This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. We have some colorful histories in our history. We have some colorful... about the ancestors both the main stories of the ancestors but also their background stories I haven't told you about the background stories of all the ancestors partly because a lot of it is like medieval mythology and If we had time, we could get into it.

[01:01]

But to just tell the stories, it sometimes distracts people to tell the medieval mythology stories. So I haven't been doing it. I've been mostly doing the stories which are like the kind of Dharma eye of their history. So I just mentioned to you that Shana Vasan was... a wizard in the Himalayas before he was practicing with Ananda. Ananda himself was not so colorful. He's just really good looking, which is pretty colorful. Anyway, Shanavasana was previously a wizard. And then Upagupta also had various... kind of medieval mythological interactions with various armies of demons.

[02:03]

If you want to read about this, you can read it in the Transmission of Light, the story of how he interacted with some demons before he started practicing boring Zen with Shanavasana. And where they start talking about doing boring things like leaving home. And the Chinese expression leaving home is literally leaving home. But it also, it's the Chinese character for like an exit on a building. It's kind of like two mountains piled on top of each other. So it can mean leaving or going forth. Leaving the building or going forth from the building. So you could try, and then the next character is home. This is the character the Chinese use for renouncing the world. Renouncing worldly affairs. Leaving or departing or going forth from the next character's home.

[03:09]

Leaving home. The Chinese, for example, also use for samsara, samsara means going round and round. The Chinese, the word for samsara is birth, death, which means birth, death, birth, death, birth, death, birth, death. It means it's like going around in a circle, samsara. So anyway, the Chinese expression for renouncing worldly affairs is leaving the home. And Shanavasana left home and Upagupta left home and after Upagupta left home, Shanavasana asked him the same, the question, not the same question, the question, do you leave home in body and mind or do you leave home for the sake of body and mind?

[04:13]

And, yeah, you know the rest of that story. Then when Upagupta met his disciple Dhrithaka. Dhrithaka said he wanted to leave home. He wished to leave home. And Upagupta asked Dhrithaka, do you wish to leave home for the sake of body or mind? And Dhrithaka said, I do not wish to leave home. for the sake of body or mind. And Upagupta says, well, then who, who leaves home? And Dhritaka says, the home leaver.

[05:15]

There's a Chinese expression there, again, leaving home person, or the one who. Like Ji Sha is Ji means to hold and Sha means like person or the E R. Like hold and then put Sha in the end, it's holder. So the holder is Ji Sha. And Ji Ko is that same Ji, no, that's different, excuse me. Ji Ko is holding the incense. Ji Sha is the holding person or the holder. So the home-leaving-er. The home-leaver. The home-leaver. The home-leaver. The home-leaver is self, not self, self, not self, self, not self, self, not self.

[06:25]

home liver is not self, self, not self. I appreciate that. And again, the Chinese characters are self, not self. And so, who leaves home? Because the home liver is self, not self, and because there's no me or mind, me or mine, the mind does not arise or cease. So in this home lever, in the home lever, the mind doesn't arise and cease. So if you say, I want to be a home lever, you could say, I want to leave home, but you could also say, I want to be a home lever, in a sense, you could be saying, apparently, Dhrtaka was saying to Upagupta, I want to be a mind.

[07:35]

I want to be a mind that doesn't arise or cease. Or I want to be the mind. I want to be the mind that doesn't arise or cease. And then he says, and this, this mind that This mind that doesn't arise or cease. This leaving home. This one who leaves home. This one who is self. Not self. Where there's no me or mine. That's what I want to be. And that's what I want to be. And that's what I want to be. And that is the constant way. That's the normal way. That Chinese character there sometimes people translate it as eternal, but that's not usually the meaning. It's more like ordinary or constant or always. It's the always mind.

[08:37]

I like that, actually. It's the always mind. You probably heard the question of what is the way? And the Zen teacher says everyday mind or ordinary mind is the way. It's that character. It's the ordinary mind. What's the ordinary mind? What's the usual mind? What's the always mind? The mind that doesn't arise or cease. This is what Upagupta and this is what Dyrtaka wanted to be. He wanted to be that mind. And then he said and Buddhas are also always they have that mind. Buddhas have this always mind. And this always mind is without form or characteristics and its essence also is without form and characteristics.

[09:41]

And then Upagupta says, you should awake, you should thoroughly awaken, you should greatly awaken to this mind as your mind and your mind as this mind. So, yes, I want this mind that doesn't arise and cease. I want this always mind of the Buddhas. But also, the teacher's saying, you should awaken to that your mind is that mind. Or you should, through your mind, understand that and understand that that is pervading your mind. And your mind pervades it. And then he did greatly awaken to the relationship between our mind... which seems to arise and cease and the mind which doesn't arise and cease. The relationship between our mind and the whole believer mind.

[10:48]

So that ancestor named Dritaka he wanted to be, he wanted to be that mind. But also, the teacher's saying, harmonize your mind with that mind. Harmonize the sometimes mind with the always mind. Harmonize the mind that arises and ceases where there is a self. that's kind of stuck, that's not smoothly pivoting with not self. The mind where it's not self, not self, self, not self. Integrate that mind with the mind where it is self, not self. Okay, so I, yeah, I really appreciate that story, so I told it to you, and there's other reasons why I told you.

[11:58]

which I don't know all of them, but there's a lot. So you could say one of the stimuli for me telling this story again also stimulated me to wear this robe today. Because last night I my body and mind stimulated my unconscious mind to have a dream. My unconscious mind and my body, my unconscious body-mind stimulated my conscious mind to have a dream while I was sleeping. And the dream was something, one of the main features of the dream, which seemed to be taking place kind of in the San Francisco Zen Center City Center was a dream where I saw some people they were they were like holding this robe folded up and they were doing something with it I don't know what it is and and I think right away I thought oh there's my gray Shia these people have my robe

[13:26]

And then a little later in the dream, I think Michael Winger was one of the people who was handling this robe in the dream. And later I went up to him and said, may I have, I think I said, my robe, would you please give me my robe? And He didn't just say yes. He said something like, well, some collector of Ocasas has it. And he showed me this document which has a bunch of lists, I think maybe of various robes in the robe collection that this person had. And I think it had the person's name and it seemed like it was a German name. And I think there was kind of like vaguely a price next to it. And he said, well, maybe we can buy it back.

[14:30]

And then now that this thought came up a little bit stronger, well, it's my robe. I didn't say it, but I just thought, I didn't say it to him, well, it's my robe. Do I have to buy my own robe back? So because of that dream, I had an opportunity to wake up. And when I woke up, I thought, wait a minute. Do you think that row is yours? Do you think that row, you can call that row mine? Wait a minute. Is this the home lever mind that's coming up? No, it doesn't look like it. In the dream, I said, my unconscious still has some, there seems to be some mine in my unconscious. Like there was me. the robe, and mine. And that came up out of my unconscious, into my conscious, dreaming mind.

[15:37]

And I was feeling kind of uncomfortable about the situation. Rather than, whoopee, we can have a fundraiser to buy my robe back. I didn't have that response. And I... I apologize for my unconscious that still seems to have some me and mine in it, and then sends little messages into my consciousness. The dark forest, in the dark forest surrounding my consciousness, there's some me and mine floating around that sometimes comes into the clearing. But then when it comes, I can remember our ancestor, Dritaka, who says, home lever, the home lever. The self there is a self that's not self, and self and not self, and there's no me and mine in there. And then this robe gives a chance to tell a story about the robe.

[16:46]

Again, this robe is something you can see with your eyes, but this robe is also something you can't see with your eyes. This robe is something that has a coherent foreground and an incoherent background. And part of the coherent foreground is a story about it, which is that this story was given to me in 19... at the city center by Suzuki Roshi so a sewing teacher before Joshin San came to Zen Center another sewing teacher came in 1970 and again in 1971 her name was Yoshida Roshi and she taught us her teacher's way

[17:59]

of making Buddha's robe. I remember one time I was ironing Buddha's robe and she she said to me somehow that I wasn't ironing it with enough solemnity. Maybe a little bit too fast, like rather than... I took her comment to heart. I didn't say... I didn't argue. I just listened to it. So she taught us how to make the robes. And...

[19:01]

And that summer, 1970, I was sewing a blue raksu to receive the late precepts. But also that summer, while I was sewing the raksu, the blue raksu, I asked Suzuki Roshi to be a priest. Because I thought, well, he's a priest, I want to be a priest. And he said, OK, so I was sewing the lay raksu as I was about to be ordained as a priest. And Yoshida Roshi was teaching us how to sew. And then I misplaced the raksu, and I was kind of happy because I didn't have to keep sewing it. I didn't quit, you know.

[20:03]

I just couldn't find it. And I didn't need it anymore because I was going to get a nice big black one, which I didn't sew. Sukarashi bought it for me and gave it to me. And then I lost the blue one. Sometime later, before Sukarashi died, I found the blue one. It had fallen... behind my altar. And I was not happy to find it. Because now I had to finish it. And I did finish it. And then I gave it to him and he wrote on the back of it. So I still have this rock sue, this blue rock sue with the teacher's calligraphy on the back. It's very clean. I almost never wore it. It says, Underneath this robe is a great treasure.

[21:07]

So the next year Yoshida Roshi came back and she started a project of sewing Buddha's robe for the priests who did not have a robe made according to Buddha's teaching. So the robe did... I was wearing was given to me by Suzuki Roshi from a Sotozen robe store. I didn't make it. So then there was a project to make robes for all the priests who had these Sotozen okesas. And some of them, this one, and I think Mel's, maybe others, were made from old Tassahara sitting robes. So in the early practice periods at Tassajara, if you've seen movies of early practice periods, there is a movie about it. You see the monks are going around in fairly light gray ropes.

[22:16]

Have any of you seen that? They're wearing light gray sitting robes. They're not okay sitting robes, like you wear, but lighter than this. And I guess before Suzuki Rishi died, he thought better of the color, and we started to wear black sitting robes at Tassajara and City Center. And so we had this material, quite a bit of material, from these old gray sitting robes. So these old gray sitting robes were made, some of them, into ocasas, cut up and made into ocasas. So this is one of them. So this is made from some monk or monks... In the early practice periods of Tassahara, this was their sitting robe. So it is, this material is more than 50 years old.

[23:19]

I don't know how old it is, but at least it was made into robes 50 years ago. And then it was made into an okesa about 46 years ago. And then it was given to these priests in a ceremony. And either before or after the ceremony, we were in the doksan room of Suzuki Roshi in the city center, and we said to him, how do you wear this okesa? How do you put it on? And he got up and walked away. And then we turned to Kadagiroshi and said, how do you how do you wear this and Katagiroshi tried to explain and he was having some difficulty explaining in a coherent way and then one of us said oh look and pointed to Suzukiroshi who was over in the corner of the room putting it on most of Suzukiroshi's robes were not in Yahoe this style

[24:29]

but the Soto Zen style. If you'd lived longer, he would have probably had them made and wore them. So part of me is embarrassed to have an unconscious that's feeding my consciousness appearances of me and mine, but then I also say I still can want to be a home lever. I can still want the mind that doesn't have me in mind, but the mind that doesn't have me in mind, I say, is not trying to get rid of the mind that has me in mind. It's a good friend to the me and my minds. It practices together with all me and mine minds.

[25:32]

But it is not a me and my mind. It doesn't arise or cease and it practices together with all minds that arise and cease. And Upagupta says to Dhrithaka, you should realize this mind that doesn't arise or cease, you should realize it as pervading the mind that does cease and you should arise and cease and use the mind that arises and cease to realize the mind that does not rise and cease. So in a mind that arises and ceases, that can be the wish to realize the mind that doesn't and again it would not be appropriate I think to try to get rid of the mind that arises and ceases because it's in the mind that arises and ceases is where the wish to realize the mind that doesn't is living so the thought I want to realize this Buddha mind

[26:57]

that thought is in the mind that arises and ceases. So we don't want to get rid of that mind because that mind is where you hold the bodhicitta is in that mind. It's actually a thinking. I think. I'm thinking that I want this home lever. I want this self-not-self. That's a thought about that mind living in the mind that arises and ceases. So we don't get rid of that mind, we use that mind as a place to remember the aspiration to realize the Buddha mind. So it's a little embarrassing to have a mind that arises and ceases, but deal with it. Kindly. Not like, okay, you can be here. Laughter it's more like I know I need you and you're kind of difficult but you know there's no no we're not gonna we're not gonna deport you I'm learning this new word I think it's called shout out is that the word does anybody not know what shout out means

[28:20]

Shout out means like you're maybe in a group of people and suddenly you praise somebody. You shout out. So I want to drill a shout out for Robin who had a kidney stone in breakfast and then had very challenging pain. Right? It wasn't difficult, huh? Yeah. So difficult that he didn't come to the Zendo in the morning. Right? Yeah. after that he was like trying to deal with it over in cabin five where we had a dharma transmission ceremony in in 1983 so he was trying to deal with it and then by tea he was back in the zendo and some of us were like whoa I guess it may be passed by then, more or less.

[29:24]

Welcome back. Thanks for coming back. Another shout-out is that Artanto respectfully told me that he needs to go to a meeting tomorrow during the Dharma talk to review applications for Tassahara, winter practice period. So if we happen to have Dharma talk, he won't be here. And I think Carolyn's going to go to the city, are you? Before lunch. Yeah. And return on Tuesday. Oh, you're going to go to the meeting too, huh? I'm going to many meetings. Yeah, so Carolyn also will be at the meeting. They're going to be with electronic equipment tomorrow morning. Well, I'll actually be there in person. What? I'll be there in person. Oh, you're going to leave today. Oh, yeah. So Carolyn is going to be in San Francisco tomorrow. Is that right? me on Tuesday he's fine okay so that's the story so all this colorful stuff is a lead-up to a really colorful person the next ancestor also was a wizard but he was like my god the grand wizard

[30:52]

I shouldn't use that term. What's Dumbledore's position? He was headmaster. He had 8,000 disciples. This wizard had 8,000 disciples. Big time wizard. But he's not totally arrogant, this big time wizard. So he actually went to study with... And he brought 8,000 wizards with him. This is medieval mythology, right? You say, what is the likelihood of it being 8,000? Why not 8,006? Anyway, that's what it says in the text. 8,000 wizards come with... Mishaka. Mishraka.

[31:54]

Mishraka. What do we say? Mishaka? So Mishraka. 8,000 wizards come to good old Dhritaka. And this conversation is a little bit difficult, so be advised. So the Juttaka says, the Buddha said, and Buddha didn't live very long ago in this case now, still close by, the Buddha said that studying wizardry and other kinds of skills is kind of a minor affair. It's kind of like being pulled around by a rope. You should, I'm not sure you said you should.

[33:10]

I couldn't even change it to. If you abandon the small stream and instantly return to the vast ocean, you will realize the unborn. and Mishraka listened to him accorded with his instruction and awakened so the difficult part is maybe some people might think Buddha is a little disrespectful of the wizards to call their activity a minor thing but it is you know even though it could be very powerful and of some use in the world it's really kind of small compared to the great ocean wizardry consults I think the vast forest in very creative ways and lets amazing things come into consciousness and

[34:32]

mind that doesn't arise or cease is far more extensive and it's a vast ocean relative to all kinds of worldly skills so the Dritak is saying to the next generation if you abandon the small the small and return return the oceans all around us all the time we just need to abandon this coherent little stream and return to the entire surround then we will realize the unborn the mind which doesn't arise or cease so it's it's kind of the same as the previous generation namely

[35:37]

if you abandon the small stream and enter and go and enter the home living state you realize the unborn mind and if you listen to these teachings and you open to this you might recoil And some people have told us that they kind of recoil from this really big mind because they're worried that something good might get lost. Like your human heart might get lost or something. So there's more unlimited worries you could have about what might happen if you actually return to the vast ocean. But if we don't return to it, we may not be able to realize the unborn Buddha mind now with the help of Dridtaka Mishraka dared to open he accorded with the instruction to return and he did realize the unborn and then

[37:07]

then he now can transmit it to the next generation. Anyway, I'm taking care of this robe. I can think of it as mine, but I can also think of it as not mine. But I am taking care of it now for a while, and I... I'm happy to continue to take care of it. And various people are helping me take care of it. For example, Babara. Little shout out, Babara. It's helping me take care of this robe. I think this robe is synthetic because it's really holding up well. Maybe so.

[38:09]

Carolyn also. Who wants this worked on my robes? Thank you. So we have received now the instructions from Dridtaka. Mishraka if you abandon the small stream and return to the great ocean you will be able to realize the unborn Buddha mind which calls to saying if you leave home the way I left home I, Dhritaka, you will realize the unborn Buddha mind, the ordinary, constant, always mind of Buddhas.

[39:24]

And in this assembly, people are listening to that suggestion or that possibility enough to feel some possible implications of that and some worries about that. But, yeah, I think I said to somebody, if you're afraid of losing your human heart, I understand that would be a problem. But in this context of Sashin and practice period, if by any chance you open to the great ocean and if by any chance you lose your human heart, If by any chance you think I don't want to practice Bodhisattva precepts anymore, then please come and tell me that this has happened. And we will, you know, we'll medevac a new human heart in for you. Or we'll reinstall the Bodhisattva precepts quickly.

[40:26]

But don't do this when I'm not a Tosara. Because I won't be here to help you. re relocate your heart you probably won't lose it but just in case you do we'll we can take care of you we don't want you to be walking around without your heart or without the precepts so if you think you lost them we got to find them right away and forget about forget about the unborn Buddha mind just forget about it for a while let's just get your heart back and your precepts back and then when you have your heart And the precepts, then again, open to the... This teaching of opening and returning to the vast ocean of the unborn, this is for people who are committed to the bodhisattva precepts, who have the bodhisattva heart. And we cannot do this practice without that in the appropriate way.

[41:30]

So that might be clear now, right? So if... If you're afraid, that's understandable. But still, you might consider, you might think about, if you would like to, I'm not telling you to do it. I'm just saying, if you want to, we promise to take care of you. Well, that's what I wanted to say this morning. Is there anything you want to say? You're welcome to say it. Up to a point. Same with me. I reached my point. that these realizations that these ancestors are having are small micro ones?

[43:02]

Or are these like one and duns? Are they small or what's the alternative to small? One and done. What'd you say? One and done. One and done? No, they're not one and done, no. They're one and then there's this big encouragement Zazen it's like it's like one and then like boy let's do this home leaving again this is and let's do it you know together and these realizations were the kind of realizations that did encourage other people so these people showed the realization in a way that made other people want to do like Suzuki Rishi showed being a priest in a way that I wanted to be a priest and And he showed Zazen in a way that people wanted to go sit Zazen with him. So people met him in San Francisco and they said, oh, like Zen master, great. And he said, well, can I practice with you?

[44:04]

And they probably wanted to do, had various ideas about what that would be. So he says, yeah, you can come and sit with me. So he encouraged them by being the way he was and then he sat with them and a lot of the people who started sitting with him kept sitting for the rest of their lives. The realization is such that it reproduces. It reproduces itself and it reproduces in this person and it reproduces in other people. So it's not one and done. It's, as my granddaughter says, again and again and again and again. And the funny thing about Zen students, they never get bored with another realization. But some, there's a difference of opinion floating around this world. Some people think one and done. Why continue to leave home? Why continue to open to the vast ocean once you're awakened?

[45:10]

Perhaps the one and done more or less means like maybe you had a realization in 1983 hypothetically and then Maybe this be your mind doesn't come back in your dream. Yeah, you might think that, yeah. Yeah, you might think that. There's a poem by Saigyo, I don't remember exactly, but something like he saw some birds take off. And he felt melancholy. And he was surprised. He didn't think he would feel melancholy anymore. He said, I thought I was done with that. So some people who have realization still think that there's some problems they're not going to have anymore. But some people have realization and they think this is not going to be the end of problems. This is a big encouragement to deal with them.

[46:13]

I also kind of want to say... I felt a little discouraged by one story you said where I think in 1970 you were having no problems. Yeah. That was like maybe after one or two years at Zen Center in your city. Is that a true statement? It was after about three years I hit this easy time. But it only lasted for a couple of months. Oh, okay. Like I said, you know, I came out of the practice period, you know, April. So I had May and June. We're like, easy. And then Sri Krishna came to Tassajara and I told him. And then he did this thing about folding the paper. And then the next day after that, it seemed like the next day, I went back and said, well, the next fold came.

[47:19]

And they asked me to go to the city center. and be director and yeah and that was kind of hard it wasn't so easy as being here and yeah it was really nirvana here for two months but then they deported me and I went because they asked me and said Greshi was okay with it so I went and then my life got more difficult I don't mean to wish me difficulty. You don't mean to wish me difficulty? I don't think I am. Well, some people do. And they're my helpers. They're challenging me. As a matter of fact, they want to be my difficulty. So anyway, difficulties are coming to me whether you wish them or not.

[48:21]

And if you thought that difficulty would help me, maybe you should wish him for me. But maybe you think he's got enough. I'm not going to wish him anything. But if it gets too easy for him, I might wish him something. Perhaps you can wish less difficulties for me. Did you say perhaps I could? Well, if you asked me to wish you for less difficulties, I might say to you, I wish you the, what do you call it, the auspicious amount. I wish you the amount that would challenge you, you know, but not be so much that you would kind of give up. And I wouldn't want you to have, and you might actually, it might be, maybe I would have a vision that he actually needs a little more challenge. Oh.

[49:23]

I'm saying perhaps perhaps you might say to me could I have less difficulty and I might feel like well I think actually a little bit more might be good and you might say no and I might say okay but I'm not saying that I would agree that less difficulty would be good for you but like If you said, I can't stand it anymore, I'm going to leave Tassajara, I might say, well, we can turn the flame down a little bit. It's okay. I'd rather have the flame lower than have you jump out of the pot. But if the flame's too low, you know, you'll rot. So we have to, it's the right amount of difficulty, and we work that out together, you know. And if you asked me to wish you for less, I would try to find out what you mean by less.

[50:27]

And I might say, okay, that's fine. Or I might not agree. Perhaps for a later time. Perhaps I'll engage that in the less public. Perhaps. Perhaps. But anyway, it's an issue. The auspicious... Auspicious means conducive to success. The auspicious amount of difficulty. The auspicious amount like the auspicious temperature of this room. The auspicious amount of sleep. The auspicious diet. The auspicious posture. What's the thing that's going to be most conducive to... letting go of the small stream and opening to the ocean. What's going to be the amount of difficulties that are going to help us? Because if we can open to this difficulty, we might be able to open to the ocean.

[51:37]

If we close to this difficulty, we're going to close to the ocean too. So we have to have some difficulty to help us open. But if it's too much, we close more. So what's the right amount of challenge so we can stay, at least stay this open and possibly consider opening some more. And then the neck and then another difficulty comes. Okay. All right. And open some more. Let go of the little. But not by pushing out the door, but by being open to it and be patient with it. So we need patience for wisdom. And patience needs to be challenged so I can expand. Expand to difficulty, insults, attacks, and then finally the highest patience is called patient acceptance of the unborn.

[52:42]

That's the most difficult thing to accept. And we warm up to it by being patient with all this other really hard stuff. But they're warm-ups for the big patients. And so if you have any questions, tell me about it, and I'll try to help you open to your current difficulty. And if we can turn it down, maybe we should. Like a friend of mine, open-heart surgery and yeah and I his he had to keep breathing after the surgery otherwise his lungs would fill up with fluid but it was so painful to breathe that he didn't he wasn't really breathing and so as long for filling up with fluid

[53:47]

and he didn't want to have pain medication. So the doctor said, you know, you need to breathe more deeply. And he said, I can't, it's too painful. Well, you should need to take pain medication. I don't want to take pain medication. Well, if you don't take it, you're not going to breathe because you're resisting the pain, but that's also limiting your breathing. So he took the pain medication, and then he could breathe, and the lungs cleared. One time I was in college, and I I had a sore throat and I stopped eating because it was so painful to eat. And I also stopped swallowing. It was too painful to swallow. So I went to the student clinic and they gave me, what is it called? It was codeine and aspirin. And so I could swallow. I could eat and I could swallow saliva. And, you know, They never found out what the problem was, but I recovered because I could eat.

[54:50]

So sometimes reducing the pain helps us recover from some illness, but sometimes we reduce the pain too much, and then it's a mistake. All right, Dan. I'm on the list. Thank you. You said that Mishaka was a grand wizard.

[56:15]

And the only time I've ever heard that expression or title used before is in relationship to a terrorist organization called the Ku Klux Klan. Yeah, sorry about that. I'm saying it because it's my vow to say it. to hear something like that, he didn't mean that. I know you didn't. But I'm saying it because it's my fault to say it. Okay, thank you. And in Being Upright, there's a story about a grand wizard. Did you know that? Oh, I read the book. Yeah. So, one of the stories in Being Upright is about actually, I believe, oh no, excuse me, a grand dragon. Grand Dragon, one of the heads of the Ku Klux Klan, there's a story about him in Being Upright.

[57:18]

Remember that one now? Yeah. So he was living in Lincoln, Nebraska and a Jewish family had left Chicago because they wanted to live in a less anti-Semitic environment. They didn't realize that the Grand Dragon of the clan was living in that town. And so that grand dragon started to send them hate mail, I think. Maybe even telephone, I'm not sure. And at first they were, you know, angry and defensive and then they decided to practice their religion of loving their enemy. And they just loved him in many ways. And he converted to Judaism and moved in with them. and died in their house and apologized to all the groups of people that he had harassed in his life.

[58:19]

That's all. Thank you. It's ticked up. It feels good. Is it okay if I open this? Is it okay if I don't open it? Yes. These last two stories lead me with a strong desire to study Wizardry.

[59:38]

I guess what I'm getting at is that so far, and I understand that this is medieval mythology, as you said, but in this school that seems to uphold the idea that this awakening is open to everyone equally, there seems to be a strong emphasis on the very unusual training paths. Like when these two wizards woke up, the takeaway wasn't for me. These two people just opened to this mind. It was more like, wow, if you're a wizard, someone can just say, wake up. And you say, okay. And that's the story. Or if you're a flying arhat, or if you're a renowned ascetic. Good point. That's sort of like...

[60:51]

What Jose was asking, do we have any examples of this great awakening in recent history? And maybe we need more weirdos in order to have that. The heart of the concern for me is wanting to go forth from here and live in a way that the state that I have that this path is open to everyone. But feeling like I have to come here and be a wizard for a couple of years in order to really do that. There's tension there. Yeah, so If you look at the story, the medieval part of the story that I don't tell is a long, difficult process that these people went through in stories that you can hardly relate to.

[62:00]

So maybe sometimes it's good to get into the details in the story and you realize that the person went through a lot to get to the point where the ancestor can just go beep and they wake up. That they had this long, evolution that got them ready for this looks like short training time with the person. So what is it? In one case, the student was training, Upa Gupta was training with Shana Vasan for just three years before he became ordained and we don't know how long after he got ordained so it may be that the path is open to everyone but maybe many people have to train a long time to realize that it's open to them like it's open to them the love's being offered but they need to train a long time to realize that it's there like in my case you know

[63:14]

I met Tassajarashi in 1967 and in the beginning of 1970 I told him I already knew he knew I was going to go to Tassajara but again I said well I'm going to Tassajara now for the winter practice period of 1970 and he wanted me to go and he wanted me to learn chanting from the visiting teacher Tatsukamiroshi But during that first years that I was with him, we had what some people might have thought of as a formal relationship. It wasn't, I wouldn't say cold, but it was all formal. You know, like I was watching him do his priest thing. He wasn't like putting his armor on me and hugging me. He wasn't saying, you're such a good Zen student. He wasn't smiling at me. wasn't frowning at me either but he wasn't really smiling at me and we didn't really have fun together but he noticed that I was there all the time I was there all the time and maybe you heard me say I decided to be like the post at the bottom of the handrail in the temple because when he came down the stairs at

[64:45]

the old temple in Japantown. He put his hand on the handrail and went down. And when he got to the bottom of the stairs, he put his hand on top of the post to turn the corner to his office. I decided to be that, like a post. So in his life, he would just like, I would just be there. And he'd pivot on me. It wasn't like, I'm going to be there, Shizakurashi. I just was there. And he knew I was there. And so one morning, after we moved into the city center, you know, usually he made the, before the Zendo meals, usually he made the food offering like we do. He usually did it. Tenzo brought it in and he took the offering and put it on the altar. One day he was sitting on the altar and he gestured to me like this. I knew what he meant. He meant, you come and do the offering. So I went and made the offering. And afterwards, some of my friends said, well, how did you know how to do it? I said, well, I was watching him.

[65:48]

Every week I watch him. Every time he does it, I'm there, I see it, so I know how to do it. And he knew I was watching him, so he knew I knew how to do it. That's the kind of relationship we had. But it wasn't what you might call warm. It was intimate, but I didn't think of it as warm. I didn't think of it as warm. I'm not saying it wasn't. I just didn't think, oh, we have a warm relationship. I thought we had a relationship where wherever he was, I was nearby if he needed me. That's the kind of relationship we had. And then so as I was saying goodbye to him to go to Tassajara, he reached out and shook my hands for the first time. And again, he hadn't shaken my hand before, just shook my hand. And You know, I never felt such warmth in my life. And it wasn't hot. It was like warmth. This warmth from the whole universe coming through his hand.

[66:52]

And I kind of wasn't surprised. I was kind of like, I thought that was there the whole time. But, you know, in my case, he didn't show it to me until we say goodbye. So it's there all the time, but we have to maybe practice diligently for it to be given to us in such a way that we don't get distracted and we just continue to practice. So it's open to everybody, but people have to get ready for it, otherwise it can be a distraction. Is that clear? Yeah, it is. I mean, the tension is still there, though. You know, like I think about it. Well, you have to work with the tension. I'm on board with that. And everybody is welcome to work with the tension. Yeah. And if they don't work with the tension, it might look like the teaching is not for them.

[67:56]

But it's really that they won't, because they're not willing to deal with the tensions of their life, they're not ready to open to the teaching. So part of the practice is to help people open to their life, and everybody who opens their life will simultaneously open to the teaching. So if what you mean by open is, I thought Buddhism was about making everybody able to instantly attain Buddhahood, yes, it is when they're ready. And... We would like to make that as soon as possible, but for some people it takes a long time for us to get ready because we have various things that we do not want to accept. So, you know, we might have to go be a wizard for a while. And, okay, I'm really accepting this wizard if you think, well, great.

[69:01]

Yeah, I guess that's just sort of how I feel practicing here. I leave here, meet my friends or family or whatever, and I feel like I'm this last ancestor that's like, yeah, I studied wizardry for all this time, but that doesn't have anything to do with it. You can wake up right now. I had to go live in the mountains for five years to get to a place of being at peace with myself. but you can have it right now. You're going to say that to your friends? Well, yeah, it's like a tension between... Well, maybe don't say that to them. Don't talk to them like that. If they want to know about Zen, just say, well, I'm not actually in a position to tell you. If you want to know, you have to go talk to people at Zen Center. I can't tell you, but I can wash dishes. and I can give you a ride to the supermarket and I can be patient with you that's what you should be telling them if you can do that they understand that that's enough you're the one who wants this other stuff they just want you to be a good dishwasher they don't want you to come home and be a Zen master

[70:29]

They do not want that. So you shouldn't be doing that. You can do them after here. It's okay to do it here. But at home, you're a dishwasher. No problem. I'm very thrilled to hear some of our ancestors are wizards, and I really want to stick to this lineage for this.

[72:20]

If causes and conditions... If I believe causes and conditions what I say, what I do, what I think, influence or affect on everything in the universe. Is that correct? Yes. And reality or big mind or Buddha's doesn't discriminate any good or bad. It doesn't judge. Is that correct? Correct. However, it doesn't go any, it's not the least bit separate from judgment. It's right there practicing with judgment. Buddha mind is encouraging intimacy with judgment, but it's not judgment.

[73:31]

And it's not no judgment. It's intimately practicing with whatever judgments there are, but it's not the judgments. My question is regarding to yesterday's answer to Greg's, Tanto's question about we are in a flame or heat and teenagers are, suicide rates are increasing, the portions are dying and all the species are disappearing. So what to do with this? Then you said something like, ah, we are, appropriate response is coming from our Zazen. However, what I thought was if what we do is affecting everything, then we sit here also promoting the death of ocean and decreasing species number in the world.

[74:37]

That is also part of our things. We cannot just say sitting with Yeah, but those things that we're doing, those things which we cannot separate from, those are not the appropriate response. The appropriate response is what comes from sitting in the middle of what you just said, namely that we are responsible for all these problems. We are not separate from them. It's not like we are not part of the conditions for it. It's just that what is our response to the situation and the Buddha's response. The Buddha's whole life is the life of appropriate response to beings. So everybody's responding but the appropriate response comes from sitting in the middle of all this pain and suffering.

[75:41]

We are not separated from these events. We are part of it. Yeah, that's the case. Whether we're sitting in the middle of it or not. Most people are not sitting calmly, wholeheartedly, fully accepting their position in the middle. They're not doing that. So their responses are not appropriate to, for example, peace. They're reacting from not being present at the center of all of this. The Buddha is sitting in the middle and accepting that position. Each of us is sitting in the middle but we are relatively accepting it. Some people really don't accept it and they want to kill themselves. They cannot stand to be in the middle of all this suffering. and they want to kill themselves.

[76:42]

And some other people can't stand it so they want to kill someone else. And some other people can't stand it so they want to get rich. And some other people can't stand it so they want to conquer other people. These are not the appropriate responses of the Buddha. These don't make peace and freedom. The Buddha's response comes from sitting in the middle where everybody's sitting in the middle. but the Buddha has accepted that responsibility. And then when the Buddha meets a teenager who wants to kill herself, the Buddha can respond in a way to help her. The Buddha cannot control her, cannot stop her, but the Buddha can give her a teaching to help her sit in the middle of her life and be able to not yield to the thought of killing herself. Buddha can think of killing herself too but Buddha doesn't act on that Buddha sits in the middle of that thought and then responds with compassion to the thought I want to kill myself and then the Buddha can teach that to another girl who wants to kill herself who thinks I cannot stand this and also I hate my parents for causing me all this suffering and I want to hurt them

[78:10]

So I'm going to kill myself. So killing myself and killing others, these are not what we mean by appropriate response. Those are harmful responses and they come from not sitting zazen in the middle of all this horror. The Buddha sits there calmly, maybe tears on the Buddha's face, but the Buddha still teaches wisdom and compassion from the middle of the flames. just for each person, for the teenager, for the oil company, for the politician, for whoever, they make the appropriate response because they're in the place of realizing their position. So sometimes the Buddha sits in front of an army and the army stops. Sometimes the Buddha doesn't sit in front of the army. Sometimes the Buddha walks in front of a mass murderer.

[79:11]

Sometimes the Buddha walks in front of a crazy woman. Sometimes the Buddha doesn't. But the Buddha always makes the appropriate response when the Buddha is being Buddha, which is to sit in the middle of all suffering calmly, generously, carefully, and wisely, opening to the true relationship and letting that openness let the appropriate response come. and again and again from the same position. How about if Buddha is not dealing with human beings? If the Buddha is not dealing with human beings, not dealing with human beings, such as the dying ocean, how can he respond appropriately? You'd have to watch the Buddha. Maybe the Buddha would... walk over and pick up some trash out of the ocean.

[80:13]

Maybe that would be appropriate. Maybe the Buddha would go, like at Green College, down to the beach and clean up the oil spill. Remember when we did that? Maybe that was an appropriate response. I don't know. Let's first of all find the Buddha and see what the Buddha does. Let's find somebody who could be right here who feels like, you know, I'm really here. I'm not trying to be someplace else. And I'm not afraid of anything. Whatever is being asked of me, I can respond. If people want me to stay here, I can stay here. If they want me to go clean up oil on the beach, I can do that. If they want me to listen to their cries and listen to their plans to kill themselves, I'll listen to their plan to kill themselves. And they can watch me listen. And maybe their mind will change. I don't know. but I want them to wake up and realize how to deal with this pain.

[81:14]

If they can deal with the pain, then they won't do these harmful things anymore. They'll be patient with it, and they'll be patient with other people's suffering, and they'll transmit the patience to them, but somebody has to teach them, and the teaching happens from the middle of the flames, and we're all in the middle of the flames. Everybody's at the center of the flames. But we have, some people are really good at sitting there and accepting it, and other people are really fussy and, you know, not wanting it. Like that story I told of my grandson, you know. Here at Tassajara, like 14 years ago, I want my mom, [...] I want my mom. And his grandfather just is there with him. I care for this boy, and I'm with him, and I'm not telling him to shut up. I'm not trying to control him.

[82:16]

I'm not trying to get him to stay or stop crying. I'm just with him, that's all. I'm not saying I was the Buddha, but anyway, his grandfather let him be that boy. And the next day, what does he say? Do you know? Remember what he said the next day? So he said, and I said, you can go home. We'll go home tomorrow. And the next day he says, remember yesterday when I was saying, I said, wasn't that silly? I didn't say silly boy. I let him be who he was and he could see. And if somebody wants to kill themselves and you let them be that person and they can see that you let them be that person and you're not trying to talk them out of it, you're just there with their suffering, then they can look at themselves and say, this is just silly. This is not going to help. It's still difficult, but they realize that suicide is silly.

[83:18]

It's not really helpful. Matter of fact, if you want to make things worse, that's probably a good thing to do. And wouldn't it be silly to try to make things worse? Yes. So how can we make things better? No, not make them better, make appropriate response. it is time

[84:31]

that you have that many hopes and your treasure, your treasure could not be ruined. Thanks to your generosity, it was extended in time and place and spread it in the universe so no one can get it. Once in a while, they put some people, they see diamond and dew drops. At the moment they reach to touch it, it evaporates. I also would like to say that.

[86:21]

I feel. What is the word some. I'll just say I feel challenged by Zen Center in the way that. We. Have this thing of sitting together. But then we also have this thing of meaning for doksan during zazen, so that some people are not in the zendo. At Tassahara, there's not so many practice leaders. Are there four practice leaders at Tassahara? Five? Oh, Leslie. There's five practice leaders. At Green College, there's like 20. So, you know, you can imagine if all 20 did, had interviews, plus their attendance, there would be nobody in the Zendo.

[87:29]

So that was starting to happen, that there were so many people out of the Zendo having private meetings that there was nobody in the Zendo. So, it's a sad thing, in a way. It's nice that people are getting together, but... So we have a new policy at Green Gulch, the first period nobody leaves for interviews. So at least the first period we sit together. And in the early days of Zen Center, for regular Zazen days, Suzuki Roshi and Kadagiri Roshi did not have interviews with people during sittings, only during seshin. And then during non-seshin time, they had... interviews during Nanza Zen time. So part of the, one of the tensions or challenges of Zen Center is how do we all sit together and also have people have a chance to meet. But right now I think I still feel a struggle or some challenge about finding the right amount of time for us all to be together and also give people a chance to meet.

[88:40]

I just want to surface that challenge. For more information, visit SSCC.org and click Giving.

[89:05]

@Transcribed_UNK
@Text_v005
@Score_88.21