So nice to be with you. You're joining for the second public talk. That is part of a three-week intensive on the topic of the harmony of Zen and Vipassana. Our speakers for the day are two of the three teachers involved in that intensive. Dharma friends for a long time. I understand they met as guest students here many decades ago at City Center. Both went on to ordain as priests and then received Dharma transmission from Sojin Mel Weitzman. Ryushin Paul Haller served as an abbot at City Center. And Kojin Gill Fransdahl is a senior Dharma teacher in the inside tradition. We'll go ahead with the Sutra opening verse, which you can find in the chat. Feel free to chant along with your microphones muted. surpassed penetrating and perfect dharma is rarely met with even in a hundred thousand million kaphas having it to see and listen to to remember and accept i vow to taste the truth of the

[01:21]

And Gil, the floor is yours whenever you're ready. I'll keep an eye out for Paul. You may have been having some internet difficulties. Well, I think the wise thing to do is for all of us to sit quietly and wait for Paul. That feels like the right way of beginning. So maybe Kodo-san, if you could let us know when Paul has arrived and keep an eye out for him. And if it looks like it's gonna, you decide it's gonna be longer than it should be, then I'll do something. Welcome, Ryo Shinroshi.

[03:07]

We were just sitting quietly. Thank you. Did you do the opening chant? Okay. So welcome, everyone. My apologies for being a few minutes late. I literally... simply stop paying attention to the time. Gil and I decided that we would start by attending to the question, the most important thing about practice for each of us. And apparently when I think about the most important thing, time isn't the most important thing. I want to start by formally welcoming and acknowledging Gil.

[04:17]

He has set up for himself an intense schedule of teachings and supports for his his sangha at IMC and IRC. And I am deeply grateful for him for making time to join us for this intensive. I feel blessed for knowing and practicing with Gil for decades and constantly learning from just who he is and how he is. So thank you so much, Gil, for joining us in this intensive. What we will do, we will both make some direct comments about the heart of our own practice.

[05:32]

And of course, our own is an absurd notion. Maybe how we give our heart to practice is a more appropriate way to say it. Something over more than four decades has drawn me like a passionate love affair. It feels more intimate than the beating of my heart. what this being is that I call me than the thoughts and ideas and desires and aversions that flow through it.

[06:46]

When I contemplate it, a resonance, a resonance of aliveness, as if seeing becomes a Dharma vehicle, as if the very process of breathing that the body knows more about than the mind becomes a koan, a teaching that constantly turns all the fixed notions that occur in the mind and the fixed emotions that occur in the heart

[08:00]

that rise up for me are expressed by Dogen Zenji in Bendava, where he says, all the Buddhas and all the ancestors, without exception, without deviation, have practiced in a particular way. Call that way, Jijiu Zanmai. Self and engaging and learning from the self. What it is to wake up. What it is to live in a way that's the heart's desire. But it is to live in a way that gives and receives.

[09:21]

Or maybe it's receives and gives back. And giving over to that way like a relief. It's energy. It's expansiveness. It's appreciation for being alive. It's settledness. So be it. It's confidence. Just this is it. reverberates through every aspect of being, like a great joyous compassion.

[10:37]

as it reflects on existence. Teachings arise. Sometimes it feels complete. Just this is it. Sometimes it feels bindless and mysterious. So many aspects to our existence, our collective life on this planet, and who knows beyond this planet, our collective existence in this life, and who knows beyond this planet. before and after.

[11:51]

And that mystery, rather than feeling like a shortcoming, feels like a marvelous opportunity to learn, to discover, to realize more and more dimensions of being. And somehow, all that gives birth to simple notions, like, do what you're doing. Simple notions like, Don't give up on anyone. Don't let them be defined by some negative sentiment.

[12:59]

Ferocious relationships to life. What is wholehearted Ferocious, but also absolutely charming. What an adventure this is going to be. The realm of possibilities that beginner's mind brings forth. And how, as Dogen Zenji says, all the Buddhas and all the ancestors have practiced this.

[14:15]

It seems to me in my own foolishness, that this spark is within every one of us. That something in us knows it as thoroughly as we know how to breathe. And every one of us is endeavoring each in our own way to live it, to illuminate it, and let it guide us through this human life. I would say, call it what you will. Call it Buddhism. Call it Vipassana.

[15:21]

call it Theravadin, call it Zen, call it Zogchen, or anything else. When we taste it, it quenches thirst. When we see it clearly. Neither real nor unreal defines its existence in a wonderful mode of dynamic activity. When we sit zazen, right in front of us as the coin of being alive.

[16:28]

Every aspect of our life has a teaching about it. employing and engaging continuous contact as a translation for somebody. Thank you. Thank you, Paul, very much for that and deeply appreciated and appreciate our years together and how much I've learned from you and also to the degree to which in a very nice way I feel accountable to you when I teach or when I teach with you and how I am in the world and it's very nice to have a friend like that the best of my Dharma hopefully is a chance to

[17:55]

and this accountability or this sharing of it together. So thank you. In terms of, you know, if I had just a short few minutes to express what I thought was most important about Dharma or what's been for me, I think I would start by saying that it's deeply, deeply personal. So deeply, deeply personal that the personal falls away. That it's a practice or a process of being turned inside out. So the personal that's deep inside becomes, turns inside out and kind of becomes the world. That would be the introduction. And then I would say that the heart of what I think is important or is important for me is

[19:01]

freedom from suffering. I think that it's so painful that we suffer and people suffer and they're suffering in this world. And there seems to be a natural desire, a natural momentum towards becoming free, being free of suffering. there's someone going to help with that. And that it's possible to become free of suffering. It's really possible to put one suffering to rest, to come to the end of it. And because it's possible to

[20:06]

you know, to do so. And that it's a very simple statement, suffering and the end of suffering. And it doesn't contain a lot of other teachings or I think the simplicity of that that statement brings suffering to an end kind of guides the practice to keep it on track, to keep it close to that possibility and not to get too sidetracked by other ideas of what practice should be, what it's about. And so it's possible to live a life where we distinguish between what brings us more suffering and what leads us away from it and brings an end to it.

[21:15]

And the end of suffering is a phenomenal thing. It's just one of the, I think one of the greatest ways of experiencing this human life. It's one of the... even though it's an absence of something, it's one of the most beautiful, profound, peaceful, meaningful, most happy things that I know. And I feel like that, you know, if that's all the time I had to say, I would say that's the most important thing. And then I would add, if I had more time like I do, say that the absence of suffering is a phenomenal thing. I don't really know what it is.

[22:18]

It's many things. But it's a wondrous thing. And to be in the flow of life, be in the flow of experiencing life that where the current we're riding the waves we're riding that's pulling us carrying us along is this absence of suffering kind of like an absence that makes such wondrous things possible and makes you feel that it's this is where it doesn't feel so personal in the deep personal way in which it is it's i can't say that it's no longer that I'm the one who's really in charge or doing, but there's freedom. And in that freedom, there's something that flows. And it's possible to experience that freedom and it's not the done deal that you never suffer again, but it's possible to experience in such a clear, definitive way.

[23:31]

Many people describe it in other terms than my term. Some people would have more colorful, wondrous descriptions of what that is like. But I like the simplicity of it and the clarity of ending of suffering. It's a litmus test because you can check in. Is there anything left of suffering here? There is, then there's more work to be done, more practice. But the... uh but then you know it's there's still so you know it's possible to have this deep letting go of suffering that's life-changing and then to uh still comes back then there's this wonderful interplay between the suffering and that which is free of suffering that flows through us and that and the momentum that creates or the contact between the two and how practice is born continuous practice is born in that contact and and rather than suffering being just a drag it's clear that suffering is the meeting place can be the meeting place of that inside of us that wants to practice that wants to move in the direction of freedom

[24:59]

Even if we don't want it, even if our conscious self says, you know, I don't really want to do this anymore. It's moving through us anyway. And this absence, at some point, this absence of suffering, the absence of clinging, attachment, the absence of being stuck in self and also stuck in self and others. This idea of othering people, which we do so much, as much as we make self, begins to fade enough that we become attuned to, aware of the suffering around us in the world. It's not really something that's different than ourselves, not something that has any less value than suffering or as this the flow of practice moves through us that no matter where it contacts suffering whether it's inside ourselves or in the world around us something meets it something responds to it something the desire for suffering the end of suffering is not just personal it's also the desire for

[26:29]

others as well not to suffer but still the heart of the matter is for me is suffering and the end of suffering whether it's for myself or for others and sometimes I'm quite content to suffer a little bit if what I get to do is to try to alleviate the larger suffering out in the world. And sometimes I'm quite content to have my own challenges and to practice with it. Or to let the practice practice me with it. In Theravadan Buddhism, what Paul might have been talking about, the GGU Samadhi, is very similar in my mind to the idea of, in Theravada Buddhism, there's a very famous teaching or idea that as one practices, at some point when it enters the stream, the word that's translated as stream, it means current.

[27:48]

And so we've found the current in the river. As long as you stay in the current, it carries you someplace. And so this absence of suffering, enough letting go, the absence of clinging, that we find ourselves in the current of the Dharma. And that current takes us to, just keeps taking us in the direction of freedom from suffering until it's complete. Now what we'd like to do is maybe we could say, try to be more entertaining.

[28:58]

As I was saying that before, I noticed my eyes go across the screen, sort of checking people's expressions. Do they look bored? Do they look frightened, mistrusting or whatever? Maybe think, what presentation is quite literally appealing or resonant, you know? So many ways to talk about the Dharma. So here's what we'd like to offer you next. We were musing on the question. So periodically I will go down to Gill's Retreat Center.

[30:09]

Well, it's not Gill's Retreat Center, but in a way you know what I'm talking about. Where he teaches. And we will co-teach. And then when I go there, what am I bringing? Am I going there as a Zen priest? Do I bring all my Zen outfits? Do I bring Zen chants? Do I bring a vocabulary of Zen words? Oh, in Zen, we call this the Han. In Zen, we call this the Tenzo. And of course, it's none of those, quite literally.

[31:12]

I don't bring my Zen outfits. I don't try to impose upon the situation some of the affectations of traditional Zen. And I use the word kindly. I know it can be pejorative, but inevitably our practice together will take on a certain demeanor and a certain characteristics. Once there was a teacher who came to Zen Center to give a talk. And I think I was either the Tanto or the Eno at the time. And I'd been told this teacher had no forms. And she was sitting eating dinner with a couple of students. And I said to her, how would you like to do the talk?

[32:16]

And one of her students said, she has no forms. And I thought, but you have to. You know, either you're going to sit there right at the dinner table and give it from there, or you're going to go to the back of the dining room, or you're going to go to the Buddha hall. Either you're going to bow before you start or nod. So in the end, we negotiated, and it all worked out just fine. What do I bring when I go? I bring a trust in the Buddha Dharma that the authentic heart of the practice at the retreat center will instruct me. It will teach me and instruct me on how to be there.

[33:24]

in how to harmonize and how to appreciate the forms, no forms, of the retreat center. And actually, I can't help myself but think, oh, well, this is the form. I was kidding to Gil, and I was saying, well, okay, you don't sit in a straight line, but you sit in lovely... curved lines, concentric curves, you know, they curve around the altar. One of the first things Gil said to me was, well, you and I, as the retreat leaders, we make breakfast. Exemplifying to my Zen mind, well, yes, We're one organism, and each of us plays a role in the health and utility of the organism.

[34:35]

And we're going to eat. And of course, why wouldn't we play a role in that? That's the Zen way. And then just watching how... There was an orderliness to how certain utilitarian things happen. At mealtime, we line up, the cook of the meal comes out, vows to the altar, and vows to the sangha. And my mind thinks, oh, Another Zen form. And then my mind also thinks the Buddha Dharma is neither Zen nor Vipassana, nor Thuravadan.

[35:46]

The Buddha Dharma arises in the vitality of authentic awareness in each moment. And when I listen to Gil speak, that's what I hear him say. When I watch people sitting, that's what I see. And when I think that way, and see that, it doesn't actually matter that much to me, how I dress. If Gil said to me, oh, would you wear all your Zen outfits? I'd just say, okay, whatever. He actually doesn't prescribe anything.

[36:47]

in the language that we use at Zen Center and in the Zen tradition. Inevitably, there are forms. Inevitably, you do it a certain way. But it's just the way you're doing it. It's not the forms that have to happen. Because the heart of the practice doesn't have a fixed form. doesn't have a fixed expression or presentation. And to me, that is the key to engaging forms and having them be an agent of liberation. And I watch, you know.

[37:57]

And when I see, oh, and everybody has a cleaning job, I think, well, of course, that's the Zen tradition. So in some ways, I think IRC, so-called Vipassana Retreat Center, in some ways, I actually think it's more Zen Then Zen center. And when I think that, then I feel very at home there. Maybe that's enough. Thank you. To continue on this theme of... what we bring back and forth between these traditions as we teach. So certainly I've brought a lot of Zen along with me in teaching Vipassana.

[39:06]

And I'm not always so conscious how much I'm bringing. And I'm regularly surprised by someone saying, you know, how Zen some talk was or how Zen something is. And sometimes I know, but sometimes I say, really? I thought I was trying not to be. So it's close by sometimes. And it's also changed over time what influences from Zen I bring with me into Vipassana and what I don't. And I think in my early years of teaching Vipassana, I put a much greater emphasis on they practice in the value of a real radical presence in the moment, a radical, unconditional acceptance of this moment, a mindfulness where there's nothing more that needs to be done than a very thorough, complete awareness of the moment.

[40:12]

And that there's something complete about each moment of mindfulness and something profound about it, where there's no need for it to be different. And no reaching out for other states of meditation or states of realization or anything that's beyond that moment. And I think I taught that a lot in the early years, much more. And then at some point, I began feeling that that way I taught, as much as I thought it was, I still think it's a profound teaching. It's something I want to convey. I want people to understand that together with the idea that there is progress along the path. We do grow and mature and develop along the path as well. And sometimes if people don't know that, then the radical unconditional acceptance or being just here with no goal at all can lead to a kind of...

[41:19]

maybe complacency, stagnation. I kind of just kind of everything's okay. And so we don't really need to go anywhere. And sometimes I see that that leads to people's suffering, continuing to suffer and a kind of an acceptance of their suffering as well. And so in Vipassana then over these more recent times, I've switched my teachings to be a little bit more Theravada in the sense of talking about Theravada, you know, some of the progress and development about the path and some of the things like deepening states of meditation and how that works and including sometimes talking about states of realization, which I did in a way that I never would have done in much of my career as a teacher. when I gave my little few minutes on the most important thing, and I talked about entering the stream, I pulled away.

[42:24]

I was actually very resistant, very doctrinally opposed to even getting close to that concept for decades. But now I have this feeling that it actually supports people to mention it. And people have a sense that, yes, there is something. If there is an end of suffering, it's really possible. But what the balance is between these two is the art of it all. And to be too concerned about getting someplace is still a problem. And one of the great Vipassana teachings that I heard from a teacher named Heather Martin, she said, the fastest way to go from A to B is to be fully at A. And that statement kind of, for me, ties together. It allows for both. It allows for the possibility of being, of coming to the end of suffering. And it's understood that the way there is to really be here in a full way.

[43:29]

And then, if I was going to come to Zen Center to teach at Zen Center, and I was going to bring some of my Vipassana with me to Zen Center in my teaching, even if I didn't plan to do it, probably these days, if I came to just gave a pure Zen talk, chances are people would say, that was pretty Vipassana-like. And I would say, really? I was just trying to do Zen. So the way these are integrated in me, I can't quite get away from them. But if I was going to consciously bring some kind of Vipassana teachings as a way of supporting Zen practice, and that would really be the attitude to support it, it would be... Try to convey a certain very healthy and inspiring intolerance for suffering. To not have some kind of left with some kind of practice of just being with things as they are, and then continue to suffer better, just suffer with it.

[44:42]

but to have some idea of, you know, not be stuck in suffering, not be. And then, and the way, and one thing I would contribute from the Zen tradition is in order to make Shikhand, help people Shikhandtaza better, really show up more fully for what's here without even a goal, is to the careful attention to detail that's in Vipassana. to mind states and thinking and emotions and attitudes and intentions is a way of highlighting all the ways that even if in a global sense, a person has a deep acceptance of the present moment, deep presence in the present moment, in all kinds of subtle ways that are kind of like offstage from where we pay attention. There are ways in which there are little intentions and attitudes and movements of the mind. that are not doing that.

[45:44]

And so to learn to be much more sensitive and attentive to the terrain of the mind and the heart, so that you can be familiar with it, so that a person can really sit there in Shikantaza with the whole thing without these small micro movements that are actually not doing it, that are doing something else, chasing after desires or aversion or something. So I would bring that attention to detail and some of the more detailed descriptions and highlighting of how the mind works that Vipassana specializes in. But not to take it away from Zen, but to really help the Zen be more thorough. So that's something about the interplay between the two of them. So I think at this point, being in the Zen world, we'll follow the schedule and do the closing chant, and then we'll have a question and responses.

[47:06]

So, okay, Kodo? equally extend to every being and place with the true merit of Buddha's way. Beings are numberless, I vow to save them. Delusions are inexhaustible, I vow to end them. Dharma gates are boundless. I vow to enter them. Buddha's way is unsurpassable. I vow to become it. So just a brief moment for our customary announcements as we transition into some conversation. The first is a reminder of our practice here at Zen Center to move up or move back.

[48:11]

And that's an encouragement. for participation. To note who's speaking and who's not, and if you tend to speak often, consider moving back to make space and vice versa. Second announcement is we're in the midst of our spring fundraiser called the Zenathon. I believe many of you have heard me speak about this at the end of DharmaTalk, so I'll put the link into the chat. Please know you're welcome to explore this page and it's this circle of generous support that keeps the temple going. Thank you very much. Feel free to raise your Zoom hand if you'd like, and we can continue. Good morning, Gil and Paul.

[49:30]

Thank you for speaking this morning. Gil, I really appreciated hearing you talk about finding the balance between being here and also being fully here and also acknowledging that there's growth and development on the path. And I myself have found great inspiration in that, that knowing that there's a bee, it inspires me more fully to be with A. And I can see how that can go awry and I can start grasping for B and fantasizing about B and then not really be here. I'd be interested just to hear both of you talk a little bit more about, yeah, about there being a path and being a goal along with the more classically Zen teaching of no gaining mind, no step ladders in, nowhere to go, nothing to be.

[50:34]

So yeah, I'd just like to hear you both speak about that a little bit more. Please go. Okay. Maybe it's not answering your question directly, but one of the... you know, advantages or one of the potentials of really clear mindfulness, attention to the detail, attention to the moment that's really sensitive to all the different things that are flowing through and occurring is that we can feel any, the movement, any movement that brings suffering, any movement of stress or strain. And so if we're fully sitting at A, But in the back of the mind, we're really hoping for B. We're like, I'm going to do this A, but looking at your wristwatch, I'm not there yet.

[51:37]

When am I going to get there? That's just more suffering. But to overemphasize being here, you can feel sometimes that there might be some suffering in that as well. There might be some attachment. It might be attachment to the idea that this is the right practice. I think this is all, or there's some way the mind gets limited and we're holding back from allowing the flow, the current to carry us or something. So I put a tremendous trust in the value of real careful attention that learns to recognize and be able to smell and feel and sense where suffering arises. And then everything takes care of itself. So if you're goal-oriented, you're mostly focused on B, it's a fine thing to be focused on B. There's no crime in wanting to get somewhere and attain something in practice. But you want to cleanse yourself of any attachments that's connected to that.

[52:41]

There's no crime in just wanting to be fully at A, but it's good to clean up any attachment that comes along with that. And the important work is that freedom from attachment. And you can do the work just as well either way. For some of us, you know, one of those ways works better than the other way in terms of helping that process. You think that, you know, I gave you half the answer before Paul has this chance, but does this address your question adequately enough for now? Yes, Gil, thank you. That was wonderful. Koto, do you want to call on people or do you want us to do it? I'll continue if that's okay with the two of you. It's fine with me. Okay with you, Gil? Have Koto call on people? Yeah, yeah, it's fine. Completely fine. Great. Glenda?

[53:43]

Good morning, Gil and Paul. Can you hear me? Yes. So I don't know that I specifically have a question, but would appreciate some comment. My practice Zendo is work. It has been for a long time. Worked with Paul for many years and he's fully aware of that. And I have just recently stepped into a new position that is completely unknown to me. been thinking it's kind of like at Zen Center being maybe once in a while chopping vegetables in the kitchen and suddenly being promoted to Tenzo and having to know the workings and be more fully immersed in it. And I'm finding that I'm just experiencing all of this resistance.

[54:58]

that's coming up. And with my Zen practice, I know that sitting in that, sitting at A and fully experiencing that resistance as it's happening allows me to honor that and also see how it's not a solid thing, that it breaks up, you know, and there are pockets where there isn't that resistance. And I can feel that flow that you're talking about. But I'm interested, and as I talk, ideas come up for me about the curiosity, you know, and having curiosity about this new situation that I'm in and feeling the overwhelm and feeling all the resistance and how curiosity about that can assist that movement of A to B. We go back and forth, Paul, so maybe your turn.

[56:12]

Okay. It reminds me, Glenda, of the core teaching of impermanence. Like, when we establish something like just this is it, it can feel like, okay, that's the conclusion. End of story, you know? But no, it's just a fleeting moment in this stream, in the current of impermanence. And it's that curiosity that really helps us to not just simply become complacent. That keeps contributing a certain aliveness. Okay, now what?

[57:13]

I think those two statements go together. Just this is it, now what? Affirmation. and then the imperative of appropriate response. And hopefully the affirmation creates a foundation. I think within our human consciousness, it creates a stabilization. Like many times I've heard teachers say, well, you have to stabilize the self before you can forget the self or drop off the self. Something similar. And maybe, Glenda, within the context of your work, whether you recognized it or not, someone,

[58:26]

recognized your capacity to be competently just this is it. And from that place of competence and stabilization, they thought, and now this. And hopefully, and I would suggest the imperative now is as you move into new context, a new situation, to new learning, that there's sraddha, there's a trust and confidence in your own being, in how you do what you do. And then I have, knowing you well, I have this confidence that you will not come from an arrogant place, but A curious place. Okay, well, now where am I?

[59:29]

Now what am I dealing with? And how will I deal with it? I feel like those are the questions that keep the practice alive. They give it an aliveness. They give it a curiosity and a connection. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Maybe it's interesting for everyone for me to offer an additional perspective on this that you'll see what Paul said. I could it was beautiful and I could I could easily have said the same thing as a Vipassana teacher. And I have at times. And so I don't want in any way detracted from what he said. But as a since we're kind of some of you are interested in the difference between Zen and Vipassana. least in terms of the american here in the united states and the insight movement vipasta movement it does have a little bit of a or some people say a lot a psychological emphasis maybe more psychology and psychotherapy comes into play at times so i if i took that kind of a little bit more approach then what i would do when you come here and bring up your concern glenda i would ask you uh

[60:49]

maybe two questions, I would ask, what's wise about your resistance? And you would maybe say something, and I might also ask, follow that by saying, what's foolish about your resistance? And then after you've come with answer to that, then I might ask a third question, which is, seeing what's wise and seeing what's foolish about it, now what are you gonna do? that's a little different flavor whether that's interesting or not it's you get a flavor a little bit of maybe something that i would i would do as a vipassana teacher maybe there's no reason i can't do it as a zen teacher either it's not something different you know it's just like some of these differences we see between the traditions has sometimes more to do with the emphasis than you know real differences and so but there is a psychological emphasis sometimes in

[61:51]

in the Vipassana world. And I suspect, yeah, so. Yeah. Well, thank you. Those questions are helpful. Our next question is from Keith. And Keith, I understand you can paste the question directly in the chat. Thumbs up. So I should look at the chat. Can you read it to me, please, Keith? I can read it on Keith's behalf. Thank you. Yes. Oh, I see. Maybe I understand why it's this way. Thank you. Yeah, if you could read it, help me. Just a moment. Here it is.

[63:15]

Keith writes, Gil, in looking back to earlier on the talk, could you contrast the difference between seeking to end suffering versus seeking that which simply is not suffering? If this sounds like splitting hairs, it's really just a question about seeking anything at all. It seems that dodging suffering is not 100%. And that on some level, we don't really want it to be. Yet, not seeking sounds like it's missing the mark too. Thank you, Keith. Yes, I think that it's certainly possible to recognize what is not suffering. And in doing so, suffering begins to melt away. Or our... enchantment with suffering melts away. A fair amount of suffering has to do with our enchantment with it, our preoccupation with it, our concern with it.

[64:26]

It's, you know, that is also, you know, can actually make the suffering worse. But also looking at what doesn't suffer can also be a way of avoiding suffering. And And then people will continue suffering, but just kind of underground, kind of in the background. And it can have a huge impact on people's behavior and life and experience if they're kind of suffering, but not really conscious of it. So and then just a question about seeking anything at all. If I understand the question, I know there's sometimes a feeling that Buddhism says that desire is a cause of suffering, so you shouldn't have any desire, including the desire to end suffering. I think this is a misunderstanding of certainly the early Buddhist teachings, that what causes suffering is not desire, but rather is compulsive desire.

[65:33]

And there are healthy desires. There's no need to let go of it. or no need to let go of it until it gets in the way. But desires have an important role. Seeking has an important role until it's no longer helpful. And it seems that dodging suffering is not 100%. I don't think we want to dodge suffering at all. I'd prefer that people stand and face it as it comes. uh really learn the ability to hold your ground to stand and you metaphorically you know up for yourself and just here comes suffering here's my suffering and just like learn to look at it you know right i see you i'm here and um you know and and uh even play chicken with it if necessary it's gonna who's gonna you know stop first Or something like that.

[66:35]

You don't want to dodge suffering. You want to really address it and look at it and practice with it and find your peace, find your shikantaza, find your equanimity, find your being fully at A in a powerful and freeing way with the suffering and not by dodging it. And that it is possible to end suffering. That's a fundamental belief that I have. fundamental possibility I live my life on. And so you don't want to dodge it or you avoid it or that you really want to, you know, sooner or later, you need to face it and have some relationship to it where it has a chance to really dissolve or let go or unravel. So you can type in more, Keith, if there's something I didn't address. It was an important question. So if it didn't address it, You're welcome to say more. Keith writes, no, that's splendid.

[68:04]

The middle way key is there, not obsessing. Thanks. Thank you. Our next question is from David A. Hi, I have a question that I'd like a little help with. So, you know, there's this tendency of the mind to like kind of like play out or act out like logical scenarios that I have seen pop up within me. Prior to recently, like for the last year and a half of my finding about meditation and mindfulness, I've been very good at like saying, okay, like peace of mind is right above being right. You know, like I don't have to be right right now. But for some reason, I've been like having this like right, logical, acting out of these mental landscape scenarios happening.

[69:12]

And it's like reoccurring patterns, like the same thought, same thought. I'm like, wow, this is like how I used to live my life where the same thoughts are popping up over and over. And I'm like, okay, this is interesting. Like, I really want to address this to see how I can come out of this or like what I can learn maybe so I can help others in the future that, you know, to explain it because my old techniques aren't working like they used to, right? So it's like, oh, this is okay. I hope this is going to be the rest of my life, you know, where I'm like back into this mode of playing out these scripts and like doing these like one plus one logical scenario. Oh, look, this is a great point. Yeah, good point here. Good point there. So... It's an interesting scenario and I'd like to present it and see if you guys have any insight in how to watch this monkey mind pattern and what I can possibly do to be more skillful in this regard. Thank you.

[70:12]

I'll say something briefly, Gil, and leave you time to say it. David, there's a teaching in Zen and maybe beyond Zen. It's called riding the robber's horse to catch the robber. It's like using that kind of discerning state of mind, state of consciousness to explore it more thoroughly. When we make a statement about reality, there's... implicit things that are assumed within that statement. And so when I say that, what am I saying? What am I assuming that allows that statement to be so? So if the mind's in a discerning state, then rather than thinking, okay, totally stop that.

[71:22]

and be something else. Use that. When I'm saying that, what am I assuming? When I say that, what's the I that's arising then? And that statement about objective reality, what's assumed within it? Is there an assumed value? This is the right way to practice. Oh, what is right? You know? So that. That would be one way you could work with it. It's a suggestion. So please go. Okay. Maybe Kodo or someone. There's someone who's trying to get in from the waiting room. So I don't know if that's what the protocol is at this point. Well, I'll have a look. Thank you. So, David... to offer something to you.

[72:24]

I think what you described is a composite. What you described is made up of many elements. And so if you want to be fully present for it, it's good to kind of see the different elements that are at play. And then it might have more clarity. And just seeing more clearly what's going on might be enough. And so one of the things that I would, you know, especially this would be something that maybe the Vipassana teacher would be inclined to ask. And that is when you're thinking this way, caught up in this kind of mind, what's the emotion that's fueling it? Do you have any sense? Oh, absolutely. It's I feel it in my chest. I feel this like kind of tightness. And it's like agitation, it's this frustration, you know, I feel like this, this kind of like, like that, like, and it's the same feeling over and over and it's suffering.

[73:28]

It's actually a feeling of, it's agitation. Yeah. And so then in Vipassana practice, I might do this if I was doing an interview with a student, like in a retreat, I might do this with you. And that is, I would ask you to close your eyes and then Feel that contraction in your chest. Feel the frustration. And give your, you know, being fully at A is be really fully at, in that feeling of frustration or pain or whatever you feel. And let's see what happens when you bring really careful care to it, as if it's never had a chance to be in the sun, the sun of awareness. And finally, you'll get permission to be there in a way you've never done before, and you're going to get to know it. What happens to that contraction, the chest, the frustration, if you offer that kind of care, caring attention?

[74:30]

The connection of the thought process, the logical wrangling, is so quick to this frustration, it quickly follows. And I'm getting caught up in that stream of thought. you're intending to say I should slow down and just feel it fully. And what happens when this logical game, this scenario, just pops up? Like, just not jump into the stream? I think it would be nice to try to stay in the chest. It would really give time. And then if And if that doesn't work for you because the mind is taking over so much, then at some point, maybe you should be heartbroken. It's a really sad way of living. Maybe it's time to grieve.

[75:32]

Ah, okay. I see what you're saying. Yeah, that actually resonates in a In the past, that's what I did. That's what happened for me to not jump into the thought was I grieved and I cried and I let it out and then the thought stopped coming. So now that you mention that, that's actually exactly what happened in the past. So you might need some good time to cry for a while and that might connect you to something that's deeper and deeper roots to all this. Thank you. And the fascinating thing is, David, the way you described it, I thought you were describing a compulsion to keep thinking. And of course, the compulsion to keep thinking excludes feeling. And so the discernment would be, if you're stuck, you see, in a way I was saying, if you're stuck there, be stuck there and use it.

[76:41]

And then Gilda offered the other side, which was, well, are you stuck there? I mean, maybe you can see what's fueling the stuckness. It's so, to have almost like a repertoire of possible responses. And then see, explore, which is most appropriate here? So that ride the robber's horse, it's like, it's assuming stuckness. Okay, I can't stop thinking about this. Okay, well then, think about it. And then, as Gil so rightly pointed out, and you verified, oh, you know what? That happens. That's exactly my emotional condition.

[77:45]

Or that has been on occasions exactly my emotional condition. Thank you. So that brings us to the end of our time. I'm sorry to say I'm enjoying this conversation so much as I imagine many others are. I apologize for anyone... who didn't get a chance to ask a question. I also know there's at least one person who had a real hand raised that's difficult to track in these large rooms. So my apologies for anyone who didn't get a chance. And I just want to thank the whole assembly and thank you, Gil-san. Thank you, Paul-san. And would either of you like to offer a closing word or shall we say farewell? I think it would be lovely if you did, Gil. I'm speechless. So my closing words, with all the peace and ease and equanimity and compassion and love you can muster, be intolerant to your suffering.

[79:03]

Okay. Thank you. Do you feel like now another closing word is needed? But to add another closing word, it might detract from the profundity and the appropriateness of what you said, Gil. So I will simply bow in gratitude. Thank you, everyone, very much for this time. Yes, indeed. Thanks, everybody. Thanks so much. Thank you so much. Thank you. Bye-bye. Thank you. That was wonderful. Thank you. Thank you, Paul. Thank you, Gil. Thank you. Thank you. What an amazing thing, the ever-changing screen, the cacophony of voices and

[80:10]

Much love to everyone. Thank you. Thank you, Gil. Thank you, Paul. You're very welcome. Thank you, Gil and Paul. Your wisdom and kindness. You're very welcome. And Fu, the answer to your question in the chat is yes. Thank you. Have a great weekend. You too. Thank you for the heart of the practice. Thank you for sharing. Paul, I'll see you on Zoom in 10 minutes. Thank you so much. Thank you. Okay. Thank you, everyone.

[81:27]

Thank you, Kodo.

[81:28]

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