To remember and accept, I vow to taste the truth of the Tathagata's words. On behalf of the women's group of Brooklyn Dance Center, I'd like to welcome Jogo Futsu-sensei and everyone here today. We've had various female teachers come as our guests from various traditions to share their practice and their understanding with us. We've been very fortunate over the last year and a half to have male support for the women's group activities. As most of you know, Jogo-sensei has been practicing at Zen Center of Los Angeles for a long time and is one of the Dharma Heirs of Maezumi Roshi. She's also lived a rich and varied life in the everyday world. A teacher of her maturity and directness is rarely met with in male or female form,

[01:03]

and I'm very grateful that she's here with all of us today. I want to, as well as thanking Fran, thank all of the women's group, which has enabled me to come up here to experience all of you. Thank you. You're wonderful. Thank you. We're slowly becoming good friends, which is really special for me. Since I'm here, I also want to express my appreciation for Suzuki Roshi.

[02:10]

This is the land of Suzuki Roshi. I knew him years ago, and while, of course, I didn't know him well, even so, the influence he had on my life was considerable. So I still view him as one of my teachers. I'm grateful, as I am to all of my teachers, particularly at this time, Maezumi Roshi. As people probably discovered last night, I'm a pretty informal and direct person. In a way, I always wonder, you know, what do people expect to get out of a talk like this? You know, what have I got that you don't? Of course, I don't have anything you don't have. There's nothing I know that you don't know. But I'll admit that to be really aware of this is maybe what practice is about.

[03:17]

I think if there's one thing we do share, whoever we are and even whether we practice or not, it's the desire for our life to be what we sense in our very bones it can be. It's a life of openness and compassion, a life that's effective, that serves ourselves, serves others. We all want this. In a sense, we can say in practicing we shouldn't want anything, but there's nothing wrong in wanting that. I think it's the very nature of being a human being to really want to settle into ourselves in such a way that we are at home with our life. Now, of course, we can't be anything but at home with our life.

[04:23]

So it's as though the truth of our life always is, and we constantly overlook it. So why? What are we doing? What are we doing sitting here, being here, practicing? What, what, what, is the question, see? And to clear up the confusion, to really have an intelligent, alive practice is what interests me. So I found that all of us, including myself, are engaged in making one major error. We refuse to meet our life as it is right here and right now. We all know the famous quotation from the Diamond Sutra, the mind of the past is ungraspable,

[05:25]

the mind of the future is ungraspable, and even more interesting, the mind of the present is ungraspable. Now, we've all heard that. But what, in very practical terms, does that mean in our life? It means that the only time we encounter ourselves, our life, anything, is right here, right now. Trite, perhaps, much overused words. But it's our refusal to do this that leads to the, shall we say, fundamental anxiety that rules the lives of most of us. In other words, instead of being our life just as it is, what do I mean by just as it is? I mean that right now, each one of us is as he or she is,

[06:30]

which means we might be upset, angry, happy, bored, indifferent. At this point in time, that's who we are. We're not something else. We are as we are. But the last thing we want to do is to be as we are. In order to experience this is-ness of our life, which, if there is any magic, is it. We have to give up all hope. And it sounds... It doesn't sound nice, does it, to give up all hope? But instead of being our life as it is, in one way or another, we're finding or trying to find ways to control the events of our life, to control the people in our life.

[07:34]

Now, not many of you here anymore hope that something like a great big car will do it for you. You've given up the Cadillacs. But we tend to take up something else. And we hope for peace or help or enlightenment. And we have just substituted one set of hopes for another. And already, instead of being here... Oh, I'll go in here where Joko's hiding. It's out there somewhere. She knows. I don't know. A student of mine who's left CCLA and gone back to his native country of Canada

[08:38]

because he felt this was a time when he had to face his fears and really experience his life there. He calls me that once a week. So, the other day he called and he said, Joko, I'm just about to go to work. He's on an afternoon shift. And he said, where I work, it's in a brewery up in the town there. And he said it's about 105, 110 degrees all the time in that place. It's extremely humid. It's noisy. He said, what can I do? Instead of feeling sorry for myself, what can I do? Of course, he's heard this a hundred times, but somehow it's helpful to hear it again. I said, well, each of us has within us, not just within us, it's what we are,

[09:41]

a precious jewel. How do we make it shine? What is the secret? He said, you've got this wonderful opportunity as you go to work to do it. And of course, that opportunity is what our life is, second after second after second, just to be the suffering of that heat and humidity. The rather rough, aggressive people he's working with. To give up the hope as he's working that it could be different. See, I'm not saying he shouldn't seek another job, but at that very moment, that's the job he has. And in just being that suffering, just being exactly what his life is during the period of being at work, that is the jewel, that is nirvana. So, he said, well, okay, I'll do it.

[10:47]

And he'll probably call next week and say, Joko, what do I do? See, we have to, I have to too, we have to look at this over and over again, because all of us want something nice somewhere else. What we don't want is what our life presents to us right this very moment, which can be grief, disappointment, it may also be some happy thing, rewards. It's a quotation from something or other, I don't know what it is. The only difference between carbon and a diamond is pressure. Now, as long as we live, and this isn't pessimistic at all, our life, in one way or another, consists of pressure.

[11:48]

There's no way to go through a human life for long without experiencing some sort of pressure. It doesn't have to be a major event. It can just be that person in the office next to yours, yours who just never can speak a pleasant word, or the boss who's unreasonable, or the wife who's this, or the partner who's that, you know, we all know. That's what life is. And practice is being what your life is at this very moment. And again, it by no means implies not to affect change in life. But the only way we can affect change is by being totally with the situation as it is. Definitely change should be affected. That's again what life is about.

[12:49]

If there are weeds, we pull them up. If the baby's wet, we change the diaper. But as we change the diaper, just change the diaper, and then let the dry diaper be there when it's done. Because when we are completely willing, and none of us can say this, but in theory, when we're willing to be what is, then somehow our vision clears, and we know what to do without anyone telling us. See, we know everything within ourselves. If we don't keep covering up life with false hope, we always know. And the way the process of Zazen is simply that, constantly be with the present, be with the present, be with the present.

[13:51]

And when you wander into your ideas about it, your fantasies, your hopes, your dreams, turn back, not just once, but 10,000 times if need be, a million times if need be, over, over, over. And the patience to do that, and the courage, see, because we don't really want to do that very much, which is the life of a Bodhisattva, and that comes from this deep vow, which our life essentially is. So there are two sides to this. One is if we have a bicycle going along, and so instead of the flow of that energy, we put a spoke in the bicycle wheels constantly, we're putting it in there, and then we wonder why the bike doesn't go along very well. What if that spoke we put in the bicycle wheel? Always our thoughts and fantasies about life,

[15:00]

instead of sweaty, see, just be sweatiness itself. As long as we do this, we will find life baffling, confusing, difficult. And since we're putting our hopes somewhere outside of ourselves, we'll feel we are victims of life. As long as we do this, we will pin our hopes on something. It might be a teacher, it might be a center, it might be a practice, it might be a method. We find endless things to pin some hope onto. Now, I'm not saying, of course,

[16:05]

we don't need teachers, we don't need centers, we don't need techniques. We need them very, very much. But when we think, ever, something except ourselves, and our own effort, correct effort, is going to affect some sort of a transformation in our life, then we're deluding ourselves. Any teacher is here simply as a guide, so you can get in touch with the wisdom you always already have. Center, practice, anything that's done is to assist you in doing that. I'm sure we need it, we need it tremendously. But be careful.

[17:07]

Idealization of a teacher, misconstruing the functions of teachers and centers, leads to definite trouble for everyone. It's always up to us. There's a story that I like. There was a man who was in a town that was being swept over by a tidal wave. So he was up on his roof, and the water's very high. He was sitting up on the roof, and here's the water coming in. Along came a rowboat, and he said, come on, get in, get in, time's late, you've got to get in the boat, you've got to go. He said, no, no, no, no. God will save me. So he waited and he waited, by now the water was up to here. Along came one more rowboat, and they said, this is your last chance. You've got to get in, why are you waiting? He says, I have faith. He said, God will save me.

[18:12]

So, finally, he was in up to here. And one last helicopter, combing the area, came down and said, I'm sending down a rope, take hold, get in, this is absolutely your last chance. And he said, no, no, God will save me. So, he went under the water, and he drowned, and went to heaven. So he went to see God, and he said, God, why didn't you try to save me? And God said, but I did, I sent you two rowboats and a helicopter. So, I think, and I don't care whether we've been practicing two minutes, two weeks,

[19:14]

ten years, I think we have to look at how we hold our practice, how we hold our responsibility for our practice, which does mean our life, of course. How do we hold that? What are we expecting when we come here? When we come to ZCLI? Always people come in great hope that something will save them. Something. Someone. And we extend it, of course, into our daily life. Someone's going to make an ice for me. My partner, my daughter, my son, my parents. Somebody's going to do it. Never. I think most of you know

[20:26]

the story of the old Tenzo that Dogen Zenji met when he first went to China. It's a famous story, but I tell it over and over, because it's a story that I tell If we understand the story and a few of the key points in it, we have an excellent idea of what Zen practice is about. But I'll tell it for those of you who may or may not know it. It's about Dogen Zenji when he first arrived in China. This is one of the leading monasteries. He saw the old Tenzo, or head cook, out on a very, very hot day, spreading seaweed in the sun. Of course, the dried seaweed, he would serve them all winter as food. And so he said to this old Tenzo, How old are you? Tenzo said, I'm 68. Now, of course, the Tenzo has many, many assistants. And so he said,

[21:30]

Why don't you let someone do it for you? Let one of your assistants do this really brutal work. Tenzo said, He is not me. Dogen Zenji still didn't get it, so he said, Well, you're too old to be doing this. We should get some rest. It's too hot in the sun for you. Take it easy. The old Tenzo said, Rest? For how long? Particularly in America, I think, our whole idea is to get somebody else, if possible, to do our work. Particularly in doing a practice like this, which is really a very hard practice in a certain sense.

[22:31]

Haven't you ever sat there and thought, Really just silly to sit here with this pain, this difficulty. Must be some easier way to get to wherever I want to go. How many of you have felt this? I think practically all of us. It's almost universal. Especially if we sit long sessions on a hot day. I've sat through the afternoons, I've thought, This is ridiculous. But, when we begin to see that spirit of this old Tenzo, He is not me. See, there is no one who can live my life for me. There's no one that can feel my pain. It's my privilege to feel my pain. It's absolutely mine.

[23:36]

There's no one that can take anything I experience away from me. And it's that absoluteness of human life, which in a way is our gateless gate, you might say. See, how many of us consider it just a privilege to experience our life just as it is? The pain, the grief, the boredom, the happiness. It is absolutely mine. And you can't experience my stomachache. I can't experience your aching knees. That is absolutely yours to experience, your privilege. I can't experience your desolation when you're upset. That is what the old Tenzo understood,

[24:39]

and at that point what Dogen Zenji did not understand. That my life doesn't matter whether it's as a man or as a woman, is absolute. And no one can live it for me. And living, being willing to live our life that way, paradoxically there is no suffering when we're willing to just do that. Understanding that, then we can have a Zen life, if you want to say there is such a thing. What does it mean? Take care of what's right under your nose. There are dirty dishes, we wash the dishes.

[25:43]

Whether we like it or not, we just wash the dishes. We clean up the Zendo. We fix lunch. We type. We do whatever needs to be done. Why? Because that's my privilege. To clean up the coffee service if nobody else wants to clean it up. I remember at work. It took me a while to see that. Everyone would make the coffee service a mess. There was creamer all over and coffee spilled. It took me a while to really get the point that it was my privilege just to clean it up. And the funny thing is that when I started just doing it, pretty soon other people were cleaning up the coffee service. It's funny how it works. So, it's an interesting thing to look at what is there in your life right now that you do not consider it a privilege to have.

[26:43]

We all consider it a privilege to have the nice things. How about the other things? Not so easy. See, we're always looking. We want to use Buddhist terminology. We're thinking we have to find our true self. Where is it? Maybe Mel knows. Maybe Joko knows. Maybe someone knows. But we're always looking. Where is the true self? Everything is self. There is nothing that is not self. Obviously, there's nothing in the universe that happens that is not self. And seeing that, or at least practicing like that,

[27:56]

which means that after a while we will really, really see it in our very bones, in our very gut. Dogen Zenji said, Zazen is enlightenment. Zazen is our life. Not somewhere else. Feeding the cat. Going to the beach. Being with a person you don't like is the self. Can you take responsibility for that? Can I take responsibility for that? No, I can't. Not always. And so we practice patiently, not just today or tomorrow, but for a lifetime. And that's what we do. And not thinking there's somewhere to get.

[28:58]

There's nowhere to get. You're already there. Giving up all hope and serving your life just as it is. I think I don't want to say too much more as a formal talk. All I can say is that if we can live, practice, the way that old Tenzo practiced, spreading his seaweed, he is not me. It's mine to do.

[29:59]

Whatever comes up, it's mine to do. Rest for how long? When somebody else does my work. That's not it. Only I can take care of my life. When I do, I take care of everyone's life. So for all of us, for the rest of our life, diligent, patient, unspectacular, down-to-earth practice is what's needed. And if we practice like this, what will we get? We'll get nothing. What is there to get? You already possess everything. There's nothing to get. Well, we could say there's everything.

[31:05]

Because you are everything, you have everything, but we have to practice in order to realize it. Practicing like that, we can see more and more and more. I mean, I certainly sense it in all of you. To some degree you see it, to some degree I see it. Just from practicing, we do realize that this life itself is our great joy. We can work, take care of it, and share this joy then with all sentient beings. It's not some mysterious thing. So anyway, I want to thank you for encouraging my practice. And I want to... Are there going to be questions and answers? Yes? Um, Joko, could you please tell us...

[32:09]

Joko will do for this. Could you please tell us what you see as the goal of all of this? I see... Oh, you ask the tough ones, don't you? Well... Well, I was saying last night that I don't... I have never thought of myself as particularly a woman something. And yet, because my hormones are different, I'm sure... It is different to be a woman priest, but... Again, I just don't think... I think if we think about it, we miss it. Do you understand what I'm saying? It's again that functioning out of being a woman, and you can't think about that, which is, if you want to say the difference, sure, the difference is there. But I don't think you can think about it or worry about it. As I function, as any woman functions,

[33:09]

they will function differently than a man does, because of certain differences. And that very difference, of course, is the wonderful thing. But I don't think you can think about it intellectually. Does that make sense to you, what I'm saying? Yes, but my question wasn't just... Yeah, I know. What is the role of a... Say again. The question is partly what is the role of a priest, the difference between a priest and a woman. I think it's a very difficult question to answer. I think I've heard it argued about at our center for 10, 12 years. You see what I mean? In a sense, some of the strongest students are lay students. It's not a question of strength. It's not a question of devotion. I would hate to answer it. I feel there is a subtle difference, but... It's not a question, certainly, of one being better either.

[34:14]

I do know that as a priest, Roshi would say, would expect if he wanted me to go to Kansas, he'd say, Joko, go open a center in Kansas. I'd say, yes, I would want to, and I'd do it. And lay people may have stronger family ties, which might override. I think with a priest, the family ties would be secondary. But it's a very subtle thing, and I don't think in the United States that it's by any means clear. You might ask Mel about that. It's a very sticky question, and it's constantly talked about at the center. It's obvious at times that the monks aren't the strong ones, it's the lay people. I'm of no help to you, okay? Don't be scared.

[35:21]

You know, when you ask a question, it doesn't have to be profound, and anything you ask is of use to other people. So we have to be willing to be foolish. So be afraid and ask your question. Everyone's afraid of asking a question, okay? I used to always try to sit in the corner where no one could find me. I wonder if you could say a little more about the relationship between teachers and students. You said, as a priest, before she asked you to go to the center of Kansas, you just said yes. And last night you talked a little bit about also challenging teachers and students, that mutuality. Sure. Well, it's a big question, teacher-student relationships. I can only answer from my point of view. Mel would have a different answer. Roshi would have a different answer.

[36:23]

From my point of view, since I've told you what I think the function of a teacher is, which is simply to assist the student in seeing that he already has what he thinks he doesn't have. So it's a question of openness on part of the student. I mean, the student has to be willing to be exposed. The teacher has to be willing to work with that and also to be exposed. It's a two-way street. And... It should be, I think, nearly always challenging and at times very difficult. But it's not a social encounter. It can be that partially at times, but basically no. That relationship is to open up that place in us that we are afraid will be opened up. We want it opened up, but we don't want it opened up.

[37:25]

And it's to cut through that, which is what the teacher-student relationship should be about. We are very, very fearful that all our hopes about life will be taken away. And we have subtle, subtle ways of defending our way of holding that space tight. And in this relationship, we want to cut through. In time, at first it may not look like that, but in time as that relationship deepens, we want to really cut through the nonsense. Teacher has nonsense too. Don't think they don't. But a good interchange, again, as I said, you assist my practice, maybe I assist your practice. It always goes both ways. I wouldn't do something like this

[38:26]

if I didn't grow from doing it. I always learn something. Teacher-student relationship is that open, frightening growth. It shouldn't be routine. Yes? I've been thinking a lot, as I think a number of us have, about this relationship between one's teacher and as a student. And one aspect of it, which comes up often, particularly for me these days, is the way I understand this relationship in terms of authority. And I think that that aspect, or potential aspect of the relationship, is a knotty and troubling one for us as Americans. And I think that to some degree we get ourselves into some difficulty in thinking about this relationship

[39:26]

as we understand it coming from a Japanese-sounding tradition. And I wonder if you might comment a little bit on that particular aspect of the teacher-student relationship that tends to come under the description of authority. Yeah, again, remember, you're just getting my personal opinion about this. I think Rose, she would probably talk about it differently. I don't view a teacher as being an authority. I will also say, it came out last night, that students want to put teachers in a place of authority. See, that's another side to it, which is very interesting. It's a psychological thing. But I don't view a teacher as an authority. I view a teacher as a experienced friend. Not always a sweet friend,

[40:26]

but an experienced friend. And I rarely, very, very rarely, would tell another person what to do. I don't feel that's my function. I feel my function is to enable a student to see for him or herself what they should do. And even if that means confusion for a long time, I don't think it's my role to step in and straighten that out. Very occasionally, if there's something really desperate going on, I'll say, hold on, do this for a few weeks to try to keep things from absolutely being desperate. But fundamentally, no. Now, I don't think all teachers in Zen practice would agree with that by any means. But that's my personal feeling. And I feel we have to straighten out in time the elements coming from the Japanese hierarchical, I can't ever say it, hierarchical and authoritarian tradition.

[41:28]

We have to straighten out what parts of that make sense and are valuable to us. And free ourselves from some of the elements that are not. And that does not necessarily mean changing the outward forms a great deal. But then, how do I understand what you said a few moments ago about what maybe in Christian terms I'd understand as obedience to Roshi, who asked you to go and open up... But because I see the central core of myself and the central core of Roshi are the same, and I would view, in a case like that, that if he wanted me to do that it would be okay. It's not bowing to authority. That may be confusing, but again, I think that's that something that develops

[42:30]

between a student and a teacher which is almost inexpressible. As a matter of fact, Roshi very rarely asks anyone to do anything that, should I say, is greatly in conflict with what might be reasonable for their lives. For instance, he's having me go back as a teacher to San Diego because I lived there for 20 years and I like it. He knows that. So he's not asking you to go to Canada? No. I'm just saying that I wouldn't fight it. He is asking me to go to Australia next month and in many ways it's an interesting trip, but I wouldn't do it if he didn't want me to. Does that make any sense? In a way these things are paradoxical, but I hope it's a little clear. Something comes up in my mind speaking about Christians and obedience and teachers. Brother David spoke on obedience

[43:31]

when he came here and gave a seminary class in San Francisco and he spoke of obedience not to authority such as obeying the bishop or something like that, but as obedience to oneself. How do you see that in relationship to obedience to the teacher? Well, I don't think you'll be obedient to your teacher or should be unless there's that central communication. See, Roshi and I are very different kinds of people. He's very Japanese, I'm very American, but there's that central thing which is where we come together and I agree with what Brother David said that the obedience in our life is to what you might call the master. What is a master? Just a Buddha nature which we are. You see what I mean? But in relationship to your teacher that will take that's what Dharma transmission is sharing that central devotion to the master

[44:34]

you might say and then that will take various forms within that relationship. I think it's fine. What do you think? That's exactly what I'm trying to say maybe not saying it very well. Does that make sense to it? Yeah. Okay. Being ourselves. For personal... Doing that you will develop as a person. In fact, it's the only way you'll develop as a person. For instance, experiencing anger directly which is just that physical reality which is anger it will transform itself into clarity and understanding which is what we're which is what personal development is, right? So

[45:35]

Zen practice is if we understand it exactly equivalent to personal development. Does that answer your question or not? In some ways. I feel there's some paradox there's some sense of just accepting things as they are. There's also some sense... I didn't say not to change them in the next second. See, the biggest error I find in students is that they come in and they say oh, I'm not a kind person. I should be a kind person. And what we have to experience is the is the unkindness. Experiencing it it immediately transforms. But if we cover it up and just try to be kind on the surface it doesn't work very well. But almost universally what people are trying to do is to be different. To be other than what they are. Instead of experiencing the reality of where they are

[46:36]

and then letting that transformation bloom you might say. And it will. It will bloom. I've never seen it not happen but it takes courage you see to experience life as it is because that's not our pictures. Our pictures are vastly different than that. That's why it takes courage to do good Zazen. To really be here. No reason. Just practicing itself is having everything we need. And definitely we have to practice. To fulfill our vow. It's always a paradox. We have to practice. There's no reason. We already are perfect whether we realize it or not. And we have to practice. For no reason. Just to accomplish the Buddha way which is no reason.

[47:36]

Does that make sense? No. It doesn't make any sense. See it doesn't have to make sense. The only place it will make sense is within yourself. And then it makes all kinds of sense. I don't think you can answer that one with your head. With sitting, sure. It's clear. I don't know. Koan study? Yeah. We're sort of a mixture. For some people and not all I find Koan is a useful way to practice. In general when the breath Samadhi is somewhat settled and the mind is not all over the place but able to stay present for periods of time.

[48:39]

For some people the ones who whose practice is a practice of doubt then Koan study is sometimes useful not always. Again practice is a very individual thing. There are many many ways of practicing even though they all come down to the same thing just be here. So they're used I don't know I wouldn't say for me it's a major teaching way but she can tell us it's just as valuable. Well in teaching you certainly hopefully get to know the person sitting in front of you

[49:41]

and people just vary. For some people just to sit quietly and do Shikantaza which is the most difficult of all practices follow the breath perhaps. They're happy with it that inner growth just sort of is obviously unfolding. That's what they want. It's just as though it's as natural to them as walking down the street and for them it's just fine. For some people no. They're just a mess of questions and doubts and what is life all about why am I unhappy Sometimes koans are useful and it all depends on the person. For some very very new people with a lot of psychological problems it could be

[50:42]

all sorts of things. Sometimes I just have people sit and just be aware. Just come in and tell me what they're hearing which is the tree I mean the car the child's voice they just sit and be aware it's a very scattered form of awareness that's not Shikantaza but sometimes that's useful so each student is different and then it boils down to with more mature students you see a choice between pure sitting and koan practice. I have had one I got here about six years with constantly comes up feeling of kind of feeling restriction restriction feeling or expression even though I don't experience that in Zazen it's in the general

[51:43]

way that we are in form at a particular surface well I think you're expressing I'm trying to get it some resistance you have perhaps well just be resistant see that's the form of anger right okay and just be that just just do it okay just chant okay and just be that resistance be that chanting that's a wonderful service then and in time it'll change okay just be what you are again right you have you have pictures that that's not so nice just be what you are and then it will the Buddha nature within you will take care of it okay all right just notice that you want to do something else

[52:45]

but if you're here doing service that's what you're doing right so just do service okay okay all right so you know we do this all day long this is you know you're just describing what our day is like right I mean I have to clean out the kitchen shelves resistance you know we just do it let the resistance be there and go on to something else that's what life's all about just enjoy your service okay and saying that everything is you versus yourself even the person you don't like and the bad things uh-huh as you're encountering that sometimes it's not even a question of remembering and saying it to yourself oh yes I don't like this but this is the self so I'm going to accept it you get so caught up

[53:46]

in the scenario sure of what what's happening that you forget uh-huh entirely that it's of course we forget we do so is is practice eventually helpful uh-huh sure is there one way you can remind yourself of saying it well I think one way we would say the one reason in sitting we can see all this much more clearly daily life goes by so fast that uh sure most of the time we're not going to see what we're doing at all but the longer you sit the more that sitting invades your daily life and the more you see and the the more you can respond to what's coming in but without attacking back see there's a difference between response and attack it doesn't mean not to take care of the person who yells at you it's okay to respond but there's a difference always between response and attack and

[54:47]

the better you sit the more honest you are with yourself uh over time there's a settling in your life it just takes place Roshi always says it takes 40 years no matter how clear your vision is to have a life that can reflect that all the time so 40 years is a lot of practice right so sometimes I think we're just overly ambitious we think it should all happen I went to session how come I'm so mixed up next week but if you go to session for 10 years really really practicing it's an evening out it takes place so let's not again be too ambitious okay alright last night you um you talked about the role of one's body

[55:48]

what one what one's body teaches you when you're sitting and I was wondering if you could say something more about that but the process of transformation when when you really understand where you are right now and that's where you are right now how does your body teach you that because we are our body see the the little mind the ego is our thoughts about life and the body is our life you see what I mean you know your heart beats the blood circulates your hair grows tremendous wisdom thousands of chemical reactions taking place in each one of us as we sit here are you doing it no consciously this innate intelligence that we are call it buddha nature call it whatever you want taking care of everything and um so the whole secret as I was saying is our physical

[56:49]

experience of our life that's why posture is so important the experience of Shikantaza just a sensory input coming in just whole emphasis in Zen practice if you look clearly it's on the body there's one teacher in Japan that does nothing but teach posture he figures if you really take care of your posture constantly everything else will take care of itself and all I can urge you to do is to see if it's so for yourself and that means constantly return from your thoughts about life your fantasy and return to what just the experience that's going on within each one of us at any second so life feels

[57:50]

like something there's all sorts of little prickles and changes and tightnesses and flow of energy as it's working its way through us just be that totally, totally be that and then samadhi will deepen naturally does that make any sense to you? you have to practice with it I understand that Mel emphasizes posture a lot here I think in fact I understand San Francisco Zen Center does and I think our center does but not enough I think it's well Roshi often says it's a part of our practice it isn't taken care of well enough so experiment with it it's hard to talk about because it's subjective there's no subject-object you can't talk about thank you when what?

[59:10]

when a question was asked about you you find different meanings maybe for many when you practice and you you leave how you find prickles quickly and you keep the same in mind it seemed to me that you were inclined to emphasize the difference so much although there are differences in the making well I think when we emphasize the difference we're getting into our head trip about it you see what I mean well I'm trying to say that as a woman I can't help but be a woman do you see what I mean there's no way to avoid that I wouldn't want to but I mean how could I teach like a man for instance I can't so I don't need to think about it all I need to do is to have my own practice be as diligent as possible and then

[60:11]

it will be a woman's practice expressing itself does that make sense it makes sense I have trouble when I'm with a man a male teacher I don't know how to get through because I don't know how to express myself or I feel misunderstood or I feel there's some gap that I haven't been able to you might find it with a woman teacher too though see I don't think it's all just a question of sex you know every woman teacher teaches differently too you know what I mean it's not you might find some women teachers you can't relate to at all again always return to yourself and try to see what's going on with you also with it I mean I think there's validity to your question but I don't necessarily

[61:13]

think it implies at all that just having a woman teacher is the answer and there are many many kinds of men many kinds of women and for any given student I think definitely one teacher may or may not be the best teacher one person well I think say if each of us had twenty teachers that we could work with say for two or three months each we would find that our life might grow the most with one of those teachers and it's got nothing to do with the virtue of the teachers it's just we are different I know that doesn't help you very much see I'm not really it's funny at our center there's very little question of someone

[62:15]

being a woman teacher I don't think it's ever mentioned particularly I asked my daughter to do a little research she's my and she went scooting around the center and she said no mom nobody really considers you to be a woman teacher I said they don't so a teacher is just a teacher I don't know why our center because we have a lot of Japanese influence too but somehow that isn't particularly a question yeah I mean well perhaps I can't speak for anything I haven't experienced yeah okay no I mean

[63:21]

I'll be honest I'm really amazed at this interest in a woman teacher what's that about because I don't think of myself as being particularly a woman teacher it's just this is a job I do and until the last year or so I never thought of it but it's been brought to my attention now so much that yes well I think part of it part of it is that for some of us there aren't any women teachers that is who are acknowledged as teachers that we have a chance to see and be with and that in itself suggests some terrain I mean I think for those of us who are connecting with the Zen center here could be I think it's an interesting question though yeah I think it's an interesting question though see to me this whole question of a teacher

[64:21]

has nothing to do with sex I've never had the slightest desire to have a woman teacher what I'm interested in is that one thing when I go into Datsun has nothing to do with my anything except just that central area I want to learn about and then I can use it any way I want I can use it as a woman I undoubtedly will but again I've never had that question that I think I would learn more from a woman teacher or do better I yeah I know I know I'm saying and I'm not saying I think it's real nice I guess there are women teachers and certainly in our center they seem to be what are appearing coming up in the next five or ten years definitely it'll be mostly women they seem to be the stronger students so I think what I'm trying to get is what am I not

[65:22]

understanding out of this I think part of the issue is whether the teacher shares your same primary concern with that one central method and whether or not there are other issues involved I think that's what's kind of that could be true and I do think yeah I do think there are phases of practice where maybe some women students that I have find it useful that I'm a woman and it could be for instance those who are pregnant have children I can understand their practice problems certainly a lot better than probably a man teacher can I'm not saying it isn't useful I just don't think it's primary but for sure it's useful I view for instance having babies and raising babies as a just a major practice you have to be selfless to raise babies and maybe

[66:23]

I see that more than at least some men would who haven't actually done it but anyway you know you're bringing up questions for me that I want to think about obviously I haven't thought about them very much I guess that's clear isn't it I think about people and what's going on with them a lot but I haven't thought of it particularly from my point of view of being a woman I'll have to look into that there could be there's something I should be learning that I'm not learning I don't know yes earlier you talked about clothes and that one thing that a teacher had to do it was useful for a teacher to do it in teacher-student relationships to get out that little pocket of hope can you talk more about what those hopes are

[67:24]

what those hopes are it's the hope for something to be different than it is and that doesn't mean not to act to make it different than it is but it's the hope that if something were different my life would be what it isn't now in other words if I had a certain relationship if I had a certain job if I had a certain recognition if I had a certain position or reward or any kind of set of circumstances if I had that if I had that hope fulfilled in other words then my life would be different be better and maybe it's not clear that I'm by no means saying not to take action

[68:24]

but the action should always flow from dealing with the present really having the difficulty and then coming out of the present dealing with that seeing then this next step and the next step and the next step but unrealistic hope leads to false suffering in that sense it is false suffering it doesn't lead there it just is I mean these are kind of cruel words I remember once walking with a stick years ago and I don't know why I was storming around I have to give up all hope and the students went rushing in to see the two teachers all day long what does she mean we have to give up all hope it really upsets me yes

[69:25]

sure sure when we say in Zen to give up thinking it by no means means intellectual thinking we have to think we can't live without thinking but clear study for instance you know what do people do when they study for instance they're studying along and they're studying and they're studying and then pretty soon I wonder if I should call Mary I wonder what she's doing tonight so there's clear intellectual thinking it's very rare and we're constantly interrupting it with our fantasies our hopes but Zen has nothing against the intellect it should be used well that's not intellectual thinking that's hope no I'm not saying by that not to plan for instance if you're a nuclear activist it doesn't mean not to plan

[70:28]

to take part in this but that's just planning I will do this I will do this I will take this step I will take that step but hope is the emotional attachment to each step of the way it should turn out this way it should be this you just do it and do it with everything you've got just like the old Tenzo so planning and action are not what I'm talking about by hope and action where you think about some other state of affairs and how to bring it about or you analyze alternatives I mean you're not your body and you're not dealing with that's alright at that point you're totally being the body which is the thinking process see the thinking is physical too right sure when you clearly think see it's just thinking and definitely

[71:29]

while it may not feel like a pain in your knees there's definitely a physical process going on all sorts of neural connections forming as you really think but that's one thing and the sort of way we interrupt that thinking is another matter sure we have to think if I want to come up here for the weekend I have to think this, this, this this before I come right but if I add on to that as Rinzai you know said add no head upon your own means at each moment there's planning thinking acting but not the extra personal emotional overlay and most of us are confusing the two all the time and that's why we're so unhappy does that answer your question? what I would do if I were sitting

[72:29]

would be to notice all the thoughts like that this happened why did it happen I really think that I really think that and then just go back to the breathing and let that really settle the matter for you you can't really I think you can go through all your intellectual thoughts about it but eventually it's always the direct experience of what's going on with you which will tell you the truth about it you know you can think endlessly in a relationship well if only I'd said that he should have said that well it's because I don't understand this it goes on and on and on and on there's no end to it and does it really take care of anything that's what people are doing all the time the snarl just gets tighter and tighter and tighter see essentially that's a dream something's happened

[73:30]

where is it you know the mind of the past is ungraspable where is all that stuff that happened yesterday you work with that it's again it's difficult to describe the difference between life where you're constantly mulling things over trying to figure them out and then relying on your samadhi power and if something comes up it comes right out of there hasn't everyone here had the experience of instead of trying to think up an answer to something all of a sudden it just comes have you all had that experience without really hassling the whole thing

[74:32]

so much all of a sudden there's the answer and that again I'm talking about something that's really hard to talk about so work with that I think this is the witching hour right okay thank all of you very very much

[74:55]

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