This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfcc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. and they're all lay-infested teachers in the Suzuki-Yoshi village. So they've received lay, dogma, and trustment from and . They've all been practicing in the drama of 35 to 40-plus years. And they're here to tell us some things about their experience as lay teachers and practitioners.

[01:05]

So starting on the East is Laura Burgess, Martha DeBarros, Whitney Johnson, Bob Rosenbaum, and Lori Schlesienacki. So welcome to them. Let's enjoy the things. Good evening. So I'm Laura Burgess. Welcome, everyone. It's very lovely to be here with my Dharma brothers and sisters and all of you, of course. I came to Zen Center in 1975 and very shortly found myself at Tassajara as a guest student. And it took me a little while to get socialized. I remember Steve Weintraub coming up and saying, he was Tenzo in the kitchen at the time, saying to me very gently, we don't usually sing in the kitchen at Tassajara. So it took me a little while to get in the swing of things.

[02:06]

But not very long after that, I found myself living at Tassajara, and I lived there for three years. And it was a very dynamic and really, really precious time in my life. I remember before I went down there, I thought, how do people make space in their lives to come to Tassajara? And this beautiful space opened up, and I was there for three years. It was a pretty eventful time. I was sitting in the Zendo during Shosan ceremony in the spring, and someone said, hey, there's a fire back here. And we all turned around, and that was the Zendo fire when the old Zendo burned down, followed by the first forest fire and then the floods. So it was a very dynamic event. and beautiful time for me to concentrate my practice at Tassajara one of the things that happened when I was there is that the director asked me if I'd like to be the teacher of some children we had a year there where families were invited to Tassajara and so they came down with their children and there was a little preschool and I was invited to teach in the elementary school there and I had no idea what I was doing but I did love children and I had a

[03:22]

mentor in Mill Valley who helped me teach in this little one-room schoolhouse. And I can remember, you know, all of us just running outside when it started to snow and building a relief map of the Los Padres wilderness. So that was my first taste of teaching children. And when my husband Michael and my daughter Nova and I came back to the city, I was looking for a school for Nova and I was standing in the hallway of an elementary school and I could hear the the joyous laughter of children. And I just, I had this calling. I thought I could teach children every day for the rest of my life. So I went back to school and got my teaching credential and I've been teaching third grade for 27 years. And my children are really my Dharma teachers. And I know Blanche loves this story. One day I was sitting at my desk and Nathan Miller was walking by and all of a sudden he did this little dance. And I called him over. I said, Nathan, what were you thinking about just then?

[04:23]

He said, Laura, do you ever forget you're alive and all of a sudden you remember again? So teaching has really been very central to my Buddhist practice. My teacher is A.J. and Linda Cutts, and she invited me to be shiso at Green Gulch in 2000, which was a wonderful experience. It seemed like it rained every morning when I was ringing that bell. Another very important golden thread in my life is 12-step work. And so after I was Shuso, I started leading retreats and sort of weaving together 12-step work in Buddhist practice, which a number of us are doing at Zen Center. And it's been a very rich combination. The practice of the 12 steps welded with Buddhism is a tremendous support and enlivening combination for us. So I today lead retreats at different practice centers in Northern California.

[05:26]

Often there are retreats for people in recovery. I'm also leading a retreat for parents at Green Culture soon in March, which I think will be a wonderful experience. And right now I'm having fun learning about the brain and Buddhism in my class here called This Very Mind is Buddha. So a great... Connection for me is with these other people that I'm sitting here with, and I've been able to practice with them in different ways and different settings. You know, I find when I run into the people I practice with at Tassajara or people with whom I've practiced for many years, there's this wonderful affinity and a kind of vibration deep within me when I meet these people that I've been practicing with for so long. Something really happens when we sit together in silence. And I'm very happy to be a part of this group and to have been able to practice at Zen Center as long as I have been able to.

[06:30]

So I think that's all I'd like to say. I'll pass it on to Martha. I've got this to win. I guess this is going to have the same effect as you. We're not awfully good at the electronic age, those of us that are really old. Anyway, it's wonderful to be here tonight. I want to bow to Blanche, my teacher of many years. And I want to thank Christina and Marsha for offering this practice period that features lay practice. Thank you both so much. Well, I have a dream. It's a kind of wild dream that probably may not be manifested in my lifetime.

[07:35]

And it's difficult and has some problems to it. But I'm hoping that the lay entrustment path will be given equal footing to the path of priest ordination and Dharma transmission. And that in the Zen centers throughout this country, that there will be two paths offered to students when they've practiced, like here, maybe some of you have practiced for a number of years and you're wondering how to bring your practice forward, that the Zen centers throughout the country will have two paths supported with resources that you can choose from, which is either the path of lay entrustment or the path of being ordained as a priest in Dharma transmission. So I wanted to just share my dream with you since I have an opportunity to do that. I was lay entrusted by Norman Fisher in 2005 with Sue Moon and Mick Sopko.

[08:38]

We studied together, we sewed together, we went to Mexico to a sangha there, and then we were on our own. Norman Fisher has a group called Everyday Zen, and within Everyday Zen, we who have been given lay entrustment can play many different roles. We can teach classes and have practice discussions, not give the precepts, but there are many other ways that we can function within Everyday Zen. My work in the world has been to find ways to offer... Zazen to people who don't have access to it, easy access to it. For many decades, I have offered Zazen at San Quentin and also to a number of jails in San Francisco. Also to people who are dying and their caregivers. I was one of the co-founders of the Zen Hospice Project and to now presently also to elders in a community near where I live.

[09:48]

I don't wear my rakasu when I teach. I don't wear my rakasu. I mention the Buddha once in a while. And what I have come to learn in these many decades of working in those three venues is that when a group of people sit zazen together over time, that the Buddha's teaching on suffering and the end of suffering arise on their own. And it's been such a heartwarming experience. to see that happen. I also have the opportunity to bring some of the formal ceremonies that I learned while living at Green Gulch, which I did for 10 years and also spent time at Tassajara. And by the way, I am forever grateful for that experience. What a gift it is to be able to come and live in a place like this or Green Gulch and be immersed in in the lineage and the teachings with such extraordinary teachers that it changed my life to be able to do that.

[10:53]

One of the things, one of the fond memories I have at one of the San Francisco jails, CJ5 in San Bruno, is having a traditional one-day sitting with 25 of the inmates there. And we had Kin Hin and Zazen in a Dharma talk. and practice discussions. We were all locked up in the same room all day. And at the end, we had tea. We bowed to each inmate and offered them tea and cookies. And one of the things we had to do about four days ahead of time was to bring all the equipment in so it could be x-rayed for weapons that we might be hiding in such things as teapots. But... And Wendy always, in our one-day sittings, makes a beautiful big flower arrangement, and of course she has a reputation of hiding weapons and flower arrangements. But everything was duly processed, and then we were able to continue and do that.

[12:03]

And that's a very moving experience to be able to bring that into the jails in that way. And I remember at the end of one... when we had served tea and served cookies and bowed to each one of them, a number of people had tears in their eyes for actually being treated in that way. And one of them said, well, I get it. I get it. It's all about slowing down and serving others. And I said, yeah, that's about it. That's about it. So I think that's all I have to say. As I say, I do so appreciate... having lived at Green Gulch for the time I did and having been given permission with Norman to start the Zen Hospice Project while I was there. I was shoe-sew there. So I've always sort of been in both worlds, the world of formal Zen and the world of being out in the world with prisoners and dying people and the old.

[13:06]

So thank you very much. I usually like to begin my Dharma talks by saying that when we chant an unsurpassed, penetrating and perfect Dharma is rarely met with, that's wrong. Not quite wrong. An unsurpassed, penetrating and perfect Dharma is everywhere and everyone. It's not that it's rare or inaccessible. It's just that we often fail to meet it. And lay practice is meeting that unsurpassed, penetrating and perfect dharma through every moment of your life. At least that's what my practice aspires to. So not anything that I or any of us say is anything special, except that

[14:15]

Everything's so wonderful. I thought I'd say a few things. A little different tack, rather than telling you what I'm doing now, tell you how I got here, because I struggled a good deal with wanting to be a priest and deciding not to. And I thought perhaps some of you might be in a similar situation. Back in 1972, I went to Japan. I lived in a Zen monastery there. very interested in becoming a priest, and I was very disillusioned with what I encountered there. And it actually sent me away from Zen for a while. Eventually I found my way, fortunately, and I'm very grateful, found it back at Berkeley Zen Center to my teacher, Sojin. And I talked to him about being a priest, and he said to me, well, you know, basically a priest says they're going to take care of a temple. That's what being a priest is.

[15:17]

And I thought to myself, that's not exactly what I'm interested in. I was married. I had two young children. I was working as a therapist, and I'd come to the Zendo, and it'd be wonderful, and I'd leave the Zendo, and all hell would break loose. And how could I carry my practice through the days of... working with my kids, being with my wife, driving on the freeway, being with my clients and my colleagues. And I really became interested in spreading the Dharma in places where people would not necessarily have heard of it or encounter it. And the clinic that I worked in, we had a lot of very fundamentalist Christian people there. And if I had talked in Buddhist terms, they would have just turned me off. So I had to find a way of talking what was at the heart of both of our practices.

[16:23]

And I knew that several of my friends said they'd come to a Zen center and they'd see priests and ceremonies and it was a turn-off for them, which I thought was kind of a shame. I do remember... being at a conference in Las Vegas and saying that the people at the one-armed bandits looked like they weren't enjoying themselves, and my friend, a non-Zen student, turning to me and saying, yeah, well, when you go into a Zen session, nobody looks like they're enjoying themselves either. I thought, well, that's too bad, actually. And I started thinking, what does a priest look like to others? Not necessarily what a priest is in our tradition. But in the Western tradition, priests are a go-between between the profane and the sacred. And you can't access the sacred except through a priest. And that's the Western tradition.

[17:27]

And I don't know any priest friend who feels that or believes that, but they can give the appearance of it. I mean, if only a priest can give the precepts or if only a priest can perform a service, what does that mean? When Bodhidharma says, in answer to the Emperor Wu, nothing holy, vast emptiness. Well, but we sometimes get a sense of what's holy, but how is it accessible and to whom and how do we bring that forth? And I started to see some of the dangers I think any institution with hierarchical structures has. And certainly throughout history you can see this in World War II in Japanese then. You can see it in some of the things we've had to deal with and which I bow to many people in this room who have done wonderful work in dealing with some of the difficulties and still being very aware of them.

[18:36]

There is that there, and so is there another path? And I kept looking for that. And my teacher, Sojin, was very gentle and kind and gave me room to keep exploring. I encountered the Tao, which is a little suspicious of teachers. It says, everyone has the mind as their teacher. The problem is they think they need to understand it first. Look to your own mind. And there's a wonderful verse in the Tao which says, the sage learns how to unlearn, teaches without teaching, just assists the self-becoming of all beings. I really like that. Just assist the self-becoming of all beings. A little different than saving beings. A little different from our usual vow.

[19:40]

Well, I kept practicing because I love Zen practice. And at a certain point, received lay entrustment from Sojin. And just shortly after that, there was a meeting of the Lay Zen Teachers Association of America, the first meeting about four years ago. And I went up there, not really... expecting much of anything and the people there were wonderful and they were very inspiring and I still didn't really want to get into teaching too much but a night or two after that I had an odd experience where I I woke up in the middle of the night and I had a kind of Kensho experience in which during this Kensho it went you're going to be a lay Zen teacher and I went I don't want to And the sort of Kensho went, doesn't matter whether you want to or not. This is your path. You need to do that. And so right now, I don't quite know where that path will take me and how, but it's a real interesting path with wonderful companions, both priest and non-priest along the way.

[20:55]

I guess I'm feeling right now that if I loved liturgy more, If I felt more connected to wanting to maintain the lineage, I would need to be a priest. But that's not where my action is right now. It's not where my passion is. My passion is the practice of Zen to help me appreciate each moment of my life. And I want to just end with a brief story which happened just a few days ago, which I debated about mentioning here. Maybe it'll give us stimulus for discussion. I was talking with a friend, a priest friend of mine, about Cobincino's death, which I hadn't known about how he died. And some of you might know that this very wonderful teacher, priest, saw his three-year-old, I believe, drowning in a pond. and ran in to save the child.

[21:56]

And unfortunately, both of them drowned. Very tragic. And my priest friend said, and you know, they found him with his arms wrapped around his child, and he was wearing his robes. And that was so wonderful that, you know, what an expression of priesthood to give your all. And I thought, well, that's very beautiful. That's how she saw it. But my first thought when I heard him that he was wearing his robes was, having been trained in lifesaving, the first thing that you do when you see someone drowning is you take your clothes off. And I thought, why didn't he take his clothes off? And I guess, you know, when he ran into the water, he was neither priest nor lay. He was a father trying to save his child. But I guess I also feel that sometimes to save a drowning child, you need to take your ropes off. And for me, that's my path.

[22:58]

Thank you very much. Good evening. It's really nice to be here with a few old friends and a lot of new faces. I actually started my practice in this very building. in about 1980. And it's something very familiar with the particular sounds of the bells and the smells and things. So it's nice to be here. I think that when I think about why I chose the lay I kind of think about how there was an inner prompting and a circumstance, there was an inner prompting aspect and a circumstantial aspect. I think that the inner prompting was just a kind of, I'm kind of a non-hierarchical person just by nature.

[24:04]

I'm kind of more horizontal, maybe to a fault. And so I didn't, I wasn't drawn to be involved in something that appeared to be somewhat about the hierarchy. I think that I had always hoped and wanted to have a family, and I was single, but I also felt that I just thought maybe I would, you know... that it would be nice not to feel torn, or that I might feel torn if I ordained as a priest and wanted to have a family. Also, that period of time that I did my first few years of practice, I spent time at Tassajara, and it was a time of great upheaval and uproar at Zen Center. So I think that also, that was more the circumstantial side that contributed to just, you know, not...

[25:07]

choosing to go down that road. And then I did end up getting married and moving to Berkeley Zen Center. And at that point, I was very relieved and happy that that situation had evolved in such a way that I could just keep up my sitting practice. That was kind of like what I was really happy about, that I was in a situation where... I could be supported to continue sitting practice as I raised my family. And Berkeley Zen Center is a very lay-oriented community. So there's just really a few priests and many, many lay people and many, many lay people who have been practicing for many, many years and are in positions of leadership in the sangha. So it felt very natural and... comfortable for me um to be there and you know we have quite a large group of what i don't know what you guys call we have senior students who are people who've been shoe sews in the community and we have a pretty large group of lay senior students there so you know i feel i'm always feeling like i'm in good company there and we have some priests too and and we're we're close i think one thing that i um

[26:28]

have been thinking about leading up to this evening is that I think that the relationship between ordained people and lay people in Buddhism is, I've kind of been thinking about it like a really long conversation. There's always been lay students. The Buddha had many, many lay students, and a number of Pali Sutras are about his encounters with lay students. and over the centuries, you know, I just, like I say, it's just like a long conversation, and it's gone in many different ways, and we're right in the middle of it right now, and it's a period of tremendous flux in many, many Zen communities, this issue of the lay, you know, how the lay people are sort of recognized, you could say, is... very much evolving. And so I think that we need to be able to find the words to say.

[27:35]

We need to find our place in the conversation and say the words that we have to say in that conversation. And at the same time, be aware that it's a very long conversation, which is never going to end, hopefully. And it'll just keep going through different changes and different... customs and styles I was just I just returned from a trip to India my first trip to India my husband's been going to India for several years and the people who we were visiting is an extremely large group of Buddhists in India they're not very well known they're called new Buddhists like we are in other words they're converted in the in the 20th century to Buddhism, like 50 million people. And it's an order, but it's a lay order. So, you know, I felt, again, in very good company there.

[28:39]

They have their little retreat centers. And during the time I was there, we also visited a Buddhist cave, which was like a basically... you could say, a retreat center from 2,000 years ago. And, you know, I just... Basically, we meditate, we bow, we chant, and we have Dharma talks. They did it 2,000 years ago. You could see that's what they were doing in this place, and we're still doing it. And so... It's a very nice family to be part of, and it's a very wonderful conversation to be engaged in. Good evening. I'm very happy to be here tonight with my Dharma friends and with you, and just to remember the deep pleasure of addressing you and being in dialogue with you just a short three weeks ago.

[29:46]

in considering the path of lay practice and how, for me, the question that comes up very naturally in considering this viable path of practice is how do I, as a practitioner, apply my love and commitment to the Buddha path, to the work I'm doing in the world? And after last session's talk here, my husband encouraged me to be a little bit more full and revealing in how that path has unfolded for me beyond the garden I know I emphasize the garden which is true but beyond that as an activist as a mother as a and I will say a person who has great appreciation for the world of art the capacity to write and to convey love and commitment to practice through writing how does that path go forth into the world given my training and so a huge amount of gratitude first of all to the Sangha that's made that investigation possible and that's each and every one of you huge amount of gratitude to the teachers that have really made possible the opportunity to look and many many many teachers and in particular how lovely to sit tonight with Laura at this end and just to recognize and acknowledge the

[31:16]

the deep work we've done with Linda Ruth Cutts and what an important person and guide she's been, along with many, many, many others. A lateral root system of teachers that have made possible multiple ways to practice. So huge amount of gratitude for that. And then for the depth-seeking charge that takes us out into the world. So for me, the path of lay practice has manifested in service. really in service and in responding to the call of the world, to the call of few. And in particular, in the last few years, there's been a very deep and persistent call for those of us that are grounded in meditation to offer our love and experience. So for me, in the last couple of years, really being called... as a practitioner, to speak without any insignia or marking, but with the full recognition that I've had 42 years of training within the context of Zen practice as a lay person and as an organic grower, to speak about the ethics of living in these times, growing food, working with other causes and conditions that are alive and somewhat problematic right now.

[32:36]

So working... with the ethics of farming. What actually happens when you grow food and you engage in growing food? What are the difficulties that come up? And how do we bridge the gaps and the concerns that we have? Many, many of the people that I work with are exhausted, exhausted environmental activists. And that's a real concern. And a question that comes up perpetually, perennially, and with real... truth charge is, how do I maintain my life and commitment to protecting the natural world and not be so worn out? So in every case, when I have the privilege of sitting in circle with other practitioners, and I think of the people that I sit with as practitioners, the question comes up, how do I maintain my life force and my love for the work without being exhausted? What are the sources that give me replenishment? So the great privilege of having been able and being invited to travel to New Mexico to work with friends at Upaya Zen Center, Vallecitos Mountain Refuge, where many other practitioners in this room have also worked, to work in central Vermont with a group that convenes every summer of exhausted environmental activists who are given the gift of one week of practice and

[33:57]

one week of silence and reflection to actually think, how do I go back to my job in the Nature Conservancy working against genetic modification, working to protect salmon in the rivers of this country? How do I go back to that work refreshed and with capacity? And I think that for me the training, the magnificent, simple, deep training at Zen Center has been extraordinarily important. And often in these different venues, I'm invited to just offer the awareness practice, non-denominational, grounded awareness practice, what really helps. And I'm so grateful for my training. I rarely think about why I'm not a priest or why I'm a layperson. I just feel this upwelling of gratitude and the call to serve and to... as Michael Katz, who's a deep friend and the agent for the garden book said, find a way to apply Zen practice to the questions of the world.

[35:06]

And we're all doing that in whatever way we can. But I think in particular, being out in the world and being asked to offer basic awareness training, very much like what Martha was describing, without insignia, without identification, always, I claim my training. with great pride and gratitude. But then, how do we go deeper than that and actually settle so that we can meet the call of the world in the work we're doing? So I think tonight I just sit here with a huge amount of gratitude for the multiple ways we practice. And for the opportunity to sit and to be seen and to have the opportunity now to transition with you and to be in dialogue about the different ways and different paths of practice. I do want to also say how important the path of art is and creativity. Because that is also an access point.

[36:06]

And my experience from the very first... Beginning of practice in 1971 was Son Nakagawa Roshi, who was a Zen poet and a calligrapher. The importance of the beauty of art that infuses meditation practice was very powerful for me. Provocative and grounding and revelatory. So I'm immensely grateful, not only for the opportunity to grow good food, in the context of meditation, but also for the gift of art. Life is short, art is long. And so what is the art of how we apply our practice to the call of the world? What is that artful way that we adapt, apply, and meet each other? Those are some of the questions that animate my life and practice and make it such a pleasure to be invited to speak. and to reflect together. So thank you very much, everybody, for making this evening, and particularly, again, to Abbas, Christina, and the friends, and to Abiding Central Abbot, Mjogan, Steve Stuckey, and every single person and being human and more than human in this room that has given us the opportunity to taste the truth of the practice that we love and know.

[37:32]

So we have an opportunity. We have close to 20 minutes, a little bit longer to be in dialogue. And just to ask you, what would you like to bring up? You can either address, you can address to any one of us, or we can be in dialogue, not even going through the panel that's here. So what's rising up for you? What questions want to be heard nice and loud so that we can hear? Please. It made me think that as you were all speaking, it seems as though a late lineage is arising. And I'm just curious to hear from all of you how you see that unfolding in the next couple of decades, or how you'd like to see it unfold. I got some comments in the beginning of the introductions that it would bring into the second board if you'd like to add.

[38:38]

This could be a good place for that. This is a topic which comes up a lot in the Lay Zen Teachers Association meetings, which, just a little bit of background, it's not restricted to the Soto Zen teachers. We have people from the Open Mind, the Charlotte Joko Beck tradition from the Maezumi Roshi tradition from some Korean traditions Vietnamese traditions so there's about 65 of us right now and the different traditions vary according to how the lineage is passed on and there's been some concern about that Personally, I'm not too worried about it.

[39:43]

They've always been lay practitioners, and the Dharma seems to go along pretty well. But in terms of who can transmit how, these are big questions. I was speaking with Sojin at one point, and I said to him, well, it really makes sense to me that, you know, shouldn't give dharma transmission. I'm not a priest. How could I give dharma transmission? But what about if I have a student and they've been there for a long time and they've done a lot of good training and it's time for them to become a teacher. Does it really make sense for a priest to give transmission to a lay teacher? If I've been their teacher, maybe I should be able to entrust a lay teacher teacher. And he said, well, that might happen someday. Sojin's way is very much not so much a rule, but let's see what happens and what the situation calls for.

[40:52]

And I kind of like that myself. But some people are trying to develop very specific modes of transmission and modes of study. and questions of student-teacher relationships and what is involved. Some of the lay teachers from Dharma Reign, for example, in Portland, if you want to be a student of theirs, you have to ask three times. You'll be turned down the first two times. Very traditional. And then it's a real apprenticeship. So we're all exploring it. I don't have any answers for you, but it's going to be very interesting, and I figure it'll take a few hundred years to work itself out. Anyone else on the panel want to talk about? So let's see what other questions are up there.

[41:56]

All right. If you don't mind, go ahead, because I noticed you. And then we'll really move through quickly. Yeah. There are two things that I'm wondering about. One, all of you, it sounds like, spent an extensive period of time, either at task power or legal, so kind of like, out for work. And I'm wondering if that, if you feel like, in order to be in a position of teaching others, you need to go there. Well, my second thing is, Being here, people come to you, wanting to know, whereas if you're not in this structure, you have to, like, go get people. And in terms of, like, sharing that or wanting to explain it or help people to get to it, you know, there's, like, benefits. Like, I'm just curious about that. I think if it's all right, I'd just like to say Martha brought some of the criterion that we, did you bring it in?

[43:01]

Their first question is a primary question, so I think it would be great to answer that. Is that interesting? What are the requirements to become a lay-entrusted teacher? And also the noticing that many of us have had extensive years of training and the entrustment doesn't follow years of training and if so, how so? So my understanding, and you can all, I think we all... had the same requirements, is that we've been chuseau and that we have done years of training, either at one place or another, that I don't think there's a requirement to actually have been at Tassajara anymore. And what others, chuseau, that we are recognized as potential teachers. We have taught in some kind of venue or other. I think that's basically it. In years of training, someone can't come for a year and then get lay entrustment.

[44:08]

We've been around a long time. We've done machines and numerous machines. I would say also it's a reflection of our relationship with our teacher. Oh, that's true. So a deep, long-standing relationship and study with a teacher, facing one another over many years. I think also for many of us, it's clear that we haven't directed ourselves toward ordaining as priests. And so there's a natural upwelling of interest in wanting to affirm steady years of practice and being in the world and serving and learning and being in community as a viable, trustworthy model. And, of course, that includes the clear understanding that we are completely able, if called upon, to set up a group, to have our own groups, and to teach freely and with the trust and affirmation of those we've been working with.

[45:14]

And it's also clearly understood that we don't lead formal groups. practice, we don't do the jobs that a priest does, and I won't go into it, but you know, I think you know what I'm talking about, that we are very much so invited to serve and to lead and to train and to share our love and appreciation of the practice. Could I address the second piece of the question? Sure. About will people come to you and how do you reach people and whatnot? Yes. First of all, you're all teachers and you all have the opportunity to do that. All you have to do when you're in a checkout line and you see the person who's checking out is tired, smile at them and say, how are you doing? Very simple. But I'm reminded how the people at my work knew that I practiced, but I tried to keep it light. But when I retired after many years at Kaiser and my boss stood up to say, you know, the speech, he didn't talk about what programs I started and how I taught this and how I taught that.

[46:26]

He said, you know, the main thing I remember is that we were in a meeting one time and somebody said, well, you know, I have a problem with you, with me, when you do X, Y, and Z. And Bob said, oh, you know, thank you for telling me. Could you help me out with that by just letting me know when I do it? And let's see if we can work it out together. And he said, you know, it was so strange to somebody who wasn't being defensive and was just kind of, that's practice. And you don't have to say, this is Buddhist practice. You just show it. And people absorb it. And it's every day. It's simple. And none of those people would say, oh, you're my teacher. But maybe they got something. There's a question from Blanche. I notice that those of you who have received lay teachers, trust me, are people who practice and took their practice outside of the

[47:40]

institution that they were practicing in into their daily life and into the world. I mean, I just noticed that about the people I know who would become later chosen. And I think that's a particular aspect that you all have in common that we should notice. And of course, all of us can do that. That's what I just said. But what others do, you have. I also think there's kind of a gut reaction sometimes. For me, it was like when I was living at Green Gulch, I was asked if I would consider being a priest. And I said rather rudely, no. And they asked if I would take 24 hours to think about it. And I said, I don't need it.

[48:41]

but that was me that was something that really knew where I wanted to be with my practice so I think those kinds of questions come up and they're often answered from a very gut level and other times it's very difficult to really know what path you want to choose but I'm just delighted that the lay and trust path is here among us and is being strengthened You have a question? I'd say that, too. And one is sort of in response to Lance. And I've been wondering, and Martha, I know that you're involved with Norman's song. And could you maybe talk a little bit about the, it sounds like they're saying that if you want to take the practice outside, you have to stay at a late person. And I don't think that that's true. And I think that Norman's song in particular really stresses that. And then also that if you want to be a priest, you can be a priest and take it outside. Yeah.

[49:42]

But the other thing, the other question I have is to the people who are teaching and sort of taking meditation and Buddhist teachings outside of the context of the religion of Buddhism. And how do you avoid the labor of appropriation and co-optivity? you not lose some of the other stuff that happened when they stay in context. You know, there's more to it than just medication. And when it's in context, it gets a full experience. I wonder how you maintain that full experience when you're taking it out of context. So that's questions. Two totally separate questions for baby. I can now defer. address the first and I actually don't do that myself so the second part I won't answer but I think it's sort of a nice idea that the priests are facing in and the lay people are facing out or something and we're back to back and supporting each other but really in practice it's really I don't think it's landed yet I just think we have to be aware that even

[51:01]

Even being married and having children as a priest is really, really new, you know. And so all these things, you know, I mean, are just really in a state of evolution. And so people, I think we just have to remember that each person is trying to find the path that makes sense to them. And this is what we've ended up with, you know. So that's... I think... I appreciate those questions. I think they're really, really important. And basically I'm in agreement with you that those are tricky. I do think there's a difference between working from the outside in and working from the inside out. And just as you have a dream of seeing equal paths, I've often thought it would be very helpful for at least a center like Berkeley Zen Center, where we have many lay practitioners, to have a head of practice who's a priest and a head of practice who's a lay person.

[52:05]

So, for example, one of Sojin's teachings, very, very helpful, is you can move quickly but don't rush. Never rush. To which I've said to him, you haven't worked at Kaiser. It's just not possible. With 40 years of practice, I sometimes had to rush. I mean, you did not have time to go to the bathroom. Literally. It was just that kind of environment. And how do you practice in that environment? And many people are in that situation in the real world. So it's very useful to have the priest who has... There's moving within stillness and stillness within moving. And I think the two paths have slightly different emphases. In terms of context, big question. I actually wrote an article on basically critiquing the use of mindfulness as a technique and how important it is to understand that if you look at the Satipatthana Sutra,

[53:19]

You know, the practice of mindfulness is meant to deconstruct the ego, not to reinforce it. And mindfulness-based stress reduction, et cetera, and my sister teaches this, and it's wonderful, and it's great, and it gets watered down. And what happens when you take it out of the religious context? But if, for example, if you really plunge deeply into mind and no mind, It's freeing. There's a way, Dogen said, finding your place, when you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point. In many ways, Zen practice is bringing as little as possible to that place and finding that place is you. You're not it. It actually is you.

[54:20]

And then the context, yes, it's everything, but there's no such thing as a Buddhist context in a certain sense. You know, the Diamond Sangha says, they're just names. They're just names. And yes, we need names. But we also need to go beyond names. And you need to have both. And this is why it takes a lot of training and practice. But there is a way of doing it, but it's hard to verbalize, but you don't want to bolderize. I agree, it's a danger. It's a danger, and you have to be careful. Let's see if there are other questions that want to come up. You had one, and then in the back. This might be kind of a general question, but I'm wondering how all of you need authority in your practice, and I mean that both in kind of hierarchical, sense, maybe in our organization or civil organizations, but also meaning in your own lives as parents, as teachers in your professions, how you need authority of the institutions that you work in, work with, how does it get to you?

[55:33]

That's my question. You know, I've had some interesting experiences, especially inside San Quentin, with that. Not so much, I mean, I personally have had some, but what I've witnessed is a tremendous amount of anger in the inmates against authority because many of the people who are in authority there can be quite brutal physically and verbally abusive. And what's interesting practice for me as a teacher and for the men has been to find out or to question What's the life like of that person that just hit you or said something abusive to you? You know, to somehow be able to turn towards that person who's behaving in a way that is unconscionable sometimes and say, how did he get there? What was his background like?

[56:36]

Is he a happy man, do you think? I mean, that questioning of... can be quite eye-opening, I think. It doesn't detract from the fact that it's a brutal system and people are made brutal by it. But it's that looking at the causes and conditions that we have come to make a central part of our practice, the karmic life of a guard that has to act in that way. Authenticity. is authority. You've recognized it, and it gives its own power. Very helpful, a gift.

[57:40]

I think there was another question in the back, please. It seems like there's an emphasis on really appreciating signlessness, formlessness, and not, you know, wearing the uniform. So I'm thinking, you know, looking to the long view across the evolutionary history here, it seems like one possible destination that's tended to is the thing which I understand some senators have done and really letting go of all the images, you know, places that don't have an altar, that don't have really anything explicitly Zen or even Buddhist. And so I'm wondering if you think that is sort of where it may be at, what you think about that kind of destination, and how that relates to sort of the importance of your experience in places like Tassahara, where there is so much of that. Well, this connects very much to the question that

[58:43]

It was asked over here, and I know in my case, working with the Trust for Public Land in particular, I'm remembering what it was like to work with 25 members from the Trust for Public Land, and the call was, offer us a chance to be more aware of how we're living. We have seven days together. We want to look more deeply at the institution, and in order to do that, we need some kind of grounding practice that will help us be able to access... the deeper questions. And if it becomes a religious matter, you'll lose some of these very intelligent, high-powered people that are saving thousands and thousands of acres of land. So that's a beautiful call to apply practice and to do it wholeheartedly without turning away from what your training is, where you're coming from. But what are the elements of awareness? What are the elements that give us life and the opportunity for some breathing room? And just so familiarity and willingness to be quiet, to know the breath in the body.

[59:52]

All of the training we had, we could say it's a dilution of our training, but for me, it's a widening, it's an expansion, it's an opportunity to find how deeply training lodges in every single moment if we can give ourselves enough breathing room to really meet and to apply our training. and to do it wholeheartedly and carefully and to know we're not an azenda. We're not with practitioners that are coming for a sesheen or for a training period, and yet. And sometimes it's very helpful to have a sense of humor. I noticed working with the Trust for Public Land folks, every single one of them when I open my... When I opened up my half-lidded eyes and looked out, every single one of them was thinking. I knew that. Chins were up and I thought, they're thinking of how to save the 9,000 acres in Colorado. And then we would say to them, luckily, teaching in tandem, too, is very helpful. So I think it's really important out in the world to have a team and to work with a team.

[60:57]

So I don't like to do this alone. So at Upaya Zen Center teaching with Natalie Goldberg, we can... play with each other. Look, we both have years of training in the Zen world and then the call to apply writing and Zen practice. So when you do that and when you're in tandem with another friend or the work that I've been privileged to be able to do with Martha out in the world in whatever way it is, somehow to be in connection with another practitioner is really, really helpful. I'd like to say, too, that there's a lot of energy right now bringing mindfulness into the schools. And for obvious reasons, you know, we can't call that Buddhism. But to see a third grader just hear a bell and come to an upright position and take three breaths or to become mindful of sounds around them, they don't get that opportunity in the world very much and certainly less and less in their families.

[61:59]

I'm finding in very many... I work at a kind of a privileged school, but many of those children don't eat with their parents. And so, you know, I heard the word co-option earlier, but, you know, to offer this gift to children so that they can find this calm, still place within themselves, a refuge within themselves, that they're not finding other places in the world, I think is so valuable. And... It could be that later some of them come to Buddhism without even knowing that this practice was something that was given to them without a label when they were very young. Children are so hungry for silence and stillness. They'll resist it like crazy at first, but it's very touching to see rambunctious kids just take a moment. And I tell my own students... We ask so much of you. We ask you to create and achieve and do math problems and show your work. Now I'm asking you just to stop and just be for just a moment.

[63:03]

And they learn to do that, and they really do appreciate it. You know, I've noticed many children who grew up at Zen Center, we've always been very hesitant to indoctrinate them into Buddhism, but they sort of grew up steeped in it, and many of them have come to practice as adults. Willingly. Rather than, you know, being indoctrinated at a young age. But they knew there was something special about this place. And as adults, they've come to it through their own inner work. I just want to add to Alex. I couldn't tell if you were saying that maybe the forms would fade away completely and we'd only have a non-representational. I mean, that's not what I'm hoping for. I mean, I hope that those of us who want to be like, you know, you might say white bird in the snow or something and be in the world, would be able to come back to Tassajara or do retreats. And, you know, I guess if it got to where nobody wanted to keep that going, I might have to reconsider, you know, whether maybe, well, maybe I do want to keep that going.

[64:12]

But it seems like for right now, there's people who want to keep it going. And that's a place where... where we're a team, you know? You can also trust the forms. There's a reason we sit like this. It works. Our bodies and minds align in this form. It's not something artificial. And so the living forms will always be teaching us, and they'll always be there. And then the other forms, I mean, I happen to like wearing this and I happen to like having some of the images. But the form that exists beyond form and formlessness will always be accessible and will find it. And it's one of the reasons I'm so grateful for this practice.

[65:16]

I wonder if there's been any struggle in terms of Zen Center, or Berkeley Zen Center, in terms of your feeling empowered and respected and pressured for your practice, your practice and what you offer. Is there a feeling, well, of not being appreciated or respected or, you know, by priests or leadership. I'm just wondering if it took a while for this land investment act to be available. Could I just say that just you're asking that question is a kind of gift, and I'm sure we've had different experiences with that. I just have to say that my teacher, Eijun, saw something in me that I couldn't see in myself.

[66:27]

And I remember when she asked me if I wanted to be Shuso, I said, well, I sort of like just being a person of no rank. And she said, well, as soon as you start talking about being a person of no rank, you're talking about rank. So I very, you know, I wouldn't have been Shuso if she hadn't asked me to be Shuso. So it was this process of being asked. But I like the tender way you asked that question, and I would say I have felt a deep heart-to-heart connection with so many people here, and I do feel encouraged and recognized in a beautiful way. So I think maybe we've had different experiences with that, but thank you very much for asking that question. I would like to just reflect back a little about 10 years ago. Some of us were asked to teach at Green Gulch a class called Buddhism Behind Bars. And I felt really so happy to be able to contribute to that.

[67:30]

And some ex-prisoners came with me to teach. And I would like to encourage more of that. And I think each one of us represents some kind of line of thought, whether it's Wendy or... each doing something different, that we have something to offer as lay people. And there were two or three years there where I felt there was a big opening for people who were lay practitioners to come and teach. And it's very fruitful. And it may still be happening, but I'm perhaps not as aware of it as I should be. Well, there are issues that we will need to work with each other. I certainly don't feel second-classed. I feel supported. You know, Sojin wrote the foreword for a forthcoming book I've got coming out, encourages my teaching at Houston Zen Center, and I'm going off to start my own, not my own, but start a practice place up in the Twain Heart Sonora area, and he supports me in that.

[68:39]

One of the big issues has to do with giving the precepts. And right now I'm in agreement with Sojin that if this center works and if people are studying and if they want to take the precepts, I'll invite Sojin to come and we'll give the precepts together and I think that will be wonderful. But what happens if Sojin's not around or when he's not around and when he dies and does it make sense then a lay-entrusted teacher to call on a priest who they may not know to, quote, validate the precepts? Or can a lay-entrusted teacher give the precepts? Right now, that's a sort of no. It's a definite no in the Soto Zen lineage. And, you know, there's various ways of dealing with that. Maybe I need to go and, like, Wendy did and got authorization to a different lineage.

[69:44]

One option. Maybe something will be worked out within Soto's end. So I don't want to paper over the fact that there are issues, but basically we love each other. We support each other and it's wonderful. And we feel tremendous gratitude. each other. And it's wonderful to support the practice and see where it's going. I'd like to say thank you for your question, Tova. I feel very much the way what Laura expressed. For me, one of the most difficult aspects of practicing in the world is I very much miss living in community. That was very important. That is a very important... Part of my life, I feel like I am a communal person, a person that manifests with a lateral root system that does best in community. But also, if people like me don't move out, then the next generation cannot come in.

[70:52]

And I understand that. And sometimes I'm a little sad that... very strong practitioners who live one rung out or one circle out aren't always seen as being able to participate because there are so many practitioners within the Sangha that are in residence and are training to take the next jobs. Sometimes it's appropriate for those of us who are a little less visible to be included and brought in. And I think that's important to say. So I have noticed... that as a source of suffering. Suffering is a little strong, but I notice that. Yeah, it hurts sometimes. But what's really wonderful is the question. Thank you, and we're very strong. I think all of us together. And it is late. We're past time. Any one more question? I always said breaking the rules.

[71:56]

The Tao says do less and do less until there's nothing that is not done. Thank you very much for welcoming us. Thank you so much. For this evening. Any of us would be happy to be on email or whatever, phone, whatever. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma talks are offered at no cost, and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving. May we fully enjoy the Dharma.

[72:44]

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