This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfcc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good evening. Can everybody hear me? The sound is good. Great. So how many people are... New this evening, this is the first time they've had a talk at City Center. Quite a few newcomers, well, welcome. Usually on Wednesday nights, we don't have so many newcomers, so I prepared a talk that was for those people that have had 10 years of a thousand experience. So I'm going to alter it slightly. I was at Tassajara last week, which was wonderful.

[01:02]

I hadn't been there for a while, leading a study week. And just out of curiosity, how many people here have not been to Tassajara? Oh, quite a few people. Well, Tassajara is our mountain monastery that the Zen Center... bought in 1967 and established in 1967 as the first Zen monastery outside of the Orient. And it's an absolutely marvelous place and is really sort of the place where Tsukiroshi's style of Soto Zen was established. And I always feel so grateful for the fact that it exists when I'm there. and that it's such a wonderful place to practice. Anyway, when I was there, I was reminded of the first sentence of the Sandokai, which is called The Harmony of Difference and Equality, the poem we chant during service once a week, I think, here at the center and at Tassar.

[02:16]

And the first sentence of that poem is, of the great sage of India is intimately transmitted from west to east. The mind of the great sage of India is intimately transmitted from west to east. The great sage of India was Buddha, and the person that wrote this poem was an 8th century Zen master in China. So it being intimately transmitted from west to east India was west of China so China was east to west so it went from west to east and of course then it got transmitted from China to Japan again from west to east and then from Japan to California from west to east which is so it really has been the mind of Buddha has been transmitted from west to east

[03:16]

which is wonderful, except for I keep thinking of us being in the West and the Orient being in the East. So maybe the mind of Buddha really was transmitted from East to West in the reverse direction by the time it came to the 25th century. So anyway, you get the idea. It got here. And... Well, first of all, it doesn't say the teaching of the great sage of India. It says the mind... of the great sage of India. So what is the mind of the great sage of India that got transmitted to us? And I thought it was interesting that they used the term intimately transmitted. And, you know, we have in Zen this tradition that Buddha intimately passed person to person, warm hand to warm hand, face to face his understanding to his successor that successor passed it on to a successor who then took it to china and so we have this long lineage of 90 zen teachers 90 buddhist teachers that intimately person to person passed this mind of buddha down to us now this is not a

[04:42]

exactly historically true, even though we chant the names every morning, or at least at Tassar every morning. Here we do it once a week. That list was made up in China because they like families. They like to be able to talk about historical family lines. But in actual fact, I think even though it historically isn't accurate, all those names, the feeling of it is actually accurate. That is, it really was transmitted human to human, one mind to one mind, one heart to one heart, all the way here. And the reason I feel so clearly about that is Suzuki Roshi actually brought his Zen mind to us. He met us at Tassajara and in this building and transmitted that mind of Buddha to us. And that mind he used to refer to sometimes as big mind, Or Beginner's Mind, the famous book that was a collection of his essays.

[05:49]

He used to say a beginner's mind is a ready mind, an open mind. So this is a mind that's bigger than our little self-centered mind that is busy trying to figure out how to make its way in the world. It's a mind that's connected to everything. So... It's also the mind that we have when we practice zazen, which was the primary practice that he brought to us in America. Really, there wasn't much formal zazen going on in America until Suzuki Roshi brought it to us. And so I think that mind that we have when we said zazen is the mind that was transmitted from India intimately to us here. So I was reminded of that mind is also a kind of a not knowing mind. And when I was at Tashar, I was talking about this very famous koan or story titled, Not Knowing is Most Intimate.

[06:58]

And it was the story of a monk on pilgrimage who dropped into a monastery During a snowstorm in the habit of that monastery, he asked him, where are you going? And he said, I'm going around on pilgrimage. And the abbot said, what's the purpose of your pilgrimage? And the monk said, the pilgrim said, I don't know. Which was a very sort of honest answer instead of the normal fancy answer he could have given because this was a fairly experienced pilgrim. And... Dijong said, not knowing is most intimate. So I wanted to talk a little bit about that, not knowing is most intimate. I think especially nowadays, we know an enormous amount. We know so much that it's hard to imagine what not knowing is.

[08:01]

And we certainly need to know a lot. I was down at Tassar, and I was just amazed at how much everybody had to know to run that monastery. It's off the grid. It has its own solar-powered electricity. It has its own springs, its own septic systems. And the people that run it have to know how to make all of that work. There's an enormous amount of knowledge figuring out how to do that. To survive in this world, to do the jobs you all have to do out there, you have to know an enormous amount. It's very useful to know things. So what is they talking about? Not knowing is most intimate. It means that even though you know all of this stuff, maybe you don't know the most important things, or maybe you're willing to admit that the most important things you don't know anything about. Like, why are you here?

[09:04]

Or why will you die? Or what is love about? Or how do you actually meet another human being? Faced with those questions, we realize, well, we don't really know anything about that. And so the problem is, of course, we have a... we actually have a great deal of experience we bring into the situation. So if we're going to meet somebody, typically we bring all of that experience and wisdom into the meeting, and it actually sort of interferes with us being open enough in the present moment to see what's going on, to actually be able to meet somebody, to have the moment reveal itself. So if I bring my experience and my knowledge and my knowing mind into a situation, it actually interferes with my ability to see and have the revealed moment present in my mind and body.

[10:22]

Anyway, Suzuki Roshi had a wonderful paragraph and not always so about this not knowing mind, not knowing mind in zazen. I thought I'd read it to you. This was his comment on sitting zazen. This is called, I don't know zazen. We don't know what zazen is anymore. I don't know who I am. To find complete composure when you don't know who you are or where you are, that is to accept things as it is. Even though you don't know who you are, you accept yourself. That is you in its true sense. You only know who you are when you don't know who you are. Isn't that wonderful? Sounds like one of those wonderful Zen statements. I think I'll stick with that one. So that was just my little introduction, my sort of nostalgic feeling about how wonderful it was that Sigurishi brought a not knowing mind to us here in the West.

[11:36]

The other thing I was thinking about when I was down at Tasara is how well everything runs. One of the things about if you come and practice here at Zen Center, especially if you live at Tasara or live in this building, you don't have to worry too much about what you're doing. Somebody tells you, go do this. and you go do it, and magically everything works for you. You go work in the office, and then when the bell rings, you go, and there's food prepared for you. Then when you're through eating food, you take your dishes in, and somebody cleans it for you. I mean, basically, it's very simple to live here, especially for a new student who is just, you know, they go sit zazen. The bell rings, they go down and sit zazen. Bell rings again, they do some kenyan. The bell rings again, they do some more zazen. The bell rings again, they chant some. Sutras, bell rings again, somebody gives them a broom, they sweep outside. The bell rings again, they go to breakfast. It's pretty good. And what's the surprising thing, because, you know, I've just been the abbot here three months, it's very similar for me.

[12:37]

Bell rings, I get up, I go do a jindo around the building, bowing to various altars, go in, greet all the students. The bell rings, I go have a private interview with somebody. The bell rings, I go, it's very nice. It's a system. It's a whole system that's been set up that basically works so that you can spend your time, you know, watching your mind. So I really appreciate that. Of course, I'm sure that's the same way it is in your work world out there. Those of you that work in the outside world, you go to a job, right, and they tell you to go do something, and you never have to worry about whether the companies run well or not. Maybe you do. Possibly you do. Anyway, we worry about those things, too. This is an organization that has its complexities and its issues and people run budgets and things like that. But anyway, so the actual subject matter of my talk tonight, which we are finally getting to, thank God, is it's a koan by one of my favorite Zen teachers, Jajo.

[13:51]

But before we get to the koan, we're going to have one more preface, and this is a poem written by the third ancestor titled Faith and Mind. And the first four lines of the poem are, The great way is not difficult. Just avoid picking and choosing. If you don't grasp or reject, the way enlightens itself. I'll read it again. The great way is not difficult. Just avoid picking and choosing. If you don't grasp or reject the way enlightens itself. Right? It's pretty simple, huh? You know what we're doing. When I say picking and choosing, you know what that is? That's when you go, I really don't like that salad. I want this salad over here. There's too much dressing on that salad, or it's too hot today. I wish it was colder. Why did that person not smile at me more? You know, the zillion preferential comments we make in our mind all day long. So here we go. The great way it is not difficult.

[14:53]

We just don't need to do any picking and choosing. And then if we don't grasp at things, want more of this or reject things we don't like, we'll be enlightened. This is instruction from the third patriarch. It seems pretty straightforward to me, except for it's impossible, right? Because that's all your mind does is pick and choose. I mean, it's just one constant picking and choosing, one preference after another. And, of course, one could work on it and say, well, I prefer peanut butter cookies over chocolate cookies, but if somebody offers me a chocolate cookie, I'll take the chocolate cookie and I won't, you know... And you could spend a lot of time working on that, but you really still wouldn't solve the problem because in the end, if you really look at your mind, you have some deep preferences that you won't give up.

[15:55]

Like, I don't want to die, even though that's, you know, or I'm really hungry because I haven't eaten for three days. You know, those are things that will really get to you. And even if you examine your thinking mind, you'll realize that your thoughts are actually... picking and choosing. You pick this thought over that thought, and in the end, even now the neuroscientists are showing that even the way we visualize anything is based on picking and choosing going on in our head. So fundamentally, we are beings whose entire life is constructed of picking and choosing. So what are we talking about here? I mean, how can we give up picking and choosing? So the subject for this evening's talk is how do we examine our own picking and choosing, notice how much of our picking and choosing comes from our karmic upbringing, the childhood we live, the kind of belief systems we developed as children that affect the way we view the world and the choices we make.

[17:09]

And is there any hope in dealing with that situation? So now we get to the koan that is the subject of tonight's talk. So Zhao Zhou, who is probably my favorite Zen teacher from this period. Are any of you familiar with Zhao Zhou? How many people aren't familiar with Zhao Zhou? Everybody. Zhao Zhou was... a young monk. He found his teacher when he was young, like 18 or 19, and he studied with his teacher for 40 years. So he was a very accomplished Zen teacher when his, his teacher died. And so he left the monastery and went on a pilgrimage for 20 years. So he was 80 years old when he settled down to run his monastery and he lived till he was 120.

[18:11]

So he had 40 years of teaching So I like him partly because he was really old and mature when he started teaching. And Suzuki Roshi was kind of that way when he came to America. He was already a pretty mature teacher. We met him when he was quite developed as a Zen teacher. And also, Jiajo was famous for being very kind-hearted. And he wasn't one of those Zen guys that would go around and hit you with a stick as soon as you goofed up. usually had kind words, and he has many, many koans in all the collection of stories about the Zen teachers from China. And so it turns out that on this particular subject, he has four koans in the Blue Cliff Records, which is a lot, which made me think he was particularly interested in this idea. So he has four koans, and they all start The same way, the great way is not difficult, just avoid picking and choosing, and then there's some commentary.

[19:17]

So I'm going to talk about the first one, which is case two in the Blue Cliff Records. So Zhao Zhou teaching the assembly said, the great way is not difficult, just avoid picking and choosing. As soon as there are words spoken, this is picking and choosing, or this is clarity. This old monk does not abide within clarity. So what should we do? So a monk said to him, Since you don't abide in clarity, what do you do? And Jajo says, I don't know either. And the monk says, Since you don't know, teacher, why do you say you don't abide in clarity? And Zhao Zhao says, it's enough to ask the question, just bow and withdraw. So, the great way is not difficult, just avoid picking and choosing.

[20:31]

As soon as there are words spoken, this is picking and choosing, or this is clarity. And then Zhao Zhao says, this old monk does not abide within clarity. Clarity means basically enlightenment. So you either have picking and choosing, or if you can stop picking and choosing, you have enlightenment. But old Jiaojo says he doesn't want to abide in enlightenment. He doesn't want to abide in clarity because, well, why doesn't he want to abide in clarity? I thought that's what we all want to do. We wanted to quit picking and choosing and have that clear feeling of no problems anymore, a completely awake, serene, settled state of mind. Isn't that what we all want? But Zhao Zhao doesn't want that because that's just another state of mind, which you just start to pick and choose over the other states of mind that you have.

[21:35]

So all of a sudden, if you're not in that clear, stable, bright, awake state of mind, you're unhappy because you're not in that right now. Because that's most of the time, you're not in that. You're busy over here picking and choosing. So Jaja is very clear that enlightenment experiences are not things that we want to lust after. I was kind of reminded that I was down at Tassar and I met some of these young 25-year-old students that were passing through as guest students for a few weeks and they wanted to talk to me because they wanted to tell me all about their enlightenment experiences, which is wonderful to hear. I enjoy hearing about people's enlightenment experiences until I realize that they're all hung up trying to find another enlightenment experience and why isn't Of course, right now, they're not very happy because they're confused that they're not having an enlightenment experience.

[22:39]

So it's okay if you have some big experiences. It's very encouraging, especially if you just have them and go on. But in our way, and Zhajo was a great teacher in our way, so you don't start getting into picking and choosing about having big, quiet, deep experiences. experiences, if you have them, great. If not, you deal with picking and choosing. So then the real question becomes, okay, so if you're not happy with not picking and choosing and having enlightenment, that means you've got to live in picking and choosing, and how do you live in picking and choosing in the right way? And that's what the monk asks, you know, what do you do? And Zhao Zhao says, I don't know either. which is wonderful. This goes back to that I don't know thing I was talking about at the beginning, which is even Zhao Zhou, a great Zen master who was probably 100 years old, still really doesn't know how to live in this moment in any way that he could give you a formula or explain or do that.

[23:53]

So that's our problem. How do we do this? How do we... How do we actually... We're picking and choosing all the time. How do we pick and choose? I'm going to say appropriately. And there's a little hint in the commentary on this koan. There was a verse by Suedo that goes, In one there are many, and in many there is one. In many, there is one. In all the picking and choosing we're doing, there is something else going on. There is, just to make it simple, we've heard of the term oneness. There's all the different ways we see the world and categorize it in our mind, and that's one way of seeing the world.

[25:01]

And another way of seeing the world is that It's not that way. Those are just fabricated views of the world by our mind. The mind is actually intimately connected and totally connected in some way. And if you can remember the interconnectedness of the world while your mind is at that same time dividing it into many things and picking one thing over another thing, your picking and choosing is balanced by a sense of connectedness. Right? Does that make sense? So in many, there is one. So yes, we're always going to be picking and choosing, but we want to pick and choose with some sense of our connectedness to everything, some way in which we recognize that we're connected to everything. And the only way we remember this really well is by...

[26:01]

humbly admitting that we haven't the slightest idea how to live life. And we can humbly approach the moment saying with some curiosity, I know there's more going on here than my mind is busy defining, so I'm going to open my heart to the moment and see what it's telling me. So there's one other help that we can have here, which is, I mean, we enter this moment of picking and choosing with our great karmic background, our belief systems, but we also have something else. If you're a student here at Zen Center, I'd call it our practice, our vows, and our precepts. And our practice reminds us of our connectedness to everything and reminds us that

[27:03]

Certain ways of being are what we want. That is, we want to be kind and we want to be present. And in spite of the part of our childhood that tells us, I want more of that and less of that, we say, well, maybe it's okay. I'll take this other thing. So this is really sort of a question about how does one live in the world where you have to make so many decisions and they're so consequential. So how do you do it without being caught up in the particularities of the world? How do you live in this world with a certain amount of equanimity and composure

[28:07]

with so many important decisions to make. I'm reminded of a comment Sikiroshi made about building Tassahara and he said, you know, you try to do a good thing like build a monastery and 10 or 20 bad things will happen. So even when you make your best effort to do a good thing, there are unintended consequences that happen. We have to accept that as part of life. The unintended. So you make your best decision. You be as present as you can while you're doing your picking and choosing. You do it, and then the next moment you see what happens. And you maybe have to alter your course and make another decision.

[29:10]

I'm going to just sketch out a couple more of the cases that we're using these things just for the sort of amusement of you. The next case was case 57. A monk asked Zhao Zhou, the ultimate path has no difficulties, just avoid picking and choosing. And then the monk asked Zhao Zhou, what is not picking and choosing? And Zhao Zhou said, in the heavens and on earth, I alone am the honored one. And the monk said, this is still picking and choosing. And Zhao Zhou said, stupid oaf, where is the picking and choosing? Wow. Zhao Zhou said, stupid oaf? It's very nasty. This case is titled Zhao Zhou's Stupid Oaf. So anyway, this monk comes up and asks him, you know, the ultimate path has no, just avoid picking and choosing. What's not picking and choosing? And Zhao Zhou said, in the heavens and on the earth, I alone am the honored one. People that have studied Buddhism and all are familiar with this.

[30:28]

When Buddha was born, he stepped out and walked, I think, seven steps, put his hand in the air, and because he was a very bright child, spoke. In the heavens and on earth, I alone am the honored one. Which, on the first, sounds like an arrogant statement from a child just born. But what... But... What it actually means is each and everything brings up the whole of reality. Each and everything has absolute value. So he was saying each and everything has the whole of reality in it. And each and everything has absolute value. That means you. And that means that every single action that you take has the whole of reality in it and has absolute value.

[31:31]

So that's what Zhao Zhao was saying to this monk. And the monk said, well, that still sounds like picking and choosing to me, which means I don't think he was actually valuing himself very well. And this is one of those rare occasions where Zhao Zhao spoke, I think, actually pretty toughly with him. calling him a stupid oaf. I think he must have known the monk pretty well. It's very rare for a Zen teacher to call a student a stupid oaf. But I think sometimes actually... Well, one time Suzuki Roshi was angry with me. And on reflection, after thinking about it, now in my elder years, I realized it was because I was disrespecting my own Buddha nature. You know, I think it's appropriate if a teacher tells you, you're not respecting yourself enough.

[32:37]

You don't understand that you have a Buddha nature that you should be respecting and acting out of. And in those cases, it's probably appropriate for a teacher to say, wake up. Now, pay attention to your Buddha nature. And I think that's what Zhajo was doing here in this. I have two more cases to talk about, but I think I don't have any more time. Is that correct? Where's the Eno here? And when am I supposed to end? 8.30? 8.30? We'll save case 58 and 59, titled Jiaojo Can't Explain and Jiaojo's Why Not Quote It Fully to a Future Time. And I'll just sort of summarize and see, maybe have time for one question. I think as a practice, what we can do is when we sit zazen, we can study our mind and see

[33:48]

the depth of our picking and choosing. Really notice in our mind how deeply instilled picking and choosing is in it. And then when we get up and walk around in the world and we pick one thing and we get it and how good we feel about the fact that our picking was rewarded and we choose some other thing and we don't get it and we notice how disappointed we are when we didn't get what we wanted. Of course, this doesn't include the Giants winning or losing Roger. I just want to clarify that level of people you choose. I mean, there are certain things, standards that are beyond what we're talking about in this room tonight. Really examine how disappointed you are when you get it and how happy when you don't get it and how happy you are when you do get it and whether there's really a deep difference in your satisfaction in your life and whether you can explore through this experimentation, whether you can lighten up a little bit on your picking and choosing and see if you can bring a broader view of the whole thing.

[35:12]

And I think this even applies to big disappointments that you have. I found a lot of big disappointments that occurred to me actually turned out to be okay when I followed the route that the other direction led me in. One or two questions on preferences. Yes. Well, you... The question is, how do you align not picking and choosing with the precepts? So I think to the extent that you're at all confused, I think one should always follow the precepts. But as we know, the precept practice is very complicated. Sometimes you follow the letter of the law with precepts.

[36:13]

Sometimes you follow... compassionate version of precepts where you might actually lie even though to save somebody from harm and then there's some sort of ultimate form of following the precepts where you actually know exactly what should be done in the situation which is really beyond any description that could be given by a formal thing So give me something more. What way do you think picking and choosing doesn't work with the precept? Not picking and choosing. So, I mean, you're raising the fundamental question, which is, how do we help people in the world?

[37:56]

How do we actually take care of people? And the precepts are our way of interacting in the world in a way that is kind and compassionate and helpful to people. And to a large extent, our discriminating mind is not always helpful in that area because it is... not able to see the right way to help people. Helping people is more complicated than we at first glance. Obviously, we should follow the letter of the precepts whenever possible, but there are certain times when more flexibility around how you follow the precepts is necessary. That's enough to say about the precepts. Ms. Brendan?

[38:57]

It sounds as if she was asking me to appreciate yourself. Oh, yeah, sure. Yeah. I mean, yourself in the biggest sense. Right. So he was commenting on my comment about Suzuki Hiroshi being angry at me one time, and I was saying that he was telling me that he was angry at me because he wanted me to appreciate myself more. But it's not the... And he said, the knowing part of myself or the not knowing part of myself. And at that moment... I was very involved with a very fixed idea about who I was, which was the knowing part of me, a very limited idea about who I was.

[40:01]

And I was not seeing the bigger part of who I was. Is this at all familiar to any of you? Like at any given moment, you have an idea about who you are, which is so small compared to who you actually are. that it's an embarrassment. Okay? And for you for a moment to realize how big you actually are, how enormously big you are is useful and it's from time to time occasionally helpful if someone says you're being too small, you're not respecting how big you actually are. And this big you is not can't be captured by your thinking mind. The Eno has looked at me and told me it is that time. Thank you very much.

[41:03]

Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma talks are offered free of charge and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, please visit sfzc.org and click Giving. May we fully enjoy the Dharma.

[41:33]

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