My ignorance, because since it's popped up, it's started popping up in many, many places. So I may have seen it before, but it didn't register at all. And it sort of, it began with something that Blanche quoted the last time she spoke from Suzuki Roshi, when he said, your difficulty will show you the way. That's pretty, that's pretty calm, pretty calm. Your difficulty will show you the way. Of course, when you really look at it, the difficulty is usually the place we don't want to go. I mean, that's why we call it difficulty. But somehow, he says that if you enter the difficulty, somehow, something will happen. I expect liberation. So that was mildly disconcerting to hear, too.

[01:05]

Your difficulty will show you the way. I had known in doing counseling with people that what you listen for is where the passion is. You know, they can go on and [...] tell you this endless story. But once they start getting to where it really hurts or where it's really exciting, then, you know, the ears pick up. Because sooner or later, they will tell you the key. Sooner or later. But it's in the passion. It's not in the dullness. So then, I was reading the book, The Tiger's Cave. And, you know, when you read some of this Zen stuff, you'll come across like a sentence. And you will know in your heart that, oh, this is true. Oh, this is true. But your mind can't quite make that turn.

[02:08]

I mean, it's delicious. It's a delicious feeling. It's like being on the hunt. Oh, it's like chasing the ox, I guess, and seeing its footprints or seeing its tail. So you know that he's on to something. And I know it completely has to do with me, of course. But I can't quite get my mind around it, which, of course, is the point. So reading this book about the Heart Sutra of all things, he quotes Dogen. And I don't know where this comes from. If some of you know, please let me know later. He quotes Dogen by saying that Dogen said, The more abundant the clay, the bigger the Buddha. It makes sense. But what he went on to say was that what Dogen was referring to by clay was unbridled, raging passion. Who would have thought?

[03:09]

This was news to me. In other words, the bigger the suffering, the bigger the Buddha. Something's wrong. Something's wrong here. But at least when I read it, uh-oh, but it's also true. So what can this mean? So I read on, and I could feel my mind trying to bend. And it wouldn't for quite a while. Well, then, yesterday, in reading Denkodoku, the Transmission of the Light, by Keizan, I stumbled upon a phrase, which in one, we had three translations of it. And one of them, the first two were kind of mild, I thought, rather mild. So I liked the third one, which was not mild. It was more outrageous. And what this author translated Keizan as saying, he said, once your raging passion bursts forth, you will have a profound realization of the truth.

[04:11]

Isn't that cool? Raging passion. We don't often think of Buddhism as raging passion, somehow. Those things are helpful. Then, what's his name, Leggett, in translating this Japanese abbot's stuff in the Tiger's Cave, he went on to quote Vimala Kirti, who had a poem, who said, he said, The lotus doesn't grow on high meadow, but in the base slime and mire does it grow. Isn't this interesting? You wouldn't think so, would you? It seems like high and lofty is much more a place for Buddhas than in a cesspool. Sure. Then, both, and I'm also reading a book by a scholar who is consulting with a Japanese Roshi,

[05:15]

who, about technical difficulties. I want this recorded for my grandchildren. Is it working? Thank you. She's talking about EQ, and just in passing, mentions many times, as if everybody knows this, that the passions are Bodhi. The passions are Bodhi. Oh, of course. I never heard this before. What is she talking about? The passions are Bodhi. Aren't the passions wicked, and to be destroyed at all costs? I mean, that's my training, isn't it yours? The idea of Buddha, you know, sitting under a tree with a sort of a golden glow.

[06:24]

No passion there. So, at any rate. And then, I was reminded also by reading this, reminded of my sordid past, in reading the Desert Fathers, where one of the young monks, this one happened to be a father, one of the young monks came to the father, and the father said, well, how's it going? How's your prayer life? And he said, well, it's sort of boring. I'm happy enough, but I don't seem to be getting anywhere. And so the Desert Father says, well, go to your cell and pray God to give you a struggle, for the soul is only matured in battle. Interesting. Of course, they lived alone, which was probably part of the problem. If they lived in a community like we do, they might have plenty to work with. So, at any rate, in terms of passion,

[07:30]

in terms of Western institutionalized spirituality, passions aren't so good. In fact, you go to all kinds of lengths to subdue and conquer them. We'll come to find out, these Mahayana folks writing, the ones that said passions are bodhi, and they take a rather dim view of the Theravadin folks. And they say that the Theravadins think nirvana is complete extinction. And so what you work at diligently is in destroying the passions when they arise, somehow, destroying them, so that when they go, then there's no need for life and birth. I'm sorry, birth and death. So then you're free, free from any future lives. Which never really appealed to me so much, personally, because I didn't find that that was very possible,

[08:34]

to destroy passions, because they were the enemy. I had a... well, she wasn't really exactly a friend. She was an acquaintance. But she was a professor at a university, and this was in the late 70s. She was having trouble. She was a writer, of course, and so she was having trouble with her hands. And she was diagnosed with something that none of us had ever heard of before. They called it carpal tunnel syndrome. This was in the 70s. And it was really quite terrible for her. She said it was like sticking your hands into a brazier, a kind of searing, hot pain. And so they tried all kinds of things for operations, you know, scraping off the nerve, opening up the tunnel, and scraping the scar tissue off the nerve, and all that sort of stuff. They finally ended up with a transmitter

[09:35]

that put electrical impulses into the nerve, I guess, that deadened the pain or something. Something like that. But the thing was, she wrote a book about it, and she called it Dealing with Pain. And she used as a structure, not format, structure, the writings of a very famous German general, a war expert. And she dealt with the pain as if it were a war. And, you know, I don't think it worked so well. It seemed like the longer she went, the tighter she got. Tighter, both in heart and mind. And I started reading the book, because she was a friend, and I just didn't like it.

[10:36]

It didn't smack of me, of the truth. Coming from a family at war, personally, we were always, with my father, we were always in a state of war, so I knew the limitations of war. So I thought there might be a better way. Let's see. So it seems that in Western terms, then the passions are bad. They get us into all kinds of trouble. I mean, just think of yourself. Every now and then, I mean, I certainly say to myself, and I also hear others saying that, why did I do that? Why did I say that? That's not what I meant. Or in the midst of passion, getting in all kinds of trouble.

[11:38]

So there's something wrong with them. In the West, we have an excuse, because our culture really is Christian, and largely puritanical. So the notion of original sin, I think, is very strong. In seminary, we joked about the expression original sin by calling it original depravity. That somehow, right down at the core, a mistake had been made. Starting off on the wrong foot. And it was something that could never be rectified until centuries later. But original depravity, I think, is part of why we hate passion. Of course, in the East, apparently it's not like that. I read an interview with Chögyam Trungpa, and he was surprised at the notion of original sin,

[12:41]

because he said, well, how can that be? Because in his understanding, we come from something called tathagatagarbha, the womb of the enlightened ones. So right off the start, and even long before the start, we come from original goodness, original blessing. And that suffering is not because we deserve it, because we're evil, but suffering happens because sometimes it happens. In other words, it's not the basis of our life. It's not the basis. So at any rate, so unbeknownst to me, the Mahayanists, and especially the Zen Buddhists, were saying, no, no, no, passions aren't the trouble. They are bodhi. They are the bodhi. In other words, awakening happens in nothing else. It doesn't happen in nice thoughts. It doesn't happen in heaven. It doesn't happen in pleasantness.

[13:47]

It doesn't happen where nothing's happening. It only happens in turmoil, apparently, in passion, when we are out of control. Oh, yes. I have a wonderful note here. It's one word, and I wondered, what does this have to do with it? So I think I just figured it out. When I was in high school, I think high school, maybe senior year, I knew I wanted to be a priest. And my path was all planned, in my head at least, that I'd go to college as a stepping stone to go to seminary and then be ordained and then save the world. Incidentally, maybe some of you don't know, you know Father O'Malley, Bing Crosby,

[14:49]

his movies, oh, pity, pity, some don't. Going My Way, The Bells of St. Mary, none of those. That's who I wanted to be. He was great. He could sing and dance, and he was very helpful. People loved him and trusted him. Uh-huh, yes. Aside from that. So at any rate, I had had, personally, I had had a very stormy adolescence. Very, like to say it was full of passion, is an understatement, which might not be obvious from those of you who know me now as a person. But it was full of passion. It's just that, of course, it didn't show. But it certainly was there. And I hope you all know how awful it is being an adolescent. Once the hormones and everything start kicking in

[15:53]

for the survival of the race, if not entertainment. Well, at any rate, I had done things, of course, well, you know, like New England, anything done in passion is wicked and disgusting. So, and I certainly had a big dose, but the thing was I'd never told anyone. And there weren't any victims, luckily. Luckily there weren't any victims of my passion. And so I, in the Episcopal Church, we have confession, but we kind of like keep it hidden a bit because of what we viewed as the abuses of our cruel sister Rome, abusing confession and absolution and all that sort of stuff. You know, centuries old, who cares now? But we did in the fifties and sixties. So at any rate, so I decided to, I wanted to make my confession. You know, to finally, finally with somebody,

[16:54]

get it out, get the stuff out in at least a small public realm with one other person. So it was, so I asked my bishop, you know, who should I do this with? Because you don't want to just go to anybody. You know, because some people are really, really unskillful with personal things, as some of you may know. So he suggested Father Kenyon, who lived in Rockland, Maine, St. Peter's. And he wouldn't believe this place. His church, he was very, very high church, we called it. And so you walk into this little building and it looked kind of like a small barn. It was a church, wooden, but it was filled with stuff. I mean, statues everywhere, candles everywhere, and it reeked of incense. I mean, in most of, let's see, a lot of Maine was very low church. So he was, he was seen as kind of

[17:55]

wildly eccentric and probably crazy. But he loved, he loved all that stuff. Well, of course, so did I. And so I went, I went to this guy and I wrote out all my stuff. And we, I think we went in a box. It must have been a confessional. I don't know, I was totally, completely, I mean, nervous is the heart of the covers. I was terrified. And so we went through the form and all that. And I read out my stuff and figured, well, okay, if there really is a God, I shall be dead soon. But I wasn't dead. I didn't make the second leap about God because the crisis was over at that point. So no need, no need tempting fate. At any rate, so, and at the end,

[18:59]

at the end, he, he, he absolved me in nomine Patris et Filii Spiritus Sancti, which I was rather impressed with since we were forbidden to use Latin. But I figured this, this must be the real thing. And, and usually during this confession thing, the priest says some words and you don't want to say too much. And you certainly don't want to treat it as therapy. But he said a few words to me, most of which, all of which, well, most of which I don't remember. But he, he did say, and I didn't tell him what I wanted to grow up to be, Bing Crosby, but he, in his, in his words he said, you know, that it doesn't, it doesn't matter if you want to be a fisherman or a lawyer or a priest or a doctor, you're, you're a child of God.

[20:00]

Just had a passion, goodness. And, and, pardon me, goodness. And, and you are fully accepted. Goodness. Wow, I haven't had one of those in a long time. Excuse me. All I really remember was the word priest. That, that what that was saying, can this be true, that even I, even I can be a priest? Even I? And he was saying, yes, of course, why not? So that, I think that was my first, first glimpse that respectability

[21:07]

was not the primary requirement for priesthood. Later I was to find out I was wrong. But at least from him I knew, I found out that it was okay to be exactly who you are, especially in your raging, unbridled passion. You might not know or have a clue what to do with it, but you're okay. Later I found out that the church was much more interested in respectability. I mean, after all, it was, you know, it was established, it had temporal power, it had its reputation to think of, it had donors to think of, and wanted its representatives to be, you know, respectable, or at least not caught. And so on one hand there was respectability, on the other hand there were mistakes, humiliations, shame, disrepute,

[22:08]

and something I may have mentioned the other time, the other day, conflict, conflict. These things were not welcome in the church. In fact, well, you know, in group training, how groups work, some groups have, they cultivate, it's called a low-conflict norm, low-conflict norm. That means whatever you do, stay away from conflict. When it starts to raise its head, pat it down, or beat it down. Very unsettling conflict. Conflict, evil. Conflict leads to passion. Passion might lead to dancing. Sorry, I had to throw that in. So, low-conflict norm. We have one. I don't know any religious group that doesn't. Well, of course, I don't know anything about Baptists at all.

[23:11]

I understand they're very excitable. But I don't come from that kind of attrition, so I don't know. Glide Memorial, has anybody been there? Yeah, Glide Memorial. I haven't gotten the courage to walk through the door, but what I hear, it sounds totally marvelous. Full, full of passion. Maybe later. So, at any rate, usually those who are good, who want to be good, will avoid things like mistakes and blunders and embarrassment and conflict. But then, I want to take two examples of passion. One is like a crush. Anybody ever had a crush before? No? Think what it's like to have a crush.

[24:14]

The person upon whom you have this crush kind of disappears. They cease to be real, and instead they become an idea. Ideal, perfect, gorgeous, beautiful, exciting, just right. Just for me. And me alone. Isn't it fun? Then it turns ugly. As they try to break through to you, because they are, after all, a real person. They break through gradually. The crush kind of fizzles. Quite disappointing. Of course, if you don't act on the crush, the fizzling comes sooner. If you do act on the crush, it will take a long time. Long time. So that's one, in the midst of passion. The other person becomes an object, but they're not real. An object of your mind.

[25:17]

I think so also in the passion that comes with hatred. Or fear, same thing. Another person, for example, where all of a sudden, with maybe a word, a behavior, a look, all of a sudden they become the one. The one who symbolizes all my misery. The one who I cannot get away from. The one who haunts me. And they cease to be a real person. Instead, I start relating to them as an object, but it's really the object in my mind. Doesn't take much. I had one here, of all places, in our low-conflict norm, a boat of paradise. And it was really awful. I mean, real, horrible suffering. I mean, I would go to great lengths to avoid this person.

[26:19]

Because it hurt so much. And I was so terrified. And Leslie, bless her heart, kept saying, I think we ought to sit down and talk. Talk with each other. And I said, I don't think so. I mean, I couldn't have been paid to sit down and talk. So overwhelming was the feeling. The passion, so overwhelming was it. It finally, I think, fizzled. It fizzled on its own. Some things changed. But being in the grips of passion was no fun. It was no fun. And that was before I realized that, before I knew, before I read this, that in the passions are the Bodhi and no place else. I wish I had had the courage to somehow look at it from that point of view instead of how bad or how terrifically wonderful the other person was,

[27:20]

because it's not really about the other person. I wish I had known how to investigate it in terms of my own mind. But I didn't because I was too scared or too much in love. I guess that's why it helps to have friends. But one thing that they point out, that we point out, I guess we are they, the Zen folks, is that one of the things that arises in passion is the self. Is the self. And usually it's termed clinging to self. Clinging to self. I don't know about you, but I don't find that a very helpful expression. I don't like clinging to anything. Maybe a different word that would be more helpful to me would be like stuck to. Or blind. Blind self. But at any rate, the more they become either completely attractive or completely revolting,

[28:23]

the more I have a sense of self. It's I and them, the object. I and me. If it's somebody that I fear or hate, then we can have war. How long have homo sapiens been on this planet? Anybody know? Huh? A million years. Speak, speak. Eight what? Oh, God. Well, one million is long enough, I think. Well, from the first politicians a million years ago knew that if they wanted war, all they had to do was two things. One was stop contact with the perceived enemy. Stop contact of any form. And then demonize them. Demonize them. I remember seeing pictures of the Japanese that were put out during World War II

[29:25]

to get us involved and to get us going. The Japanese were caricatured as bakti, some sort of evil forehead and evil eyes, that sort of thing, and called names to rally us, to fight the enemy. We just do that. It's what we do when we're afraid. So at any rate, the passions are Bodhi. So either the passions are curse, as I think we've probably all been trained and conditioned, or they're a blessing. Actually, sorry, Maya, but when you mentioned conflict, it sort of brought back all the training that I've had. Conflict, good. Conflict, good.

[30:25]

This is where things get broken open, where the truth gets revealed, when personal conflict is so awful. But I remember that once in the past, there was a good thing about conflict. It often breaks the heart wide open, as nothing else will. But of course, it has to be managed. It has to be managed very skillfully. So at any rate, OK, so what do you do with it? Because when the I, the sense of self, that arises with passion, it's very, very strong, as you may know. Very strong. And the more the I gets questioned, what I try to do is to understand, who is this I that's so impassioned? Who is it? And I thought, I have to get somebody to help me discover who this I is. What is it? I didn't realize until maybe two days ago

[31:30]

that the reason why I could never discover this I is because, well, there isn't one. It's just the passion. Just the passion. And I knew this long ago, that when you're talking with somebody and you reach a place that is highly defended, or very tender, very scary, you don't go through the front door to it, because it's highly defended. So you go around back, see if you can find an open window, or maybe they left the screen door unlocked. So to try to find this I who's feeling very vulnerable and scared and angry is a very difficult job. So, there's an alternative. I think one of the things that in our practice in dealing with the self,

[32:33]

I think it's really important that when we're in the throes of passion that we try not to leak. Not that I'm any good at this, myself, personally, but once we're either idealizing the person or demonizing the other person, for example, in terms of people, they're easy to deal with. Remember when Ingen was talking the other day, he talked about the cup, how the cup will always love you, it doesn't get angry with you, it's very easy to deal with. That's true, that's very true, unless you break it and then it hurts you. So people are really where I think our practice really blossoms or explodes. From your point of view. So try not to leak too much, because we really do think the other person is like we're thinking. I, it is not I, it is them.

[33:35]

And that gets very strong. And as strong as we see them, that says how strong I am too. The I gets really big and strong and unassailable and very defensive. So not to leak too much, in terms of like slander. I like to complain as much as the next person I suspect. But I think in the throes of passion one has to be particularly careful. Maybe, well I had written down, call forth your inner wisdom, that may be just a bunch of poop, I don't know. I think in the throes of passion it's very difficult to call forth your inner wisdom. I think it's rather buried. Although it certainly is there. And I think that may be the seed of Bodhi. That may be the awakening, the awakening mind that's right there in the passion. But, at any rate, what I wanted to get to was, Shusel,

[34:36]

thank you very much. I was practicing for his ceremony. But when he was speaking, but the thank you was sincere, as was the Shusel part. Sorry. Remember somebody asked him, what do you do with, what do you do when you're upset? Really upset, I think that's what it was. And he said, I try to see the environment. I was sitting there thinking, hmm, environment, well, isn't that interesting? I hadn't, that's not one I'd thought of before. And then, you know how we've all been having problems with anger arising? Some of us, maybe not all,

[35:40]

but some of us, which is quite natural, in fact, this is what this whole setup is designed for, to make it as uncomfortable as possible, so that our stuff will come up, so that it can blossom. Well, I was having one of those days, and it was at lunch, and all morning, I was seeing red, seeing red, that's the expression, I think, for everything has gone just a slight bit beyond annoying. And not only people. Everything. Madra. Sanchi, of all things. Everything. Everything. It was too cold. It was too hot in the sun. Everything. Why do they do that? Why do they walk like that? Blah, blah, blah, the whole business. And I was thinking, I really hate, I can't stand,

[36:41]

in fact, I was thinking, maybe I don't belong here. Maybe I should be. You know, and I don't, the worst thing is I don't know where. I don't know where else I should be. That's how bad it was. And, I was thinking, you know, getting our bowls ready, I need to talk with somebody really soon. I need to find out what is happening. Who is this person that has arisen? Who is this? Who is it? But then, then I remembered, this must be Bodhi breaking its way through, I remembered Ingen and what he said about the environment. And so here I was fuming and seeing red and not seeing anything. Do you know what I mean? Not seeing anything. Do you know how when you're in passion you don't see anything? That's one of the things

[37:42]

we like about it so much, I think. It cuts us off from everything. It puts us in our mind. I really couldn't see. All I, you know, I was sitting there not seeing, just fuming and ruminating. Do you know what I mean? It was just a, all I was seeing was a teleprompter in front of my eyes with all my stuff just kept coming, coming and coming and coming and coming. But then from somewhere came, well what did he say? What did he say? The environment. So I sat there and looked over at the Zafu on the floor right over there where Andre is sitting and said, is this Zafu part of it? No. Is this divider part of it? No. I looked down at my bowls, are these beautiful bowls

[38:43]

that I love so much, are they part of it? No. And you know what happened? It vanished. Really. You're supposed to, you're all supposed to say, whoa. Whoa. Thank you, thank you so much. Really, it was like that. Oh my God, what happened? What happened? It was so real. I was so real. My world was so real that it went up in smoke. So, so I think what it comes down to is that some sorrow and suffering with practice turns out to have been nirvana, bodhi,

[39:46]

awakening. In other words, I think probably the poison is the cure. That's all I have to say. Want to talk? Andre? Yeah, yeah. I don't really know what the Japanese or Chinese means, which would help, I suspect,

[40:47]

a great deal, but if we translate it, you know, suffering, and suffering in English, I think really just means to allow. One of the meanings is to allow. Suffering. Suffer the little children to come to me. Let them. Let it be. Let it be the way it is. Part of the truth, part of this passionate lie, part of myself, because myself was very angry and myself was blind. Myself. It was definitely myself. But then to notice, well, the Zafu is not part of this, is it? It's not part of my, the story, the drama, the drama of everything being more than annoying, that kind of stuff. It just didn't fit in. That it was doing me?

[41:49]

It's like, it's like when you, maybe like when you're watching a movie and somebody sneezes next to you and all of a sudden you're not the movie anymore. Oh. Oh. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. It kind of shook me out of the movie, I guess. Very strong movie. Very convincing. But you're, you're, being in the practice of dwelling on the life of the past. And then passing it on. And, so, a lot of writing about

[42:54]

calling on somebody to call, somebody to love, somebody to call. I don't know. Because it's so hard to feel very connected. So, I can kind of see it happening to us. It's happening to us all the time. Oh, yeah. I think it's very delicate. And I'm not sure,

[43:56]

I'm not sure how to distinguish that with the distinguishable. Because on one hand, I think, it seems that, that awakening only happens from passion, from, from the mess, from the suffering, from the suffering. That, that when, when the suffering stops, then you see, then you are liberated from it. You're in the, you're in the world of release. The thing about calming the mind, I think that's nice. That's a good thing. And you can see clearly. But what happens when you're not, when it's not, when it is turbulent, when you are in the midst of passion, say, to calm it, I think there are ways,

[44:57]

there are ways. One is to sit here until you can't stand anymore, until it calms on its own. The other, I think, maybe is to, is to practice with it, to play with it, kind of, like that exercise of is that part of this? Passion, is that part of it? I don't know. You know, I was thinking myself this morning how I don't, I can't picture the Buddha jumping around, doing a jig, from happiness. I wonder. I don't know of any icons or any thangkas. Anybody? It doesn't seem to be the playful type. Marta, you know? I was thinking, I remember that I was thinking that passion, that type, wow,

[46:00]

that's great, that's good, that's good. I wonder if there are any people out there who are out there who are out there who are kind of economic, like what is the name of that group? It's called economic people? Economic people. What is it? I don't know if I understand. Oh we have a big one out here, in that people talking on the radio. Maybe? Maybe. [...] Question being asked, inaudible.

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[61:54]

Question being asked, inaudible. Question being asked, inaudible. for a long time all by himself, which I doubt. I think he probably had a string of servants along the way to bring him food and stuff. I'm not so sure about this living alone business. But at any rate, we went to this rock, this big rock, and it was surrounded by trees and all. And over the edge of the rock was this valley that just opened up. It was expansive. And this big rock, it was an overhang really. You know, just standing on it. Whoa. And then, of course, you look down. And, of course, the hojo-san jumped up on it and, you know, without any fear and looking over the edge and all and standing there and grabbing a hold of her. Remember, I wouldn't let go of you. I figured, oh, God, she's going over for sure.

[63:00]

But, oh, I mean, that has nothing to do with anything, I guess. That's just a fun story. But, oh, that kind of feeling of, oh, wow, you're full and open and free. 18 years, yes. Hmm. I wonder about that. It's hard enough 40 minutes without a bathroom break. Sorry. Is that it? I don't know. Thank you all very much. Thank you.

[64:22]

Thank you. Oh. There, I think it's on. Yes, I love the echo effect. Yeah, I think that might be a bit too loud. Even though it does give me the impression that I'm much bigger than I am. I want to talk about something this morning that I...

[65:22]

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