This podcast is offered by San Francisco's Zen Center on the web at sfcc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Well, it's nice to be here this morning, and thank you for your introduction, David. I had this all worked out yesterday. You know, as you, for me... when I give a talk, I don't write it out or anything, I just think about it. And then during the day, things fall into place, and I have really happy thoughts and so forth. And I had that, but when I woke up this morning, I said, what am I gonna talk about? That's not worth talking about, but actually, it is. and I'll tell you what it is.

[01:01]

I'm going to use a koan as my basis. This is, this koan is in the Mumankan, and it's nonsense, case number 29, case number 19, Nansen's Ordinary Mind is the Way. Any good Zen student or anybody who's been practicing for a month knows this koan. I hope. That's a little exaggeration. This koan is between Nansen, who was Master Joshu's teacher. These are two of the most well-known Zen masters in the Tang Dynasty in China. And Zhou Xu, who lived to be 120, as it goes, was Nanzen's student for a long time, Master Nanzen, Nanquan.

[02:20]

But this was when Zhou Xu... was quite young. I don't know how old he was, but he was young. And he was searching for the Tao, for the way. Tao, the Tao, there are many ways, you know, but this particular way was the way of liberation. There's the way of karma and the way of dharma. The way of karma is our ordinary dualistic life. And the way of dharma is pursuing the way of liberation, which is called sometimes enlightenment.

[03:27]

I like that word, but I don't like the way it's expressed. I think enlightenment means light. As we are someone who is on the path of liberation is expressing light. So there are many different ways of expressing this. When we speak of Tao in the Dharma, in Buddhism, Think of liberation or enlightenment or being a vehicle for light. So Joshu asked Nansen, he said, what is the way? This is what you ask your teacher in some way or another. What is the way? This is a setup, you know, this particular koan.

[04:32]

I mean, who goes around asking that question? So Joshu said, I mean, Nansen replied, ordinary mind is the way. So we usually think of transcendent mind as the way. or supernatural powers, something like that. People seek various things. When we come to the Dharma, when we come to Buddhism, when we come to practice, let's say, we come for various reasons. Because some people come to practice because they want to alleviate their suffering. Some people come to practice because they want to get their head straightened out.

[05:36]

Some people come to practice in order to have stronger sex drive. So, various people come for various reasons. So, but it doesn't matter what reason you have when you come. It doesn't make any difference because you don't come for the right reasons. Nobody comes for the right reasons. Almost nobody comes for the right reasons. But after we practice, we understand what the right reason is. So, the Dharma is an open arms. Anybody can come but we don't know why necessarily, but actually it's enlightenment that brings us to practice. So seeking enlightenment is backwards, in a sense.

[06:41]

Master Dogen says, enlightenment and practice are one. One moment of practice is one moment of enlightenment. two moments of practice, two moments of enlightenment. So when we enter practice, practice is the most important thing. Suzuki Roshi, you know, when he came to America from Japan, there were also a lot of other, after he came, there were a number of other teachers who came, and they were always trying to get their students to have kensho. Kensho, this big opening. a moment of realization or enlightenment. But Suzuki Roshi didn't buy that. He was interested in, he said, the main thing is not, okay, get enlightenment, big deal.

[07:49]

The main thing is how you practice. So he emphasized practice instead of enlightenment. If you read his talks, he uses the word enlightenment a lot. People felt that he wasn't interested in enlightenment. It's not that he was not interested in enlightenment or recognized in realization. But the important thing is practice. So because all... Many of the other teachers were emphasizing enlightenment. He was emphasizing practice. And if you practice, enlightenment is there. But if you start worrying about enlightenment, you tend to neglect what's in front of you. If you want an ice cream cone, you really want, it's a hot day, you really want an ice cream cone, so your thought goes to the ice cream cone.

[08:52]

And then you find your way to the ice cream store. And then you get your ice cream cone. But you don't think so much about how you get to the store. You don't think about each step that takes you to the store. So in a sense, going after the prize, until you get the prize, the rest of it is kind of meaningless. Your effort to get to the store is kind of meaningless because you want the prize. but you get the prize and then it's over. And then you have to get the prize again. This is our life. This is the life, ordinary life, is we get what we want, but there's something unsatisfying about it. And so we have to do it again. And we do it three times and it's called a habit.

[09:53]

Anyway, I'm wandering a little bit. So Joshu asked Nansen, what is the way? And Nansen said, ordinary mind is the way. And Nansen replied, shall I try to seek after it? Shall I go for it? Shall I go for this thing? Shall I go for the ice cream cone? And Joshu asked, so if you... And so nonsense says, if you try for it, you will become separated from it. I'd like to use, you could say separated, I'd like to use the word stumble past. You stumble past what's in front of you when you try to get somewhere. Suzuki Roshi said, well, usually when we want something...

[10:55]

something spiritual, maybe, we go that way to find it. But actually, if you want to find it, you have to go this way, which means you're not going anywhere. You're just down. And then when you take a step, that step is the way. And then you take another step. So as we know, the way is in the walking, not in the goal. Although you can't say one is right and one is wrong. You have to find yourself in each step. This is what nonsense telling, saying to Joshu. You have to find your way in each step. So if you try for it, you will become separated or you.

[11:56]

stumble past by nonsense. Well, how can I know the way unless I try for it? Right? That's a good question. Unless I try for it. Persisted Joshu. And then nonsense says, the way is not a matter of knowing or not knowing. Knowing is a kind of delusion and not knowing is is a kind of confusion. I don't know about those terms, but knowing is kind of delusive because you think you know something. Suzuki Roshi didn't like to explain too much. Japanese practice, we had about four or five Japanese teachers back in the 60s.

[12:59]

And Japanese practice is like you don't say much to the students. The students have to observe the teacher. It's a kind of apprenticeship. Teacher and student, kind of an apprenticeship. You observe the teacher and you observe how things are done. And you can ask questions, but... usually things are not explained. And there's a kind of intuitive understanding that emerges in that kind of situation. As Americans, I don't complain, I'm not criticizing, but we want to know everything before we do anything. But in our Japanese practice, You just do it and find out what it is. I like to describe it as the teacher pushes you into the ocean and you start swimming.

[14:08]

And you find out through your own effort. So... wanting to know. It's not that knowing is wrong, it's needing to know before you do something, which is logical. It's Western logic. But when I see the development of our practice without the Japanese teachers, I see it's not progress, but it's change. And according to, it's a cultural change, and it's inevitable. It's inevitable. Suzuki Roshi was a very unusual teacher. He was a very unusual teacher.

[15:14]

He didn't try to impose anything on us, which a lot of teachers do. This is the right way, and this is the wrong way, and these are the rules. But for Suzuki Roshi, it wasn't like that. He watched us, and we watched him. And it's just a gradual merging between the teacher and the students. And he didn't try to impose a lot of rules. He showed us his practice, which was what he knew. And he gave us the essence. that practice. But it didn't involve a lot of, we never had to memorize anything. He didn't say you should memorize this and that. Matter of fact, he didn't think that was a good idea because he wanted every moment to be our practice, not our understanding.

[16:21]

Beyond our understanding, Knowledge is like understanding. Oh, I know this. Oh, I know. That blocks knowledge, actually. Sorry to say this. Knowledge actually blocks our practice. It can be a block to our practice. But it's important. But it's not the main thing. So not knowing is, you know, there's a saying that not knowing is the highest, which doesn't mean ignorance. Yes, it means being open to everything without presumptions. Being open without any presumptions. And he used the example of the frog sitting on a rock just very still.

[17:24]

He said, I wish I could be like a frog. The frog just sits there perfectly attentive and not moving really still. And then the fly goes by. And then when the fly gets here, the tongue goes, gets the fly. And if the frog likes it, he'll go. If he doesn't like it, he'll go. And then he just remains sitting. This is our Zen practice. I wish I could be a frog. The frog doesn't know anything. The frog is really stupid. Nonsense says the way is not a matter of knowing and not knowing. It's beyond knowing and not knowing.

[18:26]

Knowing is whatever it is and not knowing is kind of confusion. So when you really reach the true way, beyond doubt, you will find it as vast and boundless as outer space. How can it be talked about on the level of right and wrong? With these words, Joshua came to a sudden realization. A happy ending. So I have a little story. There's a... very well-known Zen master, Dao Wu, in China, at the same time. You know, the Tang Dynasty in China was the golden age of Zen, between the 6th and the 9th century, something like that. And Dao Wu had his monastery, and around the monastery was a

[19:38]

a family, father, mother, and I don't know how many siblings, but a little boy named Lung Tan. Lung Tan means dragon bond. I'm not sure if that's the name that Dao Wu gave him at ordination, or probably was. Anyway, he was a young boy, and Dao Wu saw some wonderful qualities in this boy and he wanted to cultivate him. And so he moved the family to, they're a very poor family, he gave them a space on the monastery. And the family made these little cookies or biscuits or whatever, they're called mind refreshers. So every day Lung Tan, every day Lung Tan brought ten of these little biscuits to Tao Wu as an offering.

[20:50]

And Tao Wu would take nine of them and give him back one. And... Puzzled. That puzzled Lung Tan. After a while, he said, you know, every day I give you these ten, and you always give me back one. Why do you give me back one? And Dawu said, I do that in order to help your descendants. He's a little boy. So there's a kind of prediction, you know. He says, I only give you back... what belongs to you. I only give you what belongs to you. Which is very interesting because the teacher really doesn't give the student anything.

[21:54]

The teacher doesn't give the student anything but encouragement and direction. And usually in... depending on who the student is, for a good student, the teacher sometimes says, just go away. Go away and take care of yourself for a while. A student that's needy, the teacher will take the student in more. But anyway, this is where your descendants, I'm only giving you back what belongs to you. So that's very beautiful, I think. He's telling the student that what the teacher has to give is already within the student.

[22:59]

Education basically means bringing forth instead of putting in. True education, or Zen education, doesn't mean stuffing a bunch of stuff in your head. It means bringing forth what you already have. Bringing out your true nature. Bringing out your... more than you thought you had. thing that I really appreciated about Suzuki Roshi was in his quiet and quietly strict way, he made all of his students get beyond what they thought they could do. I think that's a mark of an extraordinary teacher, to stimulate the students to go beyond what they ever thought that they could do.

[24:09]

So later on, Lung Tan became Dao Wu's student as he grew up. And one day he said to Dao Wu, he said, you know, I've been your student for a long, long time, but you never have taught me or you've never given me any teaching on the mind. And Dao Wu said, I don't know what you're talking about. He said, when you offer me the mind refreshes, don't I take it from your hand? When you serve me tea, don't I receive it from you and drink it?

[25:16]

He says, what is it about the mind that I don't teach you? So this is a very interesting kind of koan. And it relates to the story in a way. what is the way? Ordinary mind is the way. So then, what is ordinary, and what is mind? We get up in the morning, and we brush our teeth, some of us, most of us brush our teeth, and then we do various things, and this is ordinary. We eat our breakfast, we read the paper, we sit zazen, Even zazen becomes ordinary in that way. So what is ordinary and what is holy? So holy is here, ordinary is there.

[26:22]

When Lung Tan asked Dao Wu about, you never teach me about the mind, he meant holy mind, right? Not ordinary mind. He wanted some instruction from the teacher about holy mind. Holy is an interesting word. I think, and I think my fourth grade teachers taught us this, that holy means whole, entire, basically. There are other explanations, but that's the way I feel about it. Holy means complete. nothing left out, and everything equal. So, you know, any Zen student knows that ordinary and holy are one. That's what we're taught. Holy and ordinary are one.

[27:28]

So this, this is the teaching that Dawu was giving to Lung Tan. Ordinary mind is the way. But we tend to split between ordinary and holy. We have a split between ordinary and holy. Unless we become enlightened. What does enlightenment mean? There's no split between ordinary and holy. Washing the floor, taking out the garbage. These are holy acts. This holy activity. This is enlightened activity. In a monastery, we study a little bit, but mostly we sit zazen and do ordinary work. Carrying firewood.

[28:35]

We used to do that, actually. Carrying firewood. hauling water, washing the lamps, cleaning the toilet, you know, for a shuso. The shuso is the, if you don't know, a head monk for the practice period. the head mug who shares the abbot's seat. And the work of the shuso is to clean all the toilets. Or sometimes, like at Tassajara, to take out the garbage and turn the compost. That's considered the highest activity in the monastery. The highest activity is taking out the garbage,

[29:37]

cleaning the toilets, turning the compost. That's holy activity. Ordinary activity. But what makes it that? There's something, what creates the split between ordinary and holy? Well, you know, it's the ego, right? The ego is the curtain between ordinary and holy. So when we take the ego out, it all comes together. It's like there's water on two sides of the dam. And if you take... that out it all flows together.

[30:40]

It's not two things. It's not two things and it's not one thing. It's one thing and it's two things. So when we're doing our ordinary activity we don't say oh this is holy stuff. You don't say that. As soon as you say that it's not. You can be it but you can't see it. This is a very important aspect of our practice. Show me your enlightenment. Well, you know, if you say, well, I'll show you my enlightenment, as soon as you see that, there's no enlightenment because there's nothing there. But if you have enlightened activity, you're being a vehicle for light. But as soon as you try to see it, gone. But you can only be it and you can't see it.

[31:42]

But you can see it in others. If you see the light in everyone, that's enlightened activity. Realization is to be able to see the light in everyone. But you don't look in the mirror. As soon as you look in the mirror, you're Ego jumps in. As soon as you want something, it's gone. So it has to be not wanting, but simply paying attention. There's another story. This one, Dogen talked about this story. Master Guishan, in Japanese, Isan, and it had two disciples, Kyogen and Kyosan.

[32:47]

Kyogen and Kyosan. They were his two disciples. They were both actually, became wonderful Zen masters. But Isan, very, very important. He had a school, actually, Yi San and Kyo San had the Ikkyo school of Zen in China. Anyway, it was a hot day. Really hot. I was recently in Tassajara last week. No, beginning of this week, and it was 103. And I could, you know, you don't want to move around very much. You just kind of lay down. So this is kind of like what it was like at that time. And Isan, or Guishan, was laying down in the siesta in the middle of the day. And the door was open, and Kyogen came along, his disciple, and looked in.

[33:55]

And Guishan said, He saw that and he kind of turned around toward the wall. And Guishan said, oh, teacher, you don't have to turn around and face the wall. It's just me, your disciple. And so Guishan turned back over and he said, hi. And he said, come on in. And Guishan came in and he said, you know, I had a dream. what do you think my dream was? Can you tell me what my dream was? And Guishan didn't say anything, but he went downstairs and he got a bowl of cool water and a towel. And he came back up and said, here's your water and your towel. And then he put it on top of

[34:58]

Goishan's head and wiped off his brow. You know, in the hot weather, that's great. I used to do that with Suzuki Roshi. During the summer of 70... 71, something like that. We'd walk around and I'd have this cold towel and put it on top of his head. It's very refreshing. So there they were. And then... Kyosan came along and he looked in and he saw the two of them and he said, hi. And Guishan said, you know, I had a dream and asked Yangshan Kyosan to interpret my dream. And He said, I had another dream.

[36:00]

Do you know what that was? And I think it was Kyogen went downstairs and he made some tea and brought out the tea with three cups. And he brought it in and then the three of them drank the tea. Dogen says, this far surpasses Manjushri and all the other sages in the world. So this is ordinary mind, the ordinary mind of Buddha. And interpreting the dream of the teacher. So, you know, there's no self-centeredness in any of this.

[37:13]

So what is it that takes the place of self-centeredness? Well, it's called samadhi. Samadhi takes the place of self-centeredness because it brings everything together. Literally, samadhi means concentration. I don't want to call it a state of mind because it's actually no special state of mind. Samadhi is no special state of mind. That's why it's hard to grasp. There are many different samadhis. But it's your mind when it has no special, when it's not attaching to anything. There's no aversion and there's no grasping. And every moment is a brand new state of mind.

[38:22]

There's so many states of mind that they're uncountable in one moment. Mind is always changing. So... Samadhi is allowing the changes and not attaching to any state of mind. So when we sit sazen, it's called samadhi. This is the samadhi of sitting still and letting everything appear but holding on to nothing. So that samadhi is the state of being free. That's called freedom because there's no attachment to anything. And yet, it doesn't mean escaping from the world, but the mind is totally open to everything, but hangs on to nothing. And when enjoyment arises, it's just enjoyment. When difficulty arises, it's just difficulty.

[39:25]

That's all. It's just one thing at a time, following each other. So Suzuki Roshi called it living completely one moment at a time without any aversion or grasping. What is the way? The way is to always be in samadhi. So there's the samadhi of sitting still and then there's the samadhi of work. There's the samadhi of moving around. When we sit zazen we enter the samadhi of stillness of actually zazen is called great dynamic activity because it's

[40:35]

We tend to think that zazen is passivity, but actually zazen is activity. Every part of your body-mind is totally present in zazen, if you sit zazen correctly. There's nothing left out. So whole body and mind is in harmonious, dynamic activity. Sitting up straight, breathing. Letting breathing breathe. You don't breathe. Breathing breathes. The universe is breathing me. If you think about it, how can it not be? The blood runs through the body. You don't have anything to do with it. So we're cosmic beings. Samadhi is allowing ourselves to be moved. without restriction by the cosmos.

[41:41]

We're cosmic dust. And because of the causes and conditions of this earth, we appear as people and animals and plants and stuff. So to be in harmony with the universal activity, which is called our body. Body is just universal activity. It's not mine, not me and mine, although it's not not mine. It's also mine. It's mine to cooperate with its creator. When we can do that, we disappear. And at the same time, we're totally here. It's not one thing or the other.

[42:43]

It's called co-operation. And when we co-operate together with, then we have enjoyment. Enjoyment is something that's always there. But we cover it over. Enjoyment is our natural state. And samadhi is our natural state. not something special. Nothing special. Suzuki Roshi, his mantra was nothing special. And yet everything is special. Everything is special and nothing is special. As long as we think one thing or the other, we fall into duality. So we have to include the opposite in order to be complete, in order to be holy. in order to be whole and complete. We have to include opposites. That's called don-duality.

[43:46]

But at the same time, we have to appreciate duality. We have to appreciate our ignorance. So... Master Muman has a verse for this case. He says, The spring flowers, the autumn moon. Summer breezes, winter snow. If useless things do not clutter your mind, you have the best days of your life. what are useless things? I'm not sure if that's a good translation, but it's okay. Useless things, things that are vain, actually.

[44:50]

Vain means comes to nothing in the end. So, Joshua turned out to be probably the most famous Zen master. And he learned this from his teacher, Nansen. So ordinary and holy. You know, as Zen students who work in the kitchen, The kitchen is one of the very most wonderful places to actually practice because you have a number of people working together in a small space carrying knives.

[45:52]

And things get busy and so you have to really pay attention. You have to pay attention to what you're doing. You have to pay attention to what everybody else is doing. You cannot have your own way. You know, when you totally cooperate, when you're totally co-operating, then you have your own way. Truly, you own it. You have your own way. Suzuki Roshi said, you should always be the boss, which doesn't mean you should boss everybody around. You should be the boss of yourself, which means co-operating. cooperating to create a harmonious situation, a harmonious situation that's called a Buddha field. Each one of us has a Buddha field, which is the aura with which we relate to everyone.

[46:59]

And we have an influence. We're all influencing each other. People say, You know, I've been here around a long time, but I never get to teach. It doesn't matter because we're always teaching. We're always teaching each other how to relate. And we're always teaching, if you're a Zen student, you're always teaching the Dharma in your actions. When you can teach the Dharma just through every action, then you can teach others. publicly. But we're always teaching. Anyway, how do you become a teacher? Not by somebody telling you to teach, but by your actions. How you harmonize with everyone. And how you let go of self-centeredness.

[48:01]

This is what Suzuki Roshi's teaching was. Let go of self-centeredness. Do not be selfish. That was the basis of his teaching. Don't be selfish. He used the word selfish. I said, don't you mean self-centered? And he said, no, I meant selfish. That's his understanding. Either way is okay. That was the way he expressed it. I remember also Phil Wilson, who loved Suzuki Roshi dearly, and Suzuki Roshi used to take his stick and beat him and say, ego, ego, ego. But they both laughed. Excuse me. It was such a pleasure for everybody to be...

[49:08]

hit by Suzuki Roshi's stick. Everybody felt blessed. So I'm going to stop there. I just want to say one thing. With Guishan and his disciples, this little story was about supernatural power. What is supernatural power? Please pass the tea. Oh, I know what you want. A cup of tea. For Dogen, that was supernatural power.

[50:13]

Nothing special. very special because there was nothing to it. Well, I'm happy to do that, but I am And I like that better than the dining room. But actually, that takes place in the dining room. Here? Oh, great. Oh, is that so? So everyone that doesn't want to stay for question and answer can leave. And then come back.

[51:14]

After the cookie. After your cookie. Okay. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma talks are offered free of charge, and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, please visit sfcc.org and click giving. May we all fully enjoy the Dharma.

[51:47]

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