This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Standing meditation is a venerable practice, and I just wanted to mention something about standing in a balanced way. and you can practice this during the day, there's a kind of circle. If this were your foot, this is the heel of your foot, there's a circle right about here, not too far back and not forward of the foot. It's part of the heel, there's a kind of circle. And if you're, this is from Patricia Sullivan, the yoga teacher I study with, that circle, if you can stand, find that circle, not be tipped even a little tiny bit, it's very energizing.

[01:10]

You can stand for a long time. So see if you can find that particular circle right a little bit in from the back of the heel. So the Dharma talk today will be a Dharma talk about, I don't know what it will be about, but I'm going to bring up our Zazen practice and also turn some questions that I've been turning for a long time and want to turn with you of how it is that we practice What is our practice? There's a quote in Zui Mon Ki, which is kind of recorded conversations between Dogen Zenji and his disciple Ko On Ejo Da Hyo Sho.

[02:23]

And in this exchange, Dogen says, when doing zazen, Or when we sit zazen, what precept is not observed? What merit is not actualized? And I think in Suzuki Roshi's talks through the years, you can find him saying zazen and precept practice are the same or non-dual. So this is, you know, the theme of the practice period that we're in. This is for those of you who have come, who aren't in residence at Green Gulch. This is the 60th practice period at Green Gulch, and the theme is practicing the precepts. And precepts are not separate from Zazen practice, and Zazen and precepts are inter-ar, inter-ar.

[03:27]

So I've been turning that and want to turn it the whole practice period. So I wanted to bring up one of our ancestors and his exchanges with his teacher and then come back to Zazen and how we understand Zazen and our practice of Zazen. So the ancestor I wanted to bring up is, these are Chinese ancestors, but we often know them by their Japanese names because we recite them regularly in Japanese. So in Japanese, it's yaku-san i-gen. Yaku-san means medicine, mountain. And the i-gen, I just found out, means dignity personified. Dignity personified.

[04:29]

And in Chinese it's yaoshan weyian, yaoshan. Medicine is yaku or yao, and shan or san is mountain. So this is medicine mountain, dignity personified. And his teacher was also someone we chant regularly. In Chinese, shirto, in Japanese, seki to kisen daio sho. And seki to kisen wrote Harmony of Difference and Equality, that poem. So he's a revered teacher, and we chant the poem regularly, daily, I think, in some temples, this Harmony of Difference and Equality with this song of enlightenment. So I'm going to tell a story that happened a little bit later than when they first began to practice together.

[05:32]

And this story is, Yaku-san or Yaoshan was sitting Zazen, and Shirtu came up to him, came over to him and said, what are you doing? And Yaoshan said, I'm not doing anything. And Shirtu said, well, if you're not doing anything, then you're sitting idly. And Yaoshan said, if I were sitting idly, then I'd be doing something. And Shurtu said, you say you're not doing anything. What is this that you're not doing? And Yaoshan said, not even the 10,000 sages know. or not even the 10,000 sages can say. And Shirtu, Sekito, Shirtu praised him greatly after this in a verse.

[06:38]

And the verse says, Though we've been living in the same place, I do not know his name. We go along with the flow of nature, being just so. Even the eminent sages of old don't know him. How could ordinary people understand? So this is the verse of praise to his student, Shirtos, praise to Yaoshang. Although we've been living together for a long time, I don't know his name. We just go along together with the flow of nature, being just so. Not even the eminent sages of the past know him. How could ordinary people understand? So this very simple exchange, what are you doing?

[07:40]

He's sitting there. He's probably cross-legged posture sitting. Mudra. What are you doing? I'm not doing anything. Well, then you're just sitting around idling. wasting time, daydreaming. Yeah. And then Yao Shan says, well, if I were sitting around idly, that would be doing something. That would be sitting around idly. Well, you say you're not doing anything. What is it you're not doing? And Yao Shan says, not even the 10,000 sages can say. It can't be said exactly what it is. It's beyond the ability to say. And Shusso, in his talk the other night, kind of brought up a similar story about what's zazen and non-zazen, and then, you know, what's non-zazen?

[08:48]

It's alive. And Albert said it very loudly, it's alive. And when something's alive, you know, as soon as you say what it is, it's already changed. It's already not that. It's already beyond our nailing it and thinking we know then what it is and we've got it then. Now we know. Now I know what Zazen is. It's this. And all of a sudden it's dead. It's this idea, this thing. And what zazen is, the alive zazen, or the zazen that not even the 10,000 sages can say what it is. Somehow it's not flowing along, being just so. Being just so is, that's not, being just so is being just so, being just so, being just so, being just so.

[09:53]

It's not some place we get to, and that's it. So this story is, you know, we're about to, we have been sitting the morning, and we'll be sitting all day, and, you know, what is our understanding of what zazen is? Or do we have some fixed idea or some goal in mind or some idea or something we're trying to get to, a state or a altered reality or a special, some kind of special feeling, special place? And I think for each one of us we can ask ourselves, You know, what are we doing? That's what he said to Yao Shan.

[10:57]

What are you doing here? Which I think is a good question for us for one day sitting. What are we doing here? It's a question for me. What am I doing here? So I want to back up a little bit with Yao Shan and Sher Tu a little bit earlier in their life together and which has to do with practicing of the precepts. And I think this poem that praises him actually is echoing something that happened earlier with them together. So it's celebrating many encounters, actually, not just this one of this question while he's sitting. So Yaku-san was ordained very young, as was not all that uncommon, maybe 16 or 17 years old, and he took the full precepts.

[12:12]

We were talking about this in the precepts class, the Bodhisattva precepts and the number of precepts, and then earlier old wisdom school or old school precepts. numbers of precepts, 250 precepts or more. So he practiced and took all those precepts, 250 precepts, and practiced very, very thoroughly, with the canonical teachings and letter of the law, these precepts. And he did this for a while. And he was then in Shurto's temple, or found Shurto, to say to him, you know, I have been practicing with these teachings, you know, scrupulously for quite a long time. And, you know, this can't be what Buddha Dharma is, this, you know, minute attention to these details of deportment and...

[13:23]

I've heard that there's this practice of pointing directly to the mind. And please, you know, help me with this. And Shirtu said, being just so won't do, and not being so won't do. And being just so and not being just so completely won't do. How about you? And Yaoshan was, he had nothing to say. I mean, he was kind of speechless. And Shirtu said, your affinity isn't here. Go study with Matsu in Japanese as Baso. Master Ma, very famous teacher. And the Rinzai line kind of came from that Matsu.

[14:30]

And they were like brothers in the Dharma. They both had the same teacher and went back to Huinang, the sixth ancestor. So Shurto and Matsu, they would send students to one another. They lived on different mountains, different monasteries. highly respected each other, and sent students back and forth. So he said, you're... So after Yaoshan had said, you know, I've been practicing the precepts, just to the nth degree, you know, completely, and still I have anxiety. I'm not settled. I don't understand. Please help me. And so Shirtu said, not being so won't do. Not practicing in that way. Carefully, impeccably, with conventional life, that won't do. But also, practicing this way, that won't do. And doing both, that's not going to do at all. It's just confusing. How about you? What's alive?

[15:32]

He didn't say, what's alive? He said, how about you? And Yao Shan... couldn't say anything. So he said, your affinity's not here. Shurtu said, go to Matsu. So he went to Matsu and he related the same story to him. I've been practicing with precepts and the canonical teachings and all these very, very carefully and polycanon things. And I'm still not at peace. I have anxiety. Please help me. And Matsu heard what happened at Shirtu's place. So Matsu said, sometimes I have him raise his eyebrows and blink. And sometimes I don't have him raise his eyebrows and blink. And sometimes I have him raise his eyebrows and don't have him raise his eyebrows and blink. How about you? And at that point,

[16:39]

Yaoshan had some realization, big realization, and bowed to Matsu. And Matsu said, you know, what's this bow, what's this all about? And he said, when I was at Shirtu's place, I was like a mosquito mounted on an iron ox or an iron bull, an iron if you could hold that or allow that image to sink in. I was like a mosquito mounted on top of the back of this iron ox. And Matsu said, your teacher is sure to go back to him. Now, you know, for a long time I wondered, why did he say that?

[17:46]

He woke up with Matsu. That's his teacher, you know. That's the one he has affinity with. And when he was at Shirtus, he was like stunned. He had nothing to say, no realization. He was like a mosquito mounted on this iron ox with, you know, if you imagine a mosquito with the, I always forget this word, proboscis. Say it again? Proboscis. Proboscis. Picture the mosquito with that insy-beensy proboscis. Proboscis. Trying to, you know, get a hold. Get in a little bit. Just, uh. And it was like iron. There is no place to get a hold, to have something, to have an understanding.

[18:48]

And this image comes up later in the practice period. You'll see this comes up in the Shuso ceremony at the end of our practice period. This experience of there is whatever I try, you know, Acting this way, that's not going to do. Not acting this way, that's not going to do. Doing both, that's really not going to. How about you? And he said he was like a mosquito. It's almost like I can't bear it, you know. And how often do we feel that way? It's like you hear the teachings, I hear the teachings, and... They give me no place to hide, you know? There's no place to get a, just can I have a little bit of a handhold, just those fingernails, just, eh, now I got it. Now I can start getting something for myself and climbing higher and higher.

[19:53]

But it's glass mountain or mosquito biting an iron bull. And Matsu's... you know, when he said, I was like a mosquito biting an iron bowl, Matsu said, your affinity was with him. With Shirtu, you were a true person. So this kind of, to me, maybe I'll come back to this now, maybe just let that sort of percolate. So in our Zazen, you know, we can ask ourselves, what is zazen? And there's many lineages and teachings about meditation. We often translate zazen for like a brochure or something as sitting meditation or zen meditation. And that's fine, I think, to use zazen when somebody doesn't,

[20:58]

would like to do a retreat, a meditation retreat, but they're offering zazen. I don't know what that is. So it's a skillful means, I think, to translate it. However, in Dogen's Fukan Zazengi, the universal guidelines or admonitions for zazen, Dogen says specifically, the zazen I speak of is not learning meditation. And there were plenty... in Dogen's time, in our time, in all times, plenty of lineages and practices of meditation. He's saying, it's not how to, the zazen I speak of, and the zazen that, Dogen zazen, you know, and the teachers that flowed from Dogen that have come down to Suzuki Roshi, and the zazen I speak of is not learning meditation. So, There's a term, shuzen.

[22:00]

Shu means kind of a mental training for seated meditation, shuzen. So zazen, seated meditation, and shuzen, a certain kind of mental training. And zazen is not shuzen, and there's been some... confusion maybe about this over the centuries, Bodhidharma, who came from India to China and sat, as the teaching story goes, sat wall-gazing or being like a wall for nine years, facing the wall. Some people said he was doing shuzen. And Dogen specifically says he was not doing shuzen. He was doing zazen, he was practicing zazen, whatever that is. That is, and in our admonitions for zazen, the zazen I speak of is not learning meditation, it is the dharma gate of repose and bliss, the practice realization of totally culminated enlightenment.

[23:19]

Traps and snares can't reach it. You know, it's free. It's alive. It's alive like a tiger taking to the mountains. Or a dragon, you know, entering the water. Dragons live in water. And tigers, you know, live in... It's like coming home. You can't even say traps and snares of words, traps and snares of, oh, it's this or it's that or it's... Can't get it. Just like when something's alive, you can't... Tentatively we can say something, maybe we have to say something, but to know it can't be caught in that way. Not even the 10,000 sages can say. So we can...

[24:23]

We can ask ourselves when we practice sazen and we have a day-long sitting, we can ask some pretty fundamental questions and personal questions, intimate questions, because it's, you know, one question might be, Am I trying to get out of my life using Sazen? Using, you know, creating some kind of conditions where I can then lift out of problems and sadness and longing and grief and, you know, is that what I'm up to? This is a very intimate question.

[25:25]

Is that how I'm, is that what I'm about? And however we answer that, that's that, however we answer that. But I think it's very important to know and to not fool ourselves. Our usual way of... and I say we, our usual way is thinking in a conventional, conventional way is I do things and I get things and I accomplish things and we think in that way and it's a conventional way of thinking that we share and it, and there's nothing the matter with it, but I think it's important to know this is one way of operating, you know, one way of thinking, and it's a shared way, and there are, you know, just like Yaku-san said, Yaoshan said, you know, I've been working in this particular way for impeccably trying to practice in this way, and I still haven't understood

[26:53]

I'm practicing the precepts in order to, you know, be a good person or accomplish what I'm supposed to. And still I don't feel fully at peace, you know. So, but this is standard operating instructions or operating how you operate lots and lots of times. And when we sit, we can see, is that how I'm operating? I want to get something out of this. And if so, we may be creating for ourselves conditions for a certain kind of mental and emotional and psychological, I would say, stress and dissatisfaction and tightness, maybe.

[27:54]

working towards something, trying to get something. So one might think, well, I don't know how else to approach it. I don't know how else to, well, I don't see any alternative. And if you say, this way won't do, And not that way won't do. Like, well, then do I stop sitting altogether? That's not going to do. But if I'm sitting with gaining idea and trying to get something and trying... That's not going to do. And both of them together is just confused. Now what? How about you? What's that? What are we doing? And what's the difference between... Shuzan and Zazen, you know. In Phukhan Zazengi, this admonitions, the beginning, it says, the way is perfect and all-pervading and doesn't depend on practice and realization.

[29:15]

The Dharma gate is free and untrammeled. What need is there for concentrated effort? And the whole body of reality is far beyond the dust. Who could believe in a means to brush it clean? This brush it clean is like some method by which we get to a place where then we're gonna be okay. That's the shining, taking the dust off, Of what, you know? And then Dogen says, you know, right where we are, there's no use to run around looking for ways to be okay and going off into the dusty realms of other lands. You can sit right here on your... However...

[30:20]

Yet, and yet, if there's a hair's breadth deviation, the way is as different as heaven from earth. I used to think it was a hair's breadth, like the breathing of a hair, which probably hairs do breathe, but it's the hair's breadth. It's like a mosquito's proboscis. It's like a hair's breadth, maybe even tinier. I don't know how many microns. If there's that much difference, the way is as distant as heaven from earth. And then more instructions from Dogen. If the least like or dislike arises, the least, the mind is lost in confusion. Should I go this way? Should I do that? Follow my breath. Maybe I should uncross. Maybe I should get up. Maybe I should leave.

[31:21]

This was a mistake, you know. Which you're free to do, actually. You know this. If there's the least, the mind is lost in confusion. So then there's more, you know, without getting involved in good or bad or gauging of thoughts and views, gauging is, you park your worries at the door, isn't that a song? Park your, leave your worries as, you know, and your concerns and your affairs, leave them at the door and just sit down. And practice Zazen. And it's like, well, what is Zazen, you know? And with these admonitions, you might feel also like a mosquito biting a night-earned bull. You're saying, that's not okay to try and, but not practicing, but how do I practice?

[32:27]

Help. That's how I feel sometimes. So, what's the difference between learning meditation and Zazen I speak of is not learning meditation and Zazen. So our physical posture that we take is a yogic posture, whether it's cross-legged or it's seiza, you know, with our legs back kneeling, or sitting in a chair. All these postures basically provide similar things. They provide stability, you know, a seat. They... whatever posture, you know, we make an effort to sit upright and not lean side to side or forward and backward.

[33:37]

And now, this is interesting, you know, when we hear our Zazen instructions, we often hear, you know, straighten the back. Straighten the back. And if we do that from an Outside perspective, I have to straighten my back or pull up in some way. There may be an image of what straight back is, and I'm going to try and fit that image, or I know what a straight back is, some idea of straight back. But I think upright sitting, straight back, upright spine, comes from the inside out. actually bringing our attention in, in, in to the vertebrae, that, you know, that the back is not some, like, broomstick thing. It's, you know, vertebrae balance with spongy, liquidy, puffy things in between that are alive.

[34:44]

They're totally alive with movement and blood flow and who knows what else, but it's alive and changing moment by moment, changing with each breath, changing throughout the day, with after we eat, you know, the posture is alive. It's alive. So to have some idea in mind, I have to have a straight back, and I'm going to make myself into that shape, may actually be... counterproductive or not even productive, but may not be supportive and stable and alive, maybe based on some idea. So to throw away the ideas of what it's supposed to look like and come into the body, into the body-mind, and bring our attention to our body-mind,

[35:48]

rather than to just the mind and trying to match some idea. Forget about the ideas and bring our attention into the body and breath and feel a lengthening from the inside. And this is, I think, similar to Alexander technique and yoga practice and many other, probably Tai Chi and We have to start with our own bodies rather than some idea of what the ideal body is supposed to look like. And come close and intimate with what we call a back, which is actually not even the 10,000 sages know what a back is. It's so alive. Uchiyama Roshi, who many of you maybe have read his works or his student Okamura, Shohaku Okamura, you know, Uchiyama Roshi's practice was just sitting and he didn't, for a session or one day sitting, there would be no chanting and no Dharma talk and no very, I think, oryoki, but then quick break and back to sitting.

[37:17]

Sitting, sitting, sitting was the main practice. And this is a quote of his about what Zazen is. An effort continuously, so there's effort involved, to continuously aim at, I can't read my writing here, to continuously aim at the correct sitting posture with flesh and bones and to leave everything to that. So this is not, this really is far from gaining idea. It's an opening.

[38:19]

which was someone's intention for the practice period, to surrender, to open to body-mind, but with effort, you know, to aim, and it's an interesting word, to aim at the correct posture, whatever that is, with the flesh and bones, to aim with our flesh and bones. rather than some idea, come into the flesh and bones, the marrow, and with effort, aim at correct posture, but no idea of what it's supposed to be. Just aim and leave everything to that, which is a kind of, and see what happens. There's a kind of, I would say, trust, opening and trust to don't know mind, rather like a mosquito biting an iron bull.

[39:32]

Matsu said to him, after he said I was like a mosquito biting an iron bull, yes, just like that, with no place to get a hold, just like that. He said you were a true person. He didn't know he was a true person. back with Shurto. But that experience, or that, I don't even know that, that just this, of no place to get a hold, and kind of giving up, you know, no words left, just that, just this. And in that, you know, praising, it says, though I've known him, We've been living in the same place for a long time. I don't know what to call them. Traps and snares can't reach it. Because it's the whole of Buddha Dharma. It's the whole of awakened existence. Right there in our little old me, little old us, Zazen, you know?

[40:38]

We go, I don't know what to say, we go along with the flow of nature, being just so. So being just so, not being just so, trying this out and trying that out, but being completely who we are with no idea of trying to get anything, like the mosquito. What's that? Nobody can say. Leaving ourselves open to that. So the practices that are a lot of mental practice sometimes that we might have, and this is not, I really don't want to have any mistakes made that I'm sort of raising up Shikantasa and putting down some other practices.

[41:46]

I'm offering Shikantasa, which is just sitting, this practice of just making effort without trying to get anything. And how come? Because just like the mosquito, there is, you can't. It's ungraspable. You can't get anything because you and I, you and all of us, each one of us, are the Marian objects which partake of the Buddha body. So what are we supposed to get for us? We already have everything. that's the teaching, without grasping anything or attaining anything, we already partake of the Buddha body. So then our practice is to open to that. And when we catch ourselves trying to get something from our practice, trying to get something meaning

[42:53]

And that's why it takes a kind of intimate questioning. What is it I'm trying to get? And can we accept that, accept our life, accept that longing? We don't have to beat ourselves up, but know this is about longing or feeling inadequate, unsatisfied, not content. And can we turn that and sit in the middle of that, allowing us to feel all that without pushing it away, just like I saw in instruction, without pushing it away or trying to grab onto something else that's going to make it go away. So I think the practices of counting and following the breath are venerable practices.

[43:54]

And they can be practiced in the spirit. I think Suzukiro, she says, Hinayana practices with Mahayana mind. I don't really like to use the word Hinayana, but kind of old school practices, venerable practices that are passed down, but with the mind of not trying to get anything out of it, where the breath pervades the entire body bones, flesh and bones, rather than a mental activity that's trying to create conditions where we will then be in an altered state. And then we'll be special. And then we won't hurt so much. Or we'll feel finally loved. Okay, but those states are really, they have a beginning, a middle, and an end.

[45:05]

They're like vacations, and then we come back, and now what? And then we might even be angry that we've had to come back out of that and deal with all this painful stuff. I want to go back there, wherever there is, you know. And then we're angry at other people. Like a friend of mine who would go and sit Sashin. And then when Sashin was over, he was angry because he wasn't in this state of kind of bliss anymore. And he'd be very mean to his wife and kids. And she finally said, would you please stop sitting Sashin? Because you just become ornery and not very nice to live with. So why are you doing this practice? So I think these are pitfalls. These are the kind of pitfalls. So how can we practice today?

[46:13]

The zazen I speak of is not learning meditation. It's the Dharma gate of repose and bliss. And I know people are saying, please give me a break. There is no repose and bliss here. I'm dying, and I wish she'd end her talk so I could move. I know, I know all that. So what is repose and bliss? You know, this ability to, as Uchuyama Roshi says, leave everything to that, just everything. Aim at your body, mind, your flesh and bones. Just making an effort, having your breath, fill the body and the bones and the marrow and relax right there. Leave everything to that. That's a kind of, and relax deeply, deeply and fully. Not crumple over and fall asleep, but a deep relaxation and open to what?

[47:18]

What? not even the 10,000 sages know. So noticing our tension and our tension we carry in our body, can we allow ourselves to be with that, be with that in such a way that we can relax even around it without wanting it, without The gaining idea of, I hate you. I hate your tension. I want you to go away. More, this is inconceivable. I don't know what it is. Nobody knows. And I'll open to it, breathe in it, with it, and leave everything to that. So we have a day to practice how wonderful.

[48:26]

And I'd like to just mention for your healthy sitting posture, body, mind taken care of, it's a good idea to switch your legs. Just like with any yoga posture, if you do one side only, like Trikonasana to the right only for about 30 years, it's not so supportive of full body, you know, awareness and care. So often the leg that we're not used to, or that whole side, is really, you can't imagine, but slowly, slowly, if you try switching your legs, I think, you know, over time, the Less use side wakes up, actually. Thank you very much. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center.

[49:31]

Our programs are made possible by the donations we receive. Please help us to continue to realize and actualize the practice of giving by offering your financial support. For more information, visit sfzc.org and click giving. May we fully enjoy the Dharma.

[49:53]

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