of practice periods. By now it's the late 90s, and... after my second practice period at Tassajara again with Norman Fisher, and he was studying the Blue Cliff Record at the time. So both those practice periods were also very much about koans. By the end of the second practice period, my marriage wasn't doing so well, and so I moved into Zen Center.

[12:18]

Eventually, I had a tough time where I had a very... difficult surgery, and my father died, and my husband and I divorced. But through it all, I was supported by my time here at Zen Center. I love my life here at Zen Center. I did all the things that you guys are doing. I worked in the front office, and I worked in the kitchen, and I was Abbott's assistant, and director's assistant, and I was director for a while, and Eno, and Tenzo, and secretary. So I really devoted my life to Zen Center. And things are going okay, but then right around when I was starting to turn 50, I had this question, and the question was, do I want to grow old at Zen Center?

[13:20]

And I was sad, And the answer turned out to be no. I don't want to grow old at Zen Center. And that was a hard thing to hear because I felt so devoted to Zen Center and to the practice. And I tried to ignore the no, but there it was. It kept coming back. And so I knew I had to leave. And so I did. Again, it was kind of like moving out to San Francisco. I had no plan. I'd been living within Zen Center for, by that time, 13 years, 13, 14 years. But I knew I just had to take the leap. So that's what I did. And I landed in the East Bay. And when I look back on it now, it wasn't just the no to growing old at Zen Center, though that was there.

[14:24]

But it was also... I really appreciated my practice at Zen Center. I think it grew me very deep. And at Zen Center, everything is pointed towards practice. Everything you do here is... Everything we do here brings us to practice. And my question was, does that... That's great for us, but what about people who don't live here? Does this practice work out there? You know, Zen Center is a bit of a hothouse. How does it work in the wider world? So both personally, I was interested in that. How would my practice be in the wider world? Would I be able to find it? And also, as a larger question, that was there for me. You know, does it work out there? You know, when there isn't the sound of the Han, when there isn't a tanking pad, when there isn't a practice committee, you know, what gets, you know, when the sound of the bell rings, why do you put on your robes and go to the Zendo?

[15:34]

What makes me do that? What makes me say yes to that? And so I think of it as going from the hothouse to the wider field. And that was five years ago, and I think it was a good thing to do for me because I did find practice. I did find my practice out in the world. I was really kind of surprised. I didn't look for it. I just kind of waited to see if it would appear. I didn't... give myself a strict schedule or try to manufacture anything. I just kind of waited to see. And sure enough, sitting every morning, sitting alone is hard, but that became a part of my life. I had this wonderful opportunity. I was invited to help a small sitting group in Richmond, and some of them are here.

[16:40]

So I lead a sitting group, and that helped my practice quite a bit. But just in all different ways. I don't know if I want to tell this story because it's a little difficult maybe, but I'll say it anyways. Where I live, I live in Oakland now, and it's a very kind of overgrown place. grown piece of property. There's a lot of foliage and we have a lot of fruit trees. We have figs and plums and apples and apricots and lemons and limes. And that's all really beautiful and wonderful, but it also attracts critters, right? It attracts rats. And my landlady had put out one of those electronic... rat catchers that when the critter goes in, it's quickly taken care of, and there's this kind of zap.

[17:44]

And I remember one morning I woke up, and I heard the zap. It just went zzzz, and I knew that the trap had caught a rat. And immediately out of my mouth, I started to chant the Emejuku Kanungyo. I didn't even think about it. It was just in through the whole process. And I got up and went out, and... and took care of them or put them in a bag and took them out. Luckily, it was garbage day. But I was really struck by how immediately that chant had filled my mouth. So I'm back at Zen Center. I don't live here anymore, but I work here full time as Zen Center's communications manager. I work with a really great crew, headed up by Michael McCord. And Kodo's there, and Siobhan is there, and Wendy is there, and Joshin has started to hang out with us.

[18:49]

And sometimes John comes down. And I really love this relationship with Zen Center because I feel like the practice, being inside, And devoting your life to practice by being a resident here is a very inward-facing way to be. And yet, in order for the world to find out about Zen Center, there needs to be outward-facing stuff. There needs to be communication. So as someone who used to live here, and as someone who loves Zen Center, I feel like I deeply understand Zen Center. And I also understand what it means to be out in the world. So I feel like I'm right in the middle and I'm kind of a translator and I run the social media and I help Joshin and I make posters and flyers and send emails and try to let people know that they can come to Zen Center and they can come to practice and they can become members or they can, all the things that they can do to

[19:59]

Support Zen Center and be supported by Zen Center. It's a great job, and I'm really happy that I'm doing it, and I'm really happy to be back in this way. That went fast. So I'm probably not going to be able to get to everything I wanted to talk about. So one of the things I think about is what is it that, or one of the things I thought about, one of the things I wanted to talk about tonight was what are the things that have helped me practice wherever I am, whether I'm here or there or anywhere? And the short answer, since I'm in social media, I can say this, the TDLR, too long didn't read, answer is sitting, meditation, zazen, a dedicated zazen practice, and then curiosity.

[21:11]

And zazen, I mean, there's probably a thousand reasons why. There's probably an infinite number of reasons why the number one is zazen. But I was thinking about my vow to not be so self-protected and to be more available. And I was thinking that's what zazen is. It's such a radical way to be a person, to sit alone. And I use the word radical. I mean, that word can get overused, but I actually mean it truly. I mean, as a human being, we're kind of built, we're made to be moving. And our brains and our very way of being is self-protected, right? You know, we're always kind of scanning out there, looking for the danger so that we cannot die.

[22:18]

or we can plan ahead to avoid the problem. We're really, really good at that. That's part of the reason why human beings have evolved and thrived as we have. But when you sit, you cross your legs, and you can't run, and you can't move easily. And your chest is open and available, and your back is open and available. And I know for some people, to have their backs... to an empty room or to a door is actually quite anxiety-provoking because you're so vulnerable. But there we sit in this vulnerability and in this availability, and nothing in our regular life asks us to do that. And nothing in our regular lives or in our moving around and getting stuff done and being a human being asks us to sit completely still. and to sink into the awareness of that stillness.

[23:21]

And it's my experience that doing that, now this is coming from somebody who had a really hard time, remember? The first time I sat, I could barely do it. But over the years, doing sashins, doing practice periods, I began to discover that in that stillness, something else can be experienced. something beyond my preoccupation with my life, with myself, with my own survival, with how I'm doing or not doing and all the things. Zazen, for me, quiets that down and leaves space for something I can't quite name to come up. So it's very important And again, for me, daily practice is very important. It's a radical thing to do.

[24:24]

And then curiosity is the second thing. And the reason for me that curiosity is important is it creates connection. When you're curious about something, you're... You're leaning into it. You're having a relationship with a person or a situation or with yourself or the world. So I think curiosity, always asking what's going on and looking a little bit deeper is very important. I wrote down here that quote from E.M. Forrester, only connect. Only connect. only connect. So I've studied with Paul, so of course I have a poem to read. So the poem's written by Denise Levertov.

[25:39]

I think she's passed. She's no longer with us, but she lived in the Pacific Northwest. I think she lived in the Seattle area. So the imagery on this poem is reminiscent of that, but I also believe it can apply anywhere, anytime. And it's called Witness. Sometimes the mountain is hidden for me in veils of cloud. And sometimes I'm hidden from the mountain in veils of inattention, apathy, fatigue, when I forget or refuse to go down to the shore or a few yards up the road on a clear day to reconnect, to reconfirm that witnessing presence. Sometimes the mountain is hidden from me in veils of cloud, Sometimes I'm hidden from the mountain in veils of inattention, apathy, fatigue. When I forget or refuse to go down to the shore or a few yards up the road on a clear day to reconfirm that witnessing presence.

[26:52]

So I was thinking about practice and zazen and curiosity, and I thought that poem describes that. kind of approaches it from when it doesn't seem to be working for you. I liked how it highlights how sometimes our practice can seem inaccessible, like it's hiding from us. And of course, I use the word practice here. This poem is so loosely written, it could, The mountain could be anything that's tugging at your heart, and that way the poem is kind of like a koan. But for me, I thought of my practice when I read it. So, yes, practice, or it could be love, it could be connection, or it could be some sense of the sacred.

[28:00]

But sometimes it's not... that the mountain is hiding from us, but simply that we're not looking, or we're forgetting or we're refusing to go, forgetting or saying no or not today or later on, forgetting or refusing to get closer, to be in touch, to be intimate, to be curious. So what's going on and what is happening when that's happening? Can we even notice when we're refusing? That's what I like about this poem. It kind of surfaces that unconscious decision we sometimes make, that little whisper, not today, not now, too busy. And I also liked the line about going up the road.

[29:10]

And I realized that I've been to City Center, Tassajara, Green Gulch, even where I live in Oakland, there's always a road to go up. So what happens when you wander to the top of the road? So we walk up the road, or maybe we sit down on our cushion, and we see the mountain. And what is the mountain? Again, you tell me. It's your koan too. It could be your resistance. It could be the core of your practice. It could be the fire that burns within or burns you up. Does it warm us? Does it fuel us? Does it destroy us? Only you can know the answer. It's your koan. that witnessing presence. Can we bear to be seen by it? I had a few more things, but actually, my talk feels done.

[30:27]

It's kind of scary to say that. because I prepared something and I'm supposed to finish. But it feels done, and I want to trust that. I want to trust that it feels done. I don't know. I mean, do we still do questions on Wednesdays? Oh, okay. Thanks, David. Any questions? Oh, I forgot to mention my... Thank you. So one of the things I did when I left Zen Center is I wrote. I wrote about practice in kind of a sneaky way. I was writing about food for a food blog, and every Sunday I wrote...

[31:34]

a column called The Weekend Meditation, and it was about how to find appreciation and attention and beauty in your everyday life. And that was kind of my sneaky way of talking about practice. I would occasionally encourage people to meditate, but it wasn't that kind of website, so I had to be kind of careful. But I did that for six years, once a week, 50 weeks a year. So it ended up being well over 300 columns. And somehow, yeah, thank you, Paul, finding my voice. Somehow when I sat down to write, every week something would come. Something would come to me. And after a while, I did it long enough I could trust it. And I just had to be quiet and wait, and something would come. And then that led to a book called Finding Yourself in the Kitchen, which the bookstore has.

[32:35]

And it's just more of the same, but a little bit broader. And it was published by Rodale Press a couple of years ago. And then this introvert, this person who finds it very hard to get up in front of people, had to go and promote her book. It was really hard for me to do, but I did it because it wasn't about me. It was about the book, and I wanted to give it the best I could. So I think that was... I enjoyed writing. I haven't written for a while since... probably since I started working full-time for Zen Center. So I'm hoping I can find a way to balance that and get back to writing again.

[33:37]

It's very, very hard to do. But when it's done, oh, that feels good. That feels right. And I also think, you know, when I was writing those columns... I really was thinking about how can I describe practice to people who never heard of Zen, have never sat in a Zendo, might even think it was weird to call something a Zendo and a Zafu. There's a bunch of people out there for whom that language or that sensibility, it just isn't accessible to them. So I wanted to share this sense of... appreciation and beauty and deeply being present for your life with people. And then I would sneak in. Well, you know, the best way to do that is to sit a little bit.

[34:39]

Hopefully some people have. Lucy, hello, hello. Okay. Yeah, I'm so much used to facing this way. It's very different to face this way. Okay, uh-oh. I always think about getting old. I'm at that age where that's kind of there. But I haven't figured it out yet. What about getting old? Oh, I don't know yet. I don't know. I would love to get old where I am. I'm very happy where I am. But I don't know if that's going to be possible.

[35:41]

Yeah. Yeah, I haven't figured that out. I probably should, you know, because I'm not getting any younger. And there's no little, like, magical place waiting for me. So... It's a koan. Everything's a koan these days. Thank you. Good question. I'll think more. How about you? Where are you getting old? That's it. to stop I don't know where to go and just hearing you up there talking with you about not knowing makes me feel so much more comfortable not knowing so thank you definitely stay with not knowing that's the curiosity and intimacy thing I was talking about if you can stay in that place and start to be a little more comfortable in it that's a good place to be I'll meet you there

[37:04]

Thank you for your talk. I appreciated the comment you made about the dead rat. It's something that's very interesting in my life. I usually have seen that guy in various aspects of my life, but it's very easy to become very cynical in that role, and I appreciate that you were able to do this chant, and I was just wondering How did you get there? How do you still remain curious in this space of daily duties and uncomfortable tasks? I think those are kind of two different things, daily duties and uncomfortable tasks. In daily duties, actually this was something I was going to talk about And then I decided not to. So in some ways, I'm kind of glad you asked.

[38:06]

And it's actually a teaching I've heard Paul give many times. And it's one that's always been very important to me. And that is when, you know, Paul, he's talked about when there's a good experience happening, when you're feeling pleasure or joy or contentment, to really let it register, to pause and really let it in. And I feel like this, I feel this is very important because a lot of, again, a lot of our lives, there's a lot of stress, there's a lot of survival mechanisms that are going on in the human mind and the human body is very, you know, it tilts towards the difficulty, you know, difficulty. The things are much stickier. So when the pleasurable things happen, it's really important to make sure that you're giving them a lot of attention and to really let them soak in.

[39:10]

So when I do everyday things, I always look for that, and it's always there. Sometimes it's quite simple. Sometimes it's just sunshine coming through a window. You know, and there's, you know, just to kind of stop and see it and let it in for a while and let it become a part of the magdala of who you are. And then if you do that enough, it just becomes a little bit easier because that's who you are. You're somebody who notices that the sun's coming through the window and it's quite beautiful. And that can be a part of your day. I also feel being out in nature, that that is also... helpful. So even in the city, just walking up the street and the bark, you know, the texture of the bark in the tree or the leaves kind of rustling in the wind a little bit. Just let that in. Difficult tasks? I'm not so sure.

[40:13]

Maybe a chant is a good thing. Maybe the is a good thing to have in your back. It worked for me. Or maybe you can find that ray of sunshine in the middle of the heart thing, too. Anyone else? No? Okay. I do have one more poem. It's really short. And I want to read it because it really helped me When I was preparing for this talk and I was experiencing my extreme anxiety and nervousness at doing this, it's so shocking. But I read this poem that a friend had offered and it's by that rascally Zen guy called EQ. And so it's very short and it goes, don't worry, please, please, how many times do I have to say it?

[41:16]

There is no way not to be who you are and where. So don't worry, please, please don't worry. How many times do I have to say it? There's no way not to be who you are and where. Thank you. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma talks are offered at no cost and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click giving. May we fully enjoy the Dharma.

[42:02]

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