This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Some of our perceptions and ideas are built on ignorance sometimes. You know, we don't know. We think we know. And I think most of what we think we know, we don't know. I mean, that's been my experience. Later, we find out we really didn't know. And so that's an experience of birth. And I have an experience of someone of a great Dharma sister that's in the process of dying. And Junsei Janadraka, who is... seriously ill and dying from cancer.

[01:00]

And I was going to visit her and heard a lot about, you know, that she was going in two weeks and this kind of thing. And I said, oh, I better hurry up, you know, go see her and be with her. She's also an heir of Zenke Blanche Hartman, the late Zenke Blanche Hartman, and so were Dharma sisters. And so I went to see her and, you know, I was all prepared. I have seen quite a few people die. And so I, you know, had my idea and perception of what it would look like and what it would feel like and what I needed to do to take care of myself like I knew what to do. So when I went to visit her, both Simwala and I went to see her, And I was prepared for this very deep process of someone trying to breathe and, you know, these kinds of things. And we got there and Jonna talked her head off like for two hours straight.

[02:04]

And like, like as if she were here, you know, with us, just her spirit and her life force was so strong. And it wasn't, it didn't seem like my perception or idea of dying. And I was like, Well, maybe she's not dying, you know. And I could see in her body she was, you know. But the way she was talking, it wasn't. And then we went again last Sunday, and she was talking for three hours this time. So, like, conversations are getting longer. And they're very clear. She has lots of visions for the world and, you know, very clear and very powerful energy, you know. And so this I thought to bring... this core teaching of Suzuki of not always so, and I'm going to see if I can read it. I always know this light in here. It's a little bit difficult to read in this light because it's yellow. So anyway, the secret of Soto Zen is just two words.

[03:06]

He says that first, not always so. Then he goes, oops, three words in English. So in Japanese, it's two words, and he doesn't say what those two words are, that we're aiming at. But not always so, it's two words. So again, you know, a different perception. This is the secret of the teaching. It may be so, but it is not always so. Without being caught by the words or rules, without too many preconceived ideas, we actually, you know, are not doing something... We actually are doing something when we apply this teaching to our way of thinking and perceptions. So this is, to me, one of the teachings that I walked with quite a bit in my life and looking at some of the various experiences I've had that have caused suffering. So a lot of times we come to practice and the last thing we want to hear about is suffering, but we can't because...

[04:08]

We're suffering. So it's kind of interesting how our minds kind of shift us away from it. We want to know about how to be happy and not look quite at what is the suffering that is in place for us and why we come to places, temples, or anywhere you may go to help your life and to help ease the suffering in your life. So not always so. I always seem to... create a place of openness in terms of crises, especially when I didn't agree with someone or agree with something. And we're living right now in a crazy world, right? Most of us feel that way, I think. So that's my perception. And an idea that we are struggling with each other, you know, as people. And We have a hard time looking at each other and not actually knowing who we really are, who each other are.

[05:13]

We have some perceived ideas about each other, but we're not sure. We want to be sure. We want to be certain so that we know how to respond. But what I found in my experience is when I'm certain and I respond from that certainty, I lose connection with the human being I'm in front of. or the human beings I'm around, or the living beings I'm around. And so when we have perceptions, say, for example, of being a group of people that may become extinct, that we're experiencing now, with the marches, with those who feel their being white and their whiteness is a... they're going to be extinct, that someone's going to take their place. Some other people, especially people of color, will take their place. That is a preconceived idea. And they're operating from that and causing suffering for themselves.

[06:15]

And you see how it boomerangs, you know, between all of us, no matter what, you know, your skin is or who you are, your sexuality or your gender. That when we... cultivate our certainty. And when we cultivate, you know, our fear of who we think each other are, we disconnect. And then the gift of the interrelationship that we're born with anyway, we go blind to. It doesn't go away. Interrelationship doesn't go away despite all hatred. It doesn't go away. It still exists. We just share the hatred or share the love. It still exists. So interrelationship, we're born in, all of us are born into it and there's no way out of it. I always say this to people because we try to get out of it. We would like sometimes to not have to deal with people. So we may would like to be on a mountain in a cave or something, some of us. You know, we want to be in solitude alone.

[07:19]

And so, but we're still interrelated. We were born into it. We were born into the interrelationship. And because we were born into this interrelationship that already existed, when we began to create preconceived ideas and notions of each other, we run into the risk of an annihilation that has nothing to do physically, but spiritually. You know, annihilation with each other and a disregard of each other, of all living life, when I say that to not just humans. And so, I... Walked with this not always so idea, especially when I am so sure it is so. It is so. It has to be so. This is what I feel. This is my experience. This is a sensation. This is what I know because it happened. And this has always turned out to be, and I have to say, always to be something else in the end.

[08:25]

Because if you look further and you look deeper and you let the preconceived ideas just go by, you probably can't get rid of them because we are human. But if we let them just set them aside and just say, not always so. It's not always so. And that opens up at least a possibility of us. all being able to be sustained, all life sustained here with each other. But we're working at that. We're not there. That's the absolute truth. That's the absolute journey. And so it's been an important journey in this practice following Suzuki Roshi's idea of Buddhist teachings and this lineage and And knowing they apply to all experiences.

[09:27]

And if you can find yourself in it, you have to find yourself in all the teachings, otherwise they mean nothing. You know, you must know what it means to you. And if you can't find that, then keep going till that one teaching touches you. Like the teaching of not always so touched me. You know, one of them. I tend to not dwell. deeply year after year after year of sutras, although they dwell on me, the sutras, and when they dwell on me, I find something in them that says, this is what I've been trying to show you, Zenji. So rather than me dwelling and studying and studying, I let it dwell on me. What does it mean? Form is emptiness and emptiness is form, but not try to find it in my head, to try to discover it. and go, no, it isn't. That's not true all the time, is it? To really take in the Metta Sutra and say, to be loved like a mother would love her only child, to love another like a mother would love her only child.

[10:41]

That's some great love. That's some great love that is being called upon us to experience between each other if we can allow it, if we can allow the true connection of it. Saying not always so is also a way of bringing that love to you, that feeling of what love might be for you, especially freedom. I believe love is freedom. Having that freedom to experience life, not freedom from something. We always want freedom from, but how about just freedom? Just freedom itself and experience it right now in the moment, not from something, not to something, not on a journey to something or get it from somebody else who has it. You know, not that kind of thing. I don't know what kind of freedom that is because I used to walk with that and it doesn't, it's something that doesn't exist.

[11:43]

It's not an object of it. But I knew, but I do know there's freedom. I do know that there's interdependence. I do know that there's interrelationship. I do know that there's peace. I do know that there's love. And I know these things, and I walk with these things, and I think we all know them in some way. And we might feel certain about it. So we might go, that's not love. That's not peace. That's not right. That's not good. That's wrong. What are you doing? That's when everything shuts down, and the connection to each other is no longer possible. And so I'm inviting everyone tonight to open up your heart and mind, just with your breath, to notice what you feel certain about and see whether or not you can just say to yourself, that's not always so, and what that does to you.

[12:46]

Let's just take a short minute to do that. Just really short. Just breathe. And just something you feel very certain about. And you've been feeling certain about it for decades. And it's in your mind. It's something that you created. You were taught. And you're breathing into that. And then you hear Suzuki Roshi say, not always so. And do you find yourself grasping onto it? I don't think I want to let that go right now because this thing has really engaged me. Just breathe into it for a little while. Are you still certain of what you know?

[14:04]

That's the question. And I don't have a call, but that's our call. I just wanted to speak for not too long because I want to hear from those who are sitting here. who might have something on their mind. It could be related. It could be something that was stimulated by what I'm saying. And I'm open to invite questions right now. And so I can start anywhere from any side of the room. Just let me know if you would like to engage. I'm not an expert. I'm not answering. I'm responding. Yes. I'm curious about clarity and balancing not knowing the value of that with the value of clarity. And which one do you value most?

[15:19]

I feel like I'm pretty good at dealing with not knowing. And when you're there, it feels... Like you're ignoring clarity? It might be. I feel like someone's stuck. Like you're stuck when you're in the not knowing? Yeah. That can happen. Yeah. Because the mind's still trying to make you know. So you're still trying to know. And that flow of just telling some people that the ambiguity of our life is actually the freedom. Yeah. Unfortunately, it doesn't always feel so good. Freedom can always feel good. The not knowing the right or wrong, up or down, which way now. The confusion can actually depress you. Because you want to know and you want it now. So sometimes when we hit those pockets of...

[16:23]

of not knowing where do we go now, like right now in our country, where do we go now, what do we do? Everyone keeps asking, what are we doing? Some people offer answers and have ways and actions to take and all of this is fine, but yet there's still no answer and there's still no action that can actually meet the magnitude of what we're dealing with in a country with each other. And so can we wait? Can we have enough patience to until what we need to do comes, until it meets us. So something's trying to meet you when it's in the not knowing and ambiguity. And your clarity is saying, no, I've already met you before. You know, it's kind of like when you meet somebody and they pop into you, oh, I'm not going out with you. I already know. I've been with somebody like you before or something. You know, you start, you know, we don't look at people sometimes and we don't like them because we didn't like a person that looked like them. You know, it's the mind, you know, it's very powerful and it collects data.

[17:24]

You know, it really collects data, you know, and we're working with that data. And then sometimes the data gets dropped. It's like, delete. And you're like, whoa, what? Wow, what happened? You know, I'm so lost, you know. It could be a moment, like you could get lost in a chant. You could get lost in walking in a movement. It could be in a moment or it could be your whole life like, well, what just happened? You know, to my life. You know, something's weird happening because it's not always so. Nothing's happening, you know. So there's something that's working itself with you, working with you for you to meet it of yourself. When Dogen, for those who are might not know, he was the founder of the Soto Zen teaching school, you know, when he said study the self, he didn't mean that you wouldn't know that self, you know, necessarily.

[18:30]

In your process of studying that self, you know, you're going to forget it. You know, you don't have to worry about that part. I think it just happens on its own. You know, there's a gap, you know, over time as it passes. So to study the self does have, it's not methodical. You know, we like studies that have a beginning and the end. And like I was telling someone today, some of my students all the time, I said, we never graduate from this. You know, matter of fact, sometimes we feel like we never even move from kindergarten, you know, in our spiritual path, you know, like, wow, it's still there, wow, it's still there. Still on ABC, ABC, ABC. And we want to be further. And clarity makes us feel we can get there. It makes us feel like if I have that. But what kind of clarity is that? What kind of clarity is that that cuts off your discovery?

[19:31]

So there is some clarity that can actually exist in the ambiguity. But it may not feel like clarity. Because it's not what you know. It's new. It's unfamiliar. It's for you to discover. It's a mystery. This is a mysterious practice. This is a mysterious place. We are doing mysterious things right now. It's mysterious. We think we know. But it's mysterious until we do it and walk it. Then we come to some experience of it. And then that experience passes as soon as we walk out that door. And then another experience occurs. and another one, and another one, and another one. So I hope it helps. Yes? I saw a video of you speaking with . Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[20:37]

And a few other sisters. Yes. And you said something about having a dream of fire. Uh-huh. And I guess I'm really interested, I'm curious, if you have any guidance for how to relate to dreams and what kind of like, what kind of intuition or guidance they can give us and like when to trust things that, you know, aspirations or dreams that we might have and when to, um, I understand. I'm what people would call a lucid dreamer. So I consider myself to be definitely in the same cohort as Buddha, because that's exactly where the Four Noble Truths came from, was from a dream.

[21:41]

And he actually had four dreams. He was a lucid dreamer. And he had four dreams. And one was about the earth as a pillow. And then he had a dream about the caste system and ending it. And then he had a dream about the Four Noble Truths. And always that fourth dream, I kind of forget about what that is. But he had four dreams. And from those dreams, we now sit here because they provided some kind of teaching. Now, at the time, I'm sure he didn't know, like, okay, this is what this is going to, I had this dream, and so it's going to do something. So I don't think he'd said, okay, let me follow it. I imagine, I think, at one point, he doubted, probably, even what he was dreaming. But I think that dream worlds are interpreting are very personal to different people and how they behave. walk with them. For me, I do know that usually when the language in the dream is very complete, like the sentences, and I can wake up and actually say them, that I know that there's a message, a very clear message to me or to someone, not even me necessarily, maybe just to the world, you know.

[23:02]

So I think, you know, I've heard teachings like everything is a dream. And if we treat everything that way, you know, then we're really not picking and choosing, we're just being. You know, so dreams are kind of that state in which we're just being. And that's what I see that is a process of that. And I don't necessarily talk about the dreams. And I talked about that one dream. because of the fire being the first element. And Buddha does have a sermon, a fire sermon, that you can look up, and he did talk about fire quite a bit and what fire meant and what that origination of humanity and what fire means in our lives and in our practice. He actually talks about that element as symbolic. you know, to how we practice. You know, we say it sometimes ourselves, when you're sitting in sashimi, you're cooking, you know, you're stewing, you know, with yourself.

[24:07]

And some people literally are hot, you know, but really, you know, with the ropes and everything. Well, you know, it's something you have to discern yourself of whether or not it's something to be told, interpreted, or just kept to yourself. Most of my dreams, I keep to myself. And some of my dreams, I know, From 20 years ago, I still know them. I could tell you exactly what happened in them. And I never wrote them down. But that's because it was so potent. I can't forget it. I can't forget the dream. So that made me realize I have experiences in my life like that as well. I see there's some experience in which I can actually remember every detail, even from childhood. I don't know what that is, but I do know it could have some information and it could not. Not always so. It's a big room to lift up hands. Yes?

[25:09]

Can you say a little more about the ambiguity you get your freedom? It's kind of like, I love, Pema Chojin talks about that the exact moment you're groundless is when you are transforming, that things are changing. And we always hear a lot of teachings about, get grounded now, get grounded and stay firm. And hers is the opposite, what she teaches is the opposite. And what I've learned is in the times of when I don't know anything and it's pretty mushy, things are not so certain and so sure, that during those times, I'm not happy about it usually, but I do know that something is working, that there's something changing. And a lot of times when we see that, we like to say, okay, I think I better go back to what I know. And we do that. Most of us go back to what we know. And we do that and we keep doing that until then it keeps happening.

[26:19]

And then finally, you know, maybe we can't go back to what we know. Maybe it's gone or... The person's gone, the job's gone, the family's gone, something's gone. You can't even get back to it. So when we have this open space that there's nothing to discover, our hearts are open, it feels for me like freedom. Like there is a chance to just be free of everything. I was walking on a labyrinth recently and I actually shared this message I was walking on the labyrinth, and I was walking around some other folk on the labyrinth, and then it was going on and on and on, and I could feel myself getting tired, like, wow, it's not over yet. And then when I got to one point, I had to step aside to let somebody else come by because there were so many on the labyrinth. And I stepped aside, and when it was time to step back, for some reason, something just happened.

[27:21]

snapped, and I didn't know which way to go. Like, I didn't know where I was on this, because it all looks the same, right? Was I on this road or that one, you know, when I was going around? And I said, oh, God, I'm lost. And I was just standing there, and I knew there was people behind me. And so then I looked back to see the person that was behind me to see if I was on the right. path. And then I realized she had stepped over too to let the people by. So I was like, oh God, which path are we supposed to be on? Because she's following me, right? I'm in front of her. So when I looked back and then I looked forward again, I was more lost than I was because I looked back. I was even more lost. And I said, this is very interesting. So now what are you going to do? And so then I said, well, You got to go forward. And so I just stepped on one of the paths and went forward. And I said, now this leads me to the beginning. Like I'm getting ready to start all over again. Oh, well. Oh, well. I guess I'd have to do the labyrinth again. I had accepted that.

[28:23]

Or I'm actually getting ready to finish it. But I had to decide that it didn't matter which way was right or wrong. I had to let go. And I really wanted the person behind me to say, get over here. And she did. She just looked at me, you know, because I was like, I'm not getting any help here. It was supposed to be silent anyway, but I thought she might go, you know. Get over there, because I said, don't you see I'm lost, you know. So, you know, we want people to assist us back to, please assist me back to the past, you know, and I look back for the past. So I realized when I look back, I can't go forward in my life when I'm just constantly looking back because I can't see where to go forward or where to even stand presently, you know, because if you're constantly looking back and you're looking for someone to hold that past for you so you could go forward. So it was an ambiguous moment, you know, and we have them, but we try to forget that we have them, you know.

[29:28]

So that's even ambiguous. purposely forgetful, you know, about what we want to remember, you know. So we're very tricky, you know, and the mind is very slippery. We're a very tricky species, so, you know, that's why we sit. We sit to a lot of slip and slide going on. It's loop, loop, loop, slip, slip, slip. Then it lands, like, remember that? Oh, no, slip, no. Slip, slide, slip, remember that? No, slip, slide. You know, we get to sit, and eventually you just still, and you feel it in your body, you know, the stillness, and with whatever it is your life is, whoever you are, what your nature is, and how you are. Like, you can sober yourself up by being quiet, you know, literally. Well, one more question or time, time?

[30:30]

Time, time? If there is one more question. I'm saying there are different qualities of not knowing or being in a state of not knowing. You can be in a state of not knowing because you're not communicating with other people very much or you're not taking care of yourself to So not always so and not knowing are two different things. So listen, not always so. Or not knowing. So can you hear it? Hear the difference in that? Okay. So not always so is just to open up the certainty. It goes along with certainty. So not knowing, like you're saying, can be a place of ignorance and wanting to be that way if you want to, or you're not making any efforts, or are not knowing because you're allowing discovery.

[31:45]

So I would say not knowing is more connected to discovery, whereas not always so is more connected to certainty. I don't know if that helps in terms of what you're playing with in terms of language. And I invite you to meet what will help open your heart, which one of those things will open your heart to the things that you feel your heart has been closed to, because our hearts don't close. We just feel that way. So that's what I can offer you. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

[32:46]

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