This podcast is offered by San Francisco's Zen Center on the web at sfcc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. So welcome, everyone. My apologies for being a few minutes late. I literally simply stopped paying attention to the time. Gil and I decided that we would start by attending to the question, the most important thing about practice for each of us. And apparently when I think about the most important thing, time isn't the most important thing. I want to start by...

[01:03]

formally welcoming and acknowledging Gil. He has set up for himself an intense schedule of teachings and supports for his sangha at IMC and IRC. I'm deeply grateful for him for making time to join us for this intensive. I feel blessed for knowing and practicing with Gil for decades and constantly learning from just who he is and how he is. So thank you so much, Gil, for joining us in this intensive. What we will do, we will both make some direct comments about the heart of our own practice.

[02:22]

And of course, our own is an absurd notion. Maybe how we give our heart to practice is a more appropriate way to say it. Something over more than four decades has drawn me like a passionate love affair that feels more intimate than the beating of my heart. More what this being is that I call me than the thoughts and ideas and desires and aversions that flow through it.

[03:37]

When I contemplate it, Resonance happens. A resonance of aliveness. As if seeing becomes a Dharma vehicle. As if the very process of breathing knows more about than the mind becomes a koan, a teaching that constantly turns all the fixed notions that occur in the mind and the fixed emotions that occur in the heart

[04:51]

The words that rise up for me are expressed by Dogen Zenji in Bendawa, where he says, all the Buddhas and all the ancestors, without exception, without deviation, have practiced in a particular way. call that way Jijiu Zanmai, self-engaging and learning from the self what it is to wake up, what it is to live in a way that's the heart's desire. what it is to live in a way that gives and receives.

[06:10]

Or maybe it's receives and gives back. And giving over to that way... like a relief. It's energy. It's expansiveness. It's appreciation for being alive. It's settledness. So be it. It's confidence. Just this is it. reverberates through every aspect of being, like a great joyous compassion.

[07:28]

it reflects on existence. Teachings arise. Sometimes it feels complete, just this as it Sometimes it feels boundless and mysterious. So many aspects to our existence, our collective life on this planet, and who knows beyond this planet, our collective existence in this life, and who knows before and after.

[08:42]

And that mystery, rather than feeling like a shortcoming, feels like a marvelous opportunity to learn, to discover, to realize more and more dimensions of being. And somehow all that gives birth to simple notions, like, do what you're doing. Simple notions like, Don't give up on anyone.

[09:44]

Don't let them be defined by some negative sentiment. Ferocious relationships to life. What is wholehearted appropriate response. Ferocious, but also absolutely charming. What an adventure this is going to be. The realm of possibilities that beginner's mind brings forth. And how, as Dogen Zinji says, all the Buddhas and all the ancestors have practiced this.

[11:06]

It seems to me in my own foolishness that this spark is within every one of us. That something in us knows it as thoroughly as we know how to breathe. And every one of us is endeavoring each in our own way, to live it, to illuminate it, and let it guide us through this human life. I would say, call it what you will. Call it Buddhism. Call it Vipassana.

[12:12]

call it Theravadin, call it Zen, call it Zogchen, or anything else. When we taste it, it quenches thirst. When we see it clearly. Neither real nor unreal defines its existence in a wonderful mode of dynamic activity. When we sit zazen, It's right in front of us as the coin of being alive.

[13:19]

Every aspect of our life has a teaching about it. self-employing and engaging continuous contact as a translation for Samadhi. Thank you. Thank you, Paul, very much for that and deeply appreciate it and deeply appreciate our years together and how much I've learned from you. And also to the degree to which in a very nice way, I feel accountable to you when I teach or when I teach with you and how I am in the world.

[14:37]

And it's very nice to have a friend like that. The best of my Dharma, hopefully, is a chance to... encouraged in this accountability or this sharing of it together thank you in terms of uh you know if i had just a short few minutes to express what i thought was most important about dharma or what's been for me i think i would start by saying that it's deeply deeply personal So deeply, deeply personal that the personal falls away. That it's a practice or a process of being turned inside out. So the personal that's deep inside becomes, turns inside out and kind of becomes the world.

[15:41]

That would be the introduction. And then I would say that the heart of what I think is important, or is important for me, is... freedom from suffering. I think that it's so painful that we suffer and people suffer and there's suffering in this world. And there seems to be a natural desire, natural momentum towards becoming free, being free of suffering. there's someone going to help with that. And that it's possible to become free of suffering.

[16:43]

It's really possible to put one's suffering to rest, to come to the end of it. And because it's possible to you know, to do so. And that it's a very simple statement, suffering and the end of suffering. And it doesn't contain a lot of other teachings or I think the simplicity of that that statement to bring suffering to an end kind of guides the practice to keep it on track, to keep it close to that possibility and not to get too sidetracked by other ideas of what practice should be, what it's about.

[17:51]

And so is it, it's possible to live a life where we distinguish between what brings us more suffering and what leads us away from it and brings an end to it. And the end of suffering is a phenomenal thing. It's just one of the, I think, one of the greatest ways of experiencing this human life. It's one of the... even though it's an absence of something it's uh one of the most beautiful profound peaceful meaningful most happy things that that i know and um and uh and i feel like that you know if that's all that all the time i had to say i would say that's the most important thing and then i would add if i had more time like i do

[18:55]

that the absence of suffering is a phenomenal thing. I don't really know what it is. It's many things. But it's a wondrous thing. And to be in the flow of life, be in the flow of experiencing life that uh where the current we're riding the waves we're riding that's pulling us carrying us along is this absence of suffering kind of like an absence that makes such wondrous things possible and makes you feel that it's this is where it doesn't feel so personal in the deep personal way in which it is it's and say that no longer that I'm the one who's really in charge or doing.

[19:59]

But there's freedom. And in that freedom, there's something that flows. And it's possible to experience that freedom. And it's not the done deal that we never suffer again. But it's possible to experience in such a clear, definitive way. Many people describe it in other terms than my term. Some people would have more colorful, wondrous descriptions of what that is like. But I like the simplicity of it and the clarity of ending of suffering. It's a litmus test because you can check in. Is there anything left of suffering here? There is. Then there's more work to be done, more practice. But the... But then, you know, it's still, you know, it's possible to have this deep letting go of suffering that's life-changing and then to still comes back.

[21:11]

Then there's this wonderful interplay between the suffering and that which is free of suffering that flows through us. And the momentum that creates or the contact between the two and how a practice is born, a continuous practice is born in that contact. And rather than suffering being just a drag, it's clear that suffering is the meeting place, can be the meeting place of that inside of us that wants to practice, that wants to move in the direction of freedom. Even if we don't want it, even if our conscious self says, you know, I don't really want to do this anymore. It's moving through us anyway. And this woman, absence, at some point, this absence of suffering, is the absence of clinging, attachment, the absence of being stuck in self and

[22:20]

also stuck in self and others this idea of othering people which we do so much as much as self begins to fade enough that um we become attuned to aware of the suffering around us in the world is not really something that's different than ourselves not something any as any less value than our suffering or as this the flow of practice moves through us that no matter where it contacts suffering whether it's inside ourselves or in the world around us something meets it something responds to it something the desire for suffering the end of suffering not just personal it's also the desire for others as well, not to suffer.

[23:23]

But still, the heart of the matter is, for me, is suffering and the end of suffering, whether it's for myself or for others. And sometimes I'm quite content to suffer a little bit if what I get to do is to try to alleviate the larger suffering out in the world. And sometimes I'm quite content to have my own challenges and to practice with it or to let the practice practice me with it. In Theravada Buddhism, what Paul might have been talking about, the GGU samadhi, It's very similar in my mind to the idea of, in Theravada Buddhism, there's a very famous teaching or idea that as one practices, at some point when it enters the stream, the word that's translated as stream, it means current.

[24:39]

And so we've found the current in the river. As long as you stay in the current, it carries you someplace. And so this absence of suffering, enough letting go, absence of clinging, that you find yourselves in the current of the Dharma. And that current takes us to, keeps taking us in the direction of freedom from suffering until it's complete. Now what we'd like to do is maybe we could say try to be more entertaining.

[25:50]

As I was saying that before, I noticed my eyes go across the screen sort of checking people's expressions. Do they look bored? Do they look frightened, mistrusting, or whatever? Maybe think, what presentation is quite literally appealing or resonant So many ways to talk about the Dharma. So here's what we'd like to offer you next. We were musing on the question. So periodically I will go down to Gill's retreat center.

[27:00]

Well, it's not Gill's retreat center, but in a way you know what I'm talking about. Where he teaches. And we will co-teach. When I go there, what am I bringing? Am I going there as a Zen priest? Do I bring all my Zen outfits? Do I bring Zen chants? Do I bring a vocabulary of Zen words? Oh, in Zen we call this the Han. In Zen we call this the Tenzo. And of course it's none of those.

[28:02]

Quite literally. I don't bring my Zen outfits. I don't try to impose upon the situation. some of the affectations of traditional Zen. And I use the word kindly. I know it can be pejorative, but inevitably our practice together will take on a certain demeanor and certain characteristics. Once there was a teacher who I came to Zen Center to give a talk. And I think I was either the Tanto or the Eno at the time. And I'd been told this teacher had no forms. And she was sitting eating dinner with a couple of students. And I said to her, how would you like to do the talk?

[29:07]

And one of her students said, she has no forms. And I thought, but you have to. Either you're going to sit there right at the dinner table and give it from there, or you're going to go to the back of the dining room, or you're going to go to the Buddha hall. Either you're going to bow before you start or not. So in the end, we negotiated, and it all worked out just fine. What do I bring when I go? I bring a trust in the Buddha Dharma that the authentic heart of the practice at the retreat center will instruct me. It will teach me and instruct me on how to be there.

[30:15]

in how to harmonize and how to appreciate the forms, no forms of the retreat center. And actually, I can't help myself but think, oh, well, this is the form. I was kidding, and I was saying, well, okay, you don't sit in a straight line, but you sit in lovely... curved lines, concentric curves. They curve around the altar. One of the first things Gill said to me was, well, you and I, as the retreat leaders, we make breakfast. Exemplifying to my Zen mind, well, yes, We're one organism, and each of us plays a role in the health and utility of the organism.

[31:26]

And we're going to eat. And of course, why wouldn't we play a role in that? That's the Zen way. And then just watching how... There was an orderliness to how certain utilitarian things happen. At mealtime, we line up, the cook of the meal comes out, vows to the altar, and vows to the sangha. And my mind thinks, oh, another Zen form. And then my mind also thinks the Buddha Dharma is neither Zen nor Vipassana nor Thuravadana.

[32:37]

The Buddha Dharma arises in the vitality of authentic awareness in each moment. When I listen to Gil speak, that's what I hear him say. When I watch people sitting, that's what I see. And when I think that way and see that, it doesn't actually matter that much to me, you know, how I dress. If Gil said to me, oh, would you wear all your Zen outfits? I'd just say, okay, whatever. He actually doesn't prescribe anything in a language that we use at Zen Center and in the Zen tradition.

[33:52]

Inevitably, there are forms. Inevitably, you do it a certain way. But it's just the way you're doing it. It's not the forms that have to happen. Because the heart of the practice doesn't have a fixed form, doesn't have a fixed expression or presentation. And to me, that is the key to engaging forms and having them be an agent of liberation. And I watch. And when I see... Oh, and everybody has a cleaning job, I think. Well, of course, that's the Zen tradition.

[35:01]

So, in some ways, I think IRC, so-called Vipassana Retreat Center, in some ways, I actually think it's more Zen than Zen Center. And... And when I think that, then I feel very at home there. Maybe that's enough. Thank you. Let me continue on this theme of what we bring back and forth between these traditions as we teach. So certainly I've brought a lot of Zen along with me and teaching Vipassana. And I'm not always so conscious how much I'm bringing. And I'm regularly surprised by someone saying, you know, how Zen some talk was or how Zen something is.

[36:08]

And sometimes I know, but sometimes I say, really? I thought I was trying not to be. So, you know, it's close by sometimes. And, but the, And it's also changed over time what influences from Zen I bring with me into Vipassana and what I don't. And I think in my early years of teaching Vipassana, I put a much greater emphasis on the practice and the value of real radical presence in the moment, a radical presence. unconditional acceptance of this moment and mindfulness where there's nothing more that needs to be done than a very thorough complete awareness of the moment and that there's something complete about each moment of mindfulness and something profound about it where there's no need for it to be different and no no reaching out for other states of states of meditation or states of realization or

[37:21]

anything that's beyond that moment. And I think I taught that a lot in the early years, much more. And then at some point, I began feeling that that way I taught, as much as I thought it was, I still think it's a profound teaching. It's something I want to convey. I want people to understand that together with the idea that there is a along the path. We do grow and mature and develop along the path as well. And sometimes if people don't know that, then the radical unconditional acceptance or being just here with no goal at all can lead to a kind of maybe complacency, stagnation, kind of just kind of everything's okay and so we don't really need to go anywhere. And sometimes I see that that leads to people's suffering, continue to suffer, and a kind of acceptance of their suffering as well.

[38:31]

And so in Vipassana then over these more recent times, I've switched my teachings to be a little bit more Theravada, Theravadan in the sense of talking about Theravada, some of the progress and development about the path and some of the things that... deepening states of meditation and how that works, and including sometimes talking about states of realization, which I did in a way that I never would have done in much of my career as a teacher, when I gave my little few minutes on the most important thing, and I talked about entering the stream. I pulled away. I was actually very resistant, very... doctrinally opposed to even getting close to that concept for decades. But now I have this feeling that it actually supports people to mention it. And people have a sense that, yes, there is something.

[39:34]

There is an end of suffering. It's really possible. But what the balance is between these two is the art of it all. And to be too concerned about getting someplace is still a problem. And one of the great Vipassana teachings that I heard from a teacher named Heather Martin, she said, the fastest way to go from A to B is to be fully at A. And that statement kind of, for me, ties together. It allows for both. It allows for the possibility of B, of coming to the end of suffering. And it's understood that the way there is to really... be here in a full way. And then, if I was going to come to Zen Center to teach at Zen Center, and I was going to bring some of my Vipassana with me to Zen Center in my teaching, even if I didn't plan to do it, probably these days, if I came to just give a pure Zen talk, chances are people would say, that was pretty Vipassana-like.

[40:42]

I would say, really? I was just trying to do Zen. So the way these are integrated in me, I can't quite get away from them. But if I was going to consciously bring some kind of vipassana teachings as a way of supporting the Zen practice, that would really be the attitude to support it. It would be try to convey a certain very healthy and inspiring experience intolerance for suffering to not have some kind of left with some kind of practice of just being with things as they are and then continue to suffer better just suffer you know great with it but to have some idea of you know not be stuck in suffering not be and and then

[41:44]

And the one thing I would contribute from the Zen tradition is in order to help people's shikantaza better, really show up more fully for what's here without even a goal, is to the careful attention to detail that's in vipassana, to mind states and thinking and emotions and attitudes and intentions, is a way of highlighting all the ways that even if in a global sense a person has a deep acceptance of the present moment, deep presence in the present moment, in all kinds of subtle ways that are kind of like offstage from where we pay attention, there are ways in which there are little intentions and attitudes and movements of the mind that are not doing that. And so to learn to be much more sensitive and attentive to the terrain, of the mind and the heart, so that you can be familiar with it, so that a person can really sit there in shikantaza with the whole thing without these small micro-movements that are actually not doing it, that are doing something else, chasing after desires or aversion or something.

[43:03]

So I would try, I would bring that, you know, attention to detail and some of the more detailed descriptions and highlighting of how the mind works that Vipassana specializes in. But not to take it away from Zen, but to really help the Zen be more thorough. So that's the thing about the interplay between the two of them. So I think at this point, being in the Zen world, we'll follow the schedule and... do the closing chant, and then we'll have a question and responses. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma Talks are offered free of charge, and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma.

[44:08]

For more information, please visit sfcc.org and click giving. May we all fully enjoy the Dharma.

[44:16]

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