This podcast is offered by San Francisco's Zen Center on the web at sfcc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good morning. My name is Robert, and I've been a resident here at Zen Center, a practicing resident for a little over 21 years.

[01:00]

I live right next door in Zen Center housing with my wife. And I want to talk to you today, talk with you today about practice and technology. I know a little bit about practice and basically nothing about technology. Maybe that qualifies me still to talk about it a little bit. My wife and I have this running joke. We were out hiking on Mount Tam maybe six or seven years ago.

[02:11]

And she was asking me about my Google settings, my Google mail settings. And it started to get increasingly technical. And so she was saying, but when you go there, do you do this? Do you do that? And we were walking along this beautiful trail looking over the Pacific Ocean. And all of a sudden, the words, I couldn't speak. The words started coming out all garbled. And I knew what I wanted to say, but I couldn't. I couldn't say it. And I was having a stroke on this hike in the middle of this beautiful setting. And so we... Anyways, we took me back into the hospital and I recovered and everything fairly quickly. But whenever... So here's the running joke.

[03:14]

Whenever she... That's the hiking joke, but it's not really a joke. Whenever Samantha asks me anything very technical, I say, don't do that. You're going to give me another stroke. So even words like somebody used the word API with me the other day. I think I should maybe know what you're talking about, but I don't have any idea. I really don't have any idea. It's kind of like maybe when people talk about, you know, particular forms of Zen practice and you just don't have, and you don't have the experience with it, you don't really have a reference point to think, well, what are they talking about? But for some reason, for years, I've been interested in

[04:18]

in practice and technology. I don't know why. So it leads me here to talk with you, to talk about it today with you. When I was president of Zen Center, maybe seven years ago or so, I was thinking eight years ago, I think by now, I was thinking, well, there must be a way that we could use technology to support people's practice. There must be a way. I mean, even more than just having a website and sending our podcasts, these Dharma talks, or even more engaging, even more supportive. So we came up with this idea. Are we okay, Marcus, in terms of the sound? Yeah, we're good now?

[05:21]

Okay. Yeah, right. So we came up with this idea of a fourth practice center, a practice center that was out there, not one of our physical practice centers, but a practice center that was out there in the cloud or something. I mean, this was kind of even before the cloud, but an idea that it was out there somewhere, you know, our fourth practice center. And this practice center would be a way for people who didn't live in residence, didn't live in practice in residence at our center to stay connected, to engage in some kind of practice, to get supported in their practice. And it remained this idea that nothing really happened with for

[06:21]

for quite a while. And more recently I engaged with this project in the last year or so. I engaged with this project and I talked a little bit about it a few months ago on this seat. But today I want to share my thoughts as they have developed even in the last six, eight, nine months and also the project as it's developed in the last you know, six to eight months. And hopefully this in some way connects to you and your practice and especially your practice in relationship with your technology. To some greater or lesser extent, all of us have been sold and probably, I think you could say, bought into this myth that technology is going to make our lives better, happier.

[07:44]

free from the drudgery of manual labor, free to have more time in our days, maybe more vacations. My reference point for this is like the third grade, the third or fourth grade, I used to love movie days. I mean, movie days at school were so great. They'd close the screen, the room would get dark, and somebody would set up the projector, and then the projector would play. And one of my most vivid memories from that is a movie that had animation in it, but I think it also had some speaking people. But it was a movie about the promise of this technological future. And I'm sure all the kids saw it. This would have been like 1965 or something like that, 66. And there was some kind of animation where the guy who had previously been maybe picking at stones,

[09:07]

and then eventually in a factory, was now just like sitting there with his feet up on the desk while the machines did all the work. Or then going out and having time with his family and free time. And I was this person who always wanted that kind of thing. I was like the artist in the class, and I was always doodling, and I was always trying to... My mind was always like... So this resonated with me. Oh, I actually won't have to work for a living. It'll just be like the machines, the technology will do the work. And then I'll be an artist, and I'll just be hanging around, more or less. And there was an image created in my mind at even that early age.

[10:15]

And we're still living, to a degree, we're still living with this myth as a culture. It's even expanded and grown. Technology will not only make our lives better, give us more free time, but it's going to help us be connected to the people we love, engaged with the things we want to be engaged with. It'll help us... think differently, whatever, you know, everything. It's like its promise has only really kind of increased. So how's that going for people? Seriously, that's a real question.

[11:18]

Any thoughts? How's that going? Is that working out for you? No? How so? Yes? I'm actually an art teacher, and I have to work at getting my students to turn all their devices off in class so that they'll actually make some art. That's right. That's just one small way that I experience that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, kids. These are actually college students, but they're still still there. They're kids. I mean, they're 19, 20, and they're all on their devices. I'm like, well, we're going to draw now. Put your devices down. Right. Yeah. Yeah, put your devices down. We're going to actually make something. Yeah. I went to France last summer and got on my bike and rode 160 miles in an area that I had never seen before in my life and I was never lost once until at one in the morning my phone finally ran out of batteries and I couldn't look at it to see where I was in my life.

[12:40]

Right. Yeah. Totally awesome. Right, you know. How did we get anywhere before our phones? How do we know where we were? That's how I navigate on uni. That's how I figure out where I'm going, what buses to take after working. And that's how I keep connected with my friends and family throughout the country. I look on my phone, look on my computer. My student loan payment is done online. cannot speak to those people in person ever again. On one hand, it does make, the technology has made some aspects easier and some aspects are, they're just new challenges, you know? It's like, how do you mindfully use it, I suppose? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Good point. Yes? There was a bumper sticker in the 60s and 70s that we all had.

[13:43]

I had one called Kill Your Television. I think that's what you're referring to maybe. I still feel that way. Yeah. I used to type on a typewriter a long time ago and use light out and those things. And now I talk into a headphone and it magically just converts it into text. And so I think it's a tremendous tool. I used to spend a lot of time in the library researching. Now I can just sit at a desk and type in a few words, and things get pulled up a lot more quickly. And that, in a lot of ways, levels playing fields, too. The fact that you don't need a huge library. You can just sit at your desk, and you have a huge library. So I think it's a very powerful tool that can be used efficiently. Yeah, yeah. The other day, I was sitting in my workspace, and there was an office office. a closed office next to me, but you can hear everything that goes on in there.

[14:45]

And I was trying to just not pay attention to what was going on in there and focus on what I was doing, and there was a woman in there who was talking to a career counselor, and she was having some kind of midlife life change. And this woman asked her, well, what about your life do you love? And she said, I love the Internet. And I was just like... And then it made more sense. Similarly, she says, you know, I'm an information person. I am dedicating my life to getting information about new health... issues and remedies to solve some of these major health issues we have around the world, and information is key, and sharing information is key, and has totally changed my effectiveness and the way I operate in the world. So yes, it's changed our lives in some ways better, for the better.

[15:53]

Anybody else? to use it correctly. And then I think a lot of people now just aren't choosing. They're just getting swept away with it. But you've got to make your life great if you choose to use it and then choose to walk away from it. Yeah. It seems kind of clear. Right. Right. Good point. Please. I think it's important to look at the historical side of technology. You know, you think of technology as pushing forth into the future, but the door you walked, through is technology to a caveman. You know what I mean? Like the clothes that you wear, that's technology. Technology is a tool created by man to further the goals of man. Yeah, you could say, well, technology is this rather kind of benign tool that's, you know, neutral and the burden is on

[16:58]

is on us, similar to what maybe you're saying, that we use it, do we use it for this or do we use it for that? And I think there's a lot of truth to that. And then it starts to get a little bit fuzzier as the technology becomes more and more powerful and we depend on it more and more, and it becomes more and more embedded in our lives. I think then there's some kind of like an ethical question there around it. It's not just so clear when it becomes the only way that we can kind of operate in the world. Yes.

[18:00]

I'm a high school teacher, and I taught high school before email, and now I teach high school in the era of email, and I just can't believe how much time I have to spend engaging with email. And I have had that thought, what did I used to do? What did we used to do before all of this email at school? And I found one of my old teaching journals, And it seems that I used to actually spend the time planning my classes and kind of like walking around and thinking about what I wanted to teach and talking to people. And it's kind of astounding how much of the day for all of us at the school is spent writing to each other across the campus. And then it starts, and then 20 people have to get involved. Yes, right. It's changed all the expectations around you as a teacher, that you're not over there, oh, she's over there preparing the class, but the expectation is that you're going to be, because you can be contacted, you should be able to be contacted and engaged with right now, and you should be responding right now, and that we should be having this, that that seems normal, the normal expectation now.

[19:22]

That's right. That's right. I don't know how many people I've had tell me in the last few years, well, I sent you that email, and you didn't get back to me, and it was like an hour later or something like that. The expectations have just changed so much. I think that technology has made it more challenging to be compassionate. How so? I think about, I work in the technology business, but my job is very focused on communication. And when you're emailing and receiving emails and sending emails, it's very tactical. You read something and then you respond to it. And sometimes I stop and I need to go down and speak with someone, talk to them, because there's a different relationship when you're speaking and reading someone.

[20:39]

Sometimes I've answered emails and then gone and spoken to the person and realized that what I said was probably not appropriate. Right? Yeah. Yeah. For that reason, about eight months ago, I had the idea and I started of signing all of my emails off with peace and love, no matter who I was sending it to. And I thought, well, what have I got to lose? Peace and love. And... I don't know what kind of effect it's having out there on people, but for me, it's having the effect of, okay, I'm saying peace and love here, and is whatever is above that actually reflecting in alignment with that?

[21:42]

You dirty, rotten, peace and love. So it's helped me, but maybe it's helped set a tone or helped other people understand that that's the context within which I'm... Yeah, so compassion, right. Yes, I totally understand what you're saying. Please, yes. I think that a lot of times when there's something that you find through technology that you... enjoy or fall in love with or sweat away with, the final consequence is just that it highlights the lack of that in reality in terms of its final emotional effect. And I feel that way about seeing an email that signs, peace of love, for example. Or, I mean, anything. There's so many different examples. Yes, I know. Yeah, that's good. I also think that when technology makes things more productive, Generally speaking, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

[22:48]

Yeah. Please, thank you for that comment. Well, being from Europe, I just think that the internet makes clear that there's a monopolization there, and a few big companies all situated here in California are ruling the world because they own all the data and they're also handing them over. So to me, it's also a de-democrinization process worldwide. Yeah, I can appreciate that. So in that sense, as we look deeper, it's not just this, oh, it's just like a a book or a hammer or any other kind of tool. There are deep questions about, as it starts to manifest and embed itself in our lives, as that.

[23:48]

Yes. Please. I'm thinking about signing up for the devil's advocate for that a little bit, about the redistribution of wealth. For example, my husband's from China. And although there are probably half or two-thirds of Chinese who still live in these very, very poor conditions, one-third of a billion people do not. That's money that's going to China. And you can say, well, that's at the cost of American jobs. And yes, it is. But it takes one-third of a billion people out of poverty. Amazing. To think of what's available to people around the world that would have never been available, right? A sense of connection and engagement with, even at its best, with the evolving ideas of the world.

[24:57]

Yeah, yeah. I know that there are other comments, but I'm going to have to kind of move on. So I'm sorry if we can't just like sit here and talk about this for a long time. I know we could and have a very rich conversation about it. But I did want to share a couple of other thoughts. You know, it's clear even from the comments, it's not so clear. It's not so, yeah. Is it good? Is it bad? Is it helping me in my life? Is it supporting me to fulfill my highest aspirations and my deepest intentions? Or is it just making me more anxious, more stressed? unable to connect with what's right in front of me, with people I care about and love as a human being?

[26:09]

These are questions that come up for me. So as I was thinking about this, trying to get a grip on how myself, as a practicing Zen person, what's my relationship to technology? How am I thinking about this? And in terms of this project that I'm working on, what kind of, what's possible? And am I just, on the one side, just trying to support people to create another, still another thing for them to do? Still another email for them to respond to? Still just another app to download?

[27:17]

Or is there something more that's possible? So I started thinking about this question in relationship to the precepts, the Buddhist precepts, which in Zen there are 10 of them. Actually, there are 16, but there are 10 kind of essential precepts. And these precepts are the moral and ethical framework that we live our lives by, that we engage with. the world with. For hundreds and hundreds of years, Buddhist practitioners have done this, used these precepts to kind of guide their actions as a framework for understanding just the kind of things that we're talking about. So I...

[28:19]

I'd like to share my thoughts, go through these ten precepts and just share my thoughts rather quickly with you on each one. So number one is don't kill. So my technology, if I was to practice in alignment with my technology and don't kill, I would want to make sure that my technology was not killing. Not killing. Ever. And especially not killing those open spaces in my life. Not killing my ability to meet you. Number two, don't take what is not given.

[29:26]

Don't steal. The technology in my life would need to support me. I would want the technology in my life to support me to know that my happiness was not a consequence of getting more stuff. It was not driving me to just be covetous of what other people have. It would support me to be less greedy, less self-centered, and more generous. Number three, don't misuse sexuality.

[30:32]

My technology would support me to have open, honest, respectful, loving, caring relationships. with everybody in my life. It would support me to treat people just as I would want to be treated. Number four, don't lie. My technology would support me to be honest at all times in my life, with myself and with others. It would encourage me to be truthful at all times about what I'm doing and why I'm doing it.

[31:43]

Five, don't intoxicate. My technology would support me not to indulge in my worst kind of habit patterns and addictions that numb my life and prevent me from actually relating to what's right here in front of me. it wouldn't be so compelling and addictive that I would have to be told even twice to put my phone down because we're going to draw now. Number six, don't slander. My technology would support me to live mindfully.

[32:50]

Speak carefully and with kindness about others. Number seven, don't praise self at the expense of others. So my technology... would drive me not to seek personal advantage over others, but rather would encourage me to appreciate and cooperate with others, to see others as different than me and the same as I am. My technology in this way would cultivate intimate, loving relationships based on generosity, our interconnection, our interdependence, and our love for each other.

[34:14]

As opposed to being in competition with each other. Eight, don't be possessive of anything. So my technology wouldn't show me how I can get more than others or get something better than what others have, but actually show me how I can share my life with others. How if I have a little bit more of this, I can share that with somebody who needs that. Nine, don't harbor ill will. My technology would encourage me not to express anger or hatred or harm others. It would help me be more compassionate, empathetic,

[35:23]

caring, and kind. And number 10, don't abuse Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. My technology would encourage me to be fully present in this moment. To wake up to things as they are, to see clearly to live my life for the benefit of everything, not just myself. So, I just recently went through a community design process whereby we invited a whole bunch of Sangha members just like you to take up these kind of questions and to think about, well, in the context of your life, what would support your highest aspirations, your deepest intention?

[36:46]

And interestingly, people were... Interested in engaging with technology at this kind of a level? What is my practice around that? How is that supporting me? Not supporting me just to get from here to there. but supporting me at an even deeper level. People were interested in that, number one. People were interested in, well, how can it help me stay connected to that which I really want to be connected to? Not to all these other things that I don't want to be connected to. So back to this choice question.

[37:58]

How can it support me to make a better choice to live my deepest intention through the choices I make about who I'm connected with? How can it help me deepen my practice, wherever it is? I just started yesterday. I'd like to deepen my practice still. What would that be like, and how would... My technologies support me to do that. And lastly, you know, I have challenges in the world. I'm a mother. I'm a father. I'm a teacher. I'm homeless. I'm aging. I'm rich. I'm poor. I have challenges. How is my... And how is technology going to participate in supporting my practice to meet the challenges of my life?

[39:05]

So these are the kind of questions that came up in this process. And then... We started talking about, and a few people in this room were there, actually, over the course of some time, not too long, but some time, we started talking about, well, what would do that? What kind of engagement with technology would start to do just that kind of thing? Help me deepen my practice. Help me live my practice in the world. Help me stay connected to people who I'm practicing with, my other Sangha members. And we came up with a nice, long, a decent list of eight fantastic things that this technology could do.

[40:10]

And then we did a little more work on that, and we came up with three that we thought were, well, if if somehow the technology could do that, I think that could maybe support my practice. And I wanted to share those three things with you right now. They're very quick. One is an idea, it's rather vague and ill-formed, but one is an idea that the Zendo, or the Buddha Hall, could be extended out into the world. Meaning both, like, what's happening right here and now could be extended out into the world and accessible by anybody in the world, but also that this general notion that, oh, there's people coming together with the intention, just like you all are, to practice...

[41:17]

or to water the seeds of practice in your own life, to find encouragement to wake up in your own life, that that kind of place that we have here could be extended in some way. So that somebody on the other side of the world could feel like they're walking into They're stepping into the kind of intentional space that we've all stepped into today. The second one we ended up calling, or the group that developed this ended up calling this face-to-face. And that's the idea that we could meet up with somebody, a teacher, a mentor, or a fellow practitioner, and actually relate to them face to face, person to person, individual, human being to human being, and talk about your practice.

[42:28]

Talk about what's going on. Talk about where you're confused. Talk about what's working, what's not working. Talk about how to take the next step. How that would happen, I don't know. But that seemed like a great idea to me. And the third one had to do with making it possible for people to find other people in the same way that we found each other here today and get together in small groups, get together in person with other people. Start sharing our lives together as practitioners. Be supported by others and support others in their practice.

[43:33]

That's something, and actually all three of these things are things that we're already doing here at Zen Center, but, you know, we're just 100, 200, whatever people. So lastly, I have to finish up here now, but I wanted to share a very quick little story with you. I started doing something with a group of people that came out of this design exercise the other day. We started sitting together. So about three months ago, I decided that I didn't know what the experience was like for people who don't live and practice and sit and everything in community. I didn't... I've been sitting in the community for 21 years. I don't really know what that's like. So I decided I'm going to stop going to the Zendo here and I'm going to sit at home and I'm going to start to feel and internalize what that experience is like.

[44:39]

And it's very interesting. It's not so easy. Not so easy to practice. So coming out of this experiment, a small group of us decided that we were going to commit to sitting every day and that we were going to log in on our computer to a Google Hangout where we could see each other, and one of us would ring a bell at the beginning, and one of us would ring a bell at the end. I thought, well, okay, that could be okay. It's definitely not going to be like... you know, real sitting or something like that together, you know, or, you know, real practice, but I'll do it with you, sure. So the first day we sat down and Oliver rang the bells and we all kind of got on and we were there and amazingly,

[45:46]

It was just like sitting here with all of you. It was just like it. And in fact, we checked in afterwards and one of the guys said, you know, it wasn't like sitting together halfway. It was like all the way. I was sitting with you guys. And that was a very powerful experience. It made me think about what's possible a little bit differently, actually have that experience. I had all the things come up for me. Oh, am I going to be late? Oh, is it going to be okay? What's it going to be like? Oh, they're there. I committed to being with these people. I'm supporting them. They're supporting me. All of those things, all of that was there. All of it. And now I can't wait. And then at the end of the second session, We said something to each other. We said, have a nice day.

[46:48]

And it was like the intimacy and effect of that on me was quite tangible and powerful. And I was surprised. I was really surprised. I just wanted to share that with you. Now I can't wait every day to sit down with my little group. My buddies. I don't even know some of these guys. And right now, I have such a positive feeling about them. They're really helping me. They're really helping me in my life. And I'm shocked by that. Anyways. You know, this is... this is what we're going to have to practice with for a while now. You know, these kinds of questions.

[47:53]

And it's not going to get easier. It's only going to get harder. And so it's up to us, people who have some kind of sense of... bringing some awareness to our lives, bringing some purposefulness, some intentionality, some waking up. It's up to us to kind of like help the world figure this out as opposed to just running around like little kids. So thank you for letting me talk about it. And thank you for being here today, and thank you for your practice. And I hope that you have a wonderful day, that you find your way no matter where you're going, and that you don't miss any buses, and you're able to find out what's happening at Zen Center.

[49:07]

via our website, and that your practice thrives and grows and deepens, and that you are happy and healthy and peaceful. So thank you very much. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma Talks are offered free of charge, and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, please visit sfcc.org and click Giving. May we all fully enjoy the Dharma.

[49:48]

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