This podcast is offered by San Francisco's Zen Center on the web at sfcc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good morning. My name is Mark Lesser. I'm really very happy to be here. How many people are here for the first time? Raise your hand if you're here for the first time. Great. Welcome to Zen Center. How about how many people are here for more than 20 years? Welcome. You're just as welcome. I've had two possible titles for this talk. One is Pain and Possibility. That's often the work that I do teaching mindfulness and meditation in the business world.

[01:08]

People often ask, why do people work with you? And my response is that I could answer that in two words, pain and possibility. I'll talk more about that. The other possible title for this talk, I've been influenced a lot by... reading Michael Pollan's new book called How to Change Your Mind. The other possible title for this talk is How to Change Your Mind Without Drugs. I don't have anything against drugs, but I think that I'll talk more about that as well. I'm amazed at how sensitive we all are to this realm of pain and possibility. Even as I was walking into the building, I met an old friend who, and it was really, really sweet to see her.

[02:18]

And I said, oh, you know, it's great to see you. And then she mentioned that she was here to go to another event. But if things didn't work out, she would come to my talk. And I immediately thought, oh, so I'm the booby prize, okay. But at the same time, I noticed there was a tinge of pain there. And at the same time, I feel this incredible sense of possibility. The fact that I feel this great... kind of honor and challenge and to be able to talk, to be able to offer whatever it might be that I can offer. So it's interesting how sensitive we are to those pains and possibilities of being in this human body and human mind.

[03:20]

I want to tell a short story, a little parable. Some of you are probably familiar with it, but I think I'll give it a slightly different interpretation. It's a story about three bricklayers. These three guys happen to be lying bricks. And another person comes up to each of them, comes up to the first person and says, what are you doing? And he says, I'm just putting bricks on the wall. I'm laying bricks. And he goes to the second bricklayer and says, what are you doing? And he says, I'm supporting my family. I'm putting these bricks here too in order to support my family. And the person goes to the third bricklayer and says, and what are you doing? And he says, I'm in a conversation with God because I'm building a church. I'm putting bricks up in something that will become a church.

[04:24]

And I want to kind of use this little parable as, I think that's what we are doing, or at least that's my sense of what we're doing in our sitting practice. So the core practice that's happening here in Zen and at the Zen Center is sitting, or meditation, or zazen, whatever you might want to call it. And I think in some way... And it's happening, and the way that I understand it being held and taught is that in a way, we're practicing at all three of those levels. So on one sense, we're sitting to just, we're just sitting. We're just noticing body, mind. I think in some of that pain and possibility might be even in that first bricklayer, just noticing what's happening. The second level is the level of intention, that this bricklayer is supporting his or her family.

[05:36]

I think we sit for all kinds of reasons. We sit because we want to change in some way. We want to reduce our stress, or we want to be more satisfied or happier. We want to help other people. We want to improve our... communication skills. So there might be many reasons, intentions for why we sit. And the third is in a way we sit to have an experience outside of anything that is particularly It's more like having a mystical experience, more like forgetting everything, more like not needing anything in that moment and being, whether you call it experiencing one's own Buddha nature, expressing your own true nature.

[06:49]

Dogen calls it the composure and bliss just by taking this posture. So there is a level of where this practice is something mystical, something unexplainable, a kind of complete selflessness. And I think we are doing all three of those things at almost any time we are sitting and doing this practice. And I would also then kind of add on to that, that I think this is our practice as human beings out in the world as well, that we're also noticing what's happening. We're being hopefully present in the moment, paying attention. We also have some intention, often many intentions.

[07:51]

I often think of... almost everything we do has maybe some wholesome intention and maybe less than wholesome intention. You know, as an example, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm working on a book right now and people say, why, why are you writing a book? And my most wholesome reason is there's something in me that wants to be expressed, right? It's a little, I feel there's a part of me that's a, that feeling of like an artist, that there's something that needs to be expressed and that's coming through me, and my job is to get out of the way and allow that. Then there's many other, like, oh, I'm writing this book. This book is going to be a marketing tool for me. There's all these what feels like less than wholesome reasons for not only writing a book, but for many things that

[08:53]

that I do, that we do. And then there's the third, the third part of our lives, this sense of this more kind of mystical, more mystical part of being a human being, this part of touching something bigger than us. So it's interesting in the... In Michael Pollan's book, How to Change Your Mind, he talks quite a bit about there's a part of the brain that scientists are calling now the default mode network. And there's actually lots of interesting studies about how... In fact, a study that was done at Harvard several years ago said that... the average American person was in this default mode network state about half of the time, meaning about half of the time we are not actually doing what we're doing.

[10:06]

We are worrying about the future or ruminating about the past or in some way not present. And it's thought that meditation and drugs, both seem to loosen this default mode network enough so that we can see more of what is, more of what's real, and not be distracted by this habit or this part of us that has evolved to... As I say that, I'm also thinking of the other book that's influencing me a lot right now is a book called... Why Buddhism is True. And I think it's really interesting, these two books, Why Buddhism is True and How to Change Your Mind. Why Buddhism is True makes a strong case for that we've evolved as human beings not to see clearly, not to see what is, but to survive.

[11:12]

Essentially, to pass on our genes to the next generation. So therefore, we... We worry and ruminate because it keeps us safe. It keeps us safe to be worrying about the future and ruminating about the past. I think I've probably said this once before here, that one of my Google scientist friends likes to say that we are descendants of the nervous apes. The apes that were chill and calm, they all got killed. And this is over thousands or hundreds of thousands of years as humans has developed. So lucky us, we have this way that we are kind of scanning for threats. A little bit, like in some way, I think, as I described, even my own hearing from someone that they're not here to see me, right?

[12:15]

In some way, this is a kind of a, in a very minor way, but there's a way that I could feel my own kind of scanning for what's not working, what's not serving me, and to notice that and to let it go. So I think one of the things that's interesting is how all three of these so-called three bricklayers are interconnected. And how one of the things that I love about Zen practice is that bricklayer number one, which is just pay attention to what you're doing, is also a way of accessing the mystical, accessing this place where we can let go of this default mode network and be more with what is. I recently...

[13:18]

had the great privilege of doing a three-month practice period at Tassajara. And it's pretty amazing and wonderful. And Paul, I don't think I've told you this story about something that this was something that happened in my own world. So it was toward the end of this 90-day practice period. I think it was very close to the end. We were doing a full moon ceremony. in the evening. And probably about eight o'clock at night, which for Tassahara is late, given that the wake up bell is at 3.50 a.m. So eight o'clock is like late at night. And I remember walking into the ceremony and I was standing there. I actually had, I was like right in front and the bells are ringing, waiting for the ceremony to begin. And the conversation that I was having with myself was, I probably could have gotten out of being here.

[14:22]

I'm tired. I'm grumpy. We just had one of these ceremonies a month ago. In fact, this was the second one this month, March. There was a full moon ceremony. And I was having this conversation. The bells are going. And... And the bells stop, and the woman, Helena, who was the person who was kind of leading the ceremony, kind of just belts out all my ancient twisted karma from beginningless greed, hate, and delusion, born through body, speech, and mind, I now fully avow. But actually, as soon as she said, as soon as her voice was just, like, beautiful, she was so... she was being so present and giving and loving. I could feel she was like putting everything she had into her singing, into her chanting. And in that moment, my mind, my state of mind went from, I should have gotten out of this to, wow.

[15:32]

Like, and it just, I thought, this is like being in the Philharmonic, like being at some great opera. And I'm, I'm three feet from the main singer and I'm in the chorus because all of us are part of chanting. And so both this feeling, this shift for me from pain to possibility, I think through just kind of paying attention and to appreciating what is in that moment, just being present for what is. In Zen practice, there's a lot of attention paid to the details of how we lay bricks. And that whether it's in the kitchen or the way the altar is set up or the way that these robes are sewn, there's a tremendous amount of attention paid to caring for the details of our lives.

[16:37]

And in a sense, without any... particular motivation other than to express our love, express our care. But I think doing that makes us a lot like this second bricklayer in that it also brings up that we have the intention and the intention of being present, the intention to do things in a more loving, caring way, which I think is also connected to this third bricklayer, this part of just expressing our own true nature, our own Buddha nature, our own person nature, this selflessness. And every once in a while, maybe there is some, whether it's in zazen practice or in just being with another person, making eye contact with someone, there's some

[17:39]

There's some aha moment. And maybe it's a small aha. Maybe it's just feeling a little bit of appreciation. But noticing wherever that is on the scale of dropping our own default mode network and giving our attention over to what's working, what is really working. And so to bring this back to meditation practice, in some way, one of the ways that I like to practice or teach when I'm teaching people about what meditation is, and again, this works, I think, for whether you're new or whether you've been sitting for a lifetime. In some way, I think we're cultivating what I think of as three kind of basic needs. we're cultivating a need to feel safe, that we need to feel a sense of safety.

[18:47]

And it's interesting. So like right now, we are all okay. And this is no small thing. And this is not true in a lot of places in the world and in a lot of different environments. And it's even possible that we have spent so much time cultivating that we're not okay. or that we think that there's some threat no matter where we are, to be able to practice with, right now, we're okay. Right now, I think. I hope. And to actually remember that. And this word that's become so popular today, mindfulness, literally means to remember. And I think in part, it's like remembering... that right now we're okay. Also, feeling and noticing that right now there's nothing lacking. There's nothing, like we don't, you know, we don't need anything right now.

[19:52]

So the second clear need that we have is around satisfaction, right? To not be craving. And... And to cultivate in our sitting practice that as we sit down, I'm safe right now. Right now, I don't need anything. And the third basic need is of a connection. That we need to feel that we belong. We need to feel that we're part of something. And I think this is a kind of a very kind of radical practice in Zen is to to assume and cultivate a sense of belonging and a sense that when we sit, again, of course, I may be sitting with some intention.

[20:52]

I may be sitting as the first and second bricklayer. But I'm also sitting to support other people's sitting. And I can feel that other people are sitting to support my sitting. And there's something... very simple and very, I think, radical about that practice and cultivating those senses of safety, of satisfaction, and of connection and belonging. One of the things that I was doing, I don't like to rush in the mornings, so At Tassahara, I was getting up 20 or 30 minutes before the 3.50 wake-up bell, and it gave me time to read every morning, which I loved. And I was reading these unedited Suzuki Rishi talks, which they give you a real... I felt like I was getting to know this person who I've been reading his talks and feeling like he's one of my...

[22:08]

core teachers for these past 40 years, but something about these unedited talks where they describe when he laughs and motions. But one of the things that I was just thinking was, in one of the talks, and I think it was a talk he gave here, maybe six months or eight months before he died, he looks out at people and says, you think I'm the mystic, but no, you're all the mystics. Because you, you know, he says about himself that he's just seeing things as they are. He's living in the sense of a kind of reality, and everyone else is in these made-up worlds, like the world that I was making up about this person making it that I wasn't her first priority, or all the things that we can easily make up that are generally in reference to I and me and mine. And... Yeah, so how do we practice, especially in this third realm, this realm of the third bricklayer or this more mystical sense?

[23:19]

So I think it is about cultivating these three practices of safety, satisfaction, and connection. Also, one of the things that is read and chanted every day here in this temple and at every Zen temple is the Heart Sutra, or a kind of this poem, this essay that over and over again says that everything that we think about self is a mirage, doesn't really exist, right? That it talks about, it breaks down self as form, feelings, perceptions, formations, and consciousness, and says these things exist and they don't exist. And this also, I think, in Zen practice, this sense of even questioning everything.

[24:26]

One of my favorite paradoxes is be confident and question everything. And that it takes a kind of... confidence to not know, to not make assumptions. And I want to read something. This is from Zen Mind Beginner's Mind. A little bit that Suzuki Roshi has to say about this practice of not knowing. He says, as long as we have some definite idea about or some hope in the future, we cannot really be serious. with the moment that exists right now. You may say, I can do it tomorrow or next year, believing that something exists today will exist tomorrow. Even though you're not trying so hard, you expect that some promising thing will come as long as you follow a certain way. But there's no certain way that exists permanently.

[25:30]

Moment after moment, we have to find our own way. Each of us must make his own true way, and when we do, they will express the universal way. This is the mystery. Well, one of the things that I often do when I give talks here, which is not that often, is I get people talking to each other. which I was thinking I wasn't going to do today. But I think I am. I don't think I can resist. So how about, without saying anything, turn to someone next to you, or ideally, yeah, just turn to someone next to you, without saying anything. And if you're, yeah, just find a person. And if you don't have a person, raise your hand so that you can find each other if you're... And I'm going to need some help from the Doan here to ring the bell.

[26:45]

So let's try something. I want to suggest if you have great resistance to this, great. Notice your resistance. If this is a good thing... For you, great. So let's have one person speak for two and a half whole minutes. And then the other person, and the person who's listening, is just going to listen, isn't going to ask questions, won't interrupt. By the way, for you millions of people at home, If you're with someone, you can do it. And if you're not, you can journal. You can journal these questions that I'm about to suggest. So one person is speaking. The other person is listening. So we're practicing listening here. If you're listening, you don't have to sit there like a stone. You can respond with your own expressions, but don't overdo it.

[27:50]

And if you're the person speaking, I want to suggest that you... Maybe be willing to surprise yourself with what you say. Often we say the same things over and over again. You might have noticed that. Most of us are pretty boring. And imagine surprising yourself. So whatever risk you feel like taking, but see how that is. We're practicing speaking here as well. And then we'll switch. So the suggested topic is how do these three... In a way, what I'm talking about here are three ways of being. Three ways of being. One is doing what you're doing, way of being. The second is having some intention. And the third is some kind of mystical, unexplainable, mysterious way of being. Kind of a radical kind of not knowing.

[28:53]

A radical connection. Whatever that kind of more... mystical, sense of oneness, sense of wonder, whatever that is for you. So three ways of being. How do those three ways of being play out for you in your life? Or not? That's the suggested topic. The second possible topic, whatever you want to talk about, you won't get this gift very often of having a whole two and a half minutes of someone else's undivided attention. And if you're the person listening, really just give yourself over. Don't be preparing for what you're going to say. If you notice you're distracted, notice and come back. It's a little bit like a meditation practice, this practice of listening. Okay? Yes, question? You need a partner. Great.

[29:55]

And if there's one three, that's okay. We'll work that out. Yeah, go join each other. Go ahead. You have my permission to stand. All right. So in a moment... Oh, the other thing I want to mention. You need to get close and speak as quietly as possible so the other person can hear you, so that people aren't all screaming in this room. And in two and a half minutes, I'm going to ring a bell. And then we'll switch and the other person will go. Only other thing I want to say is if you've already prepared what you're going to say, forget about it. And clearly the person who should go first is the person with the shorter hair in your group. And so you short-haired person? Go, and I'll ring a bell in two and a half minutes.

[30:57]

Go ahead. All right.

[33:17]

OK. Can you hit a bell, please? So the first person, stopping. Great, let's take a breath. And the second person, go ahead, you have a couple minutes. Okay.

[36:05]

Finishing up. Finishing up. We can ring a bell. So stay with your partner. And just for a minute, stay with your partner. And now just for a minute, a back and forth. How was that? What was that like to speak? What was that like to listen? So for a minute and a half total, back and forth. How was that? Thanking your partner and coming back.

[38:27]

It seemed like people had something to say. I'm always, yeah. No, I appreciate the exuberance. It's interesting, I think, how we... I think we don't realize enough how powerfully we influence each other. And I would guess that... if you were with a different partner, it would have been a completely different conversation, is my hypothesis, that we actually, what we say is influenced by this other person in front of us, to some degree, I think. One of the, yeah, in How to Change Your Mind, Michael Pollan's book, they describe, one, how people's experiences

[39:37]

with drugs or mushrooms is completely influenced by what they're expecting. What you tell people is going to happen happens. And he's also describing where this was in the late 60s, early 70s when there was a lot, people were doing it in a kind of crazy way right here in San Francisco. And there was a Haight-Ashbury Clinic, and there was a doctor, Wheel, who's now become a kind of a known doctor. They asked him, what would he do when people were having bad trips? And he'd say, easy. I would just say to them, there's someone next door who's in worse shape than you. I'll be right back. And as soon as he left, that person got better. Now, there's something, we can laugh at that. But I think it's so... I think the opposite is true, too.

[40:45]

And I know there's been lots and lots of research about how contagious our emotions are. And when we think about how many people we are influencing. So my real kind of hope in this... in this work and this practice is that we can, you know, cultivate real connection and safety and seeing the similarities that we have with each other and wishing people kindness, right, to cultivate that. And that's the work that I hope all of us can be spreading in our day-to-day lives as we go off and influence others and are, you know, so... I don't know why, I actually hadn't thought of this before, but instead of road rage, we should practice road sage. Be a bodhisattva out there.

[41:55]

That's one of the many places where we influence others that we don't even know in our attitude when we're driving or our attitude in... I think I want to end with a poem, a short poem by Mary Oliver called Mindful. And Mary Oliver says, Every day I see or hear something that more or less kills me with delight, that leaves me with delight. like a needle in the haystack of light. This is what I was born for, to look, to listen, to lose myself inside this soft world, to instruct myself over and over in joy and acclamation. Nor am I talking about the unusual, the extravagant, the difficult,

[43:03]

but I'm talking about the ordinary, the everyday, the drab, the daily presentations. O good scholar, I say to myself, how could I not grow wise with teachings such as these? The untrimmable light of the world, the oceans shine, and prayers made of grasses. Thank you all very much.

[44:00]

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